Most numerous sailplane type and model in the world?

[[email protected]]

Does anyone know what active type, make and model of sailplane is the
most numerous in the world and in the USA?

Bill Snead

[Markus Graeber]

On Feb 3, 9:42*pm, " > wrote:
> Does anyone know what active type, make and model of sailplane is the
> most numerous in the world and in the USA?
>
> Bill Snead

Non-military the Grunau Baby is the most build, with maybe over 5000
build. The LET L-13 Blanik should be around 2700, the most build glass
ship should be the LS 4 with some 1050 build, the most build glider
still in production must be the Schempp-Hirth Discus with supposedly
over 850 build to date. The Discus CS, identical to the Discus B, is
still in production for SH in the Czech Republik.

Markus Graeber

[Tim[_2_]]

On Feb 3, 8:42*pm, " > wrote:
> Does anyone know what active type, make and model of sailplane is the
> most numerous in the world and in the USA?
>
> Bill Snead

A quick look at the N# registry (I know its an imperfect snapshot at
times) shows:

ASW-20 (all models) @135
ASW-27/29 @117
Std Libelle @108
Ventus @95
Discus @90
Ventus 2 @80
Std Citrrus @80

I was a bit shocked at the low numbers of some types of gliders here
in the U.S.

EY

[Jim Beckman[_2_]]

At 14:18 04 February 2011, Tim wrote:
>> Bill Snead
>
>A quick look at the N# registry (I know its an imperfect snapshot at
>times) shows:
>
>ASW-20 (all models) @135
>ASW-27/29 @117
>Std Libelle @108
>Ventus @95
>Discus @90
>Ventus 2 @80
>Std Citrrus @80
>
>I was a bit shocked at the low numbers of some types of gliders here
>in the U.S.

C'mon, guys, you're overlooking the obvious. From the same source, all
models of the 1-26:

521

Of course, it's a snailplane, not a sailplane, but still . . .

Jim Beckman

[Terry Walsh]

At 02:42 04 February 2011, wrote:
>Does anyone know what active type, make and model of sailplane is the
>most numerous in the world and in the USA?
>
>Bill Snead
>

I don't know about other types but according to Wikapedia Grob produced a
total of 1791 G102 Astirs (Thats all variants CS, 77, Club, II and III

Terry Walsh

[Tim[_2_]]

On Feb 4, 9:10*am, Jim Beckman > wrote:
> At 14:18 04 February 2011, Tim wrote:
>
> >> Bill Snead
>
> >A quick look at the N# registry (I know its an imperfect snapshot at
> >times) shows:
>
> >ASW-20 (all models) @135
> >ASW-27/29 @117
> >Std Libelle @108
> >Ventus @95
> >Discus @90
> >Ventus 2 @80
> >Std Citrrus @80
>
> >I was a bit shocked at the low numbers of some types of gliders here
> >in the U.S.
>
> C'mon, guys, you're overlooking the obvious. *From the same source, all
> models of the 1-26:
>
> 521
>
> Of course, it's a snailplane, not a sailplane, but still . . .
>
> Jim Beckman

Mea Culpa. I LOVE the 1-26 as a sailplane. However, I made a biased
assumption...
Tim EY

[vontresc]

On Feb 4, 10:03*am, Terry Walsh > wrote:
> At 02:42 04 February 2011, wrote:
>
> >Does anyone know what active type, make and model of sailplane is the
> >most numerous in the world and in the USA?
>
> >Bill Snead
>
> I don't know about other types but according to Wikapedia Grob produced a
> total of 1791 G102 Astirs (Thats all variants CS, 77, Club, II and III
>
> Terry Walsh

Also don't forget the 1400 or so Ka-6s from Schleicher

Peter

[[email protected]]

On Feb 4, 1:03*pm, vontresc > wrote:
> On Feb 4, 10:03*am, Terry Walsh > wrote:
>
> > At 02:42 04 February 2011, wrote:
>
> > >Does anyone know what active type, make and model of sailplane is the
> > >most numerous in the world and in the USA?
>
> > >Bill Snead
>
> > I don't know about other types but according to Wikapedia Grob produced a
> > total of 1791 G102 Astirs (Thats all variants CS, 77, Club, II and III
>
> > Terry Walsh
>
> Also don't forget the 1400 or so Ka-6s from Schleicher
>
> Peter


In my travels, I have heard many people comment that the LS-4 should
have been world single design class. From the above it appears that
the Discus B - CS might be a good choice now. What do you think?

Bill Snead

[Markus Graeber]

On Feb 4, 8:17*pm, " > wrote:
> On Feb 4, 1:03*pm, vontresc > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 4, 10:03*am, Terry Walsh > wrote:
>
> > > At 02:42 04 February 2011, wrote:
>
> > > >Does anyone know what active type, make and model of sailplane is the
> > > >most numerous in the world and in the USA?
>
> > > >Bill Snead
>
> > > I don't know about other types but according to Wikapedia Grob produced a
> > > total of 1791 G102 Astirs (Thats all variants CS, 77, Club, II and III
>
> > > Terry Walsh
>
> > Also don't forget the 1400 or so Ka-6s from Schleicher
>
> > Peter
>
> In my travels, I have heard many people comment that the LS-4 should
> have been world single design class. *From the above it appears that
> the Discus B - CS might be a good choice now. What do you think?
>
> Bill Snead

If you had to pick one that is still in production it would probably
be the one, easy to fly too, used in quite a few clubs in Europe as a
solo glider after training on 2 place glass. The LS-4 is probably even
more popular with Euro clubs & schools as the next step up after going
solo, both are great gliders for general club use and would have made
excellent and very attractive one class ships if you ask me... Nice
handling, 40.5:1 (43:1 for the Discus), good performance at speed,
what else do you want? But is was not to be...

Markus Graeber

[RRK]

On Feb 3, 10:19*pm, Markus Graeber > wrote:
> On Feb 3, 9:42*pm, " > wrote:
>
> > Does anyone know what active type, make and model of sailplane is the
> > most numerous in the world and in the USA?
>
> > Bill Snead
>
> Non-military the Grunau Baby is the most build, with maybe over 5000
> build. The LET L-13 Blanik should be around 2700, the most build glass
> ship should be the LS 4 with some 1050 build, the most build glider
> still in production must be the Schempp-Hirth Discus with supposedly
> over 850 build to date. The Discus CS, identical to the Discus B, is
> still in production for SH in the Czech Republik.
>
> Markus Graeber

SZD 48 Jantar St..........with 677 build

[Whiskey Delta]

On Feb 4, 8:17*pm, " > wrote:
>
>
> In my travels, I have heard many people comment that the LS-4 should
> have been world single design class. *From the above it appears that
> the Discus B - CS might be a good choice now. What do you think?
>
> Bill Snead

I would still go with the LS4 only because more folks would fit in it
than in the Discus. Roomier.

WD

[Nigel Pocock[_2_]]

In the two seaters it must be the ASK13 with 700+.
After Schleicher ceased production, the sailplane has been license-built
by Jubi GmbH of Oerlinghausen, Germany. ATC .

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 18:55:40 -0800, RRK wrote:

> On Feb 3, 10:19Â*pm, Markus Graeber > wrote:
>> On Feb 3, 9:42Â*pm, " > wrote:
>>
>> > Does anyone know what active type, make and model of sailplane is the
>> > most numerous in the world and in the USA?
>>
>> > Bill Snead
>>
>> Non-military the Grunau Baby is the most build, with maybe over 5000
>> build. The LET L-13 Blanik should be around 2700, the most build glass
>> ship should be the LS 4 with some 1050 build, the most build glider
>> still in production must be the Schempp-Hirth Discus with supposedly
>> over 850 build to date. The Discus CS, identical to the Discus B, is
>> still in production for SH in the Czech Republik.
>>
>> Markus Graeber
>
> SZD 48 Jantar St..........with 677 build
>
Around 1000 ASW-20s were built, including B and C models.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[[email protected]]

On Feb 5, 7:20*am, Martin Gregorie >
wrote:
> On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 18:55:40 -0800, RRK wrote:
> > On Feb 3, 10:19*pm, Markus Graeber > wrote:
> >> On Feb 3, 9:42*pm, " > wrote:
>
> >> > Does anyone know what active type, make and model of sailplane is the
> >> > most numerous in the world and in the USA?
>
> >> > Bill Snead
>
> >> Non-military the Grunau Baby is the most build, with maybe over 5000
> >> build. The LET L-13 Blanik should be around 2700, the most build glass
> >> ship should be the LS 4 with some 1050 build, the most build glider
> >> still in production must be the Schempp-Hirth Discus with supposedly
> >> over 850 build to date. The Discus CS, identical to the Discus B, is
> >> still in production for SH in the Czech Republik.
>
> >> Markus Graeber
>
> > SZD 48 Jantar St..........with 677 build
>
> Around 1000 ASW-20s were built, including B and C models.
>
> --
> martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> org * * * |- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Would it be possible that the owners of a numerous sailplane design
could move ahead one design racing without involvement of current
establishment (IGC, FAI, SSA, ect}. Could the owners form an
assoication and sponsor competitons in interesting locations (central
an western USA, Argentina, Australia, Slovakia) ?

Bill Snead

[Tim[_2_]]

On Feb 5, 8:54*am, " > wrote:
> On Feb 5, 7:20*am, Martin Gregorie >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 18:55:40 -0800, RRK wrote:
> > > On Feb 3, 10:19*pm, Markus Graeber > wrote:
> > >> On Feb 3, 9:42*pm, " > wrote:
>
> > >> > Does anyone know what active type, make and model of sailplane is the
> > >> > most numerous in the world and in the USA?
>
> > >> > Bill Snead
>
> > >> Non-military the Grunau Baby is the most build, with maybe over 5000
> > >> build. The LET L-13 Blanik should be around 2700, the most build glass
> > >> ship should be the LS 4 with some 1050 build, the most build glider
> > >> still in production must be the Schempp-Hirth Discus with supposedly
> > >> over 850 build to date. The Discus CS, identical to the Discus B, is
> > >> still in production for SH in the Czech Republik.
>
> > >> Markus Graeber
>
> > > SZD 48 Jantar St..........with 677 build
>
> > Around 1000 ASW-20s were built, including B and C models.
>
> > --
> > martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
> > gregorie. | Essex, UK
> > org * * * |- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Would it be possible that the owners of a numerous sailplane design
> could move ahead one design racing without *involvement of current
> establishment (IGC, FAI, SSA, ect}. *Could the owners form an
> assoication and sponsor competitons in interesting locations (central
> an western USA, Argentina, Australia, Slovakia) ?
>
> Bill Snead

Bill:

I've always thought this was a good idea to follow when discussing one
design racing. Maybe one could even pit the various manufacturers
against each other to be named the one design and in return they would
sponsor a racing series (either nationally or internationally). Tim EY

[Andreas Maurer]

On Sat, 5 Feb 2011 06:54:56 -0800 (PST), "
> wrote:


>Would it be possible that the owners of a numerous sailplane design
>could move ahead one design racing without involvement of current
>establishment (IGC, FAI, SSA, ect}. Could the owners form an
>assoication and sponsor competitons in interesting locations (central
>an western USA, Argentina, Australia, Slovakia) ?


Sure - the French have an ASK-13 competition, and the Germans had Duo
Discus competitions for at least 15 years... :)


Andreas

[Jamie Shore]

I would certainly participate in one design racing if the Discus or
the LS-4 was the design.

Jamie Shore

[Whiskey Delta]

On Feb 5, 8:36*pm, Jamie Shore > wrote:
> I would certainly participate in one design racing if the Discus or
> the LS-4 was the design.
>
> Jamie Shore

I would as well.

WD

[Tim Taylor]

On Feb 5, 7:17*pm, Whiskey Delta > wrote:
> On Feb 5, 8:36*pm, Jamie Shore > wrote:
>
> > I would certainly participate in one design racing if the Discus or
> > the LS-4 was the design.
>
> > Jamie Shore
>
> I would as well.
>
> WD

I think we tried to talk the IGC into using the LS-4 as the single
glider for the World Class. You can see how well that worked out;
there are nearly as many PW-5's around as LS-4's, Not! Logic is not
something that happens at IGC meetings, the herd mentality somehow
takes over and we now have seven classes. Next month I am sure they
will want to add 14M and 17M classes for those that have been left out
of the 13.5M and 20M classes. Yes, the LS-4 could have been the World
Class and there would have been no need for the Club class.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 2/5/2011 6:41 PM, Tim Taylor wrote:
> On Feb 5, 7:17 pm, Whiskey > wrote:
>> On Feb 5, 8:36 pm, Jamie > wrote:
>>
>>> I would certainly participate in one design racing if the Discus or
>>> the LS-4 was the design.
>>
>>> Jamie Shore
>>
>> I would as well.
>>
>> WD
>
> I think we tried to talk the IGC into using the LS-4 as the single
> glider for the World Class. You can see how well that worked out;
> there are nearly as many PW-5's around as LS-4's, Not! Logic is not
> something that happens at IGC meetings, the herd mentality somehow
> takes over and we now have seven classes. Next month I am sure they
> will want to add 14M and 17M classes for those that have been left out
> of the 13.5M and 20M classes. Yes, the LS-4 could have been the World
> Class and there would have been no need for the Club class.

Personally, I think a Club Class centered on the LS4 makes far more
sense than a World Class based on the LS4. There were many more the
gliders in the Club Class already existence than LS4's and they would be
much cheaper than a new LS4.

My fading recollection from being an SSA Director during the World Class
development is no way did the manufacturer want to let go of the still
very valuable LS4 design so that other companies could build it. I'm
sure they would have been delighted to be the only manufacturer for the
World Class, but the other companies would have been hugely upset.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[cernauta]

On Sat, 5 Feb 2011 18:41:27 -0800 (PST), Tim Taylor
> wrote:


>
>I think we tried to talk the IGC into using the LS-4 as the single
>glider for the World Class. You can see how well that worked out;
>there are nearly as many PW-5's around as LS-4's, Not! Logic is not
>something that happens at IGC meetings,

This argument is quite a bit unfair. I have been in IGC meetings as a
journalist or as a deputy delegate for my country.
Logic is at the center of all discussions, and there are always
advocates for the different opinions.
In the history of World Class creation, the deciding factor was that
the discussions concluded a "new design" would be necessary, to avoid
tying the class to a single manufacturer, allowing licensees and
home-biulders to build their own.

The class failed, despite academic studies which predicted the
production in thousands.

aldo cernezzi

[[email protected]]

On Feb 5, 9:04*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> On 2/5/2011 6:41 PM, Tim Taylor wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 5, 7:17 pm, Whiskey > *wrote:
> >> On Feb 5, 8:36 pm, Jamie > *wrote:
>
> >>> I would certainly participate in one design racing if the Discus or
> >>> the LS-4 was the design.
>
> >>> Jamie Shore
>
> >> I would as well.
>
> >> WD
>
> > I think we tried to talk the IGC into using the LS-4 as the single
> > glider for the World Class. *You can see how well that worked out;
> > there are nearly as many PW-5's around as LS-4's, Not! *Logic is not
> > something that happens at IGC meetings, the herd mentality somehow
> > takes over and we now have seven classes. *Next month I am sure they
> > will want to add 14M and 17M classes for those that have been left out
> > of the 13.5M and 20M classes. *Yes, the LS-4 could have been the World
> > Class and there would have been no need for the Club class.
>
> Personally, I think a Club Class centered on the LS4 makes far more
> sense than a World Class based on the LS4. There were many more the
> gliders in the Club Class already existence than LS4's and they would be
> much cheaper than a new LS4.
>
> My fading recollection from being an SSA Director during the World Class
> development is no way did the manufacturer want to let go of the still
> very valuable LS4 design so that other companies could build it. I'm
> sure they would have been delighted to be the only manufacturer for the
> World Class, but the other companies would have been hugely upset.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
> email me)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Are any of the owners of numerous glider types already organized? I
think there is a libelle organization? The LS-4 design is over 20
years old. Could the glider be legally copied?

Bill Snead
6W

[Tim[_2_]]

On Feb 5, 9:04*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> On 2/5/2011 6:41 PM, Tim Taylor wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 5, 7:17 pm, Whiskey > *wrote:
> >> On Feb 5, 8:36 pm, Jamie > *wrote:
>
> >>> I would certainly participate in one design racing if the Discus or
> >>> the LS-4 was the design.
>
> >>> Jamie Shore
>
> >> I would as well.
>
> >> WD
>
> > I think we tried to talk the IGC into using the LS-4 as the single
> > glider for the World Class. *You can see how well that worked out;
> > there are nearly as many PW-5's around as LS-4's, Not! *Logic is not
> > something that happens at IGC meetings, the herd mentality somehow
> > takes over and we now have seven classes. *Next month I am sure they
> > will want to add 14M and 17M classes for those that have been left out
> > of the 13.5M and 20M classes. *Yes, the LS-4 could have been the World
> > Class and there would have been no need for the Club class.
>
> Personally, I think a Club Class centered on the LS4 makes far more
> sense than a World Class based on the LS4. There were many more the
> gliders in the Club Class already existence than LS4's and they would be
> much cheaper than a new LS4.

Agreed. This is the argument for making the commitment to the Club
Class here in the US and then building up the class using the large
numbers of cheaper, high performance gliders that are out there but
not being actively raced (for whatever reasons).

> My fading recollection from being an SSA Director during the World Class
> development is no way did the manufacturer want to let go of the still
> very valuable LS4 design so that other companies could build it. I'm
> sure they would have been delighted to be the only manufacturer for the
> World Class, but the other companies would have been hugely upset.

Would it be so bad to actually form an organization/racing class that
pits the manufacturers against each other, with the winner getting the
market share of created by a new, vibrant racing class???

That is assuming the best idea is that NEW gliders of a certain type
racing a one design class is THE way forward to re-invigorating glider
racing. The Club Class already offers this basic idea but with already
depreciated gliders for better affordability (but with the
complication and uncertainty of handicapping)

The existing soaring organizations (IGC, national organizations) seem
to want to make everyone happy with their racing class decisions and
proposals when we know that this rarely leads to substantial change in
situations where real changes in thinking are needed.

Clearly, there are no manufacturers that believe or want to create a
new class that potentially takes market share away from their existing
product lines which are very pricey and are one barrier to widespread
racing participation.

However, I will posit that Schemp-Hirth, Schleicher, LS (current
holder of ls4 molds) could break out the molds and start producing
Discus, -24's, LS4's if the economic incentive was there to do so.

There is strong argument here that if we really want to re-invigorate
glider racing, we should junk the existing system and devise classes
and a racing concepts/systems that economically incentivize
particpation.

Look at F1 Motor Racing, it exists, but is just the "tip of the spear"
for auto racing - the best, the most technolgical, the msot expensive,
etc. There is a place for the best, and I can't wait to see the
Concordia fly and race.

BUT, most auto racing is done in various entry level classes that are
alive because they have continually adapted to changing values and
needs within auto racing. The soaring "powers that be" need to start
thinking and acting "strategically" when considering how to preserve,
let alone GROW our sport of glider racing.

Tim EY

> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
> email me)

[Mike Schumann]

On 2/6/2011 11:19 AM, Tim wrote:
> On Feb 5, 9:04 pm, Eric > wrote:
>> On 2/5/2011 6:41 PM, Tim Taylor wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Feb 5, 7:17 pm, Whiskey > wrote:
>>>> On Feb 5, 8:36 pm, Jamie > wrote:
>>
>>>>> I would certainly participate in one design racing if the Discus or
>>>>> the LS-4 was the design.
>>
>>>>> Jamie Shore
>>
>>>> I would as well.
>>
>>>> WD
>>
>>> I think we tried to talk the IGC into using the LS-4 as the single
>>> glider for the World Class. You can see how well that worked out;
>>> there are nearly as many PW-5's around as LS-4's, Not! Logic is not
>>> something that happens at IGC meetings, the herd mentality somehow
>>> takes over and we now have seven classes. Next month I am sure they
>>> will want to add 14M and 17M classes for those that have been left out
>>> of the 13.5M and 20M classes. Yes, the LS-4 could have been the World
>>> Class and there would have been no need for the Club class.
>>
>> Personally, I think a Club Class centered on the LS4 makes far more
>> sense than a World Class based on the LS4. There were many more the
>> gliders in the Club Class already existence than LS4's and they would be
>> much cheaper than a new LS4.
>
> Agreed. This is the argument for making the commitment to the Club
> Class here in the US and then building up the class using the large
> numbers of cheaper, high performance gliders that are out there but
> not being actively raced (for whatever reasons).
>
>> My fading recollection from being an SSA Director during the World Class
>> development is no way did the manufacturer want to let go of the still
>> very valuable LS4 design so that other companies could build it. I'm
>> sure they would have been delighted to be the only manufacturer for the
>> World Class, but the other companies would have been hugely upset.
>
> Would it be so bad to actually form an organization/racing class that
> pits the manufacturers against each other, with the winner getting the
> market share of created by a new, vibrant racing class???
>
> That is assuming the best idea is that NEW gliders of a certain type
> racing a one design class is THE way forward to re-invigorating glider
> racing. The Club Class already offers this basic idea but with already
> depreciated gliders for better affordability (but with the
> complication and uncertainty of handicapping)
>
> The existing soaring organizations (IGC, national organizations) seem
> to want to make everyone happy with their racing class decisions and
> proposals when we know that this rarely leads to substantial change in
> situations where real changes in thinking are needed.
>
> Clearly, there are no manufacturers that believe or want to create a
> new class that potentially takes market share away from their existing
> product lines which are very pricey and are one barrier to widespread
> racing participation.
>
> However, I will posit that Schemp-Hirth, Schleicher, LS (current
> holder of ls4 molds) could break out the molds and start producing
> Discus, -24's, LS4's if the economic incentive was there to do so.
>
> There is strong argument here that if we really want to re-invigorate
> glider racing, we should junk the existing system and devise classes
> and a racing concepts/systems that economically incentivize
> particpation.
>
> Look at F1 Motor Racing, it exists, but is just the "tip of the spear"
> for auto racing - the best, the most technolgical, the msot expensive,
> etc. There is a place for the best, and I can't wait to see the
> Concordia fly and race.
>
> BUT, most auto racing is done in various entry level classes that are
> alive because they have continually adapted to changing values and
> needs within auto racing. The soaring "powers that be" need to start
> thinking and acting "strategically" when considering how to preserve,
> let alone GROW our sport of glider racing.
>
> Tim EY
>
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
>> email me)
>

A more pressing problem for the soaring "powers to be" to address is to
come up with an economical 2 place glider to replace all of the grounded
L-13s.

--
Mike Schumann

[bildan]

On Feb 6, 11:37*am, Mike Schumann >
wrote:
> On 2/6/2011 11:19 AM, Tim wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 5, 9:04 pm, Eric > *wrote:
> >> On 2/5/2011 6:41 PM, Tim Taylor wrote:
>
> >>> On Feb 5, 7:17 pm, Whiskey > * *wrote:
> >>>> On Feb 5, 8:36 pm, Jamie > * *wrote:
>
> >>>>> I would certainly participate in one design racing if the Discus or
> >>>>> the LS-4 was the design.
>
> >>>>> Jamie Shore
>
> >>>> I would as well.
>
> >>>> WD
>
> >>> I think we tried to talk the IGC into using the LS-4 as the single
> >>> glider for the World Class. *You can see how well that worked out;
> >>> there are nearly as many PW-5's around as LS-4's, Not! *Logic is not
> >>> something that happens at IGC meetings, the herd mentality somehow
> >>> takes over and we now have seven classes. *Next month I am sure they
> >>> will want to add 14M and 17M classes for those that have been left out
> >>> of the 13.5M and 20M classes. *Yes, the LS-4 could have been the World
> >>> Class and there would have been no need for the Club class.
>
> >> Personally, I think a Club Class centered on the LS4 makes far more
> >> sense than a World Class based on the LS4. There were many more the
> >> gliders in the Club Class already existence than LS4's and they would be
> >> much cheaper than a new LS4.
>
> > Agreed. This is the argument for making the commitment to the Club
> > Class here in the US and then building up the class using the large
> > numbers of cheaper, high performance gliders that are out there but
> > not being actively raced (for whatever reasons).
>
> >> My fading recollection from being an SSA Director during the World Class
> >> development is no way did the manufacturer want to let go of the still
> >> very valuable LS4 design so that other companies could build it. I'm
> >> sure they would have been delighted to be the only manufacturer for the
> >> World Class, but the other companies would have been hugely upset.
>
> > Would it be so bad to actually form an organization/racing class that
> > pits the manufacturers against each other, with the winner getting the
> > market share of created by a new, vibrant racing class???
>
> > That is assuming the best idea is that NEW gliders of a certain type
> > racing a one design class is THE way forward to re-invigorating glider
> > racing. The Club Class already offers this basic idea but with already
> > depreciated gliders for better affordability (but with the
> > complication and uncertainty of handicapping)
>
> > The existing soaring organizations (IGC, national organizations) seem
> > to want to make everyone happy with their racing class decisions and
> > proposals when we know that this rarely leads to substantial change in
> > situations where real changes in thinking are needed.
>
> > Clearly, there are no manufacturers that believe or want to create a
> > new class that potentially takes market share away from their existing
> > product lines which are very pricey and are one barrier to widespread
> > racing participation.
>
> > However, I will posit that Schemp-Hirth, Schleicher, LS (current
> > holder of ls4 molds) could break out the molds and start producing
> > Discus, -24's, LS4's if the economic incentive was there to do so.
>
> > There is strong argument here that if we really want to re-invigorate
> > glider racing, we should junk the existing system and devise classes
> > and a racing concepts/systems that economically incentivize
> > particpation.
>
> > Look at F1 Motor Racing, it exists, but is just the "tip of the spear"
> > for auto racing - the best, the most technolgical, the msot expensive,
> > etc. There is a place for the best, and I can't wait to see the
> > Concordia fly and race.
>
> > BUT, most auto racing is done in various entry level classes that are
> > alive because they have continually adapted to changing values and
> > needs within auto racing. The soaring "powers that be" need to start
> > thinking and acting "strategically" when considering how to preserve,
> > let alone GROW our sport of glider racing.
>
> > Tim EY
>
> >> --
> >> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
> >> email me)
>
> A more pressing problem for the soaring "powers to be" to address is to
> come up with an economical 2 place glider to replace all of the grounded
> L-13s.
>
> --
> Mike Schumann

Mike, that's true - the training glider fleet is more important to the
overall sport. So, how would these 'powers', who are all unpaid
volunteers, accomplish this?

[Bob]

> A more pressing problem for the soaring "powers to be" to address is to
> come up with an economical 2 place glider to replace all of the grounded
> L-13s.
>
I wonder how "economical" the available glass trainers are in
comparison to the cost of the older trainers used in the US. What did
a new 2-33 cost?
A new L-13?

Bob

[Markus Graeber]

On Feb 6, 2:58*pm, Bob > wrote:
> > A more pressing problem for the soaring "powers to be" to address is to
> > come up with an economical 2 place glider to replace all of the grounded
> > L-13s.
>
> I wonder how "economical" the available glass trainers are in
> comparison to the cost of the older trainers used in the US. What did
> a new 2-33 cost?
> A new L-13?
>
> Bob

Production of the L-23 Super Blanik, the succesor of the L-13 Blanik,
was suspended in 2007. The base price new I have for 2006 was about
USD 50,000. By comparison the ASK-21 base price new in 2008 was about
EUR 68,000. The current base price for a new PW-6U is about EUR
54,000, for the SZD-54-2 Perkoz, successor of the SZD-50-3 Puchaz, the
base price new was about EUR 66,000 in 2008. The base price for a new
fixed gear 18m DG-1000 Club was about EUR 77,000 in 2008.

Markus

[bildan]

On Feb 6, 12:58*pm, Bob > wrote:
> > A more pressing problem for the soaring "powers to be" to address is to
> > come up with an economical 2 place glider to replace all of the grounded
> > L-13s.
>
> I wonder how "economical" the available glass trainers are in
> comparison to the cost of the older trainers used in the US. What did
> a new 2-33 cost?
> A new L-13?
>
> Bob

A new 1970 2-33 sold for about $22,000 which, in current dollars would
cost about $125,000. In comparison, a new ASK-21 is a bargain.

[CJN]

On Feb 6, 2:17*pm, bildan > wrote:

>
> A new 1970 2-33 sold for about $22,000 which, in current dollars would
> cost about $125,000. *In comparison, a new ASK-21 is a bargain.

Actually, that doesn't sound quite right. A friend of mine purchased
a new 1-26 in 1972 or 1973 and I believe he paid around $9000 or so.
So the $22K for the 2-33 sounds high. This is all from memory, no
hard data.

My partner and I purchased an almost new LS-1f (50 hrs TT) in 1978 for
$17K, so that also puts in question the stated price for the 2-33.
Any data for the $22K number for the 2-33?

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 2/6/2011 8:19 AM, Tim wrote:
> On Feb 5, 9:04 pm, Eric > wrote:
>
>
> BUT, most auto racing is done in various entry level classes that are
> alive because they have continually adapted to changing values and
> needs within auto racing. The soaring "powers that be" need to start
> thinking and acting "strategically" when considering how to preserve,
> let alone GROW our sport of glider racing.

That was exactly the thinking that led to the present World Class, but
it didn't work out. It's not an easy problem. We can't be sure what we
think would have worked, like new LS4s, would have turned out any
better, either. I can hear people saying, "Why buy a new World-Class-LS4
when I can buy a used one for half the price, or a new, higher
performance [insert favorite here] for only 20% more?".

Race cars at the entry level are much cheaper than gliders because they
can be built by almost anybody with a welder's torch and some steel
tubing, or because they are based on production models built by the tens
of thousands PER YEAR, and because they don't have to meet stringent
certification. "Changing and adapting equipment" is probably a poor
model for glider world.

My guess is it's not near the top of the sport - competition - that we
need to think and act, but near the bottom, where the new people come
into the sport. More glider operations closer to the people, a lower
cost path to a license, and less time to do it, would have more impact
on the sport than making a competition class more equal and less expensive.

Get the sport growing 5% a year, and we'd have vibrant racing classes in
a few years without changing the rules or the gliders.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[bildan]

On Feb 6, 3:36*pm, CJN > wrote:
> On Feb 6, 2:17*pm, bildan > wrote:
>
>
>
> > A new 1970 2-33 sold for about $22,000 which, in current dollars would
> > cost about $125,000. *In comparison, a new ASK-21 is a bargain.
>
> Actually, that doesn't sound quite right. *A friend of mine purchased
> a new 1-26 in 1972 or 1973 and I believe he paid around $9000 or so.
> So the $22K for the 2-33 sounds high. *This is all from memory, no
> hard data.
>
> My partner and I purchased an almost new LS-1f (50 hrs TT) in 1978 for
> $17K, so that also puts in question the stated price for the 2-33.
> Any data for the $22K number for the 2-33?

I wrote out the invoice.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Feb 7, 9:30*am, Markus Graeber > wrote:
> Production of the L-23 Super Blanik, the succesor of the L-13 Blanik,
> was suspended in 2007. The base price new I have for 2006 was about
> USD 50,000. By comparison the ASK-21 base price new in 2008 was about
> EUR 68,000. The current base price for a new PW-6U is about EUR
> 54,000, for the SZD-54-2 Perkoz, successor of the SZD-50-3 Puchaz, the
> base price new was about EUR 66,000 in 2008. The base price for a new
> fixed gear 18m DG-1000 Club was about EUR 77,000 in 2008.

To turn that around, and assuming the USD and EUR were about the same
in 2006 (where can you find historical data?), if for some reason you
had EUR 1,156,000 to spend you could get:

15 DG-1000 Club
17 ASK-21 or Perkoz
21 PW-6
23 Blanik L23

It's notable that only one glider in that list has an L/D over 40 and
flies like a modern single seater.

Actually, it's the only one over 35 too! Even the late 1970's Twin
Astir was at least high 30's.

[Marc]

On Feb 6, 7:23*pm, bildan > wrote:
> I wrote out the invoice.

Looking in early 1970 issues of soaring, one finds a few ads for used
2-33As, a typical one:

SCHWEIZER 2-33A, standard instruments and one vario.
1968 model, less than 250 hours. Firm price $4950.

I haven't found a single used one selling for over $6000, and they
only started making them in '67. How about this ad:

SCHWEIZER 2-32, trailer, oxygen, BEI omni, BEI 990 radio,
J-8 horizon, airspeed, altimeter, turn & bank, Winter vario,
Cook T.E. vario &audio, electric T&B, Cook compass,
accelerometer, clock, temperature gauge, exide battery, and
other extras making N2450W the most sophisticated
in the country. Less than 40 hrs time, in perfect condition.
Cost $16,000; will sell for $11,950 or best offer.

And, finally, quoting from the 2-33 introductory article in the
February '67 Soaring:

Price for the standard ATC'd sailplane is $5,250 F.O.B. Elmira,
New York.

That would have been something like 66% inflation per annum. Sounds
like you got ripped off...

Marc

[Chris Nicholas[_2_]]

Bruce, " . . . assuming the USD and EUR were about the same
in 2006 (where can you find historical data?) . . ."

Do a search. For example:

http://www.oanda.com/currency/historical-rates

"fxHistory is the easiest tool to access the largest foreign exchange
database on the Internet. To obtain the historical exchange rate for
any currency pair, select the language, the range of dates and the
currencies you would like to obtain exchange rates for."

Chris N

[Jim Beckman[_2_]]

At 16:19 06 February 2011, Tim wrote:
>Look at F1 Motor Racing, it exists, but is just the "tip of the spear"
>for auto racing - the best, the most technolgical, the msot expensive,
>etc. There is a place for the best, and I can't wait to see the
>Concordia fly and race.
>
>BUT, most auto racing is done in various entry level classes that are
>alive because they have continually adapted to changing values and
>needs within auto racing. The soaring "powers that be" need to start
>thinking and acting "strategically" when considering how to preserve,
>let alone GROW our sport of glider racing.

Probably the most popular and fastest growing class of club sports car
racing is the Spec Miata class, which is just about what it sounds like.
The cars are readily available, cheap, a blast to drive, and the allowed
modifications for racing are minimal.

The most popular one-class glider racing must still be the 1-26
Association, and their annual Championship competitions. These days the
World Class holds their US naitonal along with the 1-26s, and it's really
sort of embarrassing. The 1-26s field 20 to 30 racers, and the PW-5s have
about half a dozen.

Jim Beckman

[[email protected][_2_]]

Prices as published in 'America's Soaring Book' 74-75. No two seat
glass gliders listed(I don't know what existed then) I have no idea
about the street prices of these gliders back in the day, just copying
over printed info.
1-26 E $5,495
2-33 $6,995
Standard Cirrus $7,400
1-34 $7,795 RT $8,390
L-13 $8,950
ASW-15B $9,300
Standard Libelle $9,350
Nimbus II $12,350
ASW 17 $14,200
2-32 $14,995
ASK 16 (powered) $14,770
Caproni A-21J(jet powered) $31,995

[Hagbard Celine]

Well, unfortunately they're no longer building forty year old used
training gliders. Go look up what a new 2-33 cost from the 70's
through the 80's, adjust the price into 2011 dollars and then compare
it to what a new PW-6, ASK-21 etc. costs. They no longer seem so
expensive. The last time the L-23 was available new it really wasn't
particularly inexpensive either.

[Marc]

On Feb 7, 11:15*pm, Hagbard Celine > wrote:
> Well, unfortunately they're no longer building forty year old used
> training gliders. Go look up what a new 2-33 cost from the 70's
> through the 80's, adjust the price into 2011 dollars and then compare
> it to what a new PW-6, ASK-21 etc. costs. They no longer seem so
> expensive. The last time the L-23 was available new it really wasn't
> particularly inexpensive either.

You are a late comer to this thread, obviously. The claim was made
that a new 2-33 cost $22,000 in 1970, which would be equivalent to
over $125,000 today, making a new K-21 a fantastic bargain. The only
problem is that the base price of a new 2-33 was actually roughly
$5500 in 1970, which would be under $32,000 today. Last I checked,
the base price of a new ASK-21 is 70,000 Euros, or $95,000, and it
would cost around $5,000 to stuff one in a container and ship it
here. A lot of people would indeed argue the ASK-21 is a bargain at
only three times the price, but given the current health of soaring in
the US, it should be obvious why people are still hanging on to their
40 year old training gliders...

Marc