First Glider, but now a two seater...

[tstock]

I've spent the last year or so keeping an eye out for a first
glider... something like a 1-34, etc. No rush you know, just looking.

But then I started taking my 9yr old daughter flying with me, and she
absolutely LOVES it! She has been asking me every day when we are
going up in the glider again.. and my wife caught wind of this and
said "Well, you are going to be 40 this year. Why don't you spend our
tax return on a glider so you can get Katie into flying?"

So this has thrown me one heck of a curve ball. I would love to
encourage her to take up flying by having her fly with me often. I
could see where this could have a big effect on the rest of her
life...

So, if I were looking for a good safe glider, able to be disassembled
by 2 or 3 people without breaking out backs in the process, would it
exist for $10K USD? $13K? I don't have $20K to spend unfortunately.

I've seen L13's for as low as $6K USD, but they are all currently
grounded, and those wings look heavy! But then, I could leave it tied
down at the gliderport which would be nice.


Any advice appreciated, thanks in advance.

Tom

[Tim Taylor]

On Jan 10, 9:13*am, tstock > wrote:
> I've spent the last year or so keeping an eye out for a first
> glider... something like a 1-34, etc. *No rush you know, just looking.
>
> But then I started taking my 9yr old daughter flying with me, and she
> absolutely LOVES it! *She has been asking me every day when we are
> going up in the glider again.. *and my wife caught wind of this and
> said "Well, you are going to be 40 this year. *Why don't you spend our
> tax return on a glider so you can get Katie into flying?"
>
> So this has thrown me one heck of a curve ball. *I would love to
> encourage her to take up flying by having her fly with me often. *I
> could see where this could have a big effect on the rest of her
> life...
>
> So, if I were looking for a good safe glider, able to be disassembled
> by 2 or 3 people without breaking out backs in the process, would it
> exist for $10K USD? $13K? *I don't have $20K to spend unfortunately.
>
> I've seen L13's for as low as $6K USD, but they are all currently
> grounded, and those wings look heavy! *But then, I could leave it tied
> down at the gliderport which would be nice.
>
> Any advice appreciated, thanks in advance.
>
> Tom

Buy a good single place that can go cross country and join a club with
a two place. You will get bored way too fast in anything under $50K
in a two place.

[Tony[_5_]]

On Jan 10, 10:13*am, tstock > wrote:
> I've spent the last year or so keeping an eye out for a first
> glider... something like a 1-34, etc. *No rush you know, just looking.
>
> But then I started taking my 9yr old daughter flying with me, and she
> absolutely LOVES it! *She has been asking me every day when we are
> going up in the glider again.. *and my wife caught wind of this and
> said "Well, you are going to be 40 this year. *Why don't you spend our
> tax return on a glider so you can get Katie into flying?"
>
> So this has thrown me one heck of a curve ball. *I would love to
> encourage her to take up flying by having her fly with me often. *I
> could see where this could have a big effect on the rest of her
> life...
>
> So, if I were looking for a good safe glider, able to be disassembled
> by 2 or 3 people without breaking out backs in the process, would it
> exist for $10K USD? $13K? *I don't have $20K to spend unfortunately.
>
> I've seen L13's for as low as $6K USD, but they are all currently
> grounded, and those wings look heavy! *But then, I could leave it tied
> down at the gliderport which would be nice.
>
> Any advice appreciated, thanks in advance.
>
> Tom

The only two seaters you are going to find for that kind of money will
be grounded Blaniks, 2-33/22's, maybe a Ka-7. I see you live in St.
Pete, a wood wing probably isn't the best idea in the wet climate down
there. If I were you I'd look into your local club, http://www.tbss.us/,
they have a 2-32 and a Grob 103, plus 3 grounded L-13's. Perhaps you
already have.

[tstock]

Why would I get bored in a two seater under 50K? Even the old
Blanik's offer better performance than say, a 1-26, 1-23, etc, and
people don't seem to get bored with those?

Thanks

[tstock]

Hmmm I see what you guys are saying there just isn't much to choose
from. A Grob is the only thing I can find under $30K.

[Tim Taylor]

On Jan 10, 9:58*am, tstock > wrote:
> Why would I get bored in a two seater under 50K? *Even the old
> Blanik's offer better performance than say, a 1-26, 1-23, etc, and
> people don't seem to get bored with those?
>
> Thanks

To go xc you must be willing to derig and trailer them home. Try
derigging any of the two places you can afford and soon you will be
staying within glide of your local airport. If you don't go xc you
will soon quit flying gliders much because twirly birds get bored
quickly. Get a nice trailer with a glass glider in it (sorry Tony)
for $15 to $20K. Get a couple of partners and make it cheaper and
join the local club and fly their two places.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jan 10, 8:58*am, tstock > wrote:
> Why would I get bored in a two seater under 50K? *Even the old
> Blanik's offer better performance than say, a 1-26, 1-23, etc, and
> people don't seem to get bored with those?
>
> Thanks

Have you been on many XC flights in a L13? Tried to find anybody to
help you derig one after a landout?

You may need to have a chat with you wife about the actual cost of
sailplanes. Whether you have this chat before or after you buy one is
up to you.

Most owners are definitely not bored with an old Blaniks. They get to
spend hours reading ADs and worrying about spar fatigue issues and if
their gliders are ever goign to fly again. So if you want that kind of
non-boredom I suspect many owners will be interested in selling you
their L13 at a "great" price.

It is hard to offer advice on first gliders without a real knowledge
of what you want to do. There are no two seat gliders going for <$20k
that would have even the slightest possible interest as a two seat
glider for me. If you just want to do the occasional local flight and
take a family member along then joining a club or finding an FBO and
using their club two seaters would seem lot easier than buying your
own. But if you do want to buy one then I don't see much likely to be
available except for say older Schweizer gliders and they are
definitely not something that anybody is goign to be interested in
rigging frequently. And prices of say SGS 2-32 are kept high because
of their popularity with some FBOs etc.

Should your interest be in XC - There are lots of great XC two seaters
that either in club/FBO or private hands get used by pilots to take
friends XC flying or more importantly to help mentoring/training new
XC pilots. To really be effective there, i.e. show people what is
really possible and have the most fun and advance the fastest I think
you are into Duo Discus or DG-1000 class two seaters (or the older rev
before these e.g. Janus or DG-500) and those get a lot more affordable
if considered for clubs and syndicates.

BTW the best way to buy a great ~$20k XC single seater is find one or
two partners and find a nice condition ASW-24, Discus, LS-4, DG-300,
etc. That will get you in the 40:1 L/D range, much easier rigging,
auto control hookups, composite construction with no aluminum or
fabric to worry about. And in that price range you also have a hope of
a nice trailer.

Darryl

[jsbrake[_2_]]

If you're really keen on owning, how about the IAR IS-28 Lark?
http://www.sailplanedirectory.com/PlaneDetails.cfm?planeID=370

You might be able to pick one up at a decent price: I believe there's
something about life-limit (30 yrs?) that changes it's flying category
and hence lowers it's value. Sorry, but I don't know much else about
that situation (and I think it's different between Canada and U.S.).
It's a decent flier and handles well (but I've only done about 20
flights in one, mostly 1/2 hour intros).

Try looking for a club, though... there should be a much better 2-
seater for rent than you could afford to buy, and then get joy out of
a nice single.

My personal experience is that it's much cheaper to rent the club
ships than it is to own one. Owning gives you more freedom; I don't
share very well.

-John

[Tony[_5_]]

> To go xc you must be willing to derig and trailer them home. *Try
> derigging any of the two places you can afford and soon you will be
> staying within glide of your local airport. *If you don't go xc you
> will soon quit flying gliders much because twirly birds get bored
> quickly. *Get a nice trailer with a glass glider in it (sorry Tony)
> for $15 to $20K. *Get a couple of partners and make it cheaper and
> join the local club and fly their two places.

don't be. odds are my next glider will be club class glass in the
15-20 range. probably with a partner or two. Unless of course the SSA
decides to expand the club class handicaps. Then I'll have to
reconsider. Perhaps I'll just get a 1-26 then.

[Tony[_5_]]

On Jan 10, 11:39*am, jsbrake > wrote:
> If you're really keen on owning, how about the IAR IS-28 Lark?http://www.sailplanedirectory.com/PlaneDetails.cfm?planeID=370
>
> You might be able to pick one up at a decent price: I believe there's
> something about life-limit (30 yrs?) that changes it's flying category
> and hence lowers it's value. *Sorry, but I don't know much else about
> that situation (and I think it's different between Canada and U.S.).
> It's a decent flier and handles well (but I've only done about 20
> flights in one, mostly 1/2 hour intros).
>
> Try looking for a club, though... *there should be a much better 2-
> seater for rent than you could afford to buy, and then get joy out of
> a nice single.
>
> My personal experience is that it's much cheaper to rent the club
> ships than it is to own one. *Owning gives you more freedom; I don't
> share very well.
>
> -John

I think the first of the IS-28 Larks start to expire in 2012. I've
seen nothing on a life extension program for them. I've got a couple
cross country flights in one and both those ended in land outs. I had
a blast on the flights but my back may never be the same :) One
doctor friend flew in a contest in one and had his hernia operated on
when he got home. Matt Michael and I were able to rig it with just
the two of us and a combination of sawhorses and brute force.

[tstock]

Thanks guys for taking the time to reply. That pretty much answers my
question.

[BruceGreeff]

> Have you been on many XC flights in a L13? Tried to find anybody to
> help you derig one after a landout?
>
I have - twice. Never - ever again!

> You may need to have a chat with you wife about the actual cost of
> sailplanes. Whether you have this chat before or after you buy one is
> up to you.

<Snip>

> BTW the best way to buy a great ~$20k XC single seater is find one or
> two partners and find a nice condition ASW-24, Discus, LS-4, DG-300,
> etc. That will get you in the 40:1 L/D range, much easier rigging,
> auto control hookups, composite construction with no aluminum or
> fabric to worry about. And in that price range you also have a hope of
> a nice trailer.
>
> Darryl
Amen to that- and hopefully my now 16 year old daughter will soon be
enjoying flying with me. The question is - do I let her loose in the
Cirrus as a first glider, or the Kestrel... Pros and cons both sides.

A club with a reasonable 2 seater is the best thing to do with the
progeny. Mine both have many launches in all sorts. Both seem to prefer
the Grob twin astir for some reason. And I am happy to fly them around
in one. So everyone is happy - and the skills get honed in different ways.

--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771 & Std Cirrus #57

[Paul Tribe]

At 19:31 10 January 2011, BruceGreeff wrote:
>
>
>> Have you been on many XC flights in a L13? Tried to find
anybody to
>> help you derig one after a landout?
>>
>I have - twice. Never - ever again!
>
>> You may need to have a chat with you wife about the actual
cost of
>> sailplanes. Whether you have this chat before or after you
buy one is
>> up to you.
>
>
>
>> BTW the best way to buy a great ~$20k XC single seater is
find one or
>> two partners and find a nice condition ASW-24, Discus, LS-4,
DG-300,
>> etc. That will get you in the 40:1 L/D range, much easier
rigging,
>> auto control hookups, composite construction with no
aluminum or
>> fabric to worry about. And in that price range you also have
a hope of
>> a nice trailer.
>>
>> Darryl
>Amen to that- and hopefully my now 16 year old daughter will
soon be
>enjoying flying with me. The question is - do I let her loose in
the
>Cirrus as a first glider, or the Kestrel... Pros and cons both
sides.
>
>A club with a reasonable 2 seater is the best thing to do with
the
>progeny. Mine both have many launches in all sorts. Both seem
to prefer
>the Grob twin astir for some reason. And I am happy to fly
them around
>in one. So everyone is happy - and the skills get honed in
different ways.
>
>--
>Bruce Greeff
>T59D #1771 & Std Cirrus #57
>

Just to throw in a curve-ball:

As much as I'm sure that you and your wife love your daughter
and want to do the best by her, don't forget that she's a child.
If there's one thing that you can count on in a child, it's being
fickle. She may want to fly a few times and then suddenly
decide that she doesn't like it any more...

I'd say look after yourself for now and join a club where you can
fly 2-seaters with your daughter. If she sticks with it, then you
can help finance her training and cross-country / competition
ambitions when she gets a little older.

In my experience as a parent (and formerly a child!) interests
change regularly and rapidly - it's all part of growing up.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Jan 10, 10:53*am, Tony > wrote:
> On Jan 10, 11:39*am, jsbrake > wrote:
>
>
>
> > If you're really keen on owning, how about the IAR IS-28 Lark?http://www.sailplanedirectory.com/PlaneDetails.cfm?planeID=370
>
> > You might be able to pick one up at a decent price: I believe there's
> > something about life-limit (30 yrs?) that changes it's flying category
> > and hence lowers it's value. *Sorry, but I don't know much else about
> > that situation (and I think it's different between Canada and U.S.).
> > It's a decent flier and handles well (but I've only done about 20
> > flights in one, mostly 1/2 hour intros).
>
> > Try looking for a club, though... *there should be a much better 2-
> > seater for rent than you could afford to buy, and then get joy out of
> > a nice single.
>
> > My personal experience is that it's much cheaper to rent the club
> > ships than it is to own one. *Owning gives you more freedom; I don't
> > share very well.
>
> > -John
>
> I think the first of the IS-28 Larks start to expire in 2012. *I've
> seen nothing on a life extension program for them. *I've got a couple
> cross country flights in one and both those ended in land outs. *I had
> a blast on the flights but my back may never be the same :) *One
> doctor friend flew in a contest in one and had his hernia operated on
> when he got home. *Matt Michael and I were able to rig it with just
> the two of us and a combination of sawhorses and brute force.

I suspect that the 5-year special inspection will be repeated. The
bulk of the US based IS-28B2's will face this in 2013 and 2014.

There have been some reasonably priced Larks for sale in Europe, some
built as late as 1994.

Rigging aids compulsory.

Frank Whiteley

[Jim Beckman[_2_]]

At 12:48 12 January 2011, Paul Tribe wrote:
>
>As much as I'm sure that you and your wife love your daughter
>and want to do the best by her, don't forget that she's a child.
>If there's one thing that you can count on in a child, it's being
>fickle. She may want to fly a few times and then suddenly
>decide that she doesn't like it any more...

And at 16, it wouldn't be surprising if her life suddenly starts to
revolved around boys. OTOH, find a glider club with some cute 16 to 18
year old boys in it, and her interest may continue.

Jim Beckman