National Records & Citizenship

[Tony[_5_]]

I couldn't find much on a search but am really curious as to why
apparently National records are based on citizenship and not on the
location of the actual flight? This leads to very misleading listings
of National Records. For example the World Altitude Record of Fossett
and Enevoldsen of 50,721 ft was flown in Argentina but shows up as a
US Multiplace National Record when in fact no multiplace glider has
ever flown that high in the US. Similar with the 1500 km that Fossett
and Delore flew in Argentina. What was the FAI thinking when they
decided to use citizenship instead of the country where you start your
flight? Surely they had a reason.

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 07:38:34 -0800, Tony wrote:

> I couldn't find much on a search but am really curious as to why
> apparently National records are based on citizenship and not on the
> location of the actual flight? This leads to very misleading listings
> of National Records. For example the World Altitude Record of Fossett
> and Enevoldsen of 50,721 ft was flown in Argentina but shows up as a US
> Multiplace National Record when in fact no multiplace glider has ever
> flown that high in the US. Similar with the 1500 km that Fossett and
> Delore flew in Argentina. What was the FAI thinking when they decided
> to use citizenship instead of the country where you start your flight?
> Surely they had a reason.
>
Isn't that a question for the US national aeroclub?

Of course the FAI administers world records, but I think you'll find that
US national records are the responsibility of your national aero club and
that they set the rules about who can hold a national record and where,
geographically, it can be set.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Tony[_5_]]

On Mar 10, 10:15*am, Martin Gregorie >
wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 07:38:34 -0800, Tony wrote:
> > I couldn't find much on a search but am really curious as to why
> > apparently National records are based on citizenship and not on the
> > location of the actual flight? *This leads to very misleading listings
> > of National Records. *For example the World Altitude Record of Fossett
> > and Enevoldsen of 50,721 ft was flown in Argentina but shows up as a US
> > Multiplace National Record when in fact no multiplace glider has ever
> > flown that high in the US. *Similar with the 1500 km that Fossett and
> > Delore flew in Argentina. *What was the FAI thinking when they decided
> > to use citizenship instead of the country where you start your flight?
> > Surely they had a reason.
>
> Isn't that a question for the US national aeroclub?
>
> Of course the FAI administers world records, but I think you'll find that
> US national records are the responsibility of your national aero club and
> that they set the rules about who can hold a national record and where,
> geographically, it can be set.
>
> --
> martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> org * * * |

OK then, why are US records based on citizenship instead of geographic
location? Although the one thread I did find here on the subject
seemed to indicate that the US is not the only country with this
situation.

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 08:27:04 -0800, Tony wrote:

> On Mar 10, 10:15Â*am, Martin Gregorie >
> wrote:
>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 07:38:34 -0800, Tony wrote:
>> > I couldn't find much on a search but am really curious as to why
>> > apparently National records are based on citizenship and not on the
>> > location of the actual flight? Â*This leads to very misleading
>> > listings of National Records. Â*For example the World Altitude Record
>> > of Fossett and Enevoldsen of 50,721 ft was flown in Argentina but
>> > shows up as a US Multiplace National Record when in fact no
>> > multiplace glider has ever flown that high in the US. Â*Similar with
>> > the 1500 km that Fossett and Delore flew in Argentina. Â*What was the
>> > FAI thinking when they decided to use citizenship instead of the
>> > country where you start your flight? Surely they had a reason.
>>
>> Isn't that a question for the US national aeroclub?
>>
>> Of course the FAI administers world records, but I think you'll find
>> that US national records are the responsibility of your national aero
>> club and that they set the rules about who can hold a national record
>> and where, geographically, it can be set.
>>
>> --
>> martin@ Â* | Martin Gregorie
>> gregorie. | Essex, UK
>> org Â* Â* Â* |
>
> OK then, why are US records based on citizenship instead of geographic
> location? Although the one thread I did find here on the subject seemed
> to indicate that the US is not the only country with this situation.
>
I never said or implied that the US is the only country to do that: just
that the rules for national records will be set by a national body, not
the FAI.

The UK has a very similar rule. National records must be set by UK
citizens but can be set anywhere in the world. I know of at least one UK
record that was set in Patagonia.



--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[ppp1]

On 10 maalis, 22:54, Martin Gregorie >
wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 08:27:04 -0800, Tony wrote:
> > On Mar 10, 10:15*am, Martin Gregorie >
> > wrote:
> >> On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 07:38:34 -0800, Tony wrote:
> >> > I couldn't find much on a search but am really curious as to why
> >> > apparently National records are based on citizenship and not on the
> >> > location of the actual flight? *This leads to very misleading
> >> > listings of National Records. *For example the World Altitude Record
> >> > of Fossett and Enevoldsen of 50,721 ft was flown in Argentina but
> >> > shows up as a US Multiplace National Record when in fact no
> >> > multiplace glider has ever flown that high in the US. *Similar with
> >> > the 1500 km that Fossett and Delore flew in Argentina. *What was the
> >> > FAI thinking when they decided to use citizenship instead of the
> >> > country where you start your flight? Surely they had a reason.
>
> >> Isn't that a question for the US national aeroclub?
>
> >> Of course the FAI administers world records, but I think you'll find
> >> that US national records are the responsibility of your national aero
> >> club and that they set the rules about who can hold a national record
> >> and where, geographically, it can be set.
>
> >> --
> >> martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
> >> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> >> org * * * |
>
> > OK then, why are US records based on citizenship instead of geographic
> > location? *Although the one thread I did find here on the subject seemed
> > to indicate that the US is not the only country with this situation.
>
> I never said or implied that the US is the only country to do that: just
> that the rules for national records will be set by a national body, not
> the FAI.
>
> The UK has a very similar rule. National records must be set by UK
> citizens but can be set anywhere in the world. I know of at least one UK
> record that was set in Patagonia.
>
> --
> martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> org * * * |

If Quatemalan 100m sprinter runs under their national record in Japan,
SURE it is Quatemalian record. Right? Same goes with gliding. Some
countries has national records in two categories. Flown abroad and
flown home.

[Tony[_5_]]

On Mar 11, 3:15*am, ppp1 > wrote:
> On 10 maalis, 22:54, Martin Gregorie >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 08:27:04 -0800, Tony wrote:
> > > On Mar 10, 10:15*am, Martin Gregorie >
> > > wrote:
> > >> On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 07:38:34 -0800, Tony wrote:
> > >> > I couldn't find much on a search but am really curious as to why
> > >> > apparently National records are based on citizenship and not on the
> > >> > location of the actual flight? *This leads to very misleading
> > >> > listings of National Records. *For example the World Altitude Record
> > >> > of Fossett and Enevoldsen of 50,721 ft was flown in Argentina but
> > >> > shows up as a US Multiplace National Record when in fact no
> > >> > multiplace glider has ever flown that high in the US. *Similar with
> > >> > the 1500 km that Fossett and Delore flew in Argentina. *What was the
> > >> > FAI thinking when they decided to use citizenship instead of the
> > >> > country where you start your flight? Surely they had a reason.
>
> > >> Isn't that a question for the US national aeroclub?
>
> > >> Of course the FAI administers world records, but I think you'll find
> > >> that US national records are the responsibility of your national aero
> > >> club and that they set the rules about who can hold a national record
> > >> and where, geographically, it can be set.
>
> > >> --
> > >> martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
> > >> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> > >> org * * * |
>
> > > OK then, why are US records based on citizenship instead of geographic
> > > location? *Although the one thread I did find here on the subject seemed
> > > to indicate that the US is not the only country with this situation.
>
> > I never said or implied that the US is the only country to do that: just
> > that the rules for national records will be set by a national body, not
> > the FAI.
>
> > The UK has a very similar rule. National records must be set by UK
> > citizens but can be set anywhere in the world. I know of at least one UK
> > record that was set in Patagonia.
>
> > --
> > martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
> > gregorie. | Essex, UK
> > org * * * |
>
> If Quatemalan 100m sprinter runs under their national record in Japan,
> SURE it is Quatemalian record. Right? Same goes with gliding. Some
> countries has national records in two categories. Flown abroad and
> flown home.

sure but you could run a 100 meter dash in any country in the world
and expect basically the same performance of the same runner. Run a
100 km triangle in any country in the world with same pilot and same
glider and you would expect a large difference in performance.

[Chris Rollings[_2_]]

The UK has British National Records that must be flown by UK Citizens but
can be set anywhere in the World and UK Local Records that can be set by
any Nationality on flights starting within the UK. Only the Absolute
Altitude and Gain of Height Records appear on both lists. The National
Records are FAI mandated, the UK Local ones are purely a BGA thing, I
don't know if other countries have local records or not. You can see the
point in the UK with our lousy weather.

At 20:54 10 March 2011, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 08:27:04 -0800, Tony wrote:
>
>> On Mar 10, 10:15Â*am, Martin Gregorie
>> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 07:38:34 -0800, Tony wrote:
>>> > I couldn't find much on a search but am really curious as to why
>>> > apparently National records are based on citizenship and not on the
>>> > location of the actual flight? Â*This leads to very misleading
>>> > listings of National Records. Â*For example the World Altitude
Record
>>> > of Fossett and Enevoldsen of 50,721 ft was flown in Argentina but
>>> > shows up as a US Multiplace National Record when in fact no
>>> > multiplace glider has ever flown that high in the US. Â*Similar
with
>>> > the 1500 km that Fossett and Delore flew in Argentina. Â*What was
the
>>> > FAI thinking when they decided to use citizenship instead of the
>>> > country where you start your flight? Surely they had a reason.
>>>
>>> Isn't that a question for the US national aeroclub?
>>>
>>> Of course the FAI administers world records, but I think you'll find
>>> that US national records are the responsibility of your national aero
>>> club and that they set the rules about who can hold a national record
>>> and where, geographically, it can be set.
>>>
>>> --
>>> martin@ Â* | Martin Gregorie
>>> gregorie. | Essex, UK
>>> org Â* Â* Â* |
>>
>> OK then, why are US records based on citizenship instead of geographic
>> location? Although the one thread I did find here on the subject
seemed
>> to indicate that the US is not the only country with this situation.
>>
>I never said or implied that the US is the only country to do that: just

>that the rules for national records will be set by a national body, not
>the FAI.
>
>The UK has a very similar rule. National records must be set by UK
>citizens but can be set anywhere in the world. I know of at least one UK

>record that was set in Patagonia.
>
>
>
>--
>martin@ | Martin Gregorie
>gregorie. | Essex, UK
>org |
>

[Chris Rollings[_2_]]

The FAI set the rules for National Records and they are based on
Citizenship and can be set anywhere in the World. Of the British National
Records only the Absolute Altitude and Gain of Height were set in the UK,
the rest in more favoured climes. The BGA also administers a set of UK
Local Records, these can be set by Citizens of any country on flights
starting in the UK. As it happens I think they are all held by UK Citizens
and, so far as I can recall, always have been ( though, I think there have
been one or two cases of pilots with dual nationality holding one). The
UK Local Records are not regulated by the FAI, they are purely a BGA
thing. Nothing to stop the SSA doing the same thing in the USA, they
already run a set of State Records after all.

Not sure what the FAI rules are on records if there are pilots of two
diffferent nationalities in a two seater, anyone know?

At 13:26 11 March 2011, Tony wrote:
>On Mar 11, 3:15=A0am, ppp1 wrote:
>> On 10 maalis, 22:54, Martin Gregorie
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 08:27:04 -0800, Tony wrote:
>> > > On Mar 10, 10:15=A0am, Martin Gregorie
>> > > wrote:
>> > >> On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 07:38:34 -0800, Tony wrote:
>> > >> > I couldn't find much on a search but am really curious as to
why
>> > >> > apparently National records are based on citizenship and not on
>th=
>e
>> > >> > location of the actual flight? =A0This leads to very misleading
>> > >> > listings of National Records. =A0For example the World Altitude
>Re=
>cord
>> > >> > of Fossett and Enevoldsen of 50,721 ft was flown in Argentina
but
>> > >> > shows up as a US Multiplace National Record when in fact no
>> > >> > multiplace glider has ever flown that high in the US.
=A0Similar
>w=
>ith
>> > >> > the 1500 km that Fossett and Delore flew in Argentina. =A0What
>was=
> the
>> > >> > FAI thinking when they decided to use citizenship instead of
the
>> > >> > country where you start your flight? Surely they had a reason.
>>
>> > >> Isn't that a question for the US national aeroclub?
>>
>> > >> Of course the FAI administers world records, but I think you'll
>find
>> > >> that US national records are the responsibility of your national
>aer=
>o
>> > >> club and that they set the rules about who can hold a national
>recor=
>d
>> > >> and where, geographically, it can be set.
>>
>> > >> --
>> > >> martin@ =A0 | Martin Gregorie
>> > >> gregorie. | Essex, UK
>> > >> org =A0 =A0 =A0 |
>>
>> > > OK then, why are US records based on citizenship instead of
>geographi=
>c
>> > > location? =A0Although the one thread I did find here on the
subject
>s=
>eemed
>> > > to indicate that the US is not the only country with this
situation.
>>
>> > I never said or implied that the US is the only country to do that:
>jus=
>t
>> > that the rules for national records will be set by a national body,
>not
>> > the FAI.
>>
>> > The UK has a very similar rule. National records must be set by UK
>> > citizens but can be set anywhere in the world. I know of at least
one
>U=
>K
>> > record that was set in Patagonia.
>>
>> > --
>> > martin@ =A0 | Martin Gregorie
>> > gregorie. | Essex, UK
>> > org =A0 =A0 =A0 |
>>
>> If Quatemalan 100m sprinter runs under their national record in Japan,
>> SURE it is Quatemalian record. Right? Same goes with gliding. Some
>> countries has national records in two categories. Flown abroad and
>> flown home.
>
>sure but you could run a 100 meter dash in any country in the world
>and expect basically the same performance of the same runner. Run a
>100 km triangle in any country in the world with same pilot and same
>glider and you would expect a large difference in performance.
>

[cernauta]

On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 06:19:46 +0000, Chris Rollings
> wrote:


>
>Not sure what the FAI rules are on records if there are pilots of two
>diffferent nationalities in a two seater, anyone know?


IIRC, a World Record claim should be approved, first by the NAC
competent for the country where the flight was made; second, by the
NAC of the record claimer.

If one of the two NACs refuses approval, the claim can't be approved
by the FAI. Thus, it's up to the two NACs involved, and their rules,
to allow for a mixed nationality crew to perform world record flights

It seems for example that the German NAC has nothing against a mixed
crew (see current WR list), while a few other nations require both
crew members to be of the same nationality (AFAIK, France).

Just read through the national rules, search for this item, and check
that the wording is compatible with FAI rules.

aldo cernezzi
www.voloavela.it