(USA) logbook endorsement requirement(s) for new glider type?

[Tuno]

For as long as I've been flying anything, including and especially
gliders, I've had a CFI endorse a cockpit checkout in my logbook, for
any new aircraft type I flew.

Can someone tell me what/who requires this? Is it strictly insurance
companies, or is there a relevant FAR paragraph?

The reason I'm asking is that when I went to the local gliderport
yesterday to get a cockpit checkout in the LS-8, the on duty CFI
declined to sign an endorsement conducted by someone else, and he
would not do the checkout himself because he was not an LS-8 pilot.

I can't imagine that every CFI is able to personally conduct cockpit
checkouts in all glider types (with all due respect, Mr Compton).

The last six such checkouts I've received were performed by a non-CFI
and signed off by a CFI.

~ted/2n7o

[bildan]

An instructor endorsement for a cockpit checkout is imposed by
insurance companies not the FAR's. I understand your local
instructor's attitude, I'm very reluctant to endorse logbooks for
single seat gliders in which I have no experience.

I have been on the other side of this scenario needing an
endorsement. My approach was to go to considerable lengths to find an
instructor who had considerable experience in the type if not actually
owned one. My objective was to learn enough from him to fly the thing
safely and well. The insurance requirement was secondary.

Bill D

On Mar 30, 9:20*pm, Tuno > wrote:
> For as long as I've been flying anything, including and especially
> gliders, I've had a CFI endorse a cockpit checkout in my logbook, for
> any new aircraft type I flew.
>
> Can someone tell me what/who requires this? Is it strictly insurance
> companies, or is there a relevant FAR paragraph?
>
> The reason I'm asking is that when I went to the local gliderport
> yesterday to get a cockpit checkout in the LS-8, the on duty CFI
> declined to sign an endorsement conducted by someone else, and he
> would not do the checkout himself because he was not an LS-8 pilot.
>
> I can't imagine that every CFI is able to personally conduct cockpit
> checkouts in all glider types (with all due respect, Mr Compton).
>
> The last six such checkouts I've received were performed by a non-CFI
> and signed off by a CFI.
>
> ~ted/2n7o

[Mike the Strike]

On Mar 30, 9:00*pm, bildan > wrote:
> An instructor endorsement for a cockpit checkout is imposed by
> insurance companies not the FAR's. *I understand your local
> instructor's attitude, I'm very reluctant to endorse logbooks for
> single seat gliders in which I have no experience.
>
> I have been on the other side of this scenario needing an
> endorsement. *My approach was to go to considerable lengths to find an
> instructor who had considerable experience in the type if not actually
> owned one. *My objective was to learn enough from him to fly the thing
> safely and well. *The insurance requirement was secondary.
>
> Bill D
>
> On Mar 30, 9:20*pm, Tuno > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > For as long as I've been flying anything, including and especially
> > gliders, I've had a CFI endorse a cockpit checkout in my logbook, for
> > any new aircraft type I flew.
>
> > Can someone tell me what/who requires this? Is it strictly insurance
> > companies, or is there a relevant FAR paragraph?
>
> > The reason I'm asking is that when I went to the local gliderport
> > yesterday to get a cockpit checkout in the LS-8, the on duty CFI
> > declined to sign an endorsement conducted by someone else, and he
> > would not do the checkout himself because he was not an LS-8 pilot.
>
> > I can't imagine that every CFI is able to personally conduct cockpit
> > checkouts in all glider types (with all due respect, Mr Compton).
>
> > The last six such checkouts I've received were performed by a non-CFI
> > and signed off by a CFI.
>
> > ~ted/2n7o

Tuno:

You know where to come - TUSC has several instructors, one of whom
owns an LS-8 and would no doubt be happy to help.

Usual beer penalty applies!

Mike

[Tuno]

Thanks Mike but Roy C arrived to help out. Otherwise I could not have
enjoyed the LS-8 flight yesterday afternoon.

It's bad enough when the gubment goonies shake regulations at us while
they're shaking us down; I didn't expect to get the outsider treatment
from the staff CFI at the gliderport where I've spent the most money
in the last six years, at the moment I was all hormoned up to get back
in the air after seven months of smokin' videos and soiled Soaring
centerfolds.

No offense taken though, I understand where he was coming from. Sorta.

We race this weekend

2N7O

[T8]

That's a pretty heavy dose of CYA, all around.

I can see it now.

"Gee, you mean I bought this brand new ASH-31 and no one will check me
out?" C'mon.

Y'all are taking the gummint mindset way too far.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

[[email protected][_2_]]

Since cockpit checks are insurance rules and not gov't rules why the
fear of giving cockpit check signoffs? What is the insurance company
going to do to a CFI for a giving a cockpit check prior to an
accident(causal or not)?

[qflyer1]

On Mar 31, 8:56*am, " >
wrote:
> Since cockpit checks are insurance rules and not gov't rules why the
> fear of giving cockpit check signoffs? *What is the insurance company
> going to do to a CFI for a giving a cockpit check prior to an
> accident(causal or not)?

As a CFIG, I just make sure the pilot is familiar with the operating
limits, speeds, handling characteristics, etc.
I also like him or her to close their eyes and grab spoilers, flaps,
gear, etc.
In other words, I want to know they are prepped well.
No, I don't believe I have flown everything, yet...

Cheers,
Tim

[[email protected]]

On Mar 30, 11:20*pm, Tuno > wrote:
> For as long as I've been flying anything, including and especially
> gliders, I've had a CFI endorse a cockpit checkout in my logbook, for
> any new aircraft type I flew.
>
> Can someone tell me what/who requires this? Is it strictly insurance
> companies, or is there a relevant FAR paragraph?
>
> The reason I'm asking is that when I went to the local gliderport
> yesterday to get a cockpit checkout in the LS-8, the on duty CFI
> declined to sign an endorsement conducted by someone else, and he
> would not do the checkout himself because he was not an LS-8 pilot.
>
> I can't imagine that every CFI is able to personally conduct cockpit
> checkouts in all glider types (with all due respect, Mr Compton).
>
> The last six such checkouts I've received were performed by a non-CFI
> and signed off by a CFI.
>
> ~ted/2n7o

What's the big deal..?

A cockpit checkout is pretty simple....just get the POH and sit down
for a while and get familiar......a cockpit check out is not a flight
check out.....

I mean its like..ok, where's the flap handle?...ok now where's the
spoiler handle?...ok release?...canopy jettison? etc...now let's make
you're seat comfy...

I have "cockpit checked" lots of pilots in gliders models which I
have not flown......Gliders are not all that different from one to
another........If someone is around with personal experience in this
model, I will definitely bring him in on the discussion....but not
necessary....

If they guy just bought the New Super XL5000 glider....it is up to him
to be flight competent...The pilot should consult with some
experienced people to answer any questions on handling...special
techniques, any quirks etc. I have occasionaly suggested some more
dual training and solo experience before the guy flies his new toy!


Cookie

[Tony V]

On 3/30/2011 11:20 PM, Tuno wrote:

> The reason I'm asking is that when I went to the local gliderport
> yesterday to get a cockpit checkout in the LS-8, the on duty CFI
> declined to sign an endorsement conducted by someone else,

I would have, and have in the past, endorsed a pilot for a glider type
that I have never flown, IF the actual check out was done by a pilot
that I knew to have extensive experience in type and if I was present
while it was being performed. I learn something too. As others have
said, it's an insurance company requirement.

Tony V.

[Papa3]

On Mar 30, 11:20*pm, Tuno > wrote:
> For as long as I've been flying anything, including and especially
> gliders, I've had a CFI endorse a cockpit checkout in my logbook, for
> any new aircraft type I flew.
>
> Can someone tell me what/who requires this? Is it strictly insurance
> companies, or is there a relevant FAR paragraph?
>
> The reason I'm asking is that when I went to the local gliderport
> yesterday to get a cockpit checkout in the LS-8, the on duty CFI
> declined to sign an endorsement conducted by someone else, and he
> would not do the checkout himself because he was not an LS-8 pilot.
>
> I can't imagine that every CFI is able to personally conduct cockpit
> checkouts in all glider types (with all due respect, Mr Compton).
>
> The last six such checkouts I've received were performed by a non-CFI
> and signed off by a CFI.
>
> ~ted/2n7o

Glad to see you're finally stepping up to a real glider. We don't
need no stinkin' flaps.

I get asked to do the cockpit checkouts all of the time and do them
gladly. I don't agree that it's always a no-brainer. Each ship
usually has one or two quirks that are worth knowing about. I sit
with the owner/seller and the new pilot on any ship I'm not familiar
with and ask a few questions about the stuff that's NOT really in the
POH. If it's something out of the ordinary (an early Diamant comes to
mind), I'll do a LOT more work as the CFI-G to be ready for that
one. "Hello, Mr. Moffat..."

Just for example, I guarandamntee you that as a Schleicher driver, you
will absolutely haul back on the canopy release on the LS8 under
stress in one of your early flights (rolled out a little short
blocking the runway with someone coming in behind you). If you pull
the right handle one "click" past the normal stops (very easy to do
with a little extra adrenaline), you'll suddenly find yourself withe
the canopy floating in your lap. Safety of flight issue? Probably
not. Potential to break a $3,000 canopy. Yup.

Sorry, not really what you asked.

Erik Mann
LS8-18 (P3)

[Andy[_1_]]

On Mar 30, 8:20*pm, Tuno > wrote:
> For as long as I've been flying anything, including and especially
> gliders, I've had a CFI endorse a cockpit checkout in my logbook, for
> any new aircraft type I flew.
>
> Can someone tell me what/who requires this? Is it strictly insurance
> companies, or is there a relevant FAR paragraph?
>
> The reason I'm asking is that when I went to the local gliderport
> yesterday to get a cockpit checkout in the LS-8, the on duty CFI
> declined to sign an endorsement conducted by someone else, and he
> would not do the checkout himself because he was not an LS-8 pilot.
>
> I can't imagine that every CFI is able to personally conduct cockpit
> checkouts in all glider types (with all due respect, Mr Compton).
>
> The last six such checkouts I've received were performed by a non-CFI
> and signed off by a CFI.
>
> ~ted/2n7o

Ted,

If I have no direct experience in type I make sure that the pilot has
been briefed by someone that has. I then endorse to the effect that
pilot name has been given a briefing for glider xx.

I would have been happy to sign you off since I know both you and
Ralph.

Andy

[Tony[_5_]]

I haven't had the privilege of instructing at a club where new glass
shows up regularly and these sort of checkouts are required by
insurance companies. I assume that Costello does not accept a cockpit
checkout to be endorsed by a non CFI-G? I wonder if they'd be willing
to waive that requirement on a case by case basis. As an instructor
i'm a bit hesitant to sign off on instruction that i didn't do or am
not really qualified to do. but thats just me.

[[email protected]]

On Mar 31, 9:19*am, "
> wrote:
> On Mar 30, 11:20*pm, Tuno > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > For as long as I've been flying anything, including and especially
> > gliders, I've had a CFI endorse a cockpit checkout in my logbook, for
> > any new aircraft type I flew.
>
> > Can someone tell me what/who requires this? Is it strictly insurance
> > companies, or is there a relevant FAR paragraph?
>
> > The reason I'm asking is that when I went to the local gliderport
> > yesterday to get a cockpit checkout in the LS-8, the on duty CFI
> > declined to sign an endorsement conducted by someone else, and he
> > would not do the checkout himself because he was not an LS-8 pilot.
>
> > I can't imagine that every CFI is able to personally conduct cockpit
> > checkouts in all glider types (with all due respect, Mr Compton).
>
> > The last six such checkouts I've received were performed by a non-CFI
> > and signed off by a CFI.
>
> > ~ted/2n7o
>
> What's the big deal..?
>
> A cockpit checkout is pretty simple....just get the POH and sit down
> for a while and get familiar......a cockpit check out is not a flight
> check out.....
>
> I mean its like..ok, where's the flap handle?...ok now where's the
> spoiler handle?...ok release?...canopy jettison? etc...now let's make
> you're seat comfy...
>
> I have "cockpit checked" *lots of pilots in gliders models which I
> have not flown......Gliders are not all that different from one to
> another........If someone is around with personal experience in this
> model, I will definitely bring him in on the discussion....but not
> necessary....
>
> If they guy just bought the New Super XL5000 glider....it is up to him
> to be flight competent...The pilot should consult with some
> experienced people to answer any questions on handling...special
> techniques, any quirks etc. *I have occasionaly suggested some more
> dual training and solo experience before the guy flies his new toy!
>
> Cookie- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

The one thing I would add is that this does permit and requires the
CFI, who presumably knows the pilot and his experience/skills to
exercise an important judgement on whether the pilot is qualified to
fly the type of glider he's asking to be checked out in
UH

[mattm[_2_]]

On Mar 31, 12:15*pm, wrote:
> On Mar 31, 9:19*am, "
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > On Mar 30, 11:20*pm, Tuno > wrote:
>
> > > For as long as I've been flying anything, including and especially
> > > gliders, I've had a CFI endorse a cockpit checkout in my logbook, for
> > > any new aircraft type I flew.
>
> > > Can someone tell me what/who requires this? Is it strictly insurance
> > > companies, or is there a relevant FAR paragraph?
>
> > > The reason I'm asking is that when I went to the local gliderport
> > > yesterday to get a cockpit checkout in the LS-8, the on duty CFI
> > > declined to sign an endorsement conducted by someone else, and he
> > > would not do the checkout himself because he was not an LS-8 pilot.
>
> > > I can't imagine that every CFI is able to personally conduct cockpit
> > > checkouts in all glider types (with all due respect, Mr Compton).
>
> > > The last six such checkouts I've received were performed by a non-CFI
> > > and signed off by a CFI.
>
> > > ~ted/2n7o
>
> > What's the big deal..?
>
> > A cockpit checkout is pretty simple....just get the POH and sit down
> > for a while and get familiar......a cockpit check out is not a flight
> > check out.....
>
> > I mean its like..ok, where's the flap handle?...ok now where's the
> > spoiler handle?...ok release?...canopy jettison? etc...now let's make
> > you're seat comfy...
>
> > I have "cockpit checked" *lots of pilots in gliders models which I
> > have not flown......Gliders are not all that different from one to
> > another........If someone is around with personal experience in this
> > model, I will definitely bring him in on the discussion....but not
> > necessary....
>
> > If they guy just bought the New Super XL5000 glider....it is up to him
> > to be flight competent...The pilot should consult with some
> > experienced people to answer any questions on handling...special
> > techniques, any quirks etc. *I have occasionaly suggested some more
> > dual training and solo experience before the guy flies his new toy!
>
> > Cookie- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> The one thing I would add is that this does permit and requires the
> CFI, who presumably knows the pilot and his experience/skills to
> exercise an important judgement on whether the pilot is qualified to
> fly the type of glider he's asking to be checked out in
> UH

We've had this discussion regularly in our club since we have a couple
of one seaters (one glass) and a fair contingent of new owners over
the
years. The insurance policy is what requires the cockpit checkout --
Costello won't cover you unless you have a CFI endorsement logged
for that particular glider. Checkout in type doesn't count. When we
replaced our L33 we had to re-check everyone out to fly it.

In my case when I was checked out to fly the glass ship it was done
by a pilot with a fair bit of experience in the plane, with the duty
CFI
observing. Also note that there's more to a checkout than where
the controls are; assembly of any plane has its quirks. The 304CZ
parked next to mine at the airport has a new owner who's going
through a fair bit of teething pain getting used to assembly. His
previous plane stayed assembled in a hangar all year long so he's
really not used to this.

-- Matt

[Andy[_1_]]

On Mar 31, 8:04*am, Tony > wrote:
> I haven't had the privilege of instructing at a club where new glass
> shows up regularly and these sort of checkouts are required by
> insurance companies. *I assume that Costello does not accept a cockpit
> checkout to be endorsed by a non CFI-G? *I wonder if they'd be willing
> to waive that requirement on a case by case basis. *As an instructor
> i'm a bit hesitant to sign off on instruction that i didn't do or am
> not really qualified to do. but thats just me.

I carefully read what was required by the insurance policy and was
satisfied that my endorsement was compatible with the policy
requirements.

I have never provided an endorement that stated that I gave
instruction that I did not actually give. "Has been given" does not
assert that "I gave".

Andy

[Nyal Williams[_2_]]

I don't mind giving a cockpit checkout in gliders I have not flown. My
statement says simply that the pilot has read the POH and that I have
conducted a review of the instruments and flight controls, and then sign
that statement.

Actually I do more than that; I have a 2-page checklist that covers
questions about the documentation, special restrictions, static source,
tow hitch, baggage compartment, aircraft AD compliance, etc. None of that
gets mentioned in the logbook entry and I warn the pilot that I am not
endorsing flight. This is about the aircraft and not about the pilot.


the At 17:43 31 March 2011, Andy wrote:
>On Mar 31, 8:04=A0am, Tony wrote:
>> I haven't had the privilege of instructing at a club where new glass
>> shows up regularly and these sort of checkouts are required by
>> insurance companies. =A0I assume that Costello does not accept a
cockpit
>> checkout to be endorsed by a non CFI-G? =A0I wonder if they'd be
willing
>> to waive that requirement on a case by case basis. =A0As an instructor
>> i'm a bit hesitant to sign off on instruction that i didn't do or am
>> not really qualified to do. but thats just me.
>
>I carefully read what was required by the insurance policy and was
>satisfied that my endorsement was compatible with the policy
>requirements.
>
>I have never provided an endorement that stated that I gave
>instruction that I did not actually give. "Has been given" does not
>assert that "I gave".
>
>Andy
>

[[email protected]]

On Mar 31, 12:57*pm, mattm > wrote:
> On Mar 31, 12:15*pm, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 31, 9:19*am, "
>
> > > wrote:
> > > On Mar 30, 11:20*pm, Tuno > wrote:
>
> > > > For as long as I've been flying anything, including and especially
> > > > gliders, I've had a CFI endorse a cockpit checkout in my logbook, for
> > > > any new aircraft type I flew.
>
> > > > Can someone tell me what/who requires this? Is it strictly insurance
> > > > companies, or is there a relevant FAR paragraph?
>
> > > > The reason I'm asking is that when I went to the local gliderport
> > > > yesterday to get a cockpit checkout in the LS-8, the on duty CFI
> > > > declined to sign an endorsement conducted by someone else, and he
> > > > would not do the checkout himself because he was not an LS-8 pilot.
>
> > > > I can't imagine that every CFI is able to personally conduct cockpit
> > > > checkouts in all glider types (with all due respect, Mr Compton).
>
> > > > The last six such checkouts I've received were performed by a non-CFI
> > > > and signed off by a CFI.
>
> > > > ~ted/2n7o
>
> > > What's the big deal..?
>
> > > A cockpit checkout is pretty simple....just get the POH and sit down
> > > for a while and get familiar......a cockpit check out is not a flight
> > > check out.....
>
> > > I mean its like..ok, where's the flap handle?...ok now where's the
> > > spoiler handle?...ok release?...canopy jettison? etc...now let's make
> > > you're seat comfy...
>
> > > I have "cockpit checked" *lots of pilots in gliders models which I
> > > have not flown......Gliders are not all that different from one to
> > > another........If someone is around with personal experience in this
> > > model, I will definitely bring him in on the discussion....but not
> > > necessary....
>
> > > If they guy just bought the New Super XL5000 glider....it is up to him
> > > to be flight competent...The pilot should consult with some
> > > experienced people to answer any questions on handling...special
> > > techniques, any quirks etc. *I have occasionaly suggested some more
> > > dual training and solo experience before the guy flies his new toy!
>
> > > Cookie- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > The one thing I would add is that this does permit and requires the
> > CFI, who presumably knows the pilot and his experience/skills to
> > exercise an important judgement on whether the pilot is qualified to
> > fly the type of glider he's asking to be checked out in
> > UH
>
> We've had this discussion regularly in our club since we have a couple
> of one seaters (one glass) and a fair contingent of new owners over
> the
> years. *The insurance policy is what requires the cockpit checkout --
> Costello won't cover you unless you have a CFI endorsement logged
> for that particular glider. *Checkout in type doesn't count. *When we
> replaced our L33 we had to re-check everyone out to fly it.
>
> In my case when I was checked out to fly the glass ship it was done
> by a pilot with a fair bit of experience in the plane, with the duty
> CFI
> observing. *Also note that there's more to a checkout than where
> the controls are; assembly of any plane has its quirks. *The 304CZ
> parked next to mine at the airport has a new owner who's going
> through a fair bit of teething pain getting used to assembly. *His
> previous plane stayed assembled in a hangar all year long so he's
> really not used to this.
>
> -- Matt- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I think you have gone beyond a "cockpit" check out, when you get into
"assembly" check out....

Does the insurance companies specify what they consider as the items
to be covered during a "cockpit check out" ? They do seem to
specify CFI as the qualified person....

I don't think the pilot with a new plane or his insurance company
should consider a "cockpit check out" to entail a check out of every
nook and cranny, assembly, flight envelope, blah blah blah..etc...

The pilot is certainly entitled to, encougaged to, seek out advise and
expertise far beyond the cockpit check out....Common sense dictates
this...but the OP was about insurance requirement...

The ultimate responsibility falls on the pilot in command here...not
the instructor who signs ..."cockpit check completed as equired by
insurance co."

But as far as the FAA, a person holding a glider certificate..private
or higher, is qualified to fly any glider....
The isnurance company has additional requirements, like certain total
hours, experience in level of performance etc.....but they don't
determine whether the pilot is qualifed to fly the glider or
not....their requirements determine whether the pilot qualifies for
insurance coverage..or not

Cookie

[Andy[_10_]]

On Mar 30, 9:00*pm, bildan > wrote:
> An instructor endorsement for a cockpit checkout is imposed by
> insurance companies not the FAR's. *I understand your local
> instructor's attitude, I'm very reluctant to endorse logbooks for
> single seat gliders in which I have no experience.
>
> I have been on the other side of this scenario needing an
> endorsement. *My approach was to go to considerable lengths to find an
> instructor who had considerable experience in the type if not actually
> owned one. *My objective was to learn enough from him to fly the thing
> safely and well. *The insurance requirement was secondary.
>
> Bill D
>

So how does a pilot taking the first US delivery of a new glider type
ever get a checkout? And If that guy somehow manages it and isn't
himself a CFI, how does the second pilot taking delivery of that type
get checked out?

Seems to me like the spirit of the requirement would not necessarily
require the CFI to have experience in type, or even be witness to a
briefing by someone with experience in type.

9B

[[email protected]]

On Mar 31, 11:45*pm, Andy > wrote:
> On Mar 30, 9:00*pm, bildan > wrote:
>
> > An instructor endorsement for a cockpit checkout is imposed by
> > insurance companies not the FAR's. *I understand your local
> > instructor's attitude, I'm very reluctant to endorse logbooks for
> > single seat gliders in which I have no experience.
>
> > I have been on the other side of this scenario needing an
> > endorsement. *My approach was to go to considerable lengths to find an
> > instructor who had considerable experience in the type if not actually
> > owned one. *My objective was to learn enough from him to fly the thing
> > safely and well. *The insurance requirement was secondary.
>
> > Bill D
>
> So how does a pilot taking the first US delivery of a new glider type
> ever get a checkout? *And If that guy somehow manages it and isn't
> himself a CFI, how does the second pilot taking delivery of that type
> get checked out?
>
> Seems to me like the spirit of the requirement would not necessarily
> require the CFI to have experience in type, or even be witness to a
> briefing by someone with experience in type.
>
> 9B

Right....

Because, any "glider" Instructor is qualified to teach in any
glider.....whether he ever flew it or not.....and a "glider pilot" is
qualified to fly in any glider, with or without a 'checkout'....and
the isurance company only specifies a cockpit check by a CFI.....(no
requirement of experience in make in model blah blah blah)

Cookie

[Jim Beckman[_2_]]

At 03:45 01 April 2011, Andy wrote:
>
>Seems to me like the spirit of the requirement would not necessarily
>require the CFI to have experience in type, or even be witness to a
>briefing by someone with experience in type.

Seems to me the safest thing to do is just call the insurance company,
explain the circumstances, and ask what they would consider an acceptable
checkout. Phone calls are cheap. Insurance claims aren't.

Jim Beckman