Possible remote thermal finder?

[bildan]

http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/onepercent/2011/01/telephoto-lens-spots-clear-air.html

[John Cochrane[_2_]]

On Jan 21, 2:04*pm, bildan > wrote:
> http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/onepercent/2011/01/telephoto-lens-s...

Yes! It's always struck me that a little signal processing on the
shimmer you see in telephoto lenses might work to show thermals.
A bit of signal processing would also show birds, gliders, cornstalks,
cu development, and other stuff that the naked eye tends to miss.
Darn day job...

John Cochrane

[Jim Logajan]

bildan > wrote:
> http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/onepercent/2011/01/telephoto-lens-spo
> ts-clear-air.html

Crap - they almost stole my idea! ;-)

Seriously though, I had been thinking of using a normal video camera with
changing focus to check for dust sparkle at different ranges and do frame
comparisons. Take two (or more) snapshots at each focus range. Subtract out
image from previous focus range (trying to eliminate the roughly constant
out of focus "blur" of the background) to leave only spots in the new focus
range that are likely to be dust particles. Do this at least twice, waiting
some time T between frames. Use a heuristic to pair up pixels that appear
to represent the same particle in both frames but have moved. Compute speed
of movement of particles based on focus range, time T, and subtended arc
the particles appear to have moved. You now have an estimate for wind
speeds and directions normal to your view line at that distance.

The above doesn't appear to be what Boeing has in mind; they appear to be
using distortions of the distant background itself.

[bildan]

On Jan 21, 4:36*pm, Jim Logajan > wrote:
> bildan > wrote:
> >http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/onepercent/2011/01/telephoto-lens-spo
> > ts-clear-air.html
>
> Crap - they almost stole my idea! ;-)
>
> Seriously though, I had been thinking of using a normal video camera with
> changing focus to check for dust sparkle at different ranges and do frame
> comparisons. Take two (or more) snapshots at each focus range. Subtract out
> image from previous focus range (trying to eliminate the roughly constant
> out of focus "blur" of the background) to leave only spots in the new focus
> range that are likely to be dust particles. Do this at least twice, waiting
> some time T between frames. Use a heuristic to pair up pixels that appear
> to represent the same particle in both frames but have moved. Compute speed
> of movement of particles based on focus range, time T, and subtended arc
> the particles appear to have moved. You now have an estimate for wind
> speeds and directions normal to your view line at that distance.
>
> The above doesn't appear to be what Boeing has in mind; they appear to be
> using distortions of the distant background itself.

My impression,(could be wrong) is that they are using a sharp horizon
line to look for distortions due to air density variations. If so,
that shouldn't be a problem in the clearer air of the west since we
fly in daylight hours below cloudbase. It appears to use only a
standard high resolution camera and some heavy image processing
software.

[mpcehand]

On Jan 21, 6:16*pm, John Cochrane >
wrote:
> On Jan 21, 2:04*pm, bildan > wrote:
>
> >http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/onepercent/2011/01/telephoto-lens-s...
>
> Yes! It's always struck me that a little signal processing on the
> shimmer you see in telephoto lenses might work to show thermals.
> A bit of signal processing would also show birds, gliders, cornstalks,
> cu development, and other stuff that the naked eye tends to miss.
> Darn day job...
>
> John Cochrane

The idea of a remote thermal finder is already being worked on by a
very distinguished scientist who lives and fly's @ the best soaring
center on the planet earth.
My money is on him.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 1/21/2011 5:53 PM, mpcehand wrote:
> On Jan 21, 6:16 pm, John >
> wrote:
>> On Jan 21, 2:04 pm, > wrote:
>>
>>> http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/onepercent/2011/01/telephoto-lens-s...
>>
>> Yes! It's always struck me that a little signal processing on the
>> shimmer you see in telephoto lenses might work to show thermals.
>> A bit of signal processing would also show birds, gliders, cornstalks,
>> cu development, and other stuff that the naked eye tends to miss.
>> Darn day job...
>>
>> John Cochrane
>
> The idea of a remote thermal finder is already being worked on by a
> very distinguished scientist who lives and fly's @ the best soaring
> center on the planet earth.
> My money is on him.

Pilots in 16 different clubs around the world are now trying to think
who in their club could be working on a remote thermal sensor.

I'm expecting more discussion about which soaring center you could mean,
than about the remote thermal finder.

Personally, my soaring would improve if I could reliably find the
thermal I just flew through.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[Walt Connelly]

Pilots in 16 different clubs around the world are now trying to think
who in their club could be working on a remote thermal sensor.

I'm expecting more discussion about which soaring center you could mean,
than about the remote thermal finder.

Personally, my soaring would improve if I could reliably find the
thermal I just flew through.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)[/QUOTE]

I'm with you Eric, it was there three seconds ago.

Walt Connelly

[Andy[_1_]]

On Jan 21, 11:54*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:

> Pilots in 16 different clubs around the world are now trying to think
> who in their club could be working on a remote thermal sensor.


Not this one. Even if you didn't know the poster's name and where he
flies you could make a good guess at his site location from reviewing
the posting history.

Don't know how many other counties he has flown in though or how many
sites he has flown at.

Andy

[Bruno[_2_]]

> Personally, my soaring would improve if I could reliably find the
> thermal I just flew through.
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

Eric,
Thanks so much for the laugh out loud belly laugh you just caused with
that statement. :) That comment hits close to home as well. Still
chuckling as I write this.

Bruno - B4

[Tony[_5_]]

wait I thought thats why everyone is getting PowerFLARMs?

[Alan[_6_]]

In article > mpcehand > writes:
>On Jan 21, 6:16=A0pm, John Cochrane >
>wrote:
>> On Jan 21, 2:04=A0pm, bildan > wrote:
>>
>> >http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/onepercent/2011/01/telephoto-lens-s...
>>
>> Yes! It's always struck me that a little signal processing on the
>> shimmer you see in telephoto lenses might work to show thermals.
>> A bit of signal processing would also show birds, gliders, cornstalks,
>> cu development, and other stuff that the naked eye tends to miss.
>> Darn day job...
>>
>> John Cochrane


Hmmm. I had a different idea of how a remote thermal finder might be made,
but no time to work on it, as it would take a bunch of effort to learn the
details of actual implementation to try it.


>The idea of a remote thermal finder is already being worked on by a
>very distinguished scientist who lives and fly's @ the best soaring
>center on the planet earth.
>My money is on him.


Why would he be the one to do it? If the soaring is so good there, he
probably has no trouble finding lift.

My money would be on someone who flys in a marginal area, who needs
a thermal finder.

Alan

[bildan]

On Jan 23, 12:00*am, (Alan) wrote:
> In article > mpcehand > writes:
>
> >On Jan 21, 6:16=A0pm, John Cochrane >
> >wrote:
> >> On Jan 21, 2:04=A0pm, bildan > wrote:
>
> >> >http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/onepercent/2011/01/telephoto-lens-s....
>
> >> Yes! It's always struck me that a little signal processing on the
> >> shimmer you see in telephoto lenses might work to show thermals.
> >> A bit of signal processing would also show birds, gliders, cornstalks,
> >> cu development, and other stuff that the naked eye tends to miss.
> >> Darn day job...
>
> >> John Cochrane
>
> * Hmmm. *I had a different idea of how a remote thermal finder might be made,
> but no time to work on it, as it would take a bunch of effort to learn the
> details of actual implementation to try it.
>
> >The idea of a remote thermal finder is already being worked on by a
> >very distinguished scientist who lives and fly's @ the best soaring
> >center on the planet earth.
> >My money is on him.
>
> * Why would he be the one to do it? *If the soaring is so good there, he
> probably has no trouble finding lift.
>
> * My money would be on someone who flys in a marginal area, who needs
> a thermal finder.
>
> * * * * Alan

My guess (possibly wrong) is the biggest value of a remote thermal
detector, at least at first, will be sort of a short-range "thermal
centering aid". Knowing there is strong core 300 meters away is
"highly actionable" data. Cruising along while searching a 1 km wide
path will eliminate passing close by a strong thermal without knowing
about it. Knowing there is a thermal 10 km away is interesting but
it's a good bet it will dissipate before you can get there and chasing
after it may not be the best strategy.

[John Cochrane[_2_]]

> > * * * * Alan
>
> My guess (possibly wrong) is the biggest value of a remote thermal
> detector, at least at first, will be sort of a short-range "thermal
> centering aid". *Knowing there is strong core 300 meters away is
> "highly actionable" data. * Cruising along while searching a 1 km wide
> path will eliminate passing close by a strong thermal without knowing
> about it. *Knowing there is a thermal 10 km away is interesting but
> it's a good bet it will dissipate before you can get there and chasing
> after it may not be the best strategy.

The next biggest value will be that even 1 km range thermal detectors
will eliminate the start gate roulette, gaggling and leeching in
contests. Why go through all that when you can reliably find the
thermals on your own?

That is, after the first guy to bring one destroys the competition at
the world championships! ..

In addition to camera signal processing to see light refraction, same
to see birds/gliders, lidar to see dust concentration, doppler lidar
to see dust movements, active or passive (listen to weather/FAA) radar
to see bugs, birds, and gliders, infrared to see moisture
concentration, infra red to see heat, would all work. Most of these
are used now in ground-based or large aircraft form for various other
purposes -- doppler lidar to study storms pollution plumes and wind
profilers, bird/bug radar to study former, FLIR in the military,
They need only a bit of miniaturization. Lots of winter projects for
the technically inclined!

More speculation on thermal detectors:

http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john.cochrane/research/Papers/thermal_detectors.mht
http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john.cochrane/research/Papers/barnaby.html

John Cochrane