Blue Ridge Crash

[Karen]

Can anyone from VA confirm what may have happened to Dr. Schneller,
more than just a "rope break".

www2.wsls.com/news/2011/apr/11/virginia-tech-professor-killed-craig-
county-glider-ar-964634/

Condolenses and best wishes to all Meir's family and friends.

[Walt Connelly]

Can anyone from VA confirm what may have happened to Dr. Schneller,
more than just a "rope break".

www2.wsls.com/news/2011/apr/11/virginia-tech-professor-killed-craig-
county-glider-ar-964634/

Condolenses and best wishes to all Meir's family and friends.

Always sad to hear of such incidents, we are reading about too many glider fatalities these days.

Condolences to the family.

Walt

[[email protected]]

On Apr 11, 8:19*pm, Karen > wrote:
> Can anyone from VA confirm what may have happened to Dr. Schneller,
> more than just a "rope break".
>


Story I got was that the L-33 took off with spoilers open. Glider was
wallowing on tow .. rolling left and right.....Rope broke.... glider
nose up.....and glider did stall / spin from about 400'.

Some say he ws "signalling" for more airspeed, some say just
wallowing.

L-33 has very powerful spoilers....



Cookie

[Walt Connelly]

On Apr 11, 8:19*pm, Karen wrote:
Can anyone from VA confirm what may have happened to Dr. Schneller,
more than just a "rope break".



Story I got was that the L-33 took off with spoilers open. Glider was
wallowing on tow .. rolling left and right.....Rope broke.... glider
nose up.....and glider did stall / spin from about 400'.

Some say he ws "signalling" for more airspeed, some say just
wallowing.

L-33 has very powerful spoilers....



Cookie

Wow Cookie, an avoidable accident for sure. Still it is incumbent upon all of us to help reduce or eliminate these situations. When I am the wing runner, unless a pilot tells me he is taking off with partial spoilers I try to insure that they are closed and that the tail dolly is off among other things. We see this all too often. While it is ultimately the pilot's error, the tow pilot might have caught this in his mirror before take off, the wing runner might have noted them open. All involved have a duty to call things to a halt when something isn't right. Not pointing the finger at anyone but the more sets of eyes the better. It will be impossible to completely eliminate all potential problems but we must all do what we can to reduce them. Checklist anyone? Condolences to the family and friends.

Walt

Walt

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Tue, 12 Apr 2011 19:45:21 +0000, Walt Connelly wrote:

> When I am the
> wing runner, unless a pilot tells me he is taking off with partial
> spoilers I try to insure that they are closed and that the tail dolly
> is off among other things.
>
I agree that the tail dolly is easily spottable by wing runner, etc., but
this doesn't necessarily apply to airbrakes. If they are unlocked, on
many gliders they'll be flush with the wing surface so that neither wing
runner or tow pilot can tell whether they are locked or not and will suck
open during the launch.

In my club we use the CBSIFTCBE check where the Brakes item requires the
pilot to open the brakes fully, check for equal extension, do the same
for half brake, and then close and lock them. This, by itself, is a
pretty good assurance that they'll be locked but the pilot can still get
interrupted while he's doing checks and forget 'brakes', so this season
the winch cable hooker-onner has instructions not to put the cable on
unless the pilot explicitly says "Brakes locked: cable on, please" and to
prompt the pilot if he doesn't report brakes locked.

This procedure also makes sense for aero tow.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Walt Connelly]

;768541']On Tue, 12 Apr 2011 19:45:21 +0000, Walt Connelly wrote:

When I am the
wing runner, unless a pilot tells me he is taking off with partial
spoilers I try to insure that they are closed and that the tail dolly
is off among other things.

I agree that the tail dolly is easily spottable by wing runner, etc., but
this doesn't necessarily apply to airbrakes. If they are unlocked, on
many gliders they'll be flush with the wing surface so that neither wing
runner or tow pilot can tell whether they are locked or not and will suck
open during the launch.

In my club we use the CBSIFTCBE check where the Brakes item requires the
pilot to open the brakes fully, check for equal extension, do the same
for half brake, and then close and lock them. This, by itself, is a
pretty good assurance that they'll be locked but the pilot can still get
interrupted while he's doing checks and forget 'brakes', so this season
the winch cable hooker-onner has instructions not to put the cable on
unless the pilot explicitly says "Brakes locked: cable on, please" and to
prompt the pilot if he doesn't report brakes locked.

This procedure also makes sense for aero tow.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Good point, well taken. While the brakes can suck open if not locked, the wing runner visual inspection is only part of the safety sequence. Still I have seen people give me the thumbs up while the spoilers were clearly open. The requirement to have the pilot specifically state "brakes locked, cable on please," is a good one. The more we can do to eliminate errors the better.

Walt

[Andy[_1_]]

On Apr 13, 7:06*am, Walt Connelly <Walt.Connelly.
> wrote:
> 'Martin Gregorie[_5_ Wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > ;768541']On Tue, 12 Apr 2011 19:45:21 +0000, Walt Connelly wrote:
> > -
> > When I am the
> > wing runner, unless a pilot tells me he is taking off with partial
> > spoilers I try to insure that * they are closed and that the tail
> > dolly
> > is off among other things.
> > -
> > I agree that the tail dolly is easily spottable by wing runner, etc.,
> > but
> > this doesn't necessarily apply to airbrakes. If they are unlocked, on
> > many gliders they'll be flush with the wing surface so that neither wing
>
> > runner or tow pilot can tell whether they are locked or not and will
> > suck
> > open during the launch.
>
> > In my club we use the CBSIFTCBE check where the Brakes item requires the
>
> > pilot to open the brakes fully, check for equal extension, do the same
> > for half brake, and then close and lock them. This, by itself, is a
> > pretty good assurance that they'll be locked but the pilot can still get
>
> > interrupted while he's doing checks and forget 'brakes', so this season
>
> > the winch cable hooker-onner has instructions not to put the cable on
> > unless the pilot explicitly says "Brakes locked: cable on, please" and
> > to
> > prompt the pilot if he doesn't report brakes locked.
>
> > This procedure also makes sense for aero tow.
>
> > --
> > martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
> > gregorie. | Essex, UK
> > org * * * |
>
> Good point, well taken. *While the brakes can suck open if not locked,
> the wing runner visual inspection is only part of the safety sequence.
> Still I have seen people give me the thumbs up while the spoilers were
> clearly open. The requirement to have the pilot specifically state
> "brakes locked, cable on please," is a good one. *The more we can do to
> eliminate errors the better.
>
> Walt
>
> --
> Walt Connelly- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Well I know it's been said many times before but ... Please recognize
that many pilots of Std Class gliders will always start takeoff roll
with airbrakes open. If you see the brakes moving it's a sign the
pilot's hand is on the handle and he knows they are open. If you see
the brakes open as the slack comes out, be aware that is a normal
event and do not stop the launch.

On most modern gliders brakes that are closed but not locked will
leave the brake caps slighly above flush. Look for that and if they
don't open then consider stopping the launch.

At a site where I am not known I'll usually tell the wing runner and
the tow pilot that the brakes will be open at the start of takeoff
roll. Some pilots cycle the brakes a few times as the slack comes out
so the tuggie knows what to expect.

Andy

[[email protected]]

On Apr 13, 5:32*pm, Andy > wrote:
> On Apr 13, 7:06*am, Walt Connelly <Walt.Connelly.
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > 'Martin Gregorie[_5_ Wrote:
>
> > > ;768541']On Tue, 12 Apr 2011 19:45:21 +0000, Walt Connelly wrote:
> > > -
> > > When I am the
> > > wing runner, unless a pilot tells me he is taking off with partial
> > > spoilers I try to insure that * they are closed and that the tail
> > > dolly
> > > is off among other things.
> > > -
> > > I agree that the tail dolly is easily spottable by wing runner, etc.,
> > > but
> > > this doesn't necessarily apply to airbrakes. If they are unlocked, on
> > > many gliders they'll be flush with the wing surface so that neither wing
>
> > > runner or tow pilot can tell whether they are locked or not and will
> > > suck
> > > open during the launch.
>
> > > In my club we use the CBSIFTCBE check where the Brakes item requires the
>
> > > pilot to open the brakes fully, check for equal extension, do the same
> > > for half brake, and then close and lock them. This, by itself, is a
> > > pretty good assurance that they'll be locked but the pilot can still get
>
> > > interrupted while he's doing checks and forget 'brakes', so this season
>
> > > the winch cable hooker-onner has instructions not to put the cable on
> > > unless the pilot explicitly says "Brakes locked: cable on, please" and
> > > to
> > > prompt the pilot if he doesn't report brakes locked.
>
> > > This procedure also makes sense for aero tow.
>
> > > --
> > > martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
> > > gregorie. | Essex, UK
> > > org * * * |
>
> > Good point, well taken. *While the brakes can suck open if not locked,
> > the wing runner visual inspection is only part of the safety sequence.
> > Still I have seen people give me the thumbs up while the spoilers were
> > clearly open. The requirement to have the pilot specifically state
> > "brakes locked, cable on please," is a good one. *The more we can do to
> > eliminate errors the better.
>
> > Walt
>
> > --
> > Walt Connelly- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Well I know it's been said many times before but ... Please recognize
> that many pilots of Std Class gliders will always start takeoff roll
> with airbrakes open. If you see the brakes moving it's a sign the
> pilot's hand is on the handle and he knows they are open. *If you see
> the brakes open as the slack comes out, be aware that is a normal
> event and do not stop the launch.
>
> On most modern gliders brakes that are closed but not locked will
> leave the brake caps slighly above flush. Look for that and if they
> don't open then consider stopping the launch.
>
> At a site where I am not known I'll usually tell the wing runner and
> the tow pilot that the brakes will be open at the start of takeoff
> roll. *Some pilots cycle the brakes a few times as the slack comes out
> so the tuggie knows what to expect.
>
> Andy- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Around here, we teach our pilots to keep the left hand lightly "on" or
near the spoiler handle. If the spoilers open up, you know right
away.

I always questioned the idea of starting the ground roll with the
spoilers open...but at least the guys who do that have their left hand
on the spoiler handle.

The pre take off checklist is 100% the responsibility of the
pilot.......the status of the spoilers (whether closed and locked, or
open for take off roll) should be on this checklist. Spoilers opening
on tow can only be the fault of one person, the PIC.

The ground crew is in no way responsible for the pilot's peflight
duties or pre take off duties. If the ground crew does notice a
problem, of course they should speak up, but I would rather see the
ground crew concentration on their own important responsibilties.

Cookie

[T8]

On Apr 13, 6:59*pm, "
> wrote:

> I always questioned the idea of starting the ground roll with the
> spoilers open...but at least the guys who do that have their left hand
> on the spoiler handle.

15m guys do it too. It's basic survival in some std class ships, but
it also aids start of launch roll control in my ASW-20, and I've seen
plenty of 27 guys do this as well. Various aerodynamic "theories" as
to why this is effective are not very satisfying, but it's clear the
technique is effective.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

[L33]

> Well I know it's been said many times before but ... Please recognize
> that many pilots of Std Class gliders will always start takeoff roll
> with airbrakes open.

Having owned and flown an L-33 (glider type cited by Cookie), I never
needed to use spoilers for takeoff because the ailerons were so
effective at very low speeds. So was the intentional use of spoilers
confirmed or is this just another theoretical discussion?

Horst

[[email protected]]

On Apr 13, 8:07*pm, L33 > wrote:
> > Well I know it's been said many times before but ... Please recognize
> > that many pilots of Std Class gliders will always start takeoff roll
> > with airbrakes open.
>
> Having owned and flown an L-33 (glider type cited by Cookie), I never
> needed to use spoilers for takeoff because the ailerons were so
> effective at very low speeds. So was the intentional use of spoilers
> confirmed or is this just another theoretical discussion?
>
> Horst

The facts as to how the spoilers came to be open on climb out have not
been presented. The only thing we know is
that they were not closed and locked at soem point after take off.
The most obvious, and likely, is a blown checklist.
It's Spring and everybody is rusty. We all have to remember that and
be extra careful and thorough.
UH

[[email protected]]

On Apr 13, 8:07*pm, L33 > wrote:
> > Well I know it's been said many times before but ... Please recognize
> > that many pilots of Std Class gliders will always start takeoff roll
> > with airbrakes open.
>
> Having owned and flown an L-33 (glider type cited by Cookie), I never
> needed to use spoilers for takeoff because the ailerons were so
> effective at very low speeds. So was the intentional use of spoilers
> confirmed or is this just another theoretical discussion?
>
> Horst

Let's not confuse thngs here. The intentional use of spoilers on
ground roll just came up in the discussion. Used in certain gliders
for better roll control at slow speeds during take off .......This is
an incidental discussion from the accident.

What I tried t point out, in general, is that pilots who intentionally
use spoiler on the take off roll, already have their hand on the
spoiler handle, and are already planning to close the spoiler once
aileron control is established, so it is unlikely that they would
somehow end up with unintentional, full open spoiler on tow.

The (third hand) report I got about the accident was the spoilers
opened in flight, on tow. This implies that they were closed but not
locked , and the "sucked" open once underway.....It seems like the
pilot was having some issues while on tow, and was unaware of the
spoilers open.

Cookie

[Walt Connelly]

The pre take off checklist is 100% the responsibility of the
pilot.......the status of the spoilers (whether closed and locked, or
open for take off roll) should be on this checklist. Spoilers opening
on tow can only be the fault of one person, the PIC.

The ground crew is in no way responsible for the pilot's peflight
duties or pre take off duties. If the ground crew does notice a
problem, of course they should speak up, but I would rather see the
ground crew concentration on their own important responsibilties.

Cookie[/QUOTE]

Got to disagree with you here Cookie. While FAULT and RESPONSIBILITY are interesting concepts, the ultimate result of a failure to comply can be a fatality. Therefore I would suggest that there is a shared responsibility in this situation. The more eyes, voices and training involved in the procedures the better, without going overboard of course. Airline Captains at one time were the unquestionable authority in the cockpit. Co-pilots were afraid to open their mouths even when they observed major errors. The attitudes and training have evolved so that today there is more of a Total Crew Concept being used which has reduced problems resulting in accidents.

The ground crew does have a responsibility to speak up as you noted but more than that, according to the Soaring Safety Foundation of the SSA they have a duty and responsibility to observe these things as part of the launch sequence. If I ever have the pleasure to launch you I give you my word that I will try to be as vigilant as possible and insure that things are done properly. I hope you and all the others who launch me in the years to come will do the same.

Walt

[Don Burns]

In about 20 years of glider flying I've taken off with my air brakes
unlocked four times even though I use a check list and verbalize it.
Usually something unusual happens at the launch site that breaks your
concentration. I've concluded I can never be error free and need a
system to protect me and the tow pilot when it happens again. I installed
a bungee cord fastened to the air brake handle and attached the other end
to a fixed point further forward. Adjust the tension so that you can
still pull the brakes to the rearmost position. There will be positive
pressure to hold the brakes closed even though they are not locked. I've
used the system on a Std. Cirrus and currently on an ASW 20.

Don














At 01:44 14 April 2011, wrote:
>On Apr 13, 8:07=A0pm, L33 wrote:
>> > Well I know it's been said many times before but ... Please
recognize
>> > that many pilots of Std Class gliders will always start takeoff roll
>> > with airbrakes open.
>>
>> Having owned and flown an L-33 (glider type cited by Cookie), I never
>> needed to use spoilers for takeoff because the ailerons were so
>> effective at very low speeds. So was the intentional use of spoilers
>> confirmed or is this just another theoretical discussion?
>>
>> Horst
>
>Let's not confuse thngs here. The intentional use of spoilers on
>ground roll just came up in the discussion. Used in certain gliders
>for better roll control at slow speeds during take off .......This is
>an incidental discussion from the accident.
>
>What I tried t point out, in general, is that pilots who intentionally
>use spoiler on the take off roll, already have their hand on the
>spoiler handle, and are already planning to close the spoiler once
>aileron control is established, so it is unlikely that they would
>somehow end up with unintentional, full open spoiler on tow.
>
>The (third hand) report I got about the accident was the spoilers
>opened in flight, on tow. This implies that they were closed but not
>locked , and the "sucked" open once underway.....It seems like the
>pilot was having some issues while on tow, and was unaware of the
>spoilers open.
>
>Cookie
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Andy[_1_]]

On Apr 13, 3:59*pm, "
> wrote:

> I always questioned the idea of starting the ground roll with the
> spoilers open..

Why would that be?

What standard class glider do you have the most experience in?

Andy

[Don Burns]

In about 20 years of glider flying I've taken off with my air brakes
unlocked four times even though I use a check list and verbalize it.
Usually something unusual happens at the launch site that breaks your
concentration. I've concluded I can never be error free and need a
system to protect me and the tow pilot when it happens again. I installed
a bungee cord fastened to the air brake handle and attached the other end
to a fixed point further forward. Adjust the tension so that you can
still pull the brakes to the rearmost position. There will be positive
pressure to hold the brakes closed even though they are not locked. I've
used the system on a Std. Cirrus and currently on an ASW 20.

Don














At 01:44 14 April 2011, wrote:
>On Apr 13, 8:07=A0pm, L33 wrote:
>> > Well I know it's been said many times before but ... Please
recognize
>> > that many pilots of Std Class gliders will always start takeoff roll
>> > with airbrakes open.
>>
>> Having owned and flown an L-33 (glider type cited by Cookie), I never
>> needed to use spoilers for takeoff because the ailerons were so
>> effective at very low speeds. So was the intentional use of spoilers
>> confirmed or is this just another theoretical discussion?
>>
>> Horst
>
>Let's not confuse thngs here. The intentional use of spoilers on
>ground roll just came up in the discussion. Used in certain gliders
>for better roll control at slow speeds during take off .......This is
>an incidental discussion from the accident.
>
>What I tried t point out, in general, is that pilots who intentionally
>use spoiler on the take off roll, already have their hand on the
>spoiler handle, and are already planning to close the spoiler once
>aileron control is established, so it is unlikely that they would
>somehow end up with unintentional, full open spoiler on tow.
>
>The (third hand) report I got about the accident was the spoilers
>opened in flight, on tow. This implies that they were closed but not
>locked , and the "sucked" open once underway.....It seems like the
>pilot was having some issues while on tow, and was unaware of the
>spoilers open.
>
>Cookie
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Cliff Hilty[_2_]]

At 14:20 14 April 2011, Andy wrote:
>On Apr 13, 3:59=A0pm, "
> wrote:
>
>> I always questioned the idea of starting the ground roll with the
>> spoilers open..
>
>Why would that be?
>
>What standard class glider do you have the most experience in?
>
>Andy
>

Still Off Topic but

I questioned Andy when he told me to do it in my 19 (he had one too at the
time) So I tested the theory. Next time you land at a nice and wide runway
and in no wind conditions, let the glider roll out without spoiler. As you
start to lose aileron control (your wing starts to drop with full aileron
deflection) open the spoilers. And watch what happens! In my 19 it would
Instantly come back under control and raise back to level.

Made a believer out of me :)

CH

[Darryl Ramm]

On Apr 14, 3:03*pm, Roberto Waltman > wrote:
> Walt Connelly wrote:
> >'Martin Gregorie wrote
> ...
> >> In my club we use the CBSIFTCBE check where the Brakes item requires the
> >> pilot to open the brakes fully, check for equal extension, do the same
> >> for half brake, and then close and lock them. This, by itself, is a
> >> pretty good assurance that they'll be locked but the pilot can still get
> >> interrupted ...
> ...
> > *While the brakes can suck open if not locked,
> >the wing runner visual inspection is only part of the safety sequence.
> >Still I have seen people give me the thumbs up while the spoilers were
> >clearly open.
>
> A long time ago I visited a soaring site in Israel. *The signal the
> glider pilots used to signal readiness to the tow pilot was not waving
> the rudder like in the USA, but opening and closing the
> spoilers/breaks twice.
> I was told one of the reasons for this was to make sure they were
> closed on TO.
> --
> Roberto Waltman
>
> [ Please reply to the group.
> * Return address is invalid ]

Not that I think Roberto was suggesting we change to be like this but
I think any organization needs to think hard about changing things
like this and I think its a surprising decision to do it the way
described. In this case we have a fairly universal rudder waggle that
is already well understood and this idea of using spoilers like this
seems very problematic. Some pilots are going to cycle the spoilers
anyhow before locking them and may be caught by surprise with the tow
pilot deciding its time to take off. What if you cycled the spoilers
but for whatever reason did not like how the overcenter lock felt. Now
you have to scramble to pull the tow release. In some locations with
sloped runways the spoilers may need to be open right up to when you
waggle the rudder to use the wheel brake to avoid the glider
overrunning the top rope, or they might need to be opened to stop the
glider rolling and then closed again. Was he just stopping the glider
rolling forward or was he wanting to take off? In the USA at Parowan
taking off downhill comes to mind.

Instead of changing things I'd hope more attention is paid to
checklist use to prevent problems, reinforcing first action from the
glider pilot to a poor climb on tow should be to check spoilers and to
proper signalling in the air--starting with tow pilots understanding
they should do nothing but keep climbing if they can do this until
they are at a safe height/location where the glider can land safely if
it releases and maybe use the radio (its the 21st century not the
dark ages, there are just no excuses for not using radios) if needed
then last resort fan the rudder (because of possible confusion about
what that signal means - and we've seen horrible accidents caused by
this confusion). And glider pilots need to work to understand those
signals. I mean "rock off" is pretty easy to remember, if he ain't
rocking I aint' getting off, and in a critical situation I am not
double guessing if the tow pilot is confused and wants me off -- if he
really wants me off he can let me eat rope. Practicing this stuff with
an instructor is a great idea, including cracking open and then
letting go of the spoiler handle on tow and seeing what happens, and
having the tow pilot throw you random signals are all great idea for a
spring refresher.

I've had spoilers self-deploy (no honest they decided to come out all
by themselves... :-( ) once on tow about 50' in the air, in a DG-1000S
and the Pigot hook worked great. The spoilers banging up and down make
a loud noise and naturally get your attention to lookign outside at
the spoilers. I had use a (written) checklist and thought I had locked
the spoilers before take off. Obviously I had not locked them
properly.

In the instruction for by certificate looking out the wing at the
spoilers was not emphasized much, that has really been corrected in
subsequent BFRs and check rides with different instructors.

Darryl

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 4/15/2011 11:11 AM, Darryl Ramm wrote:

>
> I've had spoilers self-deploy (no honest they decided to come out all
> by themselves... :-( ) once on tow about 50' in the air, in a DG-1000S
> and the Pigot hook worked great.

And now for my usual reminder: most DG owners can retrofit a Piggot hook
to their glider, following directions available from the factory (I
assume the info is still available there).

But wait, there's more: Cambridge 302 vario users can connect their gear
warning switches to the 302, and set it to also warn them if they
attempt a launch with the spoilers unlocked. It works really well on my
glider.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz