Checklist formats

[brianDG303[_2_]]

I find my checklist is expanding, and there are some people who have a
sort of 'flip book' attached to the top of the glareshield and I was
wondering if someone could share some details. Other ideas also very
welcome,


Brian

[Matt Herron Jr.]

On Mar 23, 9:21*am, brianDG303 > wrote:
> I find my checklist is expanding, and there are some people who have a
> sort of 'flip book' attached to the top of the glareshield and I was
> wondering if someone could share some details. *Other ideas also very
> welcome,
>
> Brian

Kempton Izuno first showed me the flipbook style checklist in his
cockpit. It was large and readable, positioned right in front of the
pilot. There were multiple lists for landing, takeoff, cross country,
etc. Most importantly, it flipped completely out of the way when not
needed.

I planned to write a little article for Soaring on how to do this, but
never got around to it. Your request inspired me to dig out the
photos of how to make a flipbook checklist and throw them on a website
to share. Please visit:

http://web.me.com/glideplan/Glider_Checklist_Flip_Book

Comments and suggestions can be left below the images if you double
click on them, or here, if you prefer. Feedback encouraged.

Matt Jr.

[Craig[_2_]]

On Mar 25, 10:03*am, "Matt Herron Jr." > wrote:
> On Mar 23, 9:21*am, brianDG303 > wrote:
>
> > I find my checklist is expanding, and there are some people who have a
> > sort of 'flip book' attached to the top of the glareshield and I was
> > wondering if someone could share some details. *Other ideas also very
> > welcome,
>
> > Brian
>
> Kempton Izuno first showed me the flipbook style checklist in his
> cockpit. *It was large and readable, positioned right in front of the
> pilot. *There were multiple lists for landing, takeoff, cross country,
> etc. *Most importantly, it flipped completely out of the way when not
> needed.
>
> I planned to write a little article for Soaring on how to do this, but
> never got around to it. *Your request inspired me to dig out the
> photos of how to make a flipbook checklist and throw them on a website
> to share. *Please visit:
>
> http://web.me.com/glideplan/Glider_Checklist_Flip_Book
>
> Comments and suggestions can be left below the images if you double
> click on them, or here, if you prefer. *Feedback encouraged.
>
> Matt Jr.

Thanks Matt,

Could we talk you into adding the text for each of your checklist
pages? If you'd rather not provide grist for the RAS mill, a pm would
be fine.

Craig

[Matt Herron Jr.]

On Mar 25, 10:46*am, Craig > wrote:
> On Mar 25, 10:03*am, "Matt Herron Jr." > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 23, 9:21*am, brianDG303 > wrote:
>
> > > I find my checklist is expanding, and there are some people who have a
> > > sort of 'flip book' attached to the top of the glareshield and I was
> > > wondering if someone could share some details. *Other ideas also very
> > > welcome,
>
> > > Brian
>
> > Kempton Izuno first showed me the flipbook style checklist in his
> > cockpit. *It was large and readable, positioned right in front of the
> > pilot. *There were multiple lists for landing, takeoff, cross country,
> > etc. *Most importantly, it flipped completely out of the way when not
> > needed.
>
> > I planned to write a little article for Soaring on how to do this, but
> > never got around to it. *Your request inspired me to dig out the
> > photos of how to make a flipbook checklist and throw them on a website
> > to share. *Please visit:
>
> >http://web.me.com/glideplan/Glider_Checklist_Flip_Book
>
> > Comments and suggestions can be left below the images if you double
> > click on them, or here, if you prefer. *Feedback encouraged.
>
> > Matt Jr.
>
> Thanks Matt,
>
> Could we talk you into adding the text for each of your checklist
> pages? *If you'd rather not provide grist for the RAS mill, a pm would
> be fine.
>
> Craig

sure.

Usual disclaimer: This info is for your entertainment, and likely not
suitable for your glider or your particular needs.


Pre-flight

1. Assembly and airframe OK
2. Wings taped and clean
3. Ballast, water, balance OK
4. Parachute
5. Seat, belts & pedals adjusted
6. Batteries in, GPS on
7. PC, waypoints, declare
8. Radio check, X-ponder, ELT on
9. Water, hat, sunscreen
10. Maps, food, barf bags, O2
11. Positive control check
12. Final walk around


Take-off

1. Tail dolly, Ballast
2. Belts secure
3. Flaps to (-1)
4. Controls free, Trim set
5. Altimeter set
6. Radio freq & vol
7. Towrope OK
8. Canopy locked, Vents
9. Wind
10. Emergency plans
11. Traffic
12. Spoilers


Landing

1. Water Ballast?
2. Radio: Pos.-Alt.-Intent
3. Wind (radio airfield?)
4. Traffic
5. Gear down, locked
6. Radio: pattern entry
7. Flaps to (L or +2)
8. Airspeed trimmed
9. Spoilers


Cross Country/Wave

1. Water Ballast
2. Landout kit and cell phone
3. Ground crew arrangements
4. Appropriate clothing
5. Test oxygen
6. Check weather
7. Maps and navigation
8. Food, water, cash
9. Relief system
10. Task declaration
11. Wave window

[brianDG303[_2_]]

On Mar 25, 1:48*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." > wrote:
> On Mar 25, 10:46*am, Craig > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 25, 10:03*am, "Matt Herron Jr." > wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 23, 9:21*am, brianDG303 > wrote:
>
> > > > I find my checklist is expanding, and there are some people who have a
> > > > sort of 'flip book' attached to the top of the glareshield and I was
> > > > wondering if someone could share some details. *Other ideas also very
> > > > welcome,
>
> > > > Brian
>
> > > Kempton Izuno first showed me the flipbook style checklist in his
> > > cockpit. *It was large and readable, positioned right in front of the
> > > pilot. *There were multiple lists for landing, takeoff, cross country,
> > > etc. *Most importantly, it flipped completely out of the way when not
> > > needed.
>
> > > I planned to write a little article for Soaring on how to do this, but
> > > never got around to it. *Your request inspired me to dig out the
> > > photos of how to make a flipbook checklist and throw them on a website
> > > to share. *Please visit:
>
> > >http://web.me.com/glideplan/Glider_Checklist_Flip_Book
>
> > > Comments and suggestions can be left below the images if you double
> > > click on them, or here, if you prefer. *Feedback encouraged.
>
> > > Matt Jr.
>
> > Thanks Matt,
>
> > Could we talk you into adding the text for each of your checklist
> > pages? *If you'd rather not provide grist for the RAS mill, a pm would
> > be fine.
>
> > Craig
>
> sure.
>
> Usual disclaimer: *This info is for your entertainment, and likely not
> suitable for your glider or your particular needs.
>
> Pre-flight
>
> 1. * * *Assembly and airframe OK
> 2. * * *Wings taped and clean
> 3. * * *Ballast, water, balance OK
> 4. * * *Parachute
> 5. * * *Seat, belts & pedals adjusted
> 6. * * *Batteries in, GPS on
> 7. * * *PC, waypoints, declare
> 8. * * *Radio check, X-ponder, ELT on
> 9. * * *Water, hat, sunscreen
> 10. * * Maps, food, barf bags, O2
> 11. * * Positive control check
> 12. * * Final walk around
>
> Take-off
>
> 1. * * *Tail dolly, Ballast
> 2. * * *Belts secure
> 3. * * *Flaps to (-1)
> 4. * * *Controls free, Trim set
> 5. * * *Altimeter set
> 6. * * *Radio freq & vol
> 7. * * *Towrope OK
> 8. * * *Canopy locked, Vents
> 9. * * *Wind
> 10. * * Emergency plans
> 11. * * Traffic
> 12. * * Spoilers
>
> Landing
>
> 1. * * *Water Ballast?
> 2. * * *Radio: Pos.-Alt.-Intent
> 3. * * *Wind (radio airfield?)
> 4. * * *Traffic
> 5. * * *Gear down, locked
> 6. * * *Radio: pattern entry
> 7. * * *Flaps to (L or +2)
> 8. * * *Airspeed trimmed
> 9. * * *Spoilers
>
> Cross Country/Wave
>
> 1. * * *Water Ballast
> 2. * * *Landout kit and cell phone
> 3. * * *Ground crew arrangements
> 4. * * *Appropriate clothing
> 5. * * *Test oxygen
> 6. * * *Check weather
> 7. * * *Maps and navigation
> 8. * * *Food, water, cash
> 9. * * *Relief system
> 10. * * Task declaration
> 11. * * Wave window

Thank you Matt, Eric Greenwell also sent me the original Kempton
format and now I everything I need. An item I will add: TE PROBE
INSTALLED. I forget every 100 flights or so.

[Burt Compton - Marfa]

I learned from Karl Striedeck that you should have a post-flight
checklist that includes items to take out of the sailplane including
wallet, batteries, logger, maps, turnpoint data, water, food (no
mice!), reading glasses, pee thang, etc.
Add any special rigging tools and pins that you want back into the
fuselage, not left on the ground after an off-airport retrieve, in the
dark, in the rain.
You can add more -- some are especially important if you de-rig every
night.
Digging wallet out of the fuselage inside trailer in the dark, or in
the rain . . . been there.

[Andy[_1_]]

On Mar 25, 4:44*pm, Burt Compton - Marfa > wrote:
> I learned from Karl Striedeck that you should have a post-flight
> checklist that includes items to take out of the sailplane including
> wallet, batteries, logger, maps, turnpoint data, water, food (no
> mice!), reading glasses, pee thang, etc.
> Add any special rigging tools and pins that you want back into the
> fuselage, not left on the ground after an off-airport retrieve, in the
> dark, in the rain.
> You can add more -- some are especially important if you de-rig every
> night.
> Digging wallet out of the fuselage inside trailer in the dark, or in
> the rain . . . been there.

Agree - I have a written checklist for pre and post flight items.
Leaving a parachute or battery at home is very inconvenient. Being on
the contest grid without the task sheet or chart similarly so.

However I have never used a written checklist, or action list, for
takeoff or landing in a glider. The check list goes away before I get
in and does not come out again until I'm back at the trailer.

No doubt people miss required actions when under pressure, but does a
checklist help in single pilot operations? Crews of military aircraft
and of large civil transport aircraft are required to memorize the
required response for all situations requiring immediate action. Only
after the sequence has been executed is it confirmed by use of a
checklist. Even routine tasks such as cockpit preparation are
performed without a check list, typically using a "flow" technique.
Only when it is all done is the the checklist used for confirmation.

I'm still capable of remembering a mnemonic action list long enough to
cover a glider pre-takeoff or landing check. When I can't remember
the list I'll probably be too old, fatigued, dehydrated, or scared to
remember to get the checklist out.

Andy

[kirk.stant]

On Mar 26, 12:09*pm, Andy > wrote:
> On Mar 25, 4:44*pm, Burt Compton - Marfa > wrote:
>
> > I learned from Karl Striedeck that you should have a post-flight
> > checklist that includes items to take out of the sailplane including
> > wallet, batteries, logger, maps, turnpoint data, water, food (no
> > mice!), reading glasses, pee thang, etc.
> > Add any special rigging tools and pins that you want back into the
> > fuselage, not left on the ground after an off-airport retrieve, in the
> > dark, in the rain.
> > You can add more -- some are especially important if you de-rig every
> > night.
> > Digging wallet out of the fuselage inside trailer in the dark, or in
> > the rain . . . been there.
>
> Agree - I have a written checklist for pre and post flight items.
> Leaving a parachute or battery at home is very inconvenient. *Being on
> the contest grid without the task sheet or chart similarly so.
>
> However I have never used a written checklist, or action list, for
> takeoff or landing in a glider. *The check list goes away before I get
> in and does not come out again until I'm back at the trailer.
>
> No doubt people miss required actions when under pressure, but does a
> checklist help in single pilot operations? *Crews of military aircraft
> and of large civil transport aircraft are required to memorize the
> required response for all situations requiring immediate action. *Only
> after the sequence has been executed is it confirmed by use of a
> checklist. *Even routine tasks such as cockpit preparation are
> performed without a check list, typically using a "flow" technique.
> Only when it is all done is the the checklist used for confirmation.
>
> I'm still capable of remembering a mnemonic action list long enough to
> cover a glider pre-takeoff or landing check. *When I can't remember
> the list I'll probably be too old, fatigued, dehydrated, or scared to
> remember to get the checklist out.
>
> Andy

I totally agree with Andy. I'm amazed with the length of some of
these inflight glider checklists - which are more "reminders of how to
fly" than actual checklists.

Do you really need to be told to lookout? To trim?

This has been beat to death here before, but IMHO shorter is better:
CBSIFTCBE before taking off, and (for me) WWW before landing (Wind
Water Wheel). I don't need a piece of paper to remember those (yet!)

The rest is just good aviating.

Cheers (from snowy St Louis)

Kirk 66

[Iwona Leszczynska]

For me there are two Check Lists worth making:

1. I’m Living my Home (Hotel) to Airport Check List.
This List protect me from forgetting anything I will need during
the flying day.

2. I’m Ready to Sit into Glider Check List ( Start Line)
This List assure me that the glider is ready to fly, and all I
need during the flight is in the cockpit.

[toad]

> This has been beat to death here before, but IMHO shorter is better:
> CBSIFTCBE before taking off, and (for me) WWW before landing (Wind
> Water Wheel). *I don't need a piece of paper to remember those (yet!)
>
> The rest is just good aviating.
>
> Cheers (from snowy St Louis)
>
> Kirk 66

I have never been able to memorize what CBSIFTCBE is supposed to mean
and a written checklist seems a perfect way for the pre-takeoff check
to be made.

(W)USTALL might have a couple of redundant checks, but it's short and
easy to remember.

Todd
3S

[Matt Herron Jr.]

On Mar 26, 10:09*am, Andy > wrote:

> However I have never used a written checklist, or action list, for
> takeoff or landing in a glider. *The check list goes away before I get
> in and does not come out again until I'm back at the trailer.
>
> No doubt people miss required actions when under pressure, but does a
> checklist help in single pilot operations? *Crews of military aircraft
> and of large civil transport aircraft are required to memorize the
> required response for all situations requiring immediate action. *Only
> after the sequence has been executed is it confirmed by use of a
> checklist. *Even routine tasks such as cockpit preparation are
> performed without a check list, typically using a "flow" technique.
> Only when it is all done is the the checklist used for confirmation.
>
> I'm still capable of remembering a mnemonic action list long enough to
> cover a glider pre-takeoff or landing check. *When I can't remember
> the list I'll probably be too old, fatigued, dehydrated, or scared to
> remember to get the checklist out.
>
> Andy

Checklists save lives in where complex, life threatening tasks are
involved such as flying, surgery, etc. Its a proven fact. I probably
don't need a checklist either when everything is going great. But when
my assembly is interrupted, or I have to get out of the cockpit on the
flight line for some reason, or I am landing in a field, or a whole
string of seemingly small things stack up to a situation, I want my
lists. You are a very lucky man to have never forgotten to do
anything important in your flying career. I wish I could say the
same.

For those interested, check out "The Checklist Manifesto" by Atul
Gawande

Matt Jr.

[kirk.stant]

On Mar 27, 9:48*am, toad > wrote:
> > This has been beat to death here before, but IMHO shorter is better:
> > CBSIFTCBE before taking off, and (for me) WWW before landing (Wind
> > Water Wheel). *I don't need a piece of paper to remember those (yet!)
>
> > The rest is just good aviating.
>
> > Cheers (from snowy St Louis)
>
> > Kirk 66
>
> I have never been able to memorize what CBSIFTCBE is supposed to mean
> and a written checklist seems a perfect way for the pre-takeoff check
> to be made.
>
> (W)USTALL might have a couple of redundant checks, but it's short and
> easy to remember.
>
> Todd
> 3S

Funny, cuz I have no clue what (W)USTALL stands for.

Kirk
66

[kirk.stant]

On Mar 27, 12:31*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." > wrote:
> On Mar 26, 10:09*am, Andy > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > However I have never used a written checklist, or action list, for
> > takeoff or landing in a glider. *The check list goes away before I get
> > in and does not come out again until I'm back at the trailer.
>
> > No doubt people miss required actions when under pressure, but does a
> > checklist help in single pilot operations? *Crews of military aircraft
> > and of large civil transport aircraft are required to memorize the
> > required response for all situations requiring immediate action. *Only
> > after the sequence has been executed is it confirmed by use of a
> > checklist. *Even routine tasks such as cockpit preparation are
> > performed without a check list, typically using a "flow" technique.
> > Only when it is all done is the the checklist used for confirmation.
>
> > I'm still capable of remembering a mnemonic action list long enough to
> > cover a glider pre-takeoff or landing check. *When I can't remember
> > the list I'll probably be too old, fatigued, dehydrated, or scared to
> > remember to get the checklist out.
>
> > Andy
>
> Checklists save lives in where complex, life threatening tasks are
> involved such as flying, surgery, etc. *Its a proven fact. *I probably
> don't need a checklist either when everything is going great. But when
> my assembly is interrupted, or I have to get out of the cockpit on the
> flight line for some reason, or I am landing in a field, or a whole
> string of seemingly small things stack up to a situation, I want my
> lists. *You are a very lucky man to have never forgotten to do
> anything important in your flying career. *I wish I could say the
> same.
>
> For those interested, check out "The Checklist Manifesto" by Atul
> Gawande
>
> Matt Jr.

That's all great, but there aren't a lot of life threatening tasks
when landing a glider. Heck, in a 1-26, the only one is checking the
direction of the wind prior to entering the pattern - and even that
could be considered airmanship, not a task. In more complex gliders,
if you forget to dump your ballast you could fly the pattern too slow,
or if you leave the gear up it could get expensive fast, but what else
is life threatening - that isn't really just flying the glider?

I'm all for assembly checklists, and leave the house checklists, and
before leaving the glider field checklists - but gliders are simply
not complex enough to need lengthy inflight checklists. If they make
you feel better, fine, but the downside is that while you are reading
an going through a list of items, you are not flying the glider and
looking out very much - which is A LOT MORE IMPORTANT in the landing
pattern.

The example with doctors is misleading. I seriously doubt the surgeon
goes through a checklist before every action during an operation.
What he does is go through a pre-surgery checklist (like our assembly
check) and a post-surgery checklist (make sure nothing is left in the
patient), but he doesn't need a
1. grasp scalpel with right hand
2. place scalpel tip on patients skin
3. push until it bleeds
checklist!

In the complicated jets I used to fly in, our checklists were to make
sure all the required switches and checks were accomplished when
needed. And they were mainly done as "after the fact" challenge
response to verify completion - not by reading and doing one step at a
time. In a rush, the checks were done quickly and confirmed when
convenient.

Anyway, do whatever floats your boat, but don't read a checklist in
the pattern, please!

Kirk
66

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sun, 27 Mar 2011 12:36:59 -0700, kirk.stant wrote:

> Funny, cuz I have no clue what (W)USTALL stands for.
>
When I was flying an ASW-20, WUF (Water, Undercarriage, Flaps) was
considered enough of a check list by senior club members who were also
instructors. Now I fly an early Standard Libelle the checklist should be
pared down to U since it has no flaps and doesn't carry water. In
practise no checklist is needed: I simply follow our club practice of
making a 5 minute call and saying what direction I'm appearing from. Then
I make another call on downwind announcing my choice of circuit direction
and runway and confirming that my u/c is down and locked.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[toad]

On Mar 27, 3:36*pm, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
> On Mar 27, 9:48*am, toad > wrote:
>
>
>
> > > This has been beat to death here before, but IMHO shorter is better:
> > > CBSIFTCBE before taking off, and (for me) WWW before landing (Wind
> > > Water Wheel). *I don't need a piece of paper to remember those (yet!)
>
> > > The rest is just good aviating.
>
> > > Cheers (from snowy St Louis)
>
> > > Kirk 66
>
> > I have never been able to memorize what CBSIFTCBE is supposed to mean
> > and a written checklist seems a perfect way for the pre-takeoff check
> > to be made.
>
> > (W)USTALL might have a couple of redundant checks, but it's short and
> > easy to remember.
>
> > Todd
> > 3S
>
> Funny, cuz I have no clue what (W)USTALL stands for.
>
> Kirk
> 66

( Water )
Undercarriage
Speed
trim
airbrakes ( test them in case of a failure )
look
land

And I agree that it's all airmanship. I think these are taught to
primary students more in order to teach the airmanship than they are
needed as a "checklist" such as done in a complex aircraft.

[Greg Arnold[_2_]]

On 3/27/2011 12:36 PM, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Mar 27, 9:48 am, > wrote:
>>> This has been beat to death here before, but IMHO shorter is better:
>>> CBSIFTCBE before taking off, and (for me) WWW before landing (Wind
>>> Water Wheel). I don't need a piece of paper to remember those (yet!)
>>
>>> The rest is just good aviating.
>>
>>> Cheers (from snowy St Louis)
>>
>>> Kirk 66
>>
>> I have never been able to memorize what CBSIFTCBE is supposed to mean
>> and a written checklist seems a perfect way for the pre-takeoff check
>> to be made.
>>
>> (W)USTALL might have a couple of redundant checks, but it's short and
>> easy to remember.
>>
>> Todd
>> 3S
>
> Funny, cuz I have no clue what (W)USTALL stands for.
>
> Kirk
> 66

Wind
Undercarriage
Speed
Trim
Airbrakes
Lookout
Land

Speed, trim, and lookout are things you should have been doing all your
flight. Not clear why you need to be reminded of them when you are
landing.

If you are in the pattern and forget about the "airbrakes" or "land"
part, you should have stayed in bed that day!

That leaves wind and the wheel, and water also could be added. Maybe
also an announcement of your intentions on the radio.

[brianDG303[_2_]]

On Mar 27, 12:50*pm, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
> On Mar 27, 12:31*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 26, 10:09*am, Andy > wrote:
>
> > > However I have never used a written checklist, or action list, for
> > > takeoff or landing in a glider. *The check list goes away before I get
> > > in and does not come out again until I'm back at the trailer.
>
> > > No doubt people miss required actions when under pressure, but does a
> > > checklist help in single pilot operations? *Crews of military aircraft
> > > and of large civil transport aircraft are required to memorize the
> > > required response for all situations requiring immediate action. *Only
> > > after the sequence has been executed is it confirmed by use of a
> > > checklist. *Even routine tasks such as cockpit preparation are
> > > performed without a check list, typically using a "flow" technique.
> > > Only when it is all done is the the checklist used for confirmation.
>
> > > I'm still capable of remembering a mnemonic action list long enough to
> > > cover a glider pre-takeoff or landing check. *When I can't remember
> > > the list I'll probably be too old, fatigued, dehydrated, or scared to
> > > remember to get the checklist out.
>
> > > Andy
>
> > Checklists save lives in where complex, life threatening tasks are
> > involved such as flying, surgery, etc. *Its a proven fact. *I probably
> > don't need a checklist either when everything is going great. But when
> > my assembly is interrupted, or I have to get out of the cockpit on the
> > flight line for some reason, or I am landing in a field, or a whole
> > string of seemingly small things stack up to a situation, I want my
> > lists. *You are a very lucky man to have never forgotten to do
> > anything important in your flying career. *I wish I could say the
> > same.
>
> > For those interested, check out "The Checklist Manifesto" by Atul
> > Gawande
>
> > Matt Jr.
>
> That's all great, but there aren't a lot of life threatening tasks
> when landing a glider. *Heck, in a 1-26, the only one is checking the
> direction of the wind prior to entering the pattern - and even that
> could be considered airmanship, not a task. *In more complex gliders,
> if you forget to dump your ballast you could fly the pattern too slow,
> or if you leave the gear up it could get expensive fast, but what else
> is life threatening - that isn't really just flying the glider?
>
> I'm all for assembly checklists, and leave the house checklists, and
> before leaving the glider field checklists - but gliders are simply
> not complex enough to need lengthy inflight checklists. *If they make
> you feel better, fine, but the downside is that while you are reading
> an going through a list of items, you are not flying the glider and
> looking out very much - which is A LOT MORE IMPORTANT in the landing
> pattern.
>
> The example with doctors is misleading. *I seriously doubt the surgeon
> goes through a checklist before every action during an operation.
> What he does is go through a pre-surgery checklist (like our assembly
> check) and a post-surgery checklist (make sure nothing is left in the
> patient), but he doesn't need a
> 1. grasp scalpel with right hand
> 2. place scalpel tip on patients skin
> 3. push until it bleeds
> checklist!
>
> In the complicated jets I used to fly in, our checklists were to make
> sure all the required switches and checks were accomplished when
> needed. *And they were mainly done as "after the fact" challenge
> response to verify completion - not by reading and doing one step at a
> time. In a rush, the checks were done quickly and confirmed when
> convenient.
>
> Anyway, do whatever floats your boat, but don't read a checklist in
> the pattern, please!
>
> Kirk
> 66

Kirk,
Did you read:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/12/10/071210fa_fact_gawande

Here is a quote-
"Line infections are so common that they are considered a routine
complication. I.C.U.s put five million lines into patients each year,
and national statistics show that, after ten days, four per cent of
those lines become infected. Line infections occur in eighty thousand
people a year in the United States, and are fatal between five and
twenty-eight per cent of the time, depending on how sick one is at the
start."

OK, now here are the steps-
(1) wash hands with soap,
(2) clean the patient’s skin with chlorhexidine antiseptic,
(3) put sterile drapes over the entire patient,
(4) wear a sterile mask, hat, gown, and gloves, and
(5) put a sterile dressing over the catheter site once the line is in.

Clearly these are simple, easy to remember things that don't need a
checklist. But they started using a checklist anyway-

"the ten-day line-infection rate went from eleven per cent to zero. So
they followed patients for fifteen more months. Only two line
infections occurred during the entire period. They calculated that, in
this one hospital, the checklist had prevented forty-three infections
and eight deaths, and saved two million dollars in costs."

Agree with most of your comments, BTW, but checklists are sometimes
useful for even the simple things.

Brian

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 3/27/2011 12:50 PM, kirk.stant wrote:

> That's all great, but there aren't a lot of life threatening tasks
> when landing a glider. Heck, in a 1-26, the only one is checking the
> direction of the wind prior to entering the pattern - and even that
> could be considered airmanship, not a task. In more complex gliders,
> if you forget to dump your ballast you could fly the pattern too slow,
> or if you leave the gear up it could get expensive fast, but what else
> is life threatening - that isn't really just flying the glider?

In my glider, I use a pre-landing checklist (mnemonic, not written) that
has water, wheel, flaps, airbrakes, radio on it. I used to think it was
"just flying" to remember such a short list ("don't need no stinking
mnemonics"), but after forgetting every one of those over the course of
many years, some of them several times, I changed my mind. Had I been
using a checklist the entire time, I would have forgotten fewer times.

So far, I've gotten away with without serious problems, but the
potential for escalating a poor situation to a life threatening one is
there:

* Water on board: that means a much faster landing, longer roll out, a
problem even on a runway; in an off-airport landing, it's double
trouble, with the greater chance of damage and gear collapse.

* landing gear not extended: that puts your bottom awfully close to the
rocks and more in a dirt field landing, and offers little protection for
your spine if you hit hard on runway. Oh yeah, the wheel brake doesn't
work at all, either, so let's hope you didn't land long.

* flaps still in cruise: this is a bit like landing with water, as
you'll probably hit pretty hard because the usual flare attitude won't
do much to arrest your downward motion. At least the wheel brake doesn't
have to slow down a couple hundred pounds of water.

* Airbrakes: they can malfunction, so it's good to know that before you
really need them; also, opening them will trigger your gear alarm, and
maybe prevent that problem, too.

* Radio: if it's set on the wrong frequency, or still turned off because
the chatter was distracting you during that low save 30 minutes ago, you
might not be aware of what's going on at the airport. Could be a problem...

I don't do the list in the pattern, but as I approach the airport. I use
the radio starting several miles away, with the flaps, airbrakes, and
wheel when I'm near the pattern. I'm planning to go to a nifty written
checklist like the one Mat Herron posted, as the more I fly, the more
aware I am that some structure helps.

I have to admit, when I do fly a fixed gear, unflapped, waterless
glider, no radio, it does seem so simple: show up the airport, look
around, land.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[Nyal Williams[_2_]]

At 20:06 27 March 2011, Greg Arnold wrote:

>
>Wind
>Undercarriage
>Speed
>Trim
>Airbrakes
>Lookout
>Land

If I were using this list I would change it as follows

W ater
U ndercarriage
F laps
S peed
T rim
A irbrakes
R adio Intentions
E nter Pattern

Carry it out near and above your selected IP and have it over with before
pattern altitude.

[kirk.stant]

> Kirk,
> Did you read:http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/12/10/071210fa_fact_gawande
>
> Here is a quote-
> "Line infections are so common that they are considered a routine
> complication. I.C.U.s put five million lines into patients each year,
> and national statistics show that, after ten days, four per cent of
> those lines become infected. Line infections occur in eighty thousand
> people a year in the United States, and are fatal between five and
> twenty-eight per cent of the time, depending on how sick one is at the
> start."
>
> OK, now here are the steps-
> (1) wash hands with soap,
> (2) clean the patient’s skin with chlorhexidine antiseptic,
> (3) put sterile drapes over the entire patient,
> (4) wear a sterile mask, hat, gown, and gloves, and
> (5) put a sterile dressing over the catheter site once the line is in.
>
> Clearly these are simple, easy to remember things that don't need a
> checklist. But they started using a checklist anyway-
>
> "the ten-day line-infection rate went from eleven per cent to zero. So
> they followed patients for fifteen more months. Only two line
> infections occurred during the entire period. They calculated that, in
> this one hospital, the checklist had prevented forty-three infections
> and eight deaths, and saved two million dollars in costs."
>
> Agree with most of your comments, BTW, but checklists are sometimes
> useful for even the simple things.
>
> Brian

Sorry, that's not a checklist, that a procedure.

And reading some of the "checklists" I see on RAS, they are also more
"procedures" instead of checklists.

WUFSTALL is getting awfully close to a procedure for me.

Kirk
66

[Dan Marotta]

On Mar 28, 12:17*am, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
> > Kirk,
> > Did you read:http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/12/10/071210fa_fact_gawande
>
> > Here is a quote-
> > "Line infections are so common that they are considered a routine
> > complication. I.C.U.s put five million lines into patients each year,
> > and national statistics show that, after ten days, four per cent of
> > those lines become infected. Line infections occur in eighty thousand
> > people a year in the United States, and are fatal between five and
> > twenty-eight per cent of the time, depending on how sick one is at the
> > start."
>
> > OK, now here are the steps-
> > (1) wash hands with soap,
> > (2) clean the patient’s skin with chlorhexidine antiseptic,
> > (3) put sterile drapes over the entire patient,
> > (4) wear a sterile mask, hat, gown, and gloves, and
> > (5) put a sterile dressing over the catheter site once the line is in.
>
> > Clearly these are simple, easy to remember things that don't need a
> > checklist. But they started using a checklist anyway-
>
> > "the ten-day line-infection rate went from eleven per cent to zero. So
> > they followed patients for fifteen more months. Only two line
> > infections occurred during the entire period. They calculated that, in
> > this one hospital, the checklist had prevented forty-three infections
> > and eight deaths, and saved two million dollars in costs."
>
> > Agree with most of your comments, BTW, but checklists are sometimes
> > useful for even the simple things.
>
> > Brian
>
> Sorry, that's not a checklist, that a procedure.
>
> And reading some of the "checklists" I see on RAS, they are also more
> "procedures" instead of checklists.
>
> WUFSTALL is getting awfully close to a procedure for me.
>
> Kirk
> 66

Oh, good grief! It's a simple glider, not an airliner.

If you can't tell that you have a load of water on board, maybe you
shouldn't be flying with water (or at all!). The control feel is
entirely different.

Same for flaps.

Test the spoilers? Why? You'll know as soon as you try to open them
and can alter your pattern then. If that's too complex, maybe you
shouldn't be flying.

Check the wind? You mean that you aren't constantly aware of the wind
direction and speed? Drift, crab? Should you really be up there
alone?

Check trim? Have you been holding constant pressure on the stick?
Can't you land with trim locked at either extreme? Should you be
flying?

I could go on and on, but to what end?

When I flew at Bond Springs, NT, Australia, their before takeoff
checklist mnemonic was: CHAOTIC. What the heck did that mean? I
couldn't remember during the time I was flying there, much less now!

In my AF days before takeoff we said: "All shiny switches - Outboard"
and before landing it was: "Muff 91, gear check, full stop."

I haven't damaged an aircraft in 38 years of flying. I know, some
day...

(Flame suit on)

[Brian[_1_]]

I tend to agree with the idea that checklist should be short and apply
to only critical or commonly forgotten items.

When you add too many item and it becomes a procedure then you are
likely to miss or skip critical items on the list. Or it becomes so
long that you eventally just don't do it at all.

W ater
U ndercarriage
F laps
S peed
T rim
A irbrakes
R adio Intentions
E nter Pattern

could easily be shorted to WU, Water because it can be easy to forget
and Undercarriage because it is critical and easy to forget.

My Take off critical check list is:

Canopy closed (Critical)
Controls Checked (Critical)
Flight Recorder on (easily forgotton)

It is just a sticker on instrument panel.
My assembly critical assembly check list is a sticker on the access
cover. I don't install the access cover until the check list complete.

Brian

[kirk.stant]

> Oh, good grief! *It's a simple glider, not an airliner.
>
> If you can't tell that you have a load of water on board, maybe you
> shouldn't be flying with water (or at all!). *The control feel is
> entirely different.
>
> Same for flaps.
>
> Test the spoilers? *Why? *You'll know as soon as you try to open them
> and can alter your pattern then. *If that's too complex, maybe you
> shouldn't be flying.
>
> Check the wind? *You mean that you aren't constantly aware of the wind
> direction and speed? *Drift, crab? *Should you really be up there
> alone?
>
> Check trim? *Have you been holding constant pressure on the stick?
> Can't you land with trim locked at either extreme? *Should you be
> flying?
>
> I could go on and on, but to what end?
>
> When I flew at Bond Springs, NT, Australia, their before takeoff
> checklist mnemonic was: *CHAOTIC. *What the heck did that mean? *I
> couldn't remember during the time I was flying there, much less now!
>
> In my AF days before takeoff we said: *"All shiny switches - Outboard"
> and before landing it was: *"Muff 91, gear check, full stop."
>
> I haven't damaged an aircraft in 38 years of flying. *I know, some
> day...
>
> (Flame suit on)- Hide quoted text -

Kick the tires, light the fires, brief on Guard, first one airborne is
lead....

We agree.

Kirk
66

[Dan Marotta]

On Mar 28, 11:56*am, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
> > Oh, good grief! *It's a simple glider, not an airliner.
>
> > If you can't tell that you have a load of water on board, maybe you
> > shouldn't be flying with water (or at all!). *The control feel is
> > entirely different.
>
> > Same for flaps.
>
> > Test the spoilers? *Why? *You'll know as soon as you try to open them
> > and can alter your pattern then. *If that's too complex, maybe you
> > shouldn't be flying.
>
> > Check the wind? *You mean that you aren't constantly aware of the wind
> > direction and speed? *Drift, crab? *Should you really be up there
> > alone?
>
> > Check trim? *Have you been holding constant pressure on the stick?
> > Can't you land with trim locked at either extreme? *Should you be
> > flying?
>
> > I could go on and on, but to what end?
>
> > When I flew at Bond Springs, NT, Australia, their before takeoff
> > checklist mnemonic was: *CHAOTIC. *What the heck did that mean? *I
> > couldn't remember during the time I was flying there, much less now!
>
> > In my AF days before takeoff we said: *"All shiny switches - Outboard"
> > and before landing it was: *"Muff 91, gear check, full stop."
>
> > I haven't damaged an aircraft in 38 years of flying. *I know, some
> > day...
>
> > (Flame suit on)- Hide quoted text -
>
> Kick the tires, light the fires, brief on Guard, first one airborne is
> lead....
>
> We agree.
>
> Kirk
> 66

Damn, Kirk! Did we fly together? I holler over the side to my crew
chief, "I got EGT, you got noise?"

Seems to me that, in a glider, the only necessary checklist is "Gear -
DOWN".

I suppose some have attempted takeoff with the canopy open but Darwin
is lurking just around the corner and a checklist won't protect you
from him...

[Nyal Williams[_2_]]

OK, hotshots,

Go read Kern's Airmanship Redefined.

We aren't all up here because we have testosterone poisoning.


Whether it is a checklist or a procedure, these are good devices for
students, low-time pilots, and us old guys who need check lists to help us
keep flying. Medical advice for older guys (from MD glider pilots) is to
fly more often and use checklists. We aren't all flying international
contests and it isn't the Indy 500.

DON'T TELL US TO GET OUT OF THE SKY!



At 18:37 28 March 2011, Dan Marotta wrote:
>On Mar 28, 11:56=A0am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
>> > Oh, good grief! =A0It's a simple glider, not an airliner.
>>
>> > If you can't tell that you have a load of water on board, maybe you
>> > shouldn't be flying with water (or at all!). =A0The control feel is
>> > entirely different.
>>
>> > Same for flaps.
>>
>> > Test the spoilers? =A0Why? =A0You'll know as soon as you try to
open
>th=
>em
>> > and can alter your pattern then. =A0If that's too complex, maybe
you
>> > shouldn't be flying.
>>
>> > Check the wind? =A0You mean that you aren't constantly aware of the
>win=
>d
>> > direction and speed? =A0Drift, crab? =A0Should you really be up
there
>> > alone?
>>
>> > Check trim? =A0Have you been holding constant pressure on the stick?
>> > Can't you land with trim locked at either extreme? =A0Should you be
>> > flying?
>>
>> > I could go on and on, but to what end?
>>
>> > When I flew at Bond Springs, NT, Australia, their before takeoff
>> > checklist mnemonic was: =A0CHAOTIC. =A0What the heck did that mean?
>=A0=
>I
>> > couldn't remember during the time I was flying there, much less
now!
>>
>> > In my AF days before takeoff we said: =A0"All shiny switches -
>Outboard=
>"
>> > and before landing it was: =A0"Muff 91, gear check, full stop."
>>
>> > I haven't damaged an aircraft in 38 years of flying. =A0I know,
some
>> > day...
>>
>> > (Flame suit on)- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> Kick the tires, light the fires, brief on Guard, first one airborne is
>> lead....
>>
>> We agree.
>>
>> Kirk
>> 66
>
>Damn, Kirk! Did we fly together? I holler over the side to my crew
>chief, "I got EGT, you got noise?"
>
>Seems to me that, in a glider, the only necessary checklist is "Gear -
>DOWN".
>
>I suppose some have attempted takeoff with the canopy open but Darwin
>is lurking just around the corner and a checklist won't protect you
>from him...
>

[brianDG303[_2_]]

On Mar 28, 2:00*pm, Nyal Williams > wrote:
> OK, hotshots,
>
> Go read Kern's Airmanship Redefined.
>
> We aren't all up here because we have testosterone poisoning.
>
> Whether it is a checklist or a procedure, these are good devices for
> students, low-time pilots, and us old guys who need check lists to help us
> keep flying. *Medical advice for older guys (from MD glider pilots) is to
> fly more often and use checklists. We aren't all flying international
> contests and it isn't the Indy 500.
>
> DON'T TELL US TO GET OUT OF THE SKY!
>
> At 18:37 28 March 2011, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
>
>
> >On Mar 28, 11:56=A0am, "kirk.stant" *wrote:
> >> > Oh, good grief! =A0It's a simple glider, not an airliner.
>
> >> > If you can't tell that you have a load of water on board, maybe you
> >> > shouldn't be flying with water (or at all!). =A0The control feel is
> >> > entirely different.
>
> >> > Same for flaps.
>
> >> > Test the spoilers? =A0Why? =A0You'll know as soon as you try to
> open
> >th=
> >em
> >> > and can alter your pattern then. =A0If that's too complex, maybe
> you
> >> > shouldn't be flying.
>
> >> > Check the wind? =A0You mean that you aren't constantly aware of the
> >win=
> >d
> >> > direction and speed? =A0Drift, crab? =A0Should you really be up
> there
> >> > alone?
>
> >> > Check trim? =A0Have you been holding constant pressure on the stick?
> >> > Can't you land with trim locked at either extreme? =A0Should you be
> >> > flying?
>
> >> > I could go on and on, but to what end?
>
> >> > When I flew at Bond Springs, NT, Australia, their before takeoff
> >> > checklist mnemonic was: =A0CHAOTIC. =A0What the heck did that mean?
> >=A0=
> >I
> >> > couldn't remember during the time I was flying there, much less
> now!
>
> >> > In my AF days before takeoff we said: =A0"All shiny switches -
> >Outboard=
> >"
> >> > and before landing it was: =A0"Muff 91, gear check, full stop."
>
> >> > I haven't damaged an aircraft in 38 years of flying. =A0I know,
> some
> >> > day...
>
> >> > (Flame suit on)- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> Kick the tires, light the fires, brief on Guard, first one airborne is
> >> lead....
>
> >> We agree.
>
> >> Kirk
> >> 66
>
> >Damn, Kirk! *Did we fly together? *I holler over the side to my crew
> >chief, "I got EGT, you got noise?"
>
> >Seems to me that, in a glider, the only necessary checklist is "Gear -
> >DOWN".
>
> >I suppose some have attempted takeoff with the canopy open but Darwin
> >is lurking just around the corner and a checklist won't protect you
> >from him...- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I think we now have the complete range of opinions, even better I have
the exact information I was looking for in the original post thank you
again Matt and Eric. I promise everyone I will have the correct
number of items on my checklist. In case I didn't understand quite
what those were, could everyone please post their opinion again?
Wouldn't want to miss that.

Brian

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 3/28/2011 8:21 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:

Maybe you need to meet some real glider pilots; you know, the kind that
have made mistakes. There are a lot of us - not hard to find!
>
> Oh, good grief! It's a simple glider, not an airliner.
>
> If you can't tell that you have a load of water on board, maybe you
> shouldn't be flying with water (or at all!). The control feel is
> entirely different.

Yikes! After flying a ballasted glider for 4 or 5 hours, it _feels_
normal (at least for the four gliders I've owned that used water), and
if I'm concentrating on a low save or other intense things, I can forget
it. After the first time, I added it to my checklist (meaning - started
using one); so far, no repeat incidents.

> Same for flaps.

Read the above, starting with the Yikes!, but thinking flaps instead of
ballast. I didn't think it was possible to forget setting the flaps, but
it was and still is.

> Test the spoilers? Why? You'll know as soon as you try to open them
> and can alter your pattern then. If that's too complex, maybe you
> shouldn't be flying.

If you try them early in the pattern, that can be the test. If you
sometimes wait until you are on final, that might be too late to deal
with the the problem. I've only had one spoiler incident - frozen closed
- but I've read of others having problems, including stuck open and only
one deploying. The other reason is to activate the gear warning, in case
you forgot that. I've been saved from a gear up landing at least three
times by a spoiler activated gear warning, and I'd rather have the
warning early in the pattern instead of on final.

>
> Check the wind? You mean that you aren't constantly aware of the wind
> direction and speed? Drift, crab? Should you really be up there
> alone?

I've never had these on my checklist, but I have learned to check the
wind several times during a pattern, after being fooled a couple times.

> Check trim? Have you been holding constant pressure on the stick?
> Can't you land with trim locked at either extreme? Should you be
> flying?

I don't have this one on my checklist, but I'd say the danger is
relaxing and letting the airspeed decrease/increase unintentionally,
most likely while you are distracted by other aircraft in the pattern,
the radio, people wandering around near the runway, etc.

> I could go on and on, but to what end?

(snip)

> I haven't damaged an aircraft in 38 years of flying. I know, some
> day...

OK, you don't need a checklist, but I think I see why you can't imagine
that some of us find them helpful: you don't make mistakes and you don't
get distracted. I make mistakes and I do get distracted. In 36 years of
glider flying, I've managed to avoid big mistakes so a dinged wing tip
on a landing light is the extent of my damage. It's taken plenty of
care, some checklists, revision of procedures, study, and some luck to
do it.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[Walt Connelly]

Opinions are like rear ends. Everyone has one. Check lists are good ideas, they should highlight the critical events like locking the canopy and putting down the landing gear. I heard a story of a glider pilot who landed gear up on the runway with a student pilot in back of him. He couldn't make it off the runway and the student with limited skill and experience dinged his wing. Perhaps a checklist on the panel with "put the gear down," would have saved some repairs.

Just my opinion

Walt

[Dan Marotta]

On Mar 28, 3:00*pm, Nyal Williams > wrote:
> OK, hotshots,
>
> Go read Kern's Airmanship Redefined.
>
> We aren't all up here because we have testosterone poisoning.
>
> Whether it is a checklist or a procedure, these are good devices for
> students, low-time pilots, and us old guys who need check lists to help us
> keep flying. *Medical advice for older guys (from MD glider pilots) is to
> fly more often and use checklists. We aren't all flying international
> contests and it isn't the Indy 500.
>
> DON'T TELL US TO GET OUT OF THE SKY!
>
> At 18:37 28 March 2011, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
> >On Mar 28, 11:56=A0am, "kirk.stant" *wrote:
> >> > Oh, good grief! =A0It's a simple glider, not an airliner.
>
> >> > If you can't tell that you have a load of water on board, maybe you
> >> > shouldn't be flying with water (or at all!). =A0The control feel is
> >> > entirely different.
>
> >> > Same for flaps.
>
> >> > Test the spoilers? =A0Why? =A0You'll know as soon as you try to
> open
> >th=
> >em
> >> > and can alter your pattern then. =A0If that's too complex, maybe
> you
> >> > shouldn't be flying.
>
> >> > Check the wind? =A0You mean that you aren't constantly aware of the
> >win=
> >d
> >> > direction and speed? =A0Drift, crab? =A0Should you really be up
> there
> >> > alone?
>
> >> > Check trim? =A0Have you been holding constant pressure on the stick?
> >> > Can't you land with trim locked at either extreme? =A0Should you be
> >> > flying?
>
> >> > I could go on and on, but to what end?
>
> >> > When I flew at Bond Springs, NT, Australia, their before takeoff
> >> > checklist mnemonic was: =A0CHAOTIC. =A0What the heck did that mean?
> >=A0=
> >I
> >> > couldn't remember during the time I was flying there, much less
> now!
>
> >> > In my AF days before takeoff we said: =A0"All shiny switches -
> >Outboard=
> >"
> >> > and before landing it was: =A0"Muff 91, gear check, full stop."
>
> >> > I haven't damaged an aircraft in 38 years of flying. =A0I know,
> some
> >> > day...
>
> >> > (Flame suit on)- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> Kick the tires, light the fires, brief on Guard, first one airborne is
> >> lead....
>
> >> We agree.
>
> >> Kirk
> >> 66
>
> >Damn, Kirk! *Did we fly together? *I holler over the side to my crew
> >chief, "I got EGT, you got noise?"
>
> >Seems to me that, in a glider, the only necessary checklist is "Gear -
> >DOWN".
>
> >I suppose some have attempted takeoff with the canopy open but Darwin
> >is lurking just around the corner and a checklist won't protect you
> >from him...

Now, now... Nobody's telling anybody to get out of the sky.

I'm only objecting to the mind-set that you MUST use a checklist. In
the traffic pattern is no place to be reading a book on how to fly
your glider. You should know what to do, when to do it, and you
should know your glider well enough to feel when things aren't right,
i.e., wings still full, dive brakes not open, glider not yet on the
ground. If you need a mnemonic to remember these things, fine, but
please don't be flipping charts on the top of the panel while sharing
the pattern with me.

[Andy[_1_]]

On Mar 29, 5:01*am, Walt Connelly <Walt.Connelly.
> wrote:
> Opinions are like rear ends. *Everyone has one. *Check lists are good
> ideas, they should highlight the critical events like locking the canopy
> and putting down the landing gear. *I heard a story of a glider pilot
> who landed gear up on the runway with a student pilot in back of him.
> He couldn't make it off the runway and the student with limited skill
> and experience dinged his wing. *Perhaps a checklist on the panel with
> "put the gear down," would have saved some repairs.
>
> Just my opinion
>
> Walt
>
> --
> Walt Connelly

I don't think anyone on this thread was saying "checklists" are a bad
idea. The majority of the discussion has been about whether the list
needs to be written or mnemonic and what the content of the list
should be.

The extremes range between mnemonic+short, and written+long.

The key thing about any list is that it only contributes to safety if
you actually use it. I contend that a pilot is just as likely to fail
to execute a written list as a mnemonic list. I therefore contend
that a written list has no advantage over a mnemonic list unless the
list is so long it cannot be easily memorized. As others have stated
a mnemonic list does not distract from keeping eyes outside.

I also have gear warning to every glider I have owned. It went off
once in 23 years and that was as I turned downwind.

A story about airline pilots and checklists. I recently participated
in a flight test program in which we leased a modern 100 passenger
twin jet. A condition of the lease was that it would be flown by the
airline's pilots not our company test pilots. Several crews rotated
through during the test program. With only one exception during the
preflight checks the crew responded to "cockpit door" with "closed and
locked". That was interesting because the door was secured wide open
to allow instrumentation wiring to pass to the rear cabin.

Andy

[Nyal Williams[_2_]]

I'll apologize for blowing my top, and anyway, the remark was not directed
at you.

Information from our insurance company reveals that there are lots of
glider pilots who are flying only 10-25 hours per year. For these folks a
check list and a procedure are probably the same thing.

My earlier comment said IF I WERE TO USE THIS CHECK LIST, I would modify
it in a particular manner....

I certainly agree, and teach my students that the pattern is no place for
reading check lists -- get it done early, and especially so if it must be
read.

At 14:15 29 March 2011, Dan Marotta wrote:
>On Mar 28, 3:00=A0pm, Nyal Williams wrote:
>> OK, hotshots,
>>
>> Go read Kern's Airmanship Redefined.
>>
>> We aren't all up here because we have testosterone poisoning.
>>
>> Whether it is a checklist or a procedure, these are good devices for
>> students, low-time pilots, and us old guys who need check lists to
help
>u=
>s
>> keep flying. =A0Medical advice for older guys (from MD glider pilots)
is
>=
>to
>> fly more often and use checklists. We aren't all flying international
>> contests and it isn't the Indy 500.
>>
>> DON'T TELL US TO GET OUT OF THE SKY!
>>
>> At 18:37 28 March 2011, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>
>> >On Mar 28, 11:56=3DA0am, "kirk.stant" =A0wrote:
>> >> > Oh, good grief! =3DA0It's a simple glider, not an airliner.
>>
>> >> > If you can't tell that you have a load of water on board, maybe
you
>> >> > shouldn't be flying with water (or at all!). =3DA0The control
feel
>i=
>s
>> >> > entirely different.
>>
>> >> > Same for flaps.
>>
>> >> > Test the spoilers? =3DA0Why? =3DA0You'll know as soon as you try
to
>> open
>> >th=3D
>> >em
>> >> > and can alter your pattern then. =3DA0If that's too complex,
maybe
>> you
>> >> > shouldn't be flying.
>>
>> >> > Check the wind? =3DA0You mean that you aren't constantly aware
of
>th=
>e
>> >win=3D
>> >d
>> >> > direction and speed? =3DA0Drift, crab? =3DA0Should you really be
up
>> there
>> >> > alone?
>>
>> >> > Check trim? =3DA0Have you been holding constant pressure on the
>stic=
>k?
>> >> > Can't you land with trim locked at either extreme? =3DA0Should
you
>b=
>e
>> >> > flying?
>>
>> >> > I could go on and on, but to what end?
>>
>> >> > When I flew at Bond Springs, NT, Australia, their before takeoff
>> >> > checklist mnemonic was: =3DA0CHAOTIC. =3DA0What the heck did that
>me=
>an?
>> >=3DA0=3D
>> >I
>> >> > couldn't remember during the time I was flying there, much less
>> now!
>>
>> >> > In my AF days before takeoff we said: =3DA0"All shiny switches -
>> >Outboard=3D
>> >"
>> >> > and before landing it was: =3DA0"Muff 91, gear check, full
stop."
>>
>> >> > I haven't damaged an aircraft in 38 years of flying. =3DA0I
know,
>> some
>> >> > day...
>>
>> >> > (Flame suit on)- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> >> Kick the tires, light the fires, brief on Guard, first one airborne
>is
>> >> lead....
>>
>> >> We agree.
>>
>> >> Kirk
>> >> 66
>>
>> >Damn, Kirk! =A0Did we fly together? =A0I holler over the side to my
>crew
>> >chief, "I got EGT, you got noise?"
>>
>> >Seems to me that, in a glider, the only necessary checklist is "Gear
-
>> >DOWN".
>>
>> >I suppose some have attempted takeoff with the canopy open but Darwin
>> >is lurking just around the corner and a checklist won't protect you
>> >from him...
>
>Now, now... Nobody's telling anybody to get out of the sky.
>
>I'm only objecting to the mind-set that you MUST use a checklist. In
>the traffic pattern is no place to be reading a book on how to fly
>your glider. You should know what to do, when to do it, and you
>should know your glider well enough to feel when things aren't right,
>i.e., wings still full, dive brakes not open, glider not yet on the
>ground. If you need a mnemonic to remember these things, fine, but
>please don't be flipping charts on the top of the panel while sharing
>the pattern with me.
>

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 07:29:21 -0700, Andy wrote:

> The extremes range between mnemonic+short, and written+long.
>
It is possible to skewer the middle ground with written+short: our club
gliders have a piece of Dymo tape on the panel that reads CBSIFTCBE.

> With only one exception during the
> preflight checks the crew responded to "cockpit door" with "closed and
> locked". That was interesting because the door was secured wide open to
> allow instrumentation wiring to pass to the rear cabin.
>
:-)

Question: how easy was it for the crew to check that the door was locked,
visually or otherwise, without getting up and rattling the handle? If it
wasn't possible I'd suggest the 'cockpit door' item was dead in the water
and best removed no matter what DHS/FAA might have to say about it.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Mark Jardini]

Yeah, but you AF fighter jocks are not like us mere mortals. I used to
think I was a good pilot until I became a flight doc. There is a
another whole level of airmanship that most of us will never achieve.
USAF training selects the best and makes them better.

Mark Jardini ANG(ret)

(uses a checklist)

[kirk.stant]

On Mar 29, 1:25*pm, Mark Jardini > wrote:
> Yeah, but you AF fighter jocks are not like us mere mortals. I used to
> think I was a good pilot until I became a flight doc. There is a
> another whole level of airmanship that most of us will never achieve.
> USAF training selects the best and makes them better.
>
> Mark Jardini ANG(ret)
>
> (uses a checklist)

I tend to think it is more the result of thorough training and
constant practice, in an environment where you have to actually do
something while flying the plane all the time (instead of watching the
glass while george does the driving). And that applies to pretty much
all military flying, or professional flying like cropdusters and
medivac helos.

Interestingly, serious (XC, contest, acro) glider flying is in many
ways very similar to tactical flying in fighters - just a bit
slower.

As glider pilots, we tend to have only basic (if often excellent)
training, then it's up to us to develop and maintain currency and
advance our skills.

That takes time and dedication. And money - for those 5000' tows on
calm winter days when you go up to practice the basics even though you
have 2000 hrs in your glider. Many glider pilots just aren't willing
(or able) to do that.

Perhaps that is what leads to "checklists" that read like a page out
of a training manual - and perhaps they are necessary for many
pilots. But judging by our accident record, that approach may not be
the best...

Kirk
66

[Dan Marotta]

On Mar 29, 4:24*pm, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
> On Mar 29, 1:25*pm, Mark Jardini > wrote:
>
> > Yeah, but you AF fighter jocks are not like us mere mortals. I used to
> > think I was a good pilot until I became a flight doc. There is a
> > another whole level of airmanship that most of us will never achieve.
> > USAF training selects the best and makes them better.
>
> > Mark Jardini ANG(ret)
>
> > (uses a checklist)
>
> I tend to think it is more the result of thorough training and
> constant practice, in an environment where you have to actually do
> something while flying the plane all the time (instead of watching the
> glass while george does the driving). *And that applies to pretty much
> all military flying, or professional flying like cropdusters and
> medivac helos.
>
> Interestingly, serious (XC, contest, acro) glider flying is in many
> ways very similar to tactical flying in fighters - just a bit
> slower.
>
> As glider pilots, we tend to have only basic (if often excellent)
> training, then it's up to us to develop and maintain currency and
> advance our skills.
>
> That takes time and dedication. *And money - for those 5000' tows on
> calm winter days when you go up to practice the basics even though you
> have 2000 hrs in your glider. *Many glider pilots just aren't willing
> (or able) to do that.
>
> Perhaps that is what leads to "checklists" that read like a page out
> of a training manual - and perhaps they are necessary for many
> pilots. *But judging by our accident record, that approach may not be
> the best...
>
> Kirk
> 66

No offense intended, and none taken.

Andy's spot on regarding challenge and response checklists. We get so
used to making the response (whether to another crew member or to
ourselves) that, sometimes, the response is the only action taken. "I
didn't hear the tower's warning about the landing gear because there
was this loud horn blaring in my headset."

Once, as a flight engineer, I had a first officer center the gear
handle on a 727 before the gear doors had time to close. Not too much
of a problem except we were on a two-engine recovery flight (CLE-DFW)
and there was a blizzard blowing outside. Checklist said something
like Gear lever - Up and Off. He waved me to shut up as I warned
about the hanging door (again, only two engines turning) so I
unstrapped, reached over him, raised the gear handle until the doors
closed, and then centered it. The captain nodded in approval.

Remember the first officer worrying that something was wrong and the
captain saying it was OK (Air Florida, DCA)? Checklists are no
substitute for airmanship.

OK, I'm gonna go tow some gliders now...