ASW-12 Proto Question

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

So, for any that were involved with the returning of the prototype
ASW-12 from California to Germany, can you tell me a bit about the
trailer the plane was in for shipping back to Germany? Did the
glider load into the trailer over the tongue, or in the more
conventional way, through the back of the trailer? Was the trailer
still a canvas covered box, or had it been skinned with metal? The
plane was de-registered from the US in 2005.

Sort of working a little history project. Any information would be
appreciated!

Thanks in advance!

Steve Leonard

[Dan Marotta]

On Mar 14, 9:53*pm, Steve Leonard > wrote:
> So, for any that were involved with the returning of the prototype
> ASW-12 from California to Germany, can you tell me a bit about the
> trailer the plane was in for shipping back to Germany? * Did the
> glider load into the trailer over the tongue, or in the more
> conventional way, through the back of the trailer? *Was the trailer
> still a canvas covered box, or had it been skinned with metal? *The
> plane was de-registered from the US in 2005.
>
> Sort of working a little history project. *Any information would be
> appreciated!
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Steve Leonard

Looking to add to your "harem", Steve?

[JS]

C'mon! You know the answer to that question.
Jim

On Mar 15, 6:43*am, Dan Marotta > wrote:

> Looking to add to your "harem", Steve?

[[email protected]]

On Mar 14, 8:53*pm, Steve Leonard > wrote:
> So, for any that were involved with the returning of the prototype
> ASW-12 from California to Germany, can you tell me a bit about the
> trailer the plane was in for shipping back to Germany? * Did the
> glider load into the trailer over the tongue, or in the more
> conventional way, through the back of the trailer? *Was the trailer
> still a canvas covered box, or had it been skinned with metal? *The
> plane was de-registered from the US in 2005.
>
> Sort of working a little history project. *Any information would be
> appreciated!
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Steve Leonard


The original factory trailers I have seen in pictures were front-load
and canvas covered.

Just so we are clear, I will murder anyone who crashes S/N 12012 due
to incompetence and survives the accident.... Just Say'in......

[[email protected]]

And for historic corrrectness:

it is AS-W12 NOT ASW-12

[Andy[_1_]]

> Just so we are clear, I will murder anyone who crashes S/N 12012 due
> to incompetence and survives the accident.... *Just Say'in......

Why? I thought there were busted quite frequently when they were new.

As to the name, Alexander Schleicher lists the glider as "ASW 12"
which is the same naming convention as used for all the ASx gliders
since then. No dash anywhere in the name. FAA seems to have an
abhorance of the space and has to put a dash somewhere but that
doesn't make it the real designation of the glider.

Andy

[[email protected]]

On Mar 15, 12:59*pm, Andy > wrote:
> > Just so we are clear, I will murder anyone who crashes S/N 12012 due
> > to incompetence and survives the accident.... *Just Say'in......
>
> Why? *I thought there were busted quite frequently when they were new.
>

It might have something to do with the 2-3000 man-hours I put intoit's
better-than-new, museum quality total restoration / modification.

[JS]

Didn't one person think that glider would best be dealt with using a
box of matches?
I witnessed the rebuild from paint scrapers and a belt sander to
rigging and blasting up the Sierra Nevada.
Couldn't believe it when Gerhard referred to the design as "a mistake
of my youth".
Jim

On Mar 15, 2:00*pm, " > wrote:

> It might have something to do with the 2-3000 man-hours I put intoit's
> better-than-new, museum quality total restoration / modification.

[Andy[_1_]]

>Couldn't believe it when Gerhard referred to the design as "a mistake
>of my youth".

Why not? It came from a period where performance was the primary
design goal and safety was a distant second. I'm a Schleicher owner
because they changed that philosophy.

Hope it's going to a museum.

Andy

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

Sorry about my mistake in the ID, Mark. I am sure that sort of thing
grates on some people just like poor Harland Ross suffering through
people calling his R-6 "The RJ-6".

And, yes, Andy. The prototype AS-W 12 (or ASW12) is in the Soaring
Museum at the Wasserkuppe. Right next to D-36 V2, Glasflugel BS1
serial 3, and I bleive there is also a Phoenix near by.

My question stems from two gliders and two trailers and how I suspect
the gliders traded trailers, so the trailer that is still here use to
house the original 12. And trying to make sure the trailer gets
preserved and not chopped up for holding another plane.

As to it being "a mistake of my youth", Gerhard, you are forgiven.
The sailplane was built for all out performance. The glide path
variation issue has been resolved by creative owners and probably some
help from Schleicher, so all is good.

Steve Leonard

[Jack[_16_]]

On Mar 15, 4:17*pm, Steve Leonard > wrote:
> Sorry about my mistake in the ID, Mark. *I am sure that sort of thing
> grates on some people just like poor Harland Ross suffering through
> people calling his R-6 "The RJ-6".
>
> And, yes, Andy. *The prototype AS-W 12 (or ASW12) is in the Soaring
> Museum at the Wasserkuppe. *Right next to D-36 V2, Glasflugel BS1
> serial 3, and I bleive there is also a Phoenix near by.
>
> My question stems from two gliders and two trailers and how I suspect
> the gliders traded trailers, so the trailer that is still here use to
> house the original 12. *And trying to make sure the trailer gets
> preserved and not chopped up for holding another plane.
>
> As to it being "a mistake of my youth", Gerhard, you are forgiven.
> The sailplane was built for all out performance. *The glide path
> variation issue has been resolved by creative owners and probably some
> help from Schleicher, so all is good.
>
> Steve Leonard

Steve;

I am the one who sent AS-W12 serial number 12001 to Germany. Wally
Scott was the original U. S. owner of this sailplane. My dad was the
second U. S. owner. The trailer that Wally transferred to my dad is, I
am sure, the one it came to the U. S. in. It had a cover of
'rubberized canvas' and the tongue of the trailer was mounted at the
end with the large opening. Rigging or derigging therefore required
unhooking the trailer from the vehicle, so the fuselage and wings
could come through the large opening end.

Another AS-W12 owner (whose name I can't quite conjure up right now)
had modified a trailer of the same type as the one described above.
The 'rubberized canvas' had been replaced with aluminum sheeting, and
the tongue had been moved to the small end of the trailer. I was
living in Georgia from 1992 to 1998 and I believe it was during that
time that my dad and the other owner swapped trailers (I assume some
cash was involved). Serial number 12001 was delivered to Long Beach
harbor in this modified trailer, where it went on a cargo ship, and
eventually found its' way to the Schleicher factory.

Edgar Kremer was the head of the Schleicher factory at that time. He
saw to it that the ship was restored in a most beautiful way. Perhaps
because he did about 90% of the original construction on her, made the
first and initial flights in her, and I believe was her owner for a
while.

I have a picture of the two trailers mentioned above, sitting side by
side, at Mojave I think.

I had the honor of meeting Edgar and Gerhard at the Wasserkuppe,
having dinner, getting a guided tour of the museum, going to the local
monastery and having a good German beer. What a great memory.

I also know from very, very reliable sources the story of how the
AS-12 came to be known as the AS-W12, and all subsequent Schleicher
designs have had a letter designation for the designer. Would you like
to hear the story?

Jack Gravance

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 3/15/2011 7:21 PM, Jack wrote:

>
> I also know from very, very reliable sources the story of how the
> AS-12 came to be known as the AS-W12, and all subsequent Schleicher
> designs have had a letter designation for the designer. Would you like
> to hear the story?
>
> Jack Gravance

I would, and I hope includes mention that some earlier gliders, like
Ka-6 and Ka-7, also had the "designer designator" in them.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[Dan[_6_]]

On Mar 15, 8:12*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> On 3/15/2011 7:21 PM, Jack wrote:
>
>
>
> > I also know from very, very reliable sources the story of how the
> > AS-12 came to be known as the AS-W12, and all subsequent Schleicher
> > designs have had a letter designation for the designer. Would you like
> > to hear the story?
>
> > Jack Gravance
>
> I would, and I hope includes mention that some earlier gliders, like
> Ka-6 and Ka-7, also had the "designer designator" in them.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
> email me)

All well documented in the book Rhon Adler.
check it out.
it was written to document the first 75 years of Schleicher.
Also Jan Scott sells a CD of the translation.
Dan
AS-W 20
WO

[Derek C]

On Mar 15, 9:36*pm, JS > wrote:
> * Didn't one person think that glider would best be dealt with using a
> box of matches?
> I witnessed the rebuild from paint scrapers and a belt sander to
> rigging and blasting up the Sierra Nevada.
> Couldn't believe it when Gerhard referred to the design as "a mistake
> of my youth".
>
A slippery high performance glider with no airbrakes that relies on
tailchutes to stop it has to be a mistake by Mr Waibel!

[Colin Roney]

So no pressure then.

At 19:09 15 March 2011, wrote:
>On Mar 14, 8:53=A0pm, Steve Leonard wrote:
>> So, for any that were involved with the returning of the prototype
>> ASW-12 from California to Germany, can you tell me a bit about the
>> trailer the plane was in for shipping back to Germany? =A0 Did the
>> glider load into the trailer over the tongue, or in the more
>> conventional way, through the back of the trailer? =A0Was the trailer
>> still a canvas covered box, or had it been skinned with metal? =A0The
>> plane was de-registered from the US in 2005.
>>
>> Sort of working a little history project. =A0Any information would be
>> appreciated!
>>
>> Thanks in advance!
>>
>> Steve Leonard
>
>
>The original factory trailers I have seen in pictures were front-load
>and canvas covered.
>
>Just so we are clear, I will murder anyone who crashes S/N 12012 due
>to incompetence and survives the accident.... Just Say'in......
>

[KevinFinke]

I don't think it was a mistake by Herr Waibel. Perhaps he was pressed
by Marketing to create a glider that "Just Doesn't Want to Come Down."

Surely any pilot who had flown it would respond with such a phrase
after flying it.

-Kevin

[mike]

On Mar 16, 12:17*am, Derek C > wrote:
> On Mar 15, 9:36*pm, JS > wrote:> * Didn't one person think that glider would best be dealt with using a
> > box of matches?
> > I witnessed the rebuild from paint scrapers and a belt sander to
> > rigging and blasting up the Sierra Nevada.
> > Couldn't believe it when Gerhard referred to the design as "a mistake
> > of my youth".
>
> A slippery high performance glider with no airbrakes that relies on
> tailchutes to stop it has to be a mistake by Mr Waibel!

I wondered how difficult it would have been to design and build the
linkage for the flaps to go +60 degrees.

[JS]

There was a flap mod for the 12. From my recollection of trying to
adjust for the claimed maximum positive flap, things got asymmetrical.
You may need to settle for a partial improvement in landing flaps.
Jim

On Mar 16, 9:36*am, mike > wrote:
>
> I wondered how difficult it would have been to design and build the
> linkage for the flaps to go +60 degrees.

[Paul Remde]

Hi,

Rhon Adler is a great book.

I sell it and the English translation (printed) here:
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/books/RhonAdler/RhonAdler.htm

I have read the book, but I don't remember the part about the AS-W12
designation.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.


"Dan" > wrote in message
...
On Mar 15, 8:12 pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> On 3/15/2011 7:21 PM, Jack wrote:
>
>
>
> > I also know from very, very reliable sources the story of how the
> > AS-12 came to be known as the AS-W12, and all subsequent Schleicher
> > designs have had a letter designation for the designer. Would you like
> > to hear the story?
>
> > Jack Gravance
>
> I would, and I hope includes mention that some earlier gliders, like
> Ka-6 and Ka-7, also had the "designer designator" in them.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
> email me)

All well documented in the book Rhon Adler.
check it out.
it was written to document the first 75 years of Schleicher.
Also Jan Scott sells a CD of the translation.
Dan
AS-W 20
WO

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 3/15/2011 11:17 PM, Derek C wrote:
> On Mar 15, 9:36 pm, > wrote:
>> Didn't one person think that glider would best be dealt with using a
>> box of matches?
>> I witnessed the rebuild from paint scrapers and a belt sander to
>> rigging and blasting up the Sierra Nevada.
>> Couldn't believe it when Gerhard referred to the design as "a mistake
>> of my youth".
>>
> A slippery high performance glider with no airbrakes that relies on
> tailchutes to stop it has to be a mistake by Mr Waibel!

I recall Gerhard saying that the ASW12 taught him a lesson
(paraphrasing): "Every high performance ship will sooner or later be
bought by a lower performance pilot, and that is the pilot you must
design for, not just the very best ones". He apparently learned well,
and went on to bring us some very high performance ship the "the rest of
us" could easily fly.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

[[email protected]]

Flying the 12 was never a problem. It is very docile,much like the AS-
W17. It did give me "aileron elbow" due to the large, powerful
ailerons. It was easy to fling about like a 15m ship but you paid for
it. I asked Wil Schuemann how he dealt with the issue and he said
"don't turn". Wisdom.

I have never been more "awake" than when landing the 12. Holding a
rudder-stalled, nose-high slip down through the flair was nerve
wracking. The only thing worse was not doing so.

I appreciate the design philosophy of all-out performance that
inspired a passionate young designer to build such a machine. The
Concordia with its leading edge technology and design, its balsa core
and planked fuselage is very reminiscent of the 12.

[Hagbard Celine]

I've done quite a few no-spoiler spot landings in my ASW-15B and have
always sort of wondered how the experience would compare to attempting
the same thing in a 12. I've always had a soft spot for the 12 and
occasionally dream of buying S/N 12015 if she ever comes up for sale.

By the way, has anyone else noticed that in "The Sunship Game" Wally
Scott's 12 seems to be one of the few gliders that DOESN'T get banged
up at least a little bit?

[[email protected]]

FYI:

The type certificate and the Data Plate both cite the model as
AS W-12

not ASW 12 or AS-W 12

The trailer Bob had is identical (Except for the doors and the antenna rigging on the JR trailer) to mine which is pretty much stock as it was built.

Rick Paquette
AS W12 SN 12002