looking for a wheel brake solution

[Tony[_5_]]

Hi everyone, I've been slowly working away on Leah's Cherokee II and
need to come up with a wheel brake solution. Previously it had a
4.10x3.5 tire. The axle diameter is 5/8".

The Cherokee II, per plans, has a piece of aluminum that gets pulled
down over the tire. This is the way my Cherokee II works too. It's a
decent brake but nothing really powerful, causes a bunch of tire smoke
when you really pull hard on the spoiler handle. Leah's spoiler
handle, however, was not built to accomodate the cables that would run
to such a friction brake. The cable for the airbrake does run past
the main wheel so there is potential to "Y" a new cable off that cable
and install a piece of aluminum. However then there would be side
loads on the aluminum and it just doesn't seem like that clean of a
solution to me.

Oh by the way the 4.10x3.5 tire is 2 ply, probably a go cart or
utility cart tire. So I'd like to get something a little more
robust.

I looked at the Matco website and found this 4" wheel/disk brake that
might do the trick: http://www.matcomfg.com/W40B-idv-2368-33.html I
believe that there is room geometrically for this wheel/brake to fit,
depending on the tire size that goes on it. That leads to one
question about tire specs, is the first number sidewall height and the
second number wheel size? for example a 4.00 x 4 tire would have a 4"
sidewall height and fit on a 4" tire? I used to know that but can't
remember.

I think the 1-26 uses a 4.00x4 tire, but can't remember if they have a
friction brake or a drum brake. I'm sure it might be difficult to
find a 1-26 wheel/brake laying around but it might be nice down the
road to have something that is semi common if i need replacement parts
etc.

any thoughts/suggestions? Thanks!

[John Scott[_3_]]

1-26 use a band brake against the tire. Some folks have regular brake
lining installed on the band which improve braking but at the expense of
increased tire wear.

John

[jsbrake[_2_]]

How about something like this:
http://www.defender.com/category.jsp?path=-1%7C10391&id=33872

- John

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Apr 11, 8:28*am, "John Scott" > wrote:
> 1-26 use a band brake against the tire. *Some folks have regular brake
> lining installed on the band which improve braking but at the expense of
> increased tire wear.
>
> John

That's what I did for my HP-11. I went down to the local place that
rebuilt brake shoes for heavy trucks and got a strip of brake shoe
friction lining and riveted it to the inner surface of the stainless
steel band that rubbed on the tire. I never really needed much more
brake than that.

For the tires, I used cheapie Cheng Shin 400x4 tires. The next larger
tire that fits that rim is the 500x4 8-ply also used on Ercoupe
nosewheels and AT-6 tailwheels. At $250 each, a bit rich for a band
brake!

Thanks, Bob K.

[Tony[_5_]]

On Apr 11, 12:02*pm, Bob Kuykendall > wrote:
> On Apr 11, 8:28*am, "John Scott" > wrote:
>
> > 1-26 use a band brake against the tire. *Some folks have regular brake
> > lining installed on the band which improve braking but at the expense of
> > increased tire wear.
>
> > John
>
> That's what I did for my HP-11. I went down to the local place that
> rebuilt brake shoes for heavy trucks and got a strip of brake shoe
> friction lining and riveted it to the inner surface of the stainless
> steel band that rubbed on the tire. I never really needed much more
> brake than that.
>
> For the tires, I used cheapie Cheng Shin 400x4 tires. The next larger
> tire that fits that rim is the 500x4 8-ply also used on Ercoupe
> nosewheels and AT-6 tailwheels. At $250 each, a bit rich for a band
> brake!
>
> Thanks, Bob K.

Bob,

My Cherokee II (per plans) also uses a 500x4 tire, and has a band
brake. Yes it motivates me to minimize the brake use when I don't
need it. I had to replace the tube a few years ago and that was
really painful on my then poor college kid/CFI income.

Can you verify that a 400x4 or 500x4 or anythingx4 tire fits on a 4"
wheel?

[Jim Beckman[_2_]]

At 15:28 11 April 2011, John Scott wrote:
>1-26 use a band brake against the tire. Some folks have regular brake
>lining installed on the band which improve braking but at the expense of

>increased tire wear.

There is at least one 1-26 out there (441, ex Ron Schwartz) that has a
mechanically operated drum brake on the main wheel. Originally, the 1-26
used a tire with a flat tread, like a car tire, not the round tread
aircraft type tire. That made the aluminum band work a lot better, since
it had a lot more area to rub against. I don't know that there is any
such tire available anymore suitable for use on an aircraft.

Jim Beckman

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Apr 11, 10:07*am, Tony > wrote:

> Can you verify that a 400x4 or 500x4 or anythingx4 tire fits on a *4"
> wheel?

I believe that's true. Understand, though, that the 400x4 has only
about 11" diameter, while the 500x4 has about 13" diameter. These days
there just aren't many options for tires in that range that offer the
ruggedness and shock absorption of the 500x4. The 13-500x4 industrial
tire that Dick Schreder specified for the HP-11 is NLA, so most HP-11
drivers are in the same boat.

One possibility might be to go to a 5" nosewheel or go-kart hub and a
cheap 500x5 aircraft tire. Most of those have around 14.3" diameter,
so it's a tight fit in a glider designed for 500x4, especially a
retractable like HP-11A. But maybe in the Cherokee you could just trim
away some of the wood with a pocket knife...

Thanks, Bob K.

[Grider Pirate]

On Apr 11, 3:09*pm, Bob Kuykendall > wrote:
> On Apr 11, 10:07*am, Tony > wrote:
>
> > Can you verify that a 400x4 or 500x4 or anythingx4 tire fits on a *4"
> > wheel?
>
> I believe that's true. Understand, though, that the 400x4 has only
> about 11" diameter, while the 500x4 has about 13" diameter. These days
> there just aren't many options for tires in that range that offer the
> ruggedness and shock absorption of the 500x4. The 13-500x4 industrial
> tire that Dick Schreder specified for the HP-11 is NLA, so most HP-11
> drivers are in the same boat.
>
> One possibility might be to go to a 5" nosewheel or go-kart hub and a
> cheap 500x5 aircraft tire. Most of those have around 14.3" diameter,
> so it's a tight fit in a glider designed for 500x4, especially a
> retractable like HP-11A. But maybe in the Cherokee you could just trim
> away some of the wood with a pocket knife...
>
> Thanks, Bob K.

You DO mean a sawzall, don't you?

[BruceGreeff]

Hi Jim

Lots of suitable - if not certified - tyres out there.
Many of the ride on mowers for golf courses and some of the smaller
quad-bikes use 4.00X4 tyres. Most of which have a flat tread design.

There are four and six ply available.

They do stirling work in our Bergfalke 2/55 - which has a skid with a
wheel recess that is too small for the rounded "aircraft" 4.00X4.

Necessity is the mother of invention.

Bruce

On 2011/04/11 10:03 PM, Jim Beckman wrote:
> At 15:28 11 April 2011, John Scott wrote:
>> 1-26 use a band brake against the tire. Some folks have regular brake
>> lining installed on the band which improve braking but at the expense of
>
>> increased tire wear.
>
> There is at least one 1-26 out there (441, ex Ron Schwartz) that has a
> mechanically operated drum brake on the main wheel. Originally, the 1-26
> used a tire with a flat tread, like a car tire, not the round tread
> aircraft type tire. That made the aluminum band work a lot better, since
> it had a lot more area to rub against. I don't know that there is any
> such tire available anymore suitable for use on an aircraft.
>
> Jim Beckman
>
>

--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771 & Std Cirrus #57

[Bob Kuykendall]

> You DO mean a sawzall, don't you?

;)

Bob K.

[Bob Luten]

> any thoughts/suggestions? *Thanks!

I replaced the 4-inch wheel with drum brake on my Apis with a Tost
Tria wheel with disk brake. See http://www.wingsandwheels.com/pdf/Tria.pdf
for a description.

-- Bob --

[Tony[_5_]]

On Apr 11, 6:05*pm, Bob Luten > wrote:
> > any thoughts/suggestions? *Thanks!
>
> I replaced the 4-inch wheel with drum brake on my Apis with a Tost
> Tria wheel with disk brake. *Seehttp://www.wingsandwheels.com/pdf/Tria.pdf
> for a description.
>
> * -- Bob --

interesting, do you remember what you paid for it? Otherwise I can
always email Tim, or he might chime in here.

Bob K - 5.00 x 5 would be ideal since that is a very popular airplane
size. Dean Gradwell converted his very nice Cherokee II to take a
5.00 x 5 tire for that reason, so it can be done. My constraint that
is driving me away from that is that it seems that a 5" wheel requires
a 3/4" axle and Leah's Cherokee is currently set up for a 5/8" axle.
Not impossible to convert but would require fabrication of new
fittings and some tearing apart and rebuilding. I have enough of that
to do the way it is. 4.00 x 4 aircraft tires are available from
Desser so there shouldn't be much of an issue getting them. Prices
are semi reasonable too.

[[email protected]]

On Apr 11, 9:35*pm, Tony > wrote:
> On Apr 11, 6:05*pm, Bob Luten > wrote:
>
> > > any thoughts/suggestions? *Thanks!
>
> > I replaced the 4-inch wheel with drum brake on my Apis with a Tost
> > Tria wheel with disk brake. *Seehttp://www.wingsandwheels.com/pdf/Tria.pdf
> > for a description.
>
> > * -- Bob --
>
> interesting, do you remember what you paid for it? *Otherwise I can
> always email Tim, or he might chime in here.
>
> Bob K - 5.00 x 5 would be ideal since that is a very popular airplane
> size. *Dean Gradwell converted his very nice Cherokee II to take a
> 5.00 x 5 tire for that reason, so it can be done. *My constraint that
> is driving me away from that is that it seems that a 5" wheel requires
> a 3/4" axle and Leah's Cherokee is currently set up for a 5/8" axle.
> Not impossible to convert but would require fabrication of new
> fittings and some tearing apart and rebuilding. *I have enough of that
> to do the way it is. *4.00 x 4 aircraft tires are available from
> Desser so there shouldn't be much of an issue getting them. *Prices
> are semi reasonable too.

You may want to consider using 5/8 axle and making a sleeve of .062
wall tubing to get to size required for bearings. We do this on 1-26's
so we can use more readily available bearings.
UH

[Tony[_5_]]

> You may want to consider using 5/8 axle and making a sleeve of .062
> wall tubing to get to size required for bearings. We do this on 1-26's
> so we can use more readily available bearings.
> UH

Hank,

yea, Pete made that suggestion last night offline which caused me slap
my forehead. duh! Anyway i looked at some 5" wheels this morning and
lo and behold matco actually has one with a 5/8" axle, I had missed it
apparently the last time I looked.

http://www.matcomfg.com/W50CC62D-idv-2350-29.html

Now I just have to check the width I have available, it might be tight.