Spring Cleaning and Battery Testing

[ContestID67[_2_]]

Each year I like to test my batteries and replace those that do not
have enough capacity for a typical flight of 3-4-ish hours with all
the electronics running. I run two batteries so that removes a worry
about loosing power during a record flight. But how do you perform a
good real world test?

My test is basically connecting a resistive load to the battery,
measure the battery voltage every 10 minutes or so. Then wait for the
battery voltage to drop to 11.5Vdc (an arbitratry but safe value).
Simple.

I create an Excel spreadsheet that explains all this - the testing
that I perform, the test rig that I used and templates for gathering
the data and then graphing the results. See http://aviation.derosaweb.net/#batterytest.

I’d love to hear any comments that you might have. Enjoy.

John DeRosa
John<at>derosaweb.com

[brianDG303[_2_]]

On Mar 16, 4:00*pm, ContestID67 > wrote:
> Each year I like to test my batteries and replace those that do not
> have enough capacity for a typical flight of 3-4-ish hours with all
> the electronics running. I run two batteries so that removes a worry
> about loosing power during a record flight. *But how do you perform a
> good real world test?
>
> My test is basically connecting a resistive load to the battery,
> measure the battery voltage every 10 minutes or so. *Then wait for the
> battery voltage to drop to 11.5Vdc (an arbitratry but safe value).
> Simple.
>
> I create an Excel spreadsheet that explains all this - the testing
> that I perform, the test rig that I used and templates for gathering
> the data and then graphing the results. * Seehttp://aviation.derosaweb.net/#batterytest.
>
> I’d love to hear any comments that you might have. *Enjoy.
>
> John DeRosa
> John<at>derosaweb.com

John,
I have used that method and it works well, but.............
First, as I am sure you know, you want a load that is similar to the
real-life load. I use a 12 volt lamp (AKA light bulb) and because I
have a lot of stuff I use a 10 watt lamp to create a 830 mA load which
is about what I pull.

If you are testing every 10 minutes you are working kind of hard. My
battery, a 12120, takes hours to run down.

11.5 volts cut off is way too conservative. The published data curve
for the 12120 ................................wait, I am wrong. I
looked it up and I use 11.8 volts. but 11.5 is fine as well.

I use an Eagle Tree MicroPower V3 logger and get a computer generated
log of the discharge. Then I fly with the logger and get an idea of
my real-world consumption and compare the two. Works great. Others
use a pretty common logger with a built-in load, I prefer the Eagle
Tree because it will log a flight one day and a battery the next.

Do you do your test in cold air to simulate high altitude, or just
room temp?

ps. If you are replacing the 12120 battery look at the 12140 or the
12150. Same size, heavier, and more capacity.

Brian

[Nyal Williams[_2_]]

I know nothing about battery technology. I take my batteries to Battery
Plus, who claims that they can recondition batteries and bring them up to
their proper rating. Sometimes I get a battery back with the indication
that it is at say 113%; if the work brings it back to less than 95% there
is no charge and I throw it away. The cost last year was $5.00 per
battery that came out well.

Am I getting good value?


At 00:40 17 March 2011, brianDG303 wrote:
>On Mar 16, 4:00=A0pm, ContestID67 wrote:
>> Each year I like to test my batteries and replace those that do not
>> have enough capacity for a typical flight of 3-4-ish hours with all
>> the electronics running. I run two batteries so that removes a worry
>> about loosing power during a record flight. =A0But how do you perform
a
>> good real world test?
>>
>> My test is basically connecting a resistive load to the battery,
>> measure the battery voltage every 10 minutes or so. =A0Then wait for
the
>> battery voltage to drop to 11.5Vdc (an arbitratry but safe value).
>> Simple.
>>
>> I create an Excel spreadsheet that explains all this - the testing
>> that I perform, the test rig that I used and templates for gathering
>> the data and then graphing the results. =A0
>Seehttp://aviation.derosaweb.=
>net/#batterytest.
>>
>> I=92d love to hear any comments that you might have. =A0Enjoy.
>>
>> John DeRosa
>> Johnderosaweb.com
>
>John,
>I have used that method and it works well, but.............
>First, as I am sure you know, you want a load that is similar to the
>real-life load. I use a 12 volt lamp (AKA light bulb) and because I
>have a lot of stuff I use a 10 watt lamp to create a 830 mA load which
>is about what I pull.
>
>If you are testing every 10 minutes you are working kind of hard. My
>battery, a 12120, takes hours to run down.
>
>11.5 volts cut off is way too conservative. The published data curve
>for the 12120 ................................wait, I am wrong. I
>looked it up and I use 11.8 volts. but 11.5 is fine as well.
>
>I use an Eagle Tree MicroPower V3 logger and get a computer generated
>log of the discharge. Then I fly with the logger and get an idea of
>my real-world consumption and compare the two. Works great. Others
>use a pretty common logger with a built-in load, I prefer the Eagle
>Tree because it will log a flight one day and a battery the next.
>
>Do you do your test in cold air to simulate high altitude, or just
>room temp?
>
>ps. If you are replacing the 12120 battery look at the 12140 or the
>12150. Same size, heavier, and more capacity.
>
>Brian
>
>

[Mark]

I've just done my annual battery testing and my process is similar.

I happened to automate the process and as such it works like this. I
have a small PLC that does the work. The battery is connected to a
resistive load to generate a roughly 0.6 Amp draw. The PLC looks at
the battery voltage once a minute until it reaches 10.5 volts ( I
chose 10.5 because I did want to stress the battery a little). The
PLC records the total number of minutes and once the 10.5 volt limit
is reached the load is disconnected and the battery is switched over
to a charger for a recharge. I can start a "test" at any time and
come back later and read the run time. With the battery going back on
charge automatically, I'm not worried about it sitting discharged at
the end of the test.

Now for the interesting part...

Back in march of 2008 I bought 2 new 7AH standard sized batteries and
tested them "new". They both went approximately 540 minutes. I
purchased them from an electronics supply store in town. In 2009 and
2010 I tested and the run times were very similar showing little
capacity loss.

My brother had heard from another club member that Academy here in
Houston actually sold better batteries and he bought one for his
glider. I loaned him my tester and his battery went 800 minutes.
This is a roughly 50% increase in duration so I went and bought one
initially, tested it and found mine also tested at 800 minutes and so
I bought a second and replaced both of my batteries. The second one
initially tested at 730 minutes, but with 3 cycles came up to 800
minutes as well. On a whim, I weighed the original 2008 batteries and
the new ones and found that the new ones weighed something like a 1/2
pound more, both of them.

Also in my testing this spring I ran my 17Ah battery on the tester and
replaced it after it demonstrated some unusual performance. On the
first test it ran only 300 minutes, but when I noticed it had run only
a short time I restarted the test without recharging it. It ran 500
more minutes and then quit again. I again started the test without
recharging and it went another 400 minutes. While I'm not sure why
that was happening, I am convinced that it's not a condition I want to
chance while flying so in this case I think the tester identified a
potentially suspect battery and $40 to replace it is cheap insurance.

I'll try to get the brand info for the batteries I bought at Academy
and re-post. Something like "wildgame" or similar... Cost $21.

Mark

[SP]

On Mar 16, 7:01*pm, Nyal Williams > wrote:
> I know nothing about battery technology. *I take my batteries to Battery
> Plus, who claims that they can recondition batteries and bring them up to
> their proper rating. *Sometimes I get a battery back with the indication
> that it is at say 113%; if the work brings it back to less than 95% there
> is no charge and I throw it away. *The cost last year was $5.00 per
> battery that came out well.
>
> Am I getting good value?
>
> At 00:40 17 March 2011, brianDG303 wrote:
>
> >On Mar 16, 4:00=A0pm, ContestID67 *wrote:
> >> Each year I like to test my batteries and replace those that do not
> >> have enough capacity for a typical flight of 3-4-ish hours with all
> >> the electronics running. I run two batteries so that removes a worry
> >> about loosing power during a record flight. =A0But how do you perform
> a
> >> good real world test?
>
> >> My test is basically connecting a resistive load to the battery,
> >> measure the battery voltage every 10 minutes or so. =A0Then wait for
> the
> >> battery voltage to drop to 11.5Vdc (an arbitratry but safe value).
> >> Simple.
>
> >> I create an Excel spreadsheet that explains all this - the testing
> >> that I perform, the test rig that I used and templates for gathering
> >> the data and then graphing the results. =A0
> >Seehttp://aviation.derosaweb.=
> >net/#batterytest.
>
> >> I=92d love to hear any comments that you might have. =A0Enjoy.
>
> >> John DeRosa
> >> Johnderosaweb.com
>
> >John,
> >I have used that method and it works well, but.............
> >First, as I am sure you know, you want a load that is similar to the
> >real-life load. *I use a 12 volt lamp (AKA light bulb) and because I
> >have a lot of stuff I use a 10 watt lamp to create a 830 mA load which
> >is about what I pull.
>
> >If you are testing every 10 minutes you are working kind of hard. *My
> >battery, a 12120, takes hours to run down.
>
> >11.5 volts cut off is way too conservative. *The published data curve
> >for the 12120 ................................wait, I am wrong. I
> >looked it up and I use 11.8 volts. but 11.5 is fine as well.
>
> >I use an Eagle Tree MicroPower V3 logger and get a computer generated
> >log of the discharge. *Then I fly with the logger and get an idea of
> >my real-world consumption and compare the two. *Works great. *Others
> >use a pretty common logger with a built-in load, I prefer the Eagle
> >Tree because it will log a flight one day and a battery the next.
>
> >Do you do your test in cold air to simulate high altitude, or just
> >room temp?
>
> >ps. If you are replacing the 12120 battery look at the 12140 or the
> >12150. *Same size, heavier, and more capacity.
>
> >Brian

Has anyone tried a LiFePO4 battery such as the Shorai brand that can
be seen at:
http://www.batterystuff.com/batteries/motorcycle/LFX14L2-BS12.html ?

Weight of the 12v 14ah LiFePO4 battery is 1.6 lb vs 13 lb for a sealed
lead acid battery. And, it's smaller.

Steve

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 3/16/2011 9:20 PM, SP wrote:

> Has anyone tried a LiFePO4 battery such as the Shorai brand that can
> be seen at:
> http://www.batterystuff.com/batteries/motorcycle/LFX14L2-BS12.html ?
>
> Weight of the 12v 14ah LiFePO4 battery is 1.6 lb vs 13 lb for a sealed
> lead acid battery. And, it's smaller.

I think you would be very disappointed in the amphour capacity of the
battery. From their website:

"The internal "completely discharged" capacity of a Shorai battery is
1/3 the rated "PbEq" capacity"

So the battery has only 14/3 = 4.7 amphours with a full discharge. They
are offering it as *starter* battery, and the "PbEq" (lead-acid
equivalent) rating indicates it will perform that task as well as
lead-acid battery with that amphour rating.

But it sure looked good at first...

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

[James Thomson[_2_]]

>I've just done my annual battery testing and my process is similar.
>
>I happened to automate the process and as such it works like this. I
>have a small PLC that does the work. The battery is connected to a
>resistive load to generate a roughly 0.6 Amp draw. The PLC looks at
>the battery voltage once a minute until it reaches 10.5 volts ( I
>chose 10.5 because I did want to stress the battery a little). The
>PLC records the total number of minutes and once the 10.5 volt limit
>is reached the load is disconnected and the battery is switched over
>to a charger for a recharge. I can start a "test" at any time and
>come back later and read the run time. With the battery going back on
>charge automatically, I'm not worried about it sitting discharged at
>the end of the test.

You are going the right way with this sort of a test. The meaningful
test is to check whether the battery is still performing as the maker
intended. Apply a load which will discharge it in 20 hours and find out
how long it takes for the voltage to drop to 10.5 volts (1.75v per cell).
The 20 hours and the 10.5 volts are the standard conditions used by
battery makers when claiming their capacities.

Having an automated tester will save you the boredom of watching a
voltmeter!

If you discharge a battery faster than 20 hours, on test or in the air,
you won't get the nominal ampere-hours out of the battery. If your
electronics (especially some radios) don't work down to 10.5 volts then
don't count on the endurance predicted from ampere-hours divided by load
- and if you fly at low ambients you will lose yet more capacity.

Some battery makers websites, eg Yuasa, have a lot of useful information
on how batteries behave with varying loads, at low temperatures, and when
subjected to repeated charge and discharge cycles.

[Andy[_1_]]

On Mar 16, 10:37*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> On 3/16/2011 9:20 PM, SP wrote:
>
> > Has anyone tried a LiFePO4 battery such as the Shorai brand that can
> > be seen at:
> >http://www.batterystuff.com/batteries/motorcycle/LFX14L2-BS12.html*?
>
> > Weight of the 12v 14ah LiFePO4 battery is 1.6 lb vs 13 lb for a sealed
> > lead acid battery. And, it's smaller.
>
> I think you would be very disappointed in the amphour capacity of the
> battery. From their website:
>
> "The internal "completely discharged" capacity of a Shorai battery is
> 1/3 the rated "PbEq" capacity"
>
> So the battery has only 14/3 = 4.7 amphours with a full discharge. They
> are offering it as *starter* battery, and the "PbEq" (lead-acid
> equivalent) rating indicates it will perform that task as well as
> lead-acid battery with that amphour rating.
>
> But it sure looked good at first...
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
> email me)
> - "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarmhttp://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

There you go with amphors again! ;)

Andy

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 3/17/2011 7:13 AM, Andy wrote:

> There you go with amphors again! ;)

It's a hard habit to break!

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 3/17/2011 2:11 AM, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:

>> My test is basically connecting a resistive load to the battery,
>> measure the battery voltage every 10 minutes or so. Then wait for the
>> battery voltage to drop to 11.5Vdc (an arbitratry but safe value).
>> Simple.
>>
>> I create an Excel spreadsheet that explains all this - the testing
>> that I perform, the test rig that I used and templates for gathering
>> the data and then graphing the results. See http://aviation.derosaweb.net/#bat
>> terytest.
>>
>> I’d love to hear any comments that you might have. Enjoy.
>>
>> John DeRosa
>> John<at>derosaweb.com
>
>
> http://www.actmeters.com/
>
> Gives a result in seconds.

The "GOLD-PLUS Intelligent Battery Tester" on the site has interesting
claims. Are there any reports from users on how well it works,
comparison tests with the usual constant current discharge method, and
details of the principles of it's method? Without more info, the ~$400
price is a bit off-putting.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[ContestID67[_2_]]

Thanks for all your comments...here are some of my comments on your
comments!

"11.5 volts cut off is way too conservative"
- Probably true. But I am an engineer and being conservative is
inbred. I just don't know what devices people are using. Older
radios don't even like anything less than 12Vdc - thus the reason you
see those odd combo batteries to get to something like 13.6Vdc. Most
moden electronics can survive down to 11Vdc and lower. So 11.5 seems
like a reasonable middle ground.

"I happened to automate the process and as such it works like this. I
have a small PLC that does the work."
"Eagle Tree MicroPower V3 logger"
"http://www.actmeters.com/"
- These are all wonderful tools which I have also used. But for those
that only test a couple of batteries once a year, these systems are
something that most people cannot justify - either too expensive or
too complicated to make. My $0.02.

"testing every 10 minutes you are working kind of hard. My battery, a
12120, takes hours to run down. "
- I guess I like nice smooth curves on my graphs. ;-) Call me
crazy. And yes it takes hours. But I do this while doing my day job
(from home) so I just glance over once in a while and take a reading.
Simple. Your mileage may vary. To speed things up does using a 2x
load and then double the resulting run time make sense?

"Do you do your test in cold air to simulate high altitude, or just
room temp?"
- Room temperature. Flying in the Midwest I don't have much of a
temperature swing to worry about. Not to mention I don't have a
temperature chamber handy. But I understand your concern for the wave
flight types. A refrigerator or ice chest? Too cold? How much is a
lead-acid battery's chemistry changed by temperature? Hmmmm.

"Also in my testing this spring I ran my 17Ah battery on the tester
and replaced it after it demonstrated some unusual performance. On
the first test it ran only 300 minutes, but when I noticed it had run
only a short time I restarted the test without recharging it. It ran
500 more minutes and then quit again. I again started the test
without recharging and it went another 400 minutes."
- I have noticed that if you take a large load off of a lead-acid gel
cell battery the voltage will recover somewhat. I don't know the
chemistry to understand why. So I wonder if you battery test rig is
getting fooled into releasing the load at your trip voltage, then the
battery recovers, and you repeat the cycle. Just a thought.

"If you are replacing the 12120 battery, look at the 12140 or the
12150. Same size, heavier, and more capacity."
- Thanks for the idea. I replace a battery per year in my set of
four. Two are on charge and two are in the glider at any one time.
So during my next annual battery buying time I will keep that in
mind.

Lastly - What I am trying to do is create a system of battery testing
that everyone can use with tools that they probably have around the
house or can purchase cheaply. All you need is a pencil, paper, a few
cheap resistors and a voltmeter. What are digical voltmeters going
for these days? $10?

Thanks again,
John DeRosa

[ContestID67[_2_]]

One other thought for the automated "instant" testers - While this may
indicate the Ah capacity of the battery, is that an accurate
indication of the often asked question "But, how long will it last?"
Literally, does it tell me how many minutes do I have between full
charge and my minimum voltage threshold? There is certainly a
corrolation between Ah capacity and the duration of actual use, but is
there a formula?

Thanks once again, John DeRosa

[brianDG303[_2_]]

On Mar 18, 8:01*am, ContestID67 > wrote:
> One other thought for the automated "instant" testers - While this may
> indicate the Ah capacity of the battery, is that an accurate
> indication of the often asked question "But, how long will it last?"
> Literally, does it tell me how many minutes do I have between full
> charge and my minimum voltage threshold? *There is certainly a
> corrolation between Ah capacity and the duration of actual use, but is
> there a formula?
>
> Thanks once again, John DeRosa

Hi John,
I expect just about everyone that has a fancy set-up started with a
lamp, a voltmeter, and clock. It is a very accurate system at a very
low cost, I suspect more accurate than the "GOLD-PLUS Intelligent
Battery Tester". Just takes a lot longer.

Every battery has a certain Ah capacity at a given load. For example,
the 12120 battery is rated to deliver 1 amp for 14 hours (not all
batteries have such a lovely symmetry to their spec) and is rated to
deliver 24 amps for 12 minutes and 2.4 amps for 4 hours. Having a
discharge curve is useful. Looking at that curve I see the battery
will provide your load of .6 amps for about 17 hours. I have a
transponder, two varios one of which has an illuminated display, a
very bright LX Minimap, and still keep everything to .85 amp. So
according to that curve I'll get 10 or 12 hours from a new battery,
less as it gets cold or old. I plan to acquire a 12150 (15 Ah) and
also have a 2.4 Ah back-up I can switch to.

Is that what you were asking about as far as a formula? Really I
think you want to match the load (light bulb) to be as close to your
glider load as you can, or a little more. Then the length of your
test will be the same as the duration of your battery in flight. The
other consideration is that your battery will last much longer if you
don't discharge it all the to flat very often. In theory you could
take a 12120 and never fly it down past 12 volts and it would last
quite a few years.

Brian

[John Scott[_3_]]

> cheap resistors and a voltmeter. What are digical voltmeters going
> for these days? $10?
>
> Thanks again,
> John DeRosa

$3 to Free if you watc the specials at Harbor Freight!

John

[Westbender]

A little off-topic, but worth saying.

The best way to get the longest life from a lead-acid battery is to
always keep it topped off. It's amazing to me how many people use
their batteries, then let them set in various states of discharge,
then charge it the night before they go flying again. Or they don't
charge it at all until their instruments quit. Some might not know
there are chemical differences in a battery at different states of
charge. The more you keep it topped off, the longer it will continue
to perform well.

I have two 7ah batteries that I alternate. The first thing I do when I
get home from flying is put it back on the charger. Five years old and
going strong. I test them once a year with my West Mountian Radio
battery analyzer. They're almost as healthy as when they were brand
new.

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Fri, 18 Mar 2011 12:51:34 -0700, Westbender wrote:

> I have two 7ah batteries that I alternate. The first thing I do when I
> get home from flying is put it back on the charger. Five years old and
> going strong. I test them once a year with my West Mountian Radio
> battery analyzer. They're almost as healthy as when they were brand new.
>
I do exactly the same except that:

- I carry both my batteries on every flight (one drives radio and T&B,
the other drives varios and PNA.

- I have a pair of 3 stage mains lead-acid chargers for the after-flight
recharge.

- I do the annual cycle and capacity measurement with a Pro-Peak
Prodigy II model flying charger.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Andy[_1_]]

On Mar 18, 8:52*am, brianDG303 > wrote:
> On Mar 18, 8:01*am, ContestID67 > wrote:
>
> > One other thought for the automated "instant" testers - While this may
> > indicate the Ah capacity of the battery, is that an accurate
> > indication of the often asked question "But, how long will it last?"
> > Literally, does it tell me how many minutes do I have between full
> > charge and my minimum voltage threshold? *There is certainly a
> > corrolation between Ah capacity and the duration of actual use, but is
> > there a formula?
>
> > Thanks once again, John DeRosa
>
> Hi John,
> I expect just about everyone that has a fancy set-up started with a
> lamp, a voltmeter, and clock. *It is a very accurate system at a very
> low cost, I suspect more accurate than the "GOLD-PLUS Intelligent
> Battery Tester". *Just takes a lot longer.
>
> Every battery has a certain Ah capacity at a given load. *For example,
> the 12120 battery is rated to deliver 1 amp for 14 hours (not all
> batteries have such a lovely symmetry to their spec) and is rated to
> deliver 24 amps for 12 minutes and 2.4 amps for 4 hours. *Having a
> discharge curve is useful. *Looking at that curve I see the battery
> will provide your load of .6 amps for about 17 hours. *I have a
> transponder, two varios one of which has an illuminated display, a
> very bright LX Minimap, and still keep everything to .85 amp. *So
> according to that curve I'll get 10 or 12 hours from a new battery,
> less as it gets cold or old. *I plan to acquire a 12150 (15 Ah) and
> also have a 2.4 Ah back-up I can switch to.
>
> Is that what you were asking about as far as a formula? *Really I
> think you want to match the load (light bulb) to be as close to your
> glider load as you can, or a little more. *Then the length of your
> test will be the same as the duration of your battery in flight. *The
> other consideration is that your battery will last much longer if you
> don't discharge it all the to flat very often. *In theory you could
> take a 12120 and never fly it down past 12 volts and it would last
> quite a few years.
>
> Brian

One thing to consider if using a lightbulb as a load is that the
resistance is current dependent. You will not get quite the same
discharge curve as you would using a fixed resistance load.

The variable resistance characteristic of lamps was made use of in
some battery charging circuits. A series lamp can be used to limit
current when the battery under charge is at low voltage but still
allow it to reach full charge voltage. Sure, this is late 70's
technology but it worked quite well before exotic computer controlled
chargers were available.

I still have my RST crew radio that used 2 car light bulbs in the
charging circuit. A relay split the 12v pack into 2 6v packs for
charging when plugged into the crew car.

Andy

[Andy[_1_]]

On Mar 18, 9:12*am, "John Scott" > wrote:

> $3 to Free if you watc the specials at Harbor Freight!

Just be sure you don't get one with a photo-voltaic display! I had
one that drove me nuts until I realized that the readings it gave were
different in sunlight than if used indoors. Just shade the display
and watch the reading change.

Andy

[Papa3]

On Mar 18, 3:51*pm, Westbender > wrote:
> A little off-topic, but worth saying.
>
> The best way to get the longest life from a lead-acid battery is to
> always keep it topped off. It's amazing to me how many people use
> their batteries, then let them set in various states of discharge,
> then charge it the night before they go flying again. Or they don't
> charge it at all until their instruments quit. Some might not know
> there are chemical differences in a battery at different states of
> charge. The more you keep it topped off, the longer it will continue
> to perform well.
>
> I have two 7ah batteries that I alternate. The first thing I do when I
> get home from flying is put it back on the charger. Five years old and
> going strong. I test them once a year with my West Mountian Radio
> battery analyzer. They're almost as healthy as when they were brand
> new.

What does the group think about desulfautors? I've done some
searching and see lots of widely varying opinions (which I suspect
I'll get here as well).

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 3/18/2011 9:17 PM, Papa3 wrote:

>
> What does the group think about desulfautors? I've done some
> searching and see lots of widely varying opinions (which I suspect
> I'll get here as well).

I'm skeptical about their value, because the only place I've seen them
touted is by the people that sell them, and I've never seen a technical
manual from Powersonic, Yuasa, Panasonic, etc., for SLA batteries that
even mentions them, much less suggest them. Instead, the manuals and
battery datasheets always recommend three phase chargers as the best
type of charger. Approximately...

Phase 1: constant current until 14.5 volts is reached
Phase 2: constant voltage 14.5 until the charge current drops off to 2%
of amp-hour rating (e.g., 7 AH x 2% = 0.140 amps)
Phase 3: constant voltage at 13.7 volts

But, I'm not aware that they do any harm, either.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[Whiskey Delta]

On Mar 19, 1:16*am, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> On 3/18/2011 9:17 PM, Papa3 wrote:
>
>
>
> > What does the group think about desulfautors? *I've done some
> > searching and see lots of widely varying opinions (which I suspect
> > I'll get here as well).
>
> I'm skeptical about their value, because the only place I've seen them
> touted is by the people that sell them, and I've never seen a technical
> manual from Powersonic, Yuasa, Panasonic, etc., for SLA batteries that
> even mentions them, much less suggest them. Instead, the manuals and
> battery datasheets always recommend three phase chargers as the best
> type of charger. Approximately...
>
> Phase 1: constant current until 14.5 volts is reached
> Phase 2: constant voltage 14.5 until the charge current drops off to 2%
> of amp-hour rating (e.g., 7 AH x 2% = 0.140 amps)
> Phase 3: constant voltage at 13.7 volts
>
> But, I'm not aware that they do any harm, either.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
> email me)

What are the favored battery purchase sites in the USA?

WD

[Paul Remde]

Hi Eric,

I'm curious, what brand and model number charger do you use that offers
those 3 charging phases. I may be interested in selling them if I can find
a good product at a good price.

I sell the Xenotronix charges. They have proven extremely reliable and seem
to take good care of glider batteries. I think they are 2 stage (phase)
chargers.
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/xenotronix.htm

I sold the BatteryMINDer desulphating chargers for a while, but they didn't
sell well. They are more expensive and it is unknown whether they really
make batteries last longer.

I sell the Power-Sonic batteries and have had good results and feedback on
them.
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/powersonic.htm

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

"Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
...
> On 3/18/2011 9:17 PM, Papa3 wrote:
>
>>
>> What does the group think about desulfautors? I've done some
>> searching and see lots of widely varying opinions (which I suspect
>> I'll get here as well).
>
> I'm skeptical about their value, because the only place I've seen them
> touted is by the people that sell them, and I've never seen a technical
> manual from Powersonic, Yuasa, Panasonic, etc., for SLA batteries that
> even mentions them, much less suggest them. Instead, the manuals and
> battery datasheets always recommend three phase chargers as the best type
> of charger. Approximately...
>
> Phase 1: constant current until 14.5 volts is reached
> Phase 2: constant voltage 14.5 until the charge current drops off to 2% of
> amp-hour rating (e.g., 7 AH x 2% = 0.140 amps)
> Phase 3: constant voltage at 13.7 volts
>
> But, I'm not aware that they do any harm, either.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email
> me)

[Westbender]

On Mar 19, 12:07*pm, "Paul Remde" > wrote:
> Hi Eric,
>
> I'm curious, what brand and model number charger do you use that offers
> those 3 charging phases. *I may be interested in selling them if I can find
> a good product at a good price.
>
> I sell the Xenotronix charges. *They have proven extremely reliable and seem
> to take good care of glider batteries. *I think they are 2 stage (phase)
> chargers.http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/xenotronix.htm
>
> I sold the BatteryMINDer desulphating chargers for a while, but they didn't
> sell well. *They are more expensive and it is unknown whether they really
> make batteries last longer.
>
> I sell the Power-Sonic batteries and have had good results and feedback on
> them.http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/powersonic.htm
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Paul Remde
> Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
>
> "Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > On 3/18/2011 9:17 PM, Papa3 wrote:
>
> >> What does the group think about desulfautors? *I've done some
> >> searching and see lots of widely varying opinions (which I suspect
> >> I'll get here as well).
>
> > I'm skeptical about their value, because the only place I've seen them
> > touted is by the people that sell them, and I've never seen a technical
> > manual from Powersonic, Yuasa, Panasonic, etc., for SLA batteries that
> > even mentions them, much less suggest them. Instead, the manuals and
> > battery datasheets always recommend three phase chargers as the best type
> > of charger. Approximately...
>
> > Phase 1: constant current until 14.5 volts is reached
> > Phase 2: constant voltage 14.5 until the charge current drops off to 2% of
> > amp-hour rating (e.g., 7 AH x 2% = 0.140 amps)
> > Phase 3: constant voltage at 13.7 volts
>
> > But, I'm not aware that they do any harm, either.
>
> > --
> > Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email
> > me)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I've been using the Power Sonic dual-rate, automatic charger
(PSC-12800A-C) with satisfactory results. Ultra-simple, inexpensive
and foolproof with the automatic float/trickle mode. Over-charging is
impossible. Although I don't take my batteries down very far and they
never sit in a discharged state. So a lot of my success is due to my
use/maintenance habits, not necessarily the equipment.

http://www.power-sonic.com/images/powersonic/chargers/146.pdf

[Westbender]

Sorry, I meant to clip the quoted text...

[Paul Remde]

Hi,

Those Power-Sonic A-C (A.K.A. "C") series chargers do look interesting. I
like that they work with a variety of AC input ranges. I found a different
(newer?) version of the same brochure here:
http://www.power-sonic.com/images/powersonic/chargers/AC_Series_Chargers_10_Dec_1.pdf

It is also interesting that the Power-Sonic A-F Series charges includes
charges that look identical to the Xenotronix chargers I sell. I which
brand private labels them from the other manufacturer.
http://www.power-sonic.com/images/powersonic/chargers/A-F_Series_Chargers_10_Sept_27.pdf

I need to check into pricing with my Power-Sonic rep.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.


"Westbender" > wrote in message
...
On Mar 19, 12:07 pm, "Paul Remde" > wrote:
> Hi Eric,
>
> I'm curious, what brand and model number charger do you use that offers
> those 3 charging phases. I may be interested in selling them if I can find
> a good product at a good price.
>
> I sell the Xenotronix charges. They have proven extremely reliable and
> seem
> to take good care of glider batteries. I think they are 2 stage (phase)
> chargers.http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/xenotronix.htm
>
> I sold the BatteryMINDer desulphating chargers for a while, but they
> didn't
> sell well. They are more expensive and it is unknown whether they really
> make batteries last longer.
>
> I sell the Power-Sonic batteries and have had good results and feedback on
> them.http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/powersonic.htm
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Paul Remde
> Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
>
> "Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > On 3/18/2011 9:17 PM, Papa3 wrote:
>
> >> What does the group think about desulfautors? I've done some
> >> searching and see lots of widely varying opinions (which I suspect
> >> I'll get here as well).
>
> > I'm skeptical about their value, because the only place I've seen them
> > touted is by the people that sell them, and I've never seen a technical
> > manual from Powersonic, Yuasa, Panasonic, etc., for SLA batteries that
> > even mentions them, much less suggest them. Instead, the manuals and
> > battery datasheets always recommend three phase chargers as the best
> > type
> > of charger. Approximately...
>
> > Phase 1: constant current until 14.5 volts is reached
> > Phase 2: constant voltage 14.5 until the charge current drops off to 2%
> > of
> > amp-hour rating (e.g., 7 AH x 2% = 0.140 amps)
> > Phase 3: constant voltage at 13.7 volts
>
> > But, I'm not aware that they do any harm, either.
>
> > --
> > Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
> > email
> > me)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I've been using the Power Sonic dual-rate, automatic charger
(PSC-12800A-C) with satisfactory results. Ultra-simple, inexpensive
and foolproof with the automatic float/trickle mode. Over-charging is
impossible. Although I don't take my batteries down very far and they
never sit in a discharged state. So a lot of my success is due to my
use/maintenance habits, not necessarily the equipment.

http://www.power-sonic.com/images/powersonic/chargers/146.pdf

[Richard[_9_]]

On Mar 19, 9:33*am, Whiskey Delta > wrote:
> On Mar 19, 1:16*am, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 3/18/2011 9:17 PM, Papa3 wrote:
>
> > > What does the group think about desulfautors? *I've done some
> > > searching and see lots of widely varying opinions (which I suspect
> > > I'll get here as well).
>
> > I'm skeptical about their value, because the only place I've seen them
> > touted is by the people that sell them, and I've never seen a technical
> > manual from Powersonic, Yuasa, Panasonic, etc., for SLA batteries that
> > even mentions them, much less suggest them. Instead, the manuals and
> > battery datasheets always recommend three phase chargers as the best
> > type of charger. Approximately...
>
> > Phase 1: constant current until 14.5 volts is reached
> > Phase 2: constant voltage 14.5 until the charge current drops off to 2%
> > of amp-hour rating (e.g., 7 AH x 2% = 0.140 amps)
> > Phase 3: constant voltage at 13.7 volts
>
> > But, I'm not aware that they do any harm, either.
>
> > --
> > Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
> > email me)
>
> What are the favored battery purchase sites in the USA?
>
> WD- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

http://www.atbatt.com/

Very reasonable prices, many choices for batteries and chargers.

Free shipping if you order over $75

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 3/19/2011 10:07 AM, Paul Remde wrote:
> Hi Eric,
>
> I'm curious, what brand and model number charger do you use that offers
> those 3 charging phases. I may be interested in selling them if I can
> find a good product at a good price.
>
> I sell the Xenotronix charges. They have proven extremely reliable and
> seem to take good care of glider batteries. I think they are 2 stage
> (phase) chargers.
> http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/xenotronix.htm

I use a Xenotronix 4 amp charger - 10 years now. They say they are "two
stage", but their operation is usually called "three stage" or "three
phase". They have the phases I listed: constant current, charge, float.

The Batteryminder 12 volt, 2/4/8 charger seems good, and though I
haven't used one, some motorglider pilots like it. I like the selection
of currents, which fits the different batteries I have.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[Paul Remde]

Hi Eric,

Thanks. I'm a little surprised you use the 4A charger. The largest one I
sell so far is a 2 A charger. Are you charging multiple batteries with the
same charger at once? Or do you have a very large capacity battery?

Best Regards,

Paul Remde

"Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
...
> On 3/19/2011 10:07 AM, Paul Remde wrote:
>> Hi Eric,
>>
>> I'm curious, what brand and model number charger do you use that offers
>> those 3 charging phases. I may be interested in selling them if I can
>> find a good product at a good price.
>>
>> I sell the Xenotronix charges. They have proven extremely reliable and
>> seem to take good care of glider batteries. I think they are 2 stage
>> (phase) chargers.
>> http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/xenotronix.htm
>
> I use a Xenotronix 4 amp charger - 10 years now. They say they are "two
> stage", but their operation is usually called "three stage" or "three
> phase". They have the phases I listed: constant current, charge, float.
>
> The Batteryminder 12 volt, 2/4/8 charger seems good, and though I haven't
> used one, some motorglider pilots like it. I like the selection of
> currents, which fits the different batteries I have.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email
> me)

[T8]

I've been using this http://tinyurl.com/65q9tmb with good results on 7
- 14 AH batteries.

-T8

[Westbender]

On Mar 19, 3:43*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> On 3/19/2011 10:07 AM, Paul Remde wrote:
>
> > Hi Eric,
>
> > I'm curious, what brand and model number charger do you use that offers
> > those 3 charging phases. I may be interested in selling them if I can
> > find a good product at a good price.
>
> > I sell the Xenotronix charges. They have proven extremely reliable and
> > seem to take good care of glider batteries. I think they are 2 stage
> > (phase) chargers.
> >http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/xenotronix.htm
>
> I use a Xenotronix 4 amp charger - 10 years now. They say they are "two
> stage", but their operation is usually called "three stage" or "three
> phase". They have the phases I listed: constant current, charge, float.
>
> The Batteryminder 12 volt, 2/4/8 charger seems good, and though I
> haven't used one, some motorglider pilots like it. I like the selection
> of currents, which fits the different batteries I have.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
> email me)

Yes, the PowerSonic "A-C" chargers work the same way. There's really
three "phases" even though they call them dual rate.

See the last page in this document:
http://www.power-sonic.com/images/powersonic/literature/SLA_Instructions/Operating_instructions_for_AC-Series_chargers_11_Jan_12.pdf

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 3/19/2011 5:40 PM, Paul Remde wrote:
> Hi Eric,
>
> Thanks. I'm a little surprised you use the 4A charger. The largest one I
> sell so far is a 2 A charger. Are you charging multiple batteries with
> the same charger at once? Or do you have a very large capacity battery?

The ASH 26 E can carry two 12 volt, 18 AH batteries, which I do. These
batteries can be charged at 4 amps; since I charge them in parallel, I
could actually use an 8 amp charger, and that's one reason I'm attracted
to the Batteryminder 12248.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 3/19/2011 5:40 PM, Paul Remde wrote:
> Hi Eric,
>
> Thanks. I'm a little surprised you use the 4A charger. The largest one I
> sell so far is a 2 A charger. Are you charging multiple batteries with
> the same charger at once? Or do you have a very large capacity battery?

The ASH 26 E can carry two 12 volt, 18 AH batteries, which I do. These
batteries can be charged at 4 amps; since I charge them in parallel, I
could actually use an 8 amp charger, and that's one reason I'm attracted
to the Batteryminder 12248.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

[Westbender]

I should have posted this link before. Here's an excellent document
describing all aspects of SLA batteries from construction to use/care:

http://www.power-sonic.com/images/powersonic/technical/1277751263_20100627-TechManual-Lo.pdf

[Paul Remde]

Hi,

Nice document. I'll add that to my Power-Sonic web page.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

"Westbender" > wrote in message
...
>I should have posted this link before. Here's an excellent document
> describing all aspects of SLA batteries from construction to use/care:
>
> http://www.power-sonic.com/images/powersonic/technical/1277751263_20100627-TechManual-Lo.pdf

[Herbert kilian]

On Mar 16, 11:20*pm, SP > wrote:
> On Mar 16, 7:01*pm, Nyal Williams > wrote:
>
>
>
> > I know nothing about battery technology. *I take my batteries to Battery
> > Plus, who claims that they can recondition batteries and bring them up to
> > their proper rating. *Sometimes I get a battery back with the indication
> > that it is at say 113%; if the work brings it back to less than 95% there
> > is no charge and I throw it away. *The cost last year was $5.00 per
> > battery that came out well.
>
> > Am I getting good value?
>
> > At 00:40 17 March 2011, brianDG303 wrote:
>
> > >On Mar 16, 4:00=A0pm, ContestID67 *wrote:
> > >> Each year I like to test my batteries and replace those that do not
> > >> have enough capacity for a typical flight of 3-4-ish hours with all
> > >> the electronics running. I run two batteries so that removes a worry
> > >> about loosing power during a record flight. =A0But how do you perform
> > a
> > >> good real world test?
>
> > >> My test is basically connecting a resistive load to the battery,
> > >> measure the battery voltage every 10 minutes or so. =A0Then wait for
> > the
> > >> battery voltage to drop to 11.5Vdc (an arbitratry but safe value).
> > >> Simple.
>
> > >> I create an Excel spreadsheet that explains all this - the testing
> > >> that I perform, the test rig that I used and templates for gathering
> > >> the data and then graphing the results. =A0
> > >Seehttp://aviation.derosaweb.=
> > >net/#batterytest.
>
> > >> I=92d love to hear any comments that you might have. =A0Enjoy.
>
> > >> John DeRosa
> > >> Johnderosaweb.com
>
> > >John,
> > >I have used that method and it works well, but.............
> > >First, as I am sure you know, you want a load that is similar to the
> > >real-life load. *I use a 12 volt lamp (AKA light bulb) and because I
> > >have a lot of stuff I use a 10 watt lamp to create a 830 mA load which
> > >is about what I pull.
>
> > >If you are testing every 10 minutes you are working kind of hard. *My
> > >battery, a 12120, takes hours to run down.
>
> > >11.5 volts cut off is way too conservative. *The published data curve
> > >for the 12120 ................................wait, I am wrong. I
> > >looked it up and I use 11.8 volts. but 11.5 is fine as well.
>
> > >I use an Eagle Tree MicroPower V3 logger and get a computer generated
> > >log of the discharge. *Then I fly with the logger and get an idea of
> > >my real-world consumption and compare the two. *Works great. *Others
> > >use a pretty common logger with a built-in load, I prefer the Eagle
> > >Tree because it will log a flight one day and a battery the next.
>
> > >Do you do your test in cold air to simulate high altitude, or just
> > >room temp?
>
> > >ps. If you are replacing the 12120 battery look at the 12140 or the
> > >12150. *Same size, heavier, and more capacity.
>
> > >Brian
>
> Has anyone tried a LiFePO4 battery such as the Shorai brand that can
> be seen at:http://www.batterystuff.com/batteries/motorcycle/LFX14L2-BS12.html*?
>
> Weight of the 12v 14ah LiFePO4 battery is 1.6 lb vs 13 lb for a sealed
> lead acid battery. And, it's smaller.
>
> Steve

Steve,

I just bought a 4500 mAh 4-cell LiFe battery from Hobby King, the
Hongkong supplier of RC equipment that I have bought LiPo's from
before. Here is the link:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=16201
I got two of these and connected them is series. Discharge tests
using the Eagle voltage and amperage recorder mentioned in this thread
indicate they have the stated capacity. They discharge at a very flat
and constant voltage. Will use these as my primary battery for
instrumentation and radio. I have a 10AH NiMH battery dedicated to the
transponder.and a stand-by battery in the tail (also NiMH) in case the
LiFe goes dead.

Herb, J7