Re: Blue Ridge Crash

[Nick Kennedy]

>A long time ago I visited a soaring site in Israel. The signal the
>glider pilots used to signal readiness to the tow pilot was not waving
>the rudder like in the USA, but opening and closing the
>spoilers/breaks twice.
>I was told one of the reasons for this was to make sure they were
>closed on TO.
>--
>Roberto Waltman
>
This above post by Mr Waltman makes alot of sense to me and I would like
to see this procedure looked at closely. I am also a big fan of launching
with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years with
good results. Another thing I have trained myself to do is; When the
towplane / glider unit gets airborne and is in a steady state of climb, I
glance out to the left wing and look at the spoilers. It is easy to do
and your focus distance does not change much.

Another big issue for me is what really caused this accident, it sounds
like the rope or weak link broke. I don't think the rope should come
apart on a guy just because he has his spoilers out and the tow is slowly
progressing.

I've taken off in Parowan in my ASW-20 full of water with the spoilers
unlocked. I didn't think much of it untill the tow pilot called and
remarked about all the sink we were flying through!
We all make mistakes.
If the tug cannot climb and has to turn the glider loose, so be it. if
the tow starts going squirrily and the tow pilot is getting scared, turn
the glider loose. But it should be a decision made by the pilots, not a
P.O.S. rope break. Further more I think we need to all be using High
Quality ropes and weak links, and give up on that polypro.
The poly pro comes unthreaded,untied, it is EASILY damaged, it looks like
hell after only a few tows.
Look on the Wings and Wheels web page and look at the rope TOST puts out
and the Dacron Rope. Here in Telluride we ONLY use Dacron ropes because
they are reliable. If you have a rope break here, early on the tow, it is
really bad news. Heck it's bad news anywhere to have a rope break low.
It can be FATAL . lets get rid of those poly ropes. And in the long run
the Hi Quality ropes ARE cheaper, and when they are used up, you can use
them for other things, not just throw them away. How green is that?
Nick Kennedy
Grob Twin Astir TF
LS-6 XS
>

[Peter F[_2_]]

At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote:

>I am also a big fan of launchin
>with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years wit
>good results.

>Nick Kennedy
>Grob Twin Astir TF
>LS-6 XS
>

Consider the two scenarios.

1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the release.
You drop a wing pull off, start again.

2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on the
release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your glider
to bits.

Which one makes you feel more of an idiot?

What does it say in your flight manual bout launching?

Have you actually bothered to read that bit of the manual?

PF

[Dan Marotta]

On Apr 15, 3:33*am, Peter F > wrote:
> At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote:
>
> >I am also a big fan of launchin
> >with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years wit
> >good results.
> >Nick Kennedy
> >Grob Twin Astir TF
> >LS-6 *XS
>
> Consider the two scenarios.
>
> 1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the release.
> You drop a wing pull off, start again.
>
> 2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on the
> release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your glider
> to bits.
>
> Which one makes you feel more of an idiot?
>
> What does it say in your flight manual bout launching?
>
> Have you actually bothered to read that bit of the manual?
>
> PF

Maybe you can't let go of the spoiler handle and release, but I can.
Do you actually tow with your hand on the release? What happens at
100 feet when you hit a good bump and accidentally release?

[Papa3]

On Apr 15, 5:33*am, Peter F > wrote:
> At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote:
>
> >I am also a big fan of launchin
> >with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years wit
> >good results.
> >Nick Kennedy
> >Grob Twin Astir TF
> >LS-6 *XS
>
> Consider the two scenarios.
>
> 1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the release.
> You drop a wing pull off, start again.
>
> 2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on the
> release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your glider
> to bits.
>
> Which one makes you feel more of an idiot?
>
> What does it say in your flight manual bout launching?
>
> Have you actually bothered to read that bit of the manual?
>
> PF

Or, you read the flight manual which says "Additional aileron
effectiveness during initial takeoff roll may be achieved by extending
airbrakes, retract airbrakes before leaving ground" [LS4 flight manual
p 4-8]. So in that case, should you feel like an idiot because you
dropped the wing for NOT following this advice?

There's no need to get snarky about this. It's a tough problem that
deserves reasoned discussion. And, unfortunately, there's probably
not one single approach that works. Different aircraft have
different traps, and the preflight routine needs to be adapted
accordingly. For example, I teach somewhat different routines with
students in the 2-33 vs. the Grob 103 based on the peculiarities of
each and the checklists we've established. Ultimately, the
preflight checklist for each aircraft needs to be followed carefull.
It's that discipline of following checklists and anticipating the 2-3
critical problems that happen early in the tow that needs to be
drilled home.

My 0.02.

P3

[bildan]

Nick makes an excellent point. Using substandard rope and weak links
invites disaster.

On the topic of spoilers open on the takeoff roll, isn't the problem
having them in the wrong configuration for a particular glider?

How about a simple mechanical spoiler locked indicator? Run a Bowden
cable from the spoiler pushrod in the fuselage to a red button on top
of the glare shield directly in the pilots line of sight. With the
spoilers closed and locked, the button would be flush with the glare
shield. Unlocked, it would protrude. As the spoilers open it would
protrude further providing a % open indication.

Yes, if pilots would just turn their head, the spoilers themselves
make a great 'indicator' but it's clear from the accident record they
don't do that.


On Apr 14, 9:59*pm, Nick Kennedy > wrote:
> >A long time ago I visited a soaring site in Israel. *The signal the
> >glider pilots used to signal readiness to the tow pilot was not waving
> >the rudder like in the USA, but opening and closing the
> >spoilers/breaks twice.
> >I was told one of the reasons for this was to make sure they were
> >closed on TO.
> >--
> >Roberto Waltman
>
> This above post by Mr Waltman makes alot of sense to me and I would like
> to see this procedure *looked at closely. I am also a big fan of launching
> with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years with
> good results. Another thing I have trained myself to do is; When the
> towplane / glider unit gets airborne and is in a steady state of climb, I
> glance out to the left wing and look at the spoilers. *It is easy to do
> and your focus distance does not change much.
>
> Another big issue for me is what really caused this accident, it sounds
> like the rope or weak link broke. *I don't think the rope should come
> apart on a guy just because he has his spoilers out and the tow is slowly
> progressing.
>
> I've taken off in Parowan in my ASW-20 full of water with the spoilers
> unlocked. *I didn't think much of it untill the tow pilot called and
> remarked about all the sink we were flying through!
> We all make mistakes.
> *If the tug cannot climb and has to turn the glider loose, so be it. *if
> the tow starts going squirrily and the tow pilot is getting scared, turn
> the glider loose. *But it should be a decision made by the pilots, not a
> P.O.S. rope break. Further more I think we need to all be using High
> Quality ropes and weak links, and give up on that polypro.
> The poly pro comes unthreaded,untied, it is EASILY damaged, it looks like
> hell after only a few tows.
> *Look on the Wings and Wheels web page and look at the rope TOST puts out
> and the Dacron Rope. *Here in Telluride we ONLY use Dacron ropes because
> they are reliable. If you have a rope break here, early on the tow, it is
> really bad news. *Heck it's bad news anywhere to have a rope break low.
> It can be FATAL . lets get rid of those poly ropes. And in the long run
> the Hi Quality ropes ARE cheaper, and when they are used up, you can use
> them for other things, not just throw them away. How green is that?
> Nick Kennedy
> Grob Twin Astir TF
> LS-6 *XS
>

[David Salmon[_2_]]

At 09:33 15 April 2011, Peter F wrote:
>At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote:
>
>>I am also a big fan of launchin
>>with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years wit
>>good results.
>
>>Nick Kennedy
>>Grob Twin Astir TF
>>LS-6 XS
>>
>
>Consider the two scenarios.
>
>1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the
release.
>You drop a wing pull off, start again.
>
>2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on the
>release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your glider
>to bits.
>
>Which one makes you feel more of an idiot?
>
>What does it say in your flight manual bout launching?
>
>Have you actually bothered to read that bit of the manual?
>
>PF
>
>
I think we should possibly make a distinction between types of launch. I
normally winch launch, done many thousands of 'em, and there is only one
place my left hand is, and that is holding the release. The accident
happens too quickly to be able to grab for it, and it has never resulted
in an inadvertant release. When the accident happens it is always a badly
damaged glider, often injuries, sometimes worse.
There may be a little more time on aerotow, but personally I still hold
the release, letting go to move flaps if fitted, when I'm happy with
lateral control.
Dave

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 4/15/2011 2:33 AM, Peter F wrote:
> At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote:
>
>> I am also a big fan of launchin
>> with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years wit
>> good results.
>
>> Nick Kennedy
>> Grob Twin Astir TF
>> LS-6 XS
>>
>
> Consider the two scenarios.
>
> 1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the release.
> You drop a wing pull off, start again.
>
> 2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on the
> release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your glider
> to bits.
>
> Which one makes you feel more of an idiot?

I think it's idiotic to be towing in an area where dropping a wing will
result in a ground loop, and that resulting groundloop will "smash your
glider to bits". But let's say you've already made those mistakes, and
consider scenario #3:

You start the launch with your hand on the open airbrakes, not on the
release. You DON'T drop a wing because the open spoilers give you much
better control, you DON'T pull off, you DON'T groundloop, and you DON'T
smash your glider to bits. In fact, the launch proceeds smoothly, no
drama, nobody in danger or inconvenienced.

I used open spoilers for the last few years I owned my ASW 20, and I
never dropped a wing once I started doing that; before then, I did drop
a wing ocasionally. I NEVER ground looped, however, because the tip skid
just slid along the pavement.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

[Andy[_1_]]

On Apr 15, 9:31*am, bildan > wrote:

>How about a simple mechanical spoiler locked indicator?

I had unlocked airbrakes suck open once at lift-off when I was new to
my ASW-19b. Not an experience I wished to repeat.

I painted red the forward part of the airbrake control rod that is
concealed in the side wall when the brakes are locked but exposed when
the brakes are closed but no locked. It made an effective warning
flag and required no modification to a certificated flight control
system.

Then I learned the advantages of using brakes during takeoff roll and
didn't need the warning any more. On my 28 I enabled the 302 airbrake
warning.

Andy

[Tony V]

On 4/15/2011 1:18 PM, David Salmon wrote:

> I think we should possibly make a distinction between types of launch. I
> normally winch launch, done many thousands of 'em, and there is only one
> place my left hand is, and that is holding the release. The accident
> happens too quickly to be able to grab for it,


I'm a winch newbie (about 35) but have about 2000 aero tows. One of our
(US) club instructors also teaches at Cambridge (UK) and what David says
is what he taught all of us. For a winch launch, the hand is ON the
release because when things go wrong, they go wrong quickly - and you
never pick up a dropping wing on the ground roll, for example - you
release. For aero tows, we keep our hand NEAR the release but not on it.

Tony V.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Apr 16, 2:03*am, Dan Marotta > wrote:
> Maybe you can't let go of the spoiler handle and release, but I can.
> Do you actually tow with your hand on the release? *What happens at
> 100 feet when you hit a good bump and accidentally release?

Er ... you land safely?

Why would the answer be any different than what happens if the rope
breaks or the towplane engine quits?

[Nick Kennedy]

At 17:31 15 April 2011, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>On 4/15/2011 2:33 AM, Peter F wrote:
>> At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote:
>>
>>> I am also a big fan of launchin
>>> with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years
wit
>>> good results.
>>
>>> Nick Kennedy
>>> Grob Twin Astir TF
>>> LS-6 XS
>>>
>>
>> Consider the two scenarios.
>>
>> 1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the
>release.
>> You drop a wing pull off, start again.
>>
>> 2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on
the
>> release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your
glider
>> to bits.
>>
>> Which one makes you feel more of an idiot?
>
>I think it's idiotic to be towing in an area where dropping a wing will

>result in a ground loop, and that resulting groundloop will "smash your

>glider to bits". But let's say you've already made those mistakes, and

>consider scenario #3:
>
>You start the launch with your hand on the open airbrakes, not on the
>release. You DON'T drop a wing because the open spoilers give you much
>better control, you DON'T pull off, you DON'T groundloop, and you
DON'T
>smash your glider to bits. In fact, the launch proceeds smoothly, no
>drama, nobody in danger or inconvenienced.
>
>I used open spoilers for the last few years I owned my ASW 20, and I
>never dropped a wing once I started doing that; before then, I did drop
>a wing ocasionally. I NEVER ground looped, however, because the tip skid

>just slid along the pavement.

Eric --Thank you for that thoughtful post!
There is alot of great info on this site, sometimes you just need a finer
mesh filter. And by the way my post was for aero towing, not winch
towing.
Nick Kennedy
>
>--
>Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
>email me)
>- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
>http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl
>- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what

>you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz
>

[RW[_2_]]

On Apr 15, 11:04*am, Papa3 > wrote:
> On Apr 15, 5:33*am, Peter F > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote:
>
> > >I am also a big fan of launchin
> > >with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years wit
> > >good results.
> > >Nick Kennedy
> > >Grob Twin Astir TF
> > >LS-6 *XS
>
> > Consider the two scenarios.
>
> > 1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the release.
> > You drop a wing pull off, start again.
>
> > 2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on the
> > release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your glider
> > to bits.
>
> > Which one makes you feel more of an idiot?
>
> > What does it say in your flight manual bout launching?
>
> > Have you actually bothered to read that bit of the manual?
>
> > PF
>
> Or, you read the flight manual which says "Additional aileron
> effectiveness during initial takeoff roll may be achieved by extending
> airbrakes, retract airbrakes before leaving ground" [LS4 flight manual
> p 4-8]. * *So in that case, *should you feel like an idiot because you
> dropped the wing for NOT following this advice?
>
> There's no need to get snarky about this. It's a tough problem that
> deserves reasoned discussion. * And, unfortunately, there's probably
> not one single approach that works. * Different aircraft have
> different traps, and the preflight routine needs to be adapted
> accordingly. *For example, I teach somewhat different routines with
> students in the 2-33 vs. the Grob 103 based on the peculiarities of
> each and the checklists we've established. * * Ultimately, the
> preflight checklist for each aircraft needs to be followed carefull.
> It's that discipline of following checklists and anticipating the 2-3
> critical problems that happen early in the tow that needs to be
> drilled home.
>
> My 0.02.
>
> P3

Day is coming,when BRSA will notice that: observers (ground crew) who
watched this Blanik in trouble with open spoilers, all they needed to
save his life was hand held radio.
Still too expensive toy,almost like parachutes in club ships.
RW

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Fri, 15 Apr 2011 07:03:46 -0700, Dan Marotta wrote:

> Do you actually tow with your hand on the release?
>
Yes - for both aero-tow and winch and for the same reasons in both
cases: if the tip hits the ground, RELEASE. Good practise on any grass
field and standard doctrine on my club's field.

> What happens at 100 feet when you hit a good bump and
> accidentally release?
>
Hand ON the release doesn't mean "Fingers wrapped round the knob and
release cable pre-tensioned". If your fingers are straight and resting
against the knob a bump can't cause an accidental release, but curling
fingers round the knob and pulling is still instant.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Mike the Strike]

On Apr 15, 9:04*pm, RW > wrote:
> On Apr 15, 11:04*am, Papa3 > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 15, 5:33*am, Peter F > wrote:
>
> > > At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote:
>
> > > >I am also a big fan of launchin
> > > >with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years wit
> > > >good results.
> > > >Nick Kennedy
> > > >Grob Twin Astir TF
> > > >LS-6 *XS
>
> > > Consider the two scenarios.
>
> > > 1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the release.
> > > You drop a wing pull off, start again.
>
> > > 2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on the
> > > release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your glider
> > > to bits.
>
> > > Which one makes you feel more of an idiot?
>
> > > What does it say in your flight manual bout launching?
>
> > > Have you actually bothered to read that bit of the manual?
>
> > > PF
>
> > Or, you read the flight manual which says "Additional aileron
> > effectiveness during initial takeoff roll may be achieved by extending
> > airbrakes, retract airbrakes before leaving ground" [LS4 flight manual
> > p 4-8]. * *So in that case, *should you feel like an idiot because you
> > dropped the wing for NOT following this advice?
>
> > There's no need to get snarky about this. It's a tough problem that
> > deserves reasoned discussion. * And, unfortunately, there's probably
> > not one single approach that works. * Different aircraft have
> > different traps, and the preflight routine needs to be adapted
> > accordingly. *For example, I teach somewhat different routines with
> > students in the 2-33 vs. the Grob 103 based on the peculiarities of
> > each and the checklists we've established. * * Ultimately, the
> > preflight checklist for each aircraft needs to be followed carefull.
> > It's that discipline of following checklists and anticipating the 2-3
> > critical problems that happen early in the tow that needs to be
> > drilled home.
>
> > My 0.02.
>
> > P3
>
> Day is coming,when BRSA will notice that: *observers (ground crew) who
> watched this Blanik in trouble with open spoilers, all they needed to
> save his life was hand held radio.
> Still too expensive toy,almost like parachutes in club ships.
> RW

The radio might not help you. A group of us at a local contest
watched as the airbrakes opened on a ship as it became airborne and
stayed that way for about a minute or more. The tuggie was struggling
to climb and came perilously close to hitting some large cactus. I
was the first to call on the radio, followed by a chorus of others.
All our calls went unanswered and produced no effect on the glider.
After the flight, I asked the pilot why he didn't respond to our
calls. The answer "I turn the radio down during launch to avoid
distraction".

I always keep my radio on the airport frequency until climbing out.
Perhaps the culprit of whom I speak would like to defend his position
- he knows who he is!

Mike

Mike

[Dan Marotta]

On Apr 16, 10:23*am, Mike the Strike > wrote:
> On Apr 15, 9:04*pm, RW > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 15, 11:04*am, Papa3 > wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 15, 5:33*am, Peter F > wrote:
>
> > > > At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote:
>
> > > > >I am also a big fan of launchin
> > > > >with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years wit
> > > > >good results.
> > > > >Nick Kennedy
> > > > >Grob Twin Astir TF
> > > > >LS-6 *XS
>
> > > > Consider the two scenarios.
>
> > > > 1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the release.
> > > > You drop a wing pull off, start again.
>
> > > > 2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on the
> > > > release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your glider
> > > > to bits.
>
> > > > Which one makes you feel more of an idiot?
>
> > > > What does it say in your flight manual bout launching?
>
> > > > Have you actually bothered to read that bit of the manual?
>
> > > > PF
>
> > > Or, you read the flight manual which says "Additional aileron
> > > effectiveness during initial takeoff roll may be achieved by extending
> > > airbrakes, retract airbrakes before leaving ground" [LS4 flight manual
> > > p 4-8]. * *So in that case, *should you feel like an idiot because you
> > > dropped the wing for NOT following this advice?
>
> > > There's no need to get snarky about this. It's a tough problem that
> > > deserves reasoned discussion. * And, unfortunately, there's probably
> > > not one single approach that works. * Different aircraft have
> > > different traps, and the preflight routine needs to be adapted
> > > accordingly. *For example, I teach somewhat different routines with
> > > students in the 2-33 vs. the Grob 103 based on the peculiarities of
> > > each and the checklists we've established. * * Ultimately, the
> > > preflight checklist for each aircraft needs to be followed carefull.
> > > It's that discipline of following checklists and anticipating the 2-3
> > > critical problems that happen early in the tow that needs to be
> > > drilled home.
>
> > > My 0.02.
>
> > > P3
>
> > Day is coming,when BRSA will notice that: *observers (ground crew) who
> > watched this Blanik in trouble with open spoilers, all they needed to
> > save his life was hand held radio.
> > Still too expensive toy,almost like parachutes in club ships.
> > RW
>
> The radio might not help you. *A group of us at a local contest
> watched as the airbrakes opened on a ship as it became airborne and
> stayed that way for about a minute or more. *The tuggie was struggling
> to climb and came perilously close to hitting some large cactus. *I
> was the first to call on the radio, followed by a chorus of others.
> All our calls went unanswered and produced no effect on the glider.
> After the flight, I asked the pilot why he didn't respond to our
> calls. *The answer "I turn the radio down during launch to avoid
> distraction".
>
> I always keep my radio on the airport frequency until climbing out.
> Perhaps the culprit of whom I speak would like to defend his position
> - he knows who he is!
>
> Mike
>
> Mike

> Maybe you can't let go of the spoiler handle and release, but I can.
> Do you actually tow with your hand on the release? What happens at
> 100 feet when you hit a good bump and accidentally release?

Er ... you land safely?

It's great for you that you fly at a field where a release at 100 feet
is a non-event. Some of the places I've flown would not be so kind.
Where I currently fly, a release at 100 feet would mean landing
straight ahead on pavement - truly a non-event, however, this is not
so everywhere we fly.

It's clear to me (and always has been) that each and every one of us
knows what's best for the rest of us. ;-P

[Tom Stock]

> Er ... you land safely?
>
> It's great for you that you fly at a field where a release at 100 feet
> is a non-event. Some of the places I've flown would not be so kind.
> Where I currently fly, a release at 100 feet would mean landing
> straight ahead on pavement - truly a non-event, however, this is not
> so everywhere we fly.
>
> It's clear to me (and always has been) that each and every one of us
> knows what's best for the rest of us. ;-P

I agree, at my local field a release at under 100 feet will put you into
the trees or power lines unless you want to try for the narrow road which
may or may not work out for you...

We dont all fly in over wide open fields or desert.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Apr 16, 2:56*pm, Tom Stock > wrote:
> > Er ... you land safely?
>
> > It's great for you that you fly at a field where a release at 100 feet
> > is a non-event. *Some of the places I've flown would not be so kind.
> > Where I currently fly, a release at 100 feet would mean landing
> > straight ahead on pavement - truly a non-event, however, this is not
> > so everywhere we fly.
>
> > It's clear to me (and always has been) that each and every one of us
> > knows what's best for the rest of us. *;-P
>
> I agree, at my local field a release at under 100 feet will put you into
> the trees or power lines unless you want to try for the narrow road which
> may or may not work out for you...
>
> We dont all fly in over wide open fields or desert.

Off field in desert is some of the worst, close in or far away. The
region 12 safety seminar is an eye opener. You have to know where the
safe landing spots are before you go.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Apr 17, 5:07*am, Dan Marotta > wrote:
> On Apr 16, 10:23*am, Mike the Strike > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 15, 9:04*pm, RW > wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 15, 11:04*am, Papa3 > wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 15, 5:33*am, Peter F > wrote:
>
> > > > > At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote:
>
> > > > > >I am also a big fan of launchin
> > > > > >with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years wit
> > > > > >good results.
> > > > > >Nick Kennedy
> > > > > >Grob Twin Astir TF
> > > > > >LS-6 *XS
>
> > > > > Consider the two scenarios.
>
> > > > > 1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the release.
> > > > > You drop a wing pull off, start again.
>
> > > > > 2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on the
> > > > > release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your glider
> > > > > to bits.
>
> > > > > Which one makes you feel more of an idiot?
>
> > > > > What does it say in your flight manual bout launching?
>
> > > > > Have you actually bothered to read that bit of the manual?
>
> > > > > PF
>
> > > > Or, you read the flight manual which says "Additional aileron
> > > > effectiveness during initial takeoff roll may be achieved by extending
> > > > airbrakes, retract airbrakes before leaving ground" [LS4 flight manual
> > > > p 4-8]. * *So in that case, *should you feel like an idiot because you
> > > > dropped the wing for NOT following this advice?
>
> > > > There's no need to get snarky about this. It's a tough problem that
> > > > deserves reasoned discussion. * And, unfortunately, there's probably
> > > > not one single approach that works. * Different aircraft have
> > > > different traps, and the preflight routine needs to be adapted
> > > > accordingly. *For example, I teach somewhat different routines with
> > > > students in the 2-33 vs. the Grob 103 based on the peculiarities of
> > > > each and the checklists we've established. * * Ultimately, the
> > > > preflight checklist for each aircraft needs to be followed carefull..
> > > > It's that discipline of following checklists and anticipating the 2-3
> > > > critical problems that happen early in the tow that needs to be
> > > > drilled home.
>
> > > > My 0.02.
>
> > > > P3
>
> > > Day is coming,when BRSA will notice that: *observers (ground crew) who
> > > watched this Blanik in trouble with open spoilers, all they needed to
> > > save his life was hand held radio.
> > > Still too expensive toy,almost like parachutes in club ships.
> > > RW
>
> > The radio might not help you. *A group of us at a local contest
> > watched as the airbrakes opened on a ship as it became airborne and
> > stayed that way for about a minute or more. *The tuggie was struggling
> > to climb and came perilously close to hitting some large cactus. *I
> > was the first to call on the radio, followed by a chorus of others.
> > All our calls went unanswered and produced no effect on the glider.
> > After the flight, I asked the pilot why he didn't respond to our
> > calls. *The answer "I turn the radio down during launch to avoid
> > distraction".
>
> > I always keep my radio on the airport frequency until climbing out.
> > Perhaps the culprit of whom I speak would like to defend his position
> > - he knows who he is!
>
> > Mike
>
> > Mike
> > Maybe you can't let go of the spoiler handle and release, but I can.
> > Do you actually tow with your hand on the release? *What happens at
> > 100 feet when you hit a good bump and accidentally release?
>
> Er ... you land safely?
>
> It's great for you that you fly at a field where a release at 100 feet
> is a non-event. *Some of the places I've flown would not be so kind.
> Where I currently fly, a release at 100 feet would mean landing
> straight ahead on pavement - truly a non-event, however, this is not
> so everywhere we fly.

If you are flying regularly at a place where you have dead zones in
your takeoff profile then I'd say you are an accident waiting to
happen.

We used to have a lot of open space around our airfield. Now it is
full of houses. That was ok in itself while we were flying lightweight
Blaniks, but then in the mid 90's we started to get heavy glass two
seaters -- first a Janus and then two Grobs. We started having some
launches (on hot and still days) only a few feet over the fence.

We traded our Super Cubs in and got Pawnees. Now we always have a safe
height over the fence.

Don't fly at places where your life depends on that rope not breaking.
Seriously.

[bildan]

On Apr 17, 4:34*am, Bruce Hoult > wrote:
> On Apr 17, 5:07*am, Dan Marotta > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 16, 10:23*am, Mike the Strike > wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 15, 9:04*pm, RW > wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 15, 11:04*am, Papa3 > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Apr 15, 5:33*am, Peter F > wrote:
>
> > > > > > At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote:
>
> > > > > > >I am also a big fan of launchin
> > > > > > >with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years wit
> > > > > > >good results.
> > > > > > >Nick Kennedy
> > > > > > >Grob Twin Astir TF
> > > > > > >LS-6 *XS
>
> > > > > > Consider the two scenarios.
>
> > > > > > 1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the release.
> > > > > > You drop a wing pull off, start again.
>
> > > > > > 2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on the
> > > > > > release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your glider
> > > > > > to bits.
>
> > > > > > Which one makes you feel more of an idiot?
>
> > > > > > What does it say in your flight manual bout launching?
>
> > > > > > Have you actually bothered to read that bit of the manual?
>
> > > > > > PF
>
> > > > > Or, you read the flight manual which says "Additional aileron
> > > > > effectiveness during initial takeoff roll may be achieved by extending
> > > > > airbrakes, retract airbrakes before leaving ground" [LS4 flight manual
> > > > > p 4-8]. * *So in that case, *should you feel like an idiot because you
> > > > > dropped the wing for NOT following this advice?
>
> > > > > There's no need to get snarky about this. It's a tough problem that
> > > > > deserves reasoned discussion. * And, unfortunately, there's probably
> > > > > not one single approach that works. * Different aircraft have
> > > > > different traps, and the preflight routine needs to be adapted
> > > > > accordingly. *For example, I teach somewhat different routines with
> > > > > students in the 2-33 vs. the Grob 103 based on the peculiarities of
> > > > > each and the checklists we've established. * * Ultimately, the
> > > > > preflight checklist for each aircraft needs to be followed carefull.
> > > > > It's that discipline of following checklists and anticipating the 2-3
> > > > > critical problems that happen early in the tow that needs to be
> > > > > drilled home.
>
> > > > > My 0.02.
>
> > > > > P3
>
> > > > Day is coming,when BRSA will notice that: *observers (ground crew) who
> > > > watched this Blanik in trouble with open spoilers, all they needed to
> > > > save his life was hand held radio.
> > > > Still too expensive toy,almost like parachutes in club ships.
> > > > RW
>
> > > The radio might not help you. *A group of us at a local contest
> > > watched as the airbrakes opened on a ship as it became airborne and
> > > stayed that way for about a minute or more. *The tuggie was struggling
> > > to climb and came perilously close to hitting some large cactus. *I
> > > was the first to call on the radio, followed by a chorus of others.
> > > All our calls went unanswered and produced no effect on the glider.
> > > After the flight, I asked the pilot why he didn't respond to our
> > > calls. *The answer "I turn the radio down during launch to avoid
> > > distraction".
>
> > > I always keep my radio on the airport frequency until climbing out.
> > > Perhaps the culprit of whom I speak would like to defend his position
> > > - he knows who he is!
>
> > > Mike
>
> > > Mike
> > > Maybe you can't let go of the spoiler handle and release, but I can.
> > > Do you actually tow with your hand on the release? *What happens at
> > > 100 feet when you hit a good bump and accidentally release?
>
> > Er ... you land safely?
>
> > It's great for you that you fly at a field where a release at 100 feet
> > is a non-event. *Some of the places I've flown would not be so kind.
> > Where I currently fly, a release at 100 feet would mean landing
> > straight ahead on pavement - truly a non-event, however, this is not
> > so everywhere we fly.
>
> If you are flying regularly at a place where you have dead zones in
> your takeoff profile then I'd say you are an accident waiting to
> happen.
>
> We used to have a lot of open space around our airfield. Now it is
> full of houses. That was ok in itself while we were flying lightweight
> Blaniks, but then in the mid 90's we started to get heavy glass two
> seaters -- first a Janus and then two Grobs. We started having some
> launches (on hot and still days) only a few feet over the fence.
>
> We traded our Super Cubs in and got Pawnees. Now we always have a safe
> height over the fence.
>
> Don't fly at places where your life depends on that rope not breaking.
> Seriously.

Unfortunately, there are many places where events combine to create
"dead zones". An extra heavy glider, high and hot conditions, plus an
anemic tug can do it. The first to notice will be instructors wanting
to do a 200' rope break maneuver with a student when they realize they
are too far from the runway to pull the release safely.

With rampant development, landing areas around airports are fast
disappearing.

This means we have to look carefully at our tow gear.

If you look at FAR 91.9 you'll find it requires you to operate your
glider in compliance with the POH/AFM. Looking in the manual, (unless
it's a Schweizer) you will find it demands a specific aero tow weak
link. For example, the ASK-21 requires exactly 600 daN link or a Tost
blue link for aero tow. If you use a very strong rope, a 750 daN Tost
red link will be required at the tug.

Using really strong ropes with exactly the right (legal) weak links
will help avoid unnecessary PTT failures. Or, you could consider a
winch where you are always in gliding distance of the runway.

Bill D