US National Park Overflights

[V1[_2_]]

In the Letters section of the USA Soaring magazine Feb 2011, there was
a reference to a possible glider violation of the "2000' per/1 mile
rule for national parks." I had not heard of this.

Separate from regulation of for-hire sight-seeing flights (which I
understand have been the subject of discussion and regulation), does
anyone have any knowledge of a specific FAA regulation or ruling about
glider flights over US national parks?

Thanks,
- Frank

[Paul Cordell]

and More restrictions may be coming. Talk of a 17,999 ceiling on the
Grand Canyon.

http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/articles/2011/110209noise_reduction_plan_for_grand_canyon_releas ed.html

[Scott[_7_]]

On 2-13-2011 17:01, Paul Cordell wrote:
> and More restrictions may be coming. Talk of a 17,999 ceiling on the
> Grand Canyon.
>
> http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/articles/2011/110209noise_reduction_plan_for_grand_canyon_releas ed.html

NOISE REDUCTION from a glider? Screaming hawks and eagles are noisier!
People thought we were crying wolf about progressively losing flying
freedoms after 9/11. Looks like we may have been right after all....

[T[_2_]]

On Feb 13, 7:24Â*am, V1 > wrote:
> In the Letters section of the USA Soaring magazine Feb 2011, there was
> a reference to a possible glider violation of the "2000' per/1 mile
> rule for national parks." I had not heard of this.
>
> Separate from regulation of for-hire sight-seeing flights (which I
> understand have been the subject of discussion and regulation), does
> anyone have any knowledge of a specific FAA regulation or ruling about
> glider flights over US national parks?
>
> Thanks,
> - Frank

Not a Rule.. but a request..
http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/Chap7/aim0704.html

"b. Pilots are requested to maintain a minimum altitude of 2,000 feet
above the surface of the following: National Parks, Monuments,
Seashores, Lakeshores, Recreation Areas and Scenic Riverways
administered by the National Park Service, National Wildlife Refuges,
Big Game Refuges, Game Ranges and Wildlife Ranges administered by the
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, and Wilderness and Primitive areas
administered by the U.S. Forest Service.

NOTE-
FAA Advisory Circular AC 91-36, Visual Flight Rules (VFR) Flight Near
Noise-Sensitive Areas, defines the surface of a national park area
(including parks, forests, primitive areas, wilderness areas,
recreational areas, national seashores, national monuments, national
lakeshores, and national wildlife refuge and range areas) as: the
highest terrain within 2,000 feet laterally of the route of flight, or
the upper-most rim of a canyon or valley."

They are annotated on the charts with a solid blue line with dots to
the inside of the area and will be labled with a "Name National
Wildlife Refuge".

T

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 2/13/2011 1:32 PM, Scott wrote:
> On 2-13-2011 17:01, Paul Cordell wrote:
> > and More restrictions may be coming. Talk of a 17,999 ceiling on
> > the Grand Canyon.
> >
> >
http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/articles/2011/110209noise_reduction_plan_for_grand_canyon_releas ed.html
>
>
> >

> NOISE REDUCTION from a glider? Screaming hawks and eagles are
noisier! People thought we were
> crying wolf about progressively losing flying freedoms after 9/11.
Looks like we may have been right
> after all....
>

It's hard to see the heavy hand of Homeland Security and the ghost of
9/11 in an airspace change driven by noise concerns. No need to invoke
9/11 to understand why the FAA, tour operators, and even AOPA might not
think too much about gliders crossing the airspace! It doesn't happen
very often - I know, I've tried for about 5 years, flying out Parowan,
and raising the "flight-free" zones to 18,000' would definitely make it
harder.
_
Eric Greenwell






--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

[Paul Cordell]

We are there on a fairly regular basis. Top of lift this day last
fall was 12.5K We don't need a higher fence.

http://tinypic.com/r/98alci/7

[Cliff Hilty[_2_]]

Ive made the crossing both ways 2 times a year for the last several years
and have had to go around it (via vegas and page) a few times when I
havent been able to get above 12k for a glide from the middle to either
side. And I am just one of a bunch of pilots that try each year. After all
it is the biggest hole in the world :) It was and is designed for noise
abatement so maybe we could/should get an Exemption Letter for gliders.


At 05:57 14 February 2011, Paul Cordell wrote:
>We are there on a fairly regular basis. Top of lift this day last
>fall was 12.5K We don't need a higher fence.
>
>http://tinypic.com/r/98alci/7
>
>

[Whiskey Delta]

On Feb 15, 4:46*pm, Cliff Hilty
> wrote:
> Ive made the crossing both ways 2 times a year for the last several years
> and have had to go around it (via vegas and page) a few times when I
> havent been able to get above 12k for a glide from the middle to either
> side. And I am just one of a bunch of pilots that try each year. After all
> it is the biggest hole in the world :) It was and is designed for noise
> abatement so maybe we could/should get an Exemption Letter for gliders.
>
> At 05:57 14 February 2011, Paul Cordell wrote:
>
> >We are there on a fairly regular basis. * Top of lift this day last
> >fall was 12.5K * We don't need a higher fence.
>
> >http://tinypic.com/r/98alci/7

Has anyone ever had to land in the canyon? Suddenly can't get back to
either side.... That would be a story I would love to hear (assuming
no one was hurt). I'm not talking about Evil Knievel either...

WD

[Cliff Hilty[_2_]]

No , Although on either end (east or West) there are airports that are some
where in between the top of the rim and the colorado river, landing
"down" in the canyon would be next to impossible without major damage or
a water landing in to a pretty fast current and slim chance of surviving
the incident. I ALWAYS have enough altitude to make the rims and at least
a rough field landing. And most of the time am pushing the 17999' so that
I don't decend into the 14 K ceiling of the current SFR area. And yes
there are corridors below that but until now you had to use a paper chart
to navigate through them!

CH Ventus B



At 22:28 15 February 2011, Whiskey Delta wrote:
>On Feb 15, 4:46=A0pm, Cliff Hilty
> wrote:
>> Ive made the crossing both ways 2 times a year for the last several
>years
>> and have had to go around it (via vegas and page) a few times when I
>> havent been able to get above 12k for a glide from the middle to
either
>> side. And I am just one of a bunch of pilots that try each year. After
>al=
>l
>> it is the biggest hole in the world :) It was and is designed for
noise
>> abatement so maybe we could/should get an Exemption Letter for
gliders.
>>
>> At 05:57 14 February 2011, Paul Cordell wrote:
>>
>> >We are there on a fairly regular basis. =A0 Top of lift this day last
>> >fall was 12.5K =A0 We don't need a higher fence.
>>
>> >http://tinypic.com/r/98alci/7
>
>Has anyone ever had to land in the canyon? Suddenly can't get back to
>either side.... That would be a story I would love to hear (assuming
>no one was hurt). I'm not talking about Evil Knievel either...
>
>WD
>

[Bruce Hoult]

On Feb 16, 11:28*am, Whiskey Delta > wrote:
> Has anyone ever had to land in the canyon? *Suddenly can't get back to
> either side.... *That would be a story I would love to hear (assuming
> no one was hurt). *I'm not talking about Evil Knievel either...

If there's not too much sink about you could fly a heck of a long way
downriver from just below the rim, and given all the rapid there must
be a pretty good overall drop in the river too.

[BravoCharlie]

On Feb 15, 4:24*pm, Bruce Hoult > wrote:
> On Feb 16, 11:28*am, Whiskey Delta > wrote:
>
> > Has anyone ever had to land in the canyon? *Suddenly can't get back to
> > either side.... *That would be a story I would love to hear (assuming
> > no one was hurt). *I'm not talking about Evil Knievel either...
>
> If there's not too much sink about you could fly a heck of a long way
> downriver from just below the rim, and given all the rapid there must
> be a pretty good overall drop in the river too.

If memory serves me, Bill Moyes flew a very primitive Rogallo wing
hang glider from the rim to Phantom Ranch at the bottom. Circa 1970.
You probably don't want to land there in a sailplane....

Bob

[Mike the Strike]

On Feb 15, 6:42*pm, BravoCharlie >
wrote:
> On Feb 15, 4:24*pm, Bruce Hoult > wrote:
>
> > On Feb 16, 11:28*am, Whiskey Delta > wrote:
>
> > > Has anyone ever had to land in the canyon? *Suddenly can't get back to
> > > either side.... *That would be a story I would love to hear (assuming
> > > no one was hurt). *I'm not talking about Evil Knievel either...
>
> > If there's not too much sink about you could fly a heck of a long way
> > downriver from just below the rim, and given all the rapid there must
> > be a pretty good overall drop in the river too.
>
> If memory serves me, Bill Moyes flew a very primitive Rogallo wing
> hang glider from the rim to Phantom Ranch at the bottom. *Circa 1970.
> You probably don't want to land there in a sailplane....
>
> Bob

There used to be an old airfield not too far from the North Rim that
was used by either the Forest Service or the NPS. In any event, there
are plenty of open landable spots along the road to the North Rim, I
had my eye on them when I flew there from Parowan a couple of years
ago as I navigated around thundershowers. Don't forget, though, the
Park Service will throw a hissy fit if you land a glider there.

I've also hiked rim to rim a couple of times and about the only flat
spot you could land a glider is in the Colorado River, which I
wouldn't recommend. In addition to wrecking the glider, you'd get
cited for floating the river without a permit!

Mike