Glider Recommendations

[Justrolln]

I’m new to the sport and am thinking about getting my first glider
this summer. I was hoping that you guys would all put your 2 cents in
and help me sort through all the wonderful why A is better than B…
Some things I’m concerned about are

I’m 6’2” and mostly torso. When I sit in a DG 1000 I take up a LOT of
the cockpit. It’s not uncomfortable, but I don’t think I would go any
smaller…

I’m paralyzed from about the waist down – so I will be using a hand
controlled rudder (even more reason to have a good sized cockpit) –
Also, pushing myself around all day in my wheelchair has made my
shoulders a bit wide… And, because I sit on my butt all day long, it
would be nice if I could fit a 1-2” pad under my butt while flying –
to prevent pressure sores on those long flights.

Ease of assembly: since I can’t do it myself – I’m sure to be asking
others for help – and I’m sure people won’t hate me as much if my
glider is not a pain to put together…

Motor: If I land out, it might be a really bad day for me. Sitting
in the glider waiting until crew arrives could be a big bummer… not a
total necessity, but a good thing to keep in mind.

Flaps: I think I’d rather not have them… I’m not sure how often you
adjust them in flight, but I’ll have right hand stick, left hand
stick, trim, spoilers, radio to worry about operating with my hands
already. I figure one less thing would be ok… But, if they really
help out maybe I should get them – I’m not too sure on this one

Type of flying: I made it out to avenal for a day last week and had a
blast, while I will do a fair amount of hanging around my local
airport (crystal) my main goal will be cross country and racing.

$: this is most likely the most important thing… I would like to
keep it around the $50,000 or so mark. I would pay more if there is
an engine in there (I’ve seen some DG 400s in the 60s…) and if I can
spend $30,000 and get 95% of a $50,000 ship, i'd rather do that

Any input would be great, or if you have questions that I haven’t
thought of that would be great too.

Ships I’ve considered
ASW 20
ASW 24 (how do these handle – fast thermaling speed?)
Genesis 2 (big cockpit – but how does it fly)
Discus (with large fuselage)
Ventus
DG 303 elan
LS-3
PIK 20E
DG 400
Ventus CM

Thanks again for any help -

[jsbrake[_2_]]

I'm the (newly assigned) chapter manager for one of the Freedom's
Wings Canada chapters (providing inspiration flights and flight
training for the physically challenged)... we're looking at $8,000 per
ship to modify our remaining Grob 103's to have hand controls. My
soaring club just got an ASK-21 with factory-installed hand controls,
that was a pretty penny on top of the cost, too.

Your posting raised some concerns for me:
- you say "new to the sport", but not how much experience you have,
nor the ships you've flown (other then DG-1000). Are you prepared to
handle any of the ships you mentioned?
- most of the ships you listed are flapped, which you wanted to rule
out
- motor gliders are more workload and extra training is required (and
maintenance)

Flaps aren't good or bad, they're "different". There are advantages
and disadvantages, and pilots far more experienced than I could extol
the virtues of having either. I fly both (my own ship is flapped),
and it's certainly simpler without. You'll want to follow the KISS
principle, I should think.

You might wish to contact Freedom's Wings Florida, based at Tampa Bay
Soaring Society for recommendations and information on modifying US
gliders.

Good luck in the search!
-John

[JJ Sinclair[_2_]]

The hand controls I have seen have been on ships that drive the rudder
with a push rod, like the G-103. The hand control is mounted on the
left side and is connected to the rudder push-rod, behind the rear
seat. How does one hook a hand control to a ship that uses cables to
drive its rudder? Most rudder pedals only move the rudder on one side
and use a spring to keep tension when the other pedal is moved.
JJ

[glider12321]

On May 20, 7:00*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> The hand controls I have seen have been on ships that drive the rudder
> with a push rod, like the G-103. The hand control is mounted on the
> left side and is connected to the rudder push-rod, behind the rear
> seat. How does one hook a hand control to a ship that uses cables to
> drive its rudder? *Most rudder pedals only move the rudder on one side
> and use a spring to keep tension when the other pedal is moved.
> JJ

I have also seen a G102 set up with hand controls. The spoiler handle
was un sprung and had a detent so it could be set for landing and
rudder controlled with the left hand.

[[email protected]]

On May 20, 5:21*pm, glider12321 > wrote:
> On May 20, 7:00*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
>
> > The hand controls I have seen have been on ships that drive the rudder
> > with a push rod, like the G-103. The hand control is mounted on the
> > left side and is connected to the rudder push-rod, behind the rear
> > seat. How does one hook a hand control to a ship that uses cables to
> > drive its rudder? *Most rudder pedals only move the rudder on one side
> > and use a spring to keep tension when the other pedal is moved.
> > JJ
>
> I have also seen a G102 set up with hand controls. The spoiler handle
> was un sprung and had a detent so it could be set for landing and
> rudder controlled with the left hand.

I am a volunteer instructor for Freedoms Wings International..we fly
out of several NE airports.

We have two Grob 103's with hand control rudder and spoiler with
detents...

Yes, the Grob has a "pushrod" rudder which allows a simple hand
control , connected to the rear left rudder pedal to control either
left or right rudder......hand control can be fitted to front or rear
seat as well......other gliders with cable controlled rudder will be
more difficult to fit a hand control rudder.

As far as I know, the Grob 103 and the ASK 21 are "factory approved"
for manual control.....

I am not usre if any single seat gliders come with factory approved
manual control..if not, considerable FAA paperwork may be required....

I would suggest that you consider the Gorb 103......a two seater has
some obvious advantages, and can alway be flown solo if desired...also
should fall well short of your price range....
even with manual control modifications...

You can do a web search for freedomw wings international and get some
contacts for further information


Bob Cook

[Reed von Gal]

On May 20, 11:26*pm, "
> wrote:
> On May 20, 5:21*pm, glider12321 > wrote:
>
> > On May 20, 7:00*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
>
> > > The hand controls I have seen have been on ships that drive the rudder
> > > with a push rod, like the G-103. The hand control is mounted on the
> > > left side and is connected to the rudder push-rod, behind the rear
> > > seat. How does one hook a hand control to a ship that uses cables to
> > > drive its rudder? *Most rudder pedals only move the rudder on one side
> > > and use a spring to keep tension when the other pedal is moved.
> > > JJ
>
> > I have also seen a G102 set up with hand controls. The spoiler handle
> > was un sprung and had a detent so it could be set for landing and
> > rudder controlled with the left hand.
>
> I am a volunteer instructor for Freedoms Wings International..we fly
> out of several NE airports.
>
> We have two Grob 103's with hand *control rudder and spoiler with
> detents...
>
> Yes, the Grob has a "pushrod" rudder which allows a simple hand
> control , connected to the rear left rudder pedal to control either
> left or right rudder......hand control can be fitted to front or rear
> seat as well......other gliders with cable controlled rudder will be
> more difficult to fit a hand control rudder.
>
> As far as I know, the Grob 103 and the ASK 21 are "factory approved"
> for manual control.....
>
> I am not usre if any single seat gliders come with factory approved
> manual control..if not, considerable FAA paperwork may be required....
>
> I would suggest that you consider the Gorb 103......a two seater has
> some obvious advantages, and can alway be flown solo if desired...also
> should fall well short of your price range....
> even with manual control modifications...
>
> You can do a web search for freedomw wings international and get *some
> contacts for further information
>
> Bob Cook

There is a Grob 103 at Mile High Gliding in Boulder with the hand
controls. It isn't currently set up but can be with no problem I hear.
They also have a 102 in a trailer with hand controls I believe.

Reed

[Justrolln]

Thanks for the posts-

I'd rather not buy a grob - as that is ship I'm training in... and I
think I can do a bit better than the grobs performance - especially if
I get a single place glider. (if i need a 2 place, I can rent one
from my field.)

I know that dealing with the FAA and getting hand controls installed
might (will) be a pain - however, I don't think I should settle for a
lesser glider because of my disability. If things get out of hand,
I'm sure a letter from a good lawyer talking about discrimination and
the ADA will help things along... Nevertheless, an 'experimental'
glider wouldn't be a bad thing in my situation...

For this discussion, let's assume that getting hand controls installed
isn't going to be a problem. What I'm mainly interested in is, if you
had about $50,000 to spend on a glider (and were a decent sized-large
guy interested in contests and cross country), what would it be, and
why.
I'm particularly interested in any non-flap gliders that I haven't
mentioned (the more I fly, I don't think flaps would be a big issue
but it'd be nice to know the options out there.)

Thanks again

[Greg Arnold[_2_]]

On 5/22/2011 10:19 PM, Justrolln wrote:
> Thanks for the posts-
>
> I'd rather not buy a grob - as that is ship I'm training in... and I
> think I can do a bit better than the grobs performance - especially if
> I get a single place glider. (if i need a 2 place, I can rent one
> from my field.)
>
> I know that dealing with the FAA and getting hand controls installed
> might (will) be a pain - however, I don't think I should settle for a
> lesser glider because of my disability. If things get out of hand,
> I'm sure a letter from a good lawyer talking about discrimination and
> the ADA will help things along... Nevertheless, an 'experimental'
> glider wouldn't be a bad thing in my situation...
>
> For this discussion, let's assume that getting hand controls installed
> isn't going to be a problem. What I'm mainly interested in is, if you
> had about $50,000 to spend on a glider (and were a decent sized-large
> guy interested in contests and cross country), what would it be, and
> why.


Discus? Big cockpit, easy to fly, and for most of us as competitive as
the latest gliders. For $50,000 you should be able to get one in
excellent shape with a Cobra trailer.


> I'm particularly interested in any non-flap gliders that I haven't
> mentioned (the more I fly, I don't think flaps would be a big issue
> but it'd be nice to know the options out there.)
>
> Thanks again

[glider12321]

On May 22, 11:46*pm, Greg Arnold > wrote:
> On 5/22/2011 10:19 PM, Justrolln wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Thanks for the posts-
>
> > I'd rather not buy a grob - as that is ship I'm training in... and I
> > think I can do a bit better than the grobs performance - especially if
> > I get a single place glider. *(if i need a 2 place, I can rent one
> > from my field.)
>
> > I know that dealing with the FAA and getting hand controls installed
> > might (will) be a pain - however, I don't think I should settle for a
> > lesser glider because of my disability. *If things get out of hand,
> > I'm sure a letter from a good lawyer talking about discrimination and
> > the ADA will help things along... *Nevertheless, an 'experimental'
> > glider wouldn't be a bad thing in my situation...
>
> > For this discussion, let's assume that getting hand controls installed
> > isn't going to be a problem. What I'm mainly interested in is, if you
> > had about $50,000 to spend on a glider (and were a decent sized-large
> > guy interested in contests and cross country), what would it be, and
> > why.
>
> Discus? *Big cockpit, easy to fly, and for most of us as competitive as
> the latest gliders. *For $50,000 you should be able to get one in
> excellent shape with a Cobra trailer.
>
>
>
> > I'm particularly interested in any non-flap gliders that I haven't
> > mentioned (the more I fly, I don't think flaps would be a big issue
> > but it'd be nice to know the options out there.)
>
> > Thanks again- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Genesis 2.. Also very easy to fly, even more forgiving for lower time
pilots, no bad habits.. Larger cockpit... more elbow room for
controls. 40+:1 glide, excellent at high speeds. Nose dragger… no need
to transition to a tail dragger. I rented one a few times and was
amazed by what a nice glider this is.

[BobW]

On 5/22/2011 11:19 PM, Justrolln wrote:
> Thanks for the posts-
>
> I'd rather not buy a grob - as that is ship I'm training in... and I
> think I can do a bit better than the grobs performance - especially if
> I get a single place glider. (if i need a 2 place, I can rent one
> from my field.)
>
> I know that dealing with the FAA and getting hand controls installed
> might (will) be a pain - however, I don't think I should settle for a
> lesser glider because of my disability. If things get out of hand,
> I'm sure a letter from a good lawyer talking about discrimination and
> the ADA will help things along... Nevertheless, an 'experimental'
> glider wouldn't be a bad thing in my situation...
>
> For this discussion, let's assume that getting hand controls installed
> isn't going to be a problem. What I'm mainly interested in is, if you
> had about $50,000 to spend on a glider (and were a decent sized-large
> guy interested in contests and cross country), what would it be, and
> why.
> I'm particularly interested in any non-flap gliders that I haven't
> mentioned (the more I fly, I don't think flaps would be a big issue
> but it'd be nice to know the options out there.)
>
> Thanks again

The following is old information, but possibly of 'encouragement use' in any
event.

Some time ago (~15 years?) I encountered a hand-control-equipped AS W-24 flown
by a paraplegic male, then based out of Jackson Hole, WY. Unfortunately I
don't remember his name, nor the ship's registration category (e.g.
'Experimental'). It did not have a sustainer; he did fly it XC (though he
sought to land only on airports to minimize heat-related retrieve issues); he
depended upon a cell phone for retrieve calls.

Best of luck!

Bob W.

[bravovictor]

On May 23, 9:57*am, BobW > wrote:
> On 5/22/2011 11:19 PM, Justrolln wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Thanks for the posts-
>
> > I'd rather not buy a grob - as that is ship I'm training in... and I
> > think I can do a bit better than the grobs performance - especially if
> > I get a single place glider. *(if i need a 2 place, I can rent one
> > from my field.)
>
> > I know that dealing with the FAA and getting hand controls installed
> > might (will) be a pain - however, I don't think I should settle for a
> > lesser glider because of my disability. *If things get out of hand,
> > I'm sure a letter from a good lawyer talking about discrimination and
> > the ADA will help things along... *Nevertheless, an 'experimental'
> > glider wouldn't be a bad thing in my situation...
>
> > For this discussion, let's assume that getting hand controls installed
> > isn't going to be a problem. What I'm mainly interested in is, if you
> > had about $50,000 to spend on a glider (and were a decent sized-large
> > guy interested in contests and cross country), what would it be, and
> > why.
> > I'm particularly interested in any non-flap gliders that I haven't
> > mentioned (the more I fly, I don't think flaps would be a big issue
> > but it'd be nice to know the options out there.)
>
> > Thanks again
>
> The following is old information, but possibly of 'encouragement use' in any
> event.
>
> Some time ago (~15 years?) I encountered a hand-control-equipped AS W-24 flown
> by a paraplegic male, then based out of Jackson Hole, WY. Unfortunately I
> don't remember his name, nor the ship's registration category (e.g.
> 'Experimental'). It did not have a sustainer; he did fly it XC (though he
> sought to land only on airports to minimize heat-related retrieve issues); he
> depended upon a cell phone for retrieve calls.
>
> Best of luck!
>
> Bob W.

I have a phone # that I assume is still good for this person. Email
me off list to rbackermaiatyahoo .

Bob

[Justrolln]

Thanks again for all the info -

I would be interested in talking to the guy who hand controlled the
asw-24.

Also, I think when I do head out - I'll always have a SPOT on me (and
a cell phone) I'll most likely be flying with a wing-man or two for a
while before I head out on my own.

The Genesis is climbing on my list for sure - it seems to be liked
amongst the people who've flown it, and I kind of like that it's goofy
looking. Does anyone know what kind of maneuvers it can do (not that
aerobatic is my main reason to fly, but I think it's a fun way to lose
some altitude at the end of a flight...)

[Nyal Williams[_2_]]

Where can you rent a Genesis???

At 16:26 23 May 2011, glider12321 wrote:
>On May 22, 11:46=A0pm, Greg Arnold wrote:
>> On 5/22/2011 10:19 PM, Justrolln wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Thanks for the posts-
>>
>> > I'd rather not buy a grob - as that is ship I'm training in... and
I
>> > think I can do a bit better than the grobs performance - especially
if
>> > I get a single place glider. =A0(if i need a 2 place, I can rent one
>> > from my field.)
>>
>> > I know that dealing with the FAA and getting hand controls installed
>> > might (will) be a pain - however, I don't think I should settle for
a
>> > lesser glider because of my disability. =A0If things get out of
hand,
>> > I'm sure a letter from a good lawyer talking about discrimination
and
>> > the ADA will help things along... =A0Nevertheless, an
'experimental'
>> > glider wouldn't be a bad thing in my situation...
>>
>> > For this discussion, let's assume that getting hand controls
installed
>> > isn't going to be a problem. What I'm mainly interested in is, if
you
>> > had about $50,000 to spend on a glider (and were a decent
sized-large
>> > guy interested in contests and cross country), what would it be, and
>> > why.
>>
>> Discus? =A0Big cockpit, easy to fly, and for most of us as competitive
>as
>> the latest gliders. =A0For $50,000 you should be able to get one in
>> excellent shape with a Cobra trailer.
>>
>>
>>
>> > I'm particularly interested in any non-flap gliders that I haven't
>> > mentioned (the more I fly, I don't think flaps would be a big issue
>> > but it'd be nice to know the options out there.)
>>
>> > Thanks again- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>Genesis 2.. Also very easy to fly, even more forgiving for lower time
>pilots, no bad habits.. Larger cockpit... more elbow room for
>controls. 40+:1 glide, excellent at high speeds. Nose dragger=85 no need
>to transition to a tail dragger. I rented one a few times and was
>amazed by what a nice glider this is.
>

[Tony V]

On 5/23/2011 1:19 AM, Justrolln wrote:
> Thanks for the posts-
>
> I'd rather not buy a grob - as that is ship I'm training in... and I
> think I can do a bit better than the grobs performance - especially if
> I get a single place glider. (if i need a 2 place, I can rent one
> from my field.)

Errrr.... there are single seat Grobs with better performance.

Tony

[glider12321]

On May 23, 5:02*pm, Tony V > wrote:
> On 5/23/2011 1:19 AM, Justrolln wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the posts-
>
> > I'd rather not buy a grob - as that is ship I'm training in... and I
> > think I can do a bit better than the grobs performance - especially if
> > I get a single place glider. *(if i need a 2 place, I can rent one
> > from my field.)
>
> Errrr.... there are single seat Grobs with better performance.
>
> Tony

I rented the Genesis at two glider ports. First at Mile High Gliding
in Boulder a couple of times 4 or 5 years ago. I don't think they
have it any more. The second was on a cople of trips to Phoenix to
warm up in the winter. I went to Estrella Glider port and rented their
Genesis on two occasions. I'm sure they still have that one.
I only have about 10 or 12 hours in them so I don't know about
aerobatics but they do have powerful spoilers and don't like to spin
(doesn't even drop a wing on a stall er.. mush) so just pull the
boards to descend

[Wayne Paul]

Nyal,

Grand Teton Soaring Cub in Driggs, ID has one.
http://www.tetonsoaring.org/
http://www.tetonsoaring.org/gtsc_handbook.pdf

Wayne
HP-14 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/

"Nyal Williams" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Where can you rent a Genesis???
>

[Steve Derwin]

Hi Greg,

A friend of mine sent me your post on US RAS and I thought I would
respond. I live in England and I am a T4 complete lesion para and I fly an
LS7. I trained on a K21 and when I wanted to progress to a single seater I
looked for something that was going to be racy but straight forward to
convert. Another friend of mine who is an engineer designed the hand
controls and we got them approved through the technical committee of the
BGA before we got swallowed up by the bureaucrats at EASA. Now the
Britain's Civil Aviation Authority has been subsumed by European bull****
it's more difficult and lots more costly to breath let alone convert
gliders. In America I believe you have more scope under the Experimental
Aircraft Association so that might be the way to go.

Anyway if you are interested in more info, pictures or design drawings for
the LS7 get in touch.

Incidentally, do you know of Freedom Wings? I flew at Zephyr Hills in
their Twin Acro=A0Grob 109 a few weeks ago when I was over in Florida on
vacation. They are worth contacting if you haven't already.

Good luck with your project.

Steve Derwin

[Justrolln]

On May 23, 3:06*pm, Nyal Williams > wrote:
> Where can *you rent a Genesis???

Yeah, I thought it was funny that you can rent a Genesis - as it's
experimental... I think az soaring even advertises it in
'soaring'...

[ray conlon]

On May 25, 2:38*am, Justrolln > wrote:
> On May 23, 3:06*pm, Nyal Williams > wrote:
>
> > Where can *you rent a Genesis???
>
> Yeah, I thought it was funny that you can rent a Genesis - as it's
> experimental... *I think az soaring even advertises it in
> 'soaring'...

Our club had a IS28B2 2 place Lark we built and STC'd (FAA APPROVED)
a hand control for, worked great....send me an email address and I can
hook you up with the club member who flew it and has the
paperwork...