Launch Order

[Walt Connelly]

Just curious as to how it's done elsewhere. I fly at a commercial operation and the priority for launch always goes to the school gliders....this makes sense...the student has scheduled for a specific time days in advance.... Next come the renal ships and glider rides and they too have been scheduled for a specific time. If a private ship is pointed down the runway, meaning they are ready for tow and a school plane needs to launch, they take precedence. I do a lot of hook up, not an employee just another glider pilot trying to be helpful but occasionally one of the "glassholes" gets their panties in a wad. Every one gets launched but perhaps as quickly as they might like.

The students, glider rides and rentals keep the operation open and pay the bills to a greater degree than a private ship paying for a tow and a place for their trailer. Any suggestions on this procedure?

Walt

[bildan]

On May 30, 10:19*am, Walt Connelly <Walt.Connelly.
> wrote:
> Just curious as to how it's done elsewhere. *I fly at a commercial
> operation and the priority for launch always goes to the school
> gliders....this makes sense...the student has scheduled for a specific
> time days in advance.... Next come the renal ships and glider rides and
> they too have been scheduled for a specific time. * If a private ship is
> pointed down the runway, meaning they are ready for tow and a school
> plane needs to launch, they take precedence. *I do a lot of hook up, not
> an employee just another glider pilot trying to be helpful but
> occasionally one of the "glassholes" gets their panties in a wad. *Every
> one gets launched but perhaps as quickly as they might like.
>
> The students, glider rides and rentals keep the operation open and pay
> the bills to a greater degree than a private ship paying for a tow and a
> place for their trailer. * *Any suggestions on this procedure?
>
> Walt
>
> --
> Walt Connelly

You've pretty much described how our local commercial operation does
it. Most of the time it works as planned but a problem arises when
the natural rhythm of soaring gets out of sync with the schedule.
It's tough to make gliders work to a schedule. If some people have
expectations otherwise, they can get irritated. Schedules just set
people up to be disappointed.

IMVHO, a better solution is a simple start queue operated on a first
come, first served basis. School gliders, rides, private ships get
just in line and launch in that order. A queue is easy to
understand. The rules are simple too. If a pilot isn't ready when
the tug is, he gets pushed out of line and goes to the rear. Don't
get in the queue unless you're ready to fly. Most of all, don't
'crash' the line.

XC types who want a noon launch can finesse the queue by entering it
at a time calculated to bring them to the front at noon. The queue
will be filled with XC gliders around mid-day but that's OK if it fits
everyone's expectations. Training and rides work better in the
smoother air of early morning and late afternoon anyway.

[Tony[_5_]]

On May 30, 3:28*pm, bildan > wrote:
> On May 30, 10:19*am, Walt Connelly <Walt.Connelly.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > Just curious as to how it's done elsewhere. *I fly at a commercial
> > operation and the priority for launch always goes to the school
> > gliders....this makes sense...the student has scheduled for a specific
> > time days in advance.... Next come the renal ships and glider rides and
> > they too have been scheduled for a specific time. * If a private ship is
> > pointed down the runway, meaning they are ready for tow and a school
> > plane needs to launch, they take precedence. *I do a lot of hook up, not
> > an employee just another glider pilot trying to be helpful but
> > occasionally one of the "glassholes" gets their panties in a wad. *Every
> > one gets launched but perhaps as quickly as they might like.
>
> > The students, glider rides and rentals keep the operation open and pay
> > the bills to a greater degree than a private ship paying for a tow and a
> > place for their trailer. * *Any suggestions on this procedure?
>
> > Walt
>
> > --
> > Walt Connelly
>
> You've pretty much described how our local commercial operation does
> it. *Most of the time it works as planned but a problem arises when
> the natural rhythm of soaring gets out of sync with the schedule.
> It's tough to make gliders work to a schedule. *If some people have
> expectations otherwise, they can get irritated. *Schedules just set
> people up to be disappointed.
>
> IMVHO, a better solution is a simple start queue operated on a first
> come, first served basis. *School gliders, rides, private ships get
> just in line and launch in that order. *A queue is easy to
> understand. *The rules are simple too. *If a pilot isn't ready when
> the tug is, he gets pushed out of line and goes to the rear. *Don't
> get in the queue unless you're ready to fly. *Most of all, don't
> 'crash' the line.
>
> XC types who want a noon launch can finesse the queue by entering it
> at a time calculated to bring them to the front at noon. * The queue
> will be filled with XC gliders around mid-day but that's OK if it fits
> everyone's expectations. *Training and rides work better in the
> smoother air of early morning and late afternoon anyway.

our club launches on a first come first served basis too and it works
out fine. we rarely have more than about 2 or 3 waiting at a time
though.

[John Cochrane[_2_]]

On May 30, 11:19*am, Walt Connelly <Walt.Connelly.
> wrote:
> Just curious as to how it's done elsewhere. *I fly at a commercial
> operation and the priority for launch always goes to the school
> gliders....this makes sense...the student has scheduled for a specific
> time days in advance.... Next come the renal ships and glider rides and
> they too have been scheduled for a specific time. * If a private ship is
> pointed down the runway, meaning they are ready for tow and a school
> plane needs to launch, they take precedence. *I do a lot of hook up, not
> an employee just another glider pilot trying to be helpful but
> occasionally one of the "glassholes" gets their panties in a wad. *Every
> one gets launched but perhaps as quickly as they might like.
>
> The students, glider rides and rentals keep the operation open and pay
> the bills to a greater degree than a private ship paying for a tow and a
> place for their trailer. * *Any suggestions on this procedure?
>
> Walt
>
> --
> Walt Connelly

The owner of the tug obviously wants to keep his investment in gliders
and instructors working. Your post says this is is a commercial
operation, not a club or a charity, so the answer seems clear:
Business class. If you, mr. private glider, want a tow Right Now,
thereby idling my investment in a training glider, instructor, and
lowering my throughput of students, go for it, that will be $80. If
you want to pay $40, wait until the students rentals and rides are
done. Now everybody's happy.

(If the private gliders are still unhappy, start a club. Pitch in to
buy a towplane and lease it back to the commercial operator. Now you
get to go first in "your" towplane. I bet the occasional $80 tows will
soon start to look cheap!)

John Cochrane

[Nigel Pocock[_2_]]

aviationbanter.com> wrote:
>> > Just curious as to how it's done elsewhere. =

At our club in the Uk it is first come first served for both aerotow and
winch. If it gets busy we pull out an extra tug or winch.
However if it looks like a good cross country day we set up a grid similar
to a competition grid and when conditions are sutable launch them all as
quickly as possible using all our tugs.
Typically this takes about 45min for 60 gliders.
This short break from training or trial lessons normally keeps everyone
happy

[Nigel Pocock[_2_]]

aviationbanter.com> wrote:
>> > Just curious as to how it's done elsewhere. =

At our club in the Uk it is first come first served for both aerotow and
winch. If it gets busy we pull out an extra tug or winch.
However if it looks like a good cross country day we set up a grid similar
to a competition grid and when conditions are sutable launch them all as
quickly as possible using all our tugs.
Typically this takes about 45min for 60 gliders.
This short break from training or trial lessons normally keeps everyone
happy

[Walt Connelly]

You've pretty much described how our local commercial operation does
it. Most of the time it works as planned but a problem arises when
the natural rhythm of soaring gets out of sync with the schedule.
It's tough to make gliders work to a schedule. If some people have
expectations otherwise, they can get irritated. Schedules just set
people up to be disappointed.

IMVHO, a better solution is a simple start queue operated on a first
come, first served basis. School gliders, rides, private ships get
just in line and launch in that order. A queue is easy to
understand. The rules are simple too. If a pilot isn't ready when
the tug is, he gets pushed out of line and goes to the rear. Don't
get in the queue unless you're ready to fly. Most of all, don't
'crash' the line.

XC types who want a noon launch can finesse the queue by entering it
at a time calculated to bring them to the front at noon. The queue
will be filled with XC gliders around mid-day but that's OK if it fits
everyone's expectations. Training and rides work better in the
smoother air of early morning and late afternoon anyway.[/QUOTE]

The simple start queue idea is a good one but remember, the commercial operator is trying to maximize the school rental/training/ride revenue producing function and still satisfy the private owners.

The real problem is a lack of people available to help out in the various tasks required. Towing a rental to the staging area, wing walkers or drivers, hookup crew and the like. It would be nice to have an extra tow pilot on occasion but the cost is most likely prohibitive. My guess is that many of these operations in this economy are running close to the margins. When they stop meeting the taxes, insurance, maintenance, salaries, upkeep and other fixed and variable expenses then we might find ourselves looking at a cow pasture. I don't want that to happen.

Walt

[Dan Marotta]

Glassholes??? It's not the construction of the glider that makes the
personality of the pilot...

I tow at a commercial operation three days a week and I don't know of any
specific rules for who gets towed first. It's always been first come, first
served. On the weekends there's a club operation and they provide their own
tow plane for members only. If there's a large queue, many times club
members will pay a bit extra for a commercial tow just to get into the air
at the time of their choice.

I used to fly and tow at a club in another state. The rule there was that,
if there was a long queue, you could pull out another tow plane (we had
three), make 10 tows, and pull your glider to the front of the launch line.
Yes, people complained when I did that, though they didn't complain about my
shortening the line.

OBTW, when I pull my glider out to fly, it's made of glass...


"Walt Connelly" > wrote in message
...
>
> Just curious as to how it's done elsewhere. I fly at a commercial
> operation and the priority for launch always goes to the school
> gliders....this makes sense...the student has scheduled for a specific
> time days in advance.... Next come the renal ships and glider rides and
> they too have been scheduled for a specific time. If a private ship is
> pointed down the runway, meaning they are ready for tow and a school
> plane needs to launch, they take precedence. I do a lot of hook up, not
> an employee just another glider pilot trying to be helpful but
> occasionally one of the "glassholes" gets their panties in a wad. Every
> one gets launched but perhaps as quickly as they might like.
>
> The students, glider rides and rentals keep the operation open and pay
> the bills to a greater degree than a private ship paying for a tow and a
> place for their trailer. Any suggestions on this procedure?
>
> Walt
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walt Connelly

[bildan]

On May 31, 6:32*am, Walt Connelly <Walt.Connelly.
> wrote:

> The simple start queue idea is a good one but remember, the commercial
> operator is trying to maximize the school rental/training/ride revenue
> producing function and still satisfy the private owners.

> Walt Connelly

Absolutely true - but there's a business concept called "enlightened
self-interest". It's been my experience those commercial operations
who try to make rigid schedules work are less successful than those
who simply try to do as much flying as possible every day.

That not to say some schedule finessing isn't a good idea. By
launching glider rides and training flights into mid-day turbulence,
the commercial operator risks "bad press" as customers relate their
unpleasant experience to friends, family and associates. A major
source of new business is word of mouth advertising but it cuts both
ways.

As a one-time instructor/ride pilot, I've seen it happen many times.
The happiest first-time customers were those who got the early and
late flights. If the flying day had been expanded an hour or so, a
mid-day launch window could have been assigned to private owners at
essentially no cost while improving customer relations.

Happy private owners will send their friends family and associates to
the commercial operator for still more word of mouth advertising.

Bill Daniels

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Mon, 30 May 2011 23:29:07 +0000, Nigel Pocock wrote:

> aviationbanter.com> wrote:
>>> > Just curious as to how it's done elsewhere. =
>
> At our club in the Uk it is first come first served for both aerotow and
> winch.
>
Where I fly, also UK, at busy times we run two winch queues: one for
training and trial flights in two seaters and the other for single seaters
and private two-place gliders. Both queues operate on a first-come, first
served basis. We tried using two winches but found little benefit from
that as in practice the main delay is from ab initio and trial flight
briefings: if both queues contain gliders and an instructor is busy
briefing, the single seat line gets launched until he's ready.

We have a separate first-come, first served aero-tow line, which is
usually served by one tug unless the queue is unusually long, when the
other tug also gets pulled out until the queue is cleared.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[kirk.stant]

First come, first served - if you are ready - seems to work best.

At commercial sites I have worked and flown at, launching a grid of XC
(or local racers) at a specified time also works - the commercial
instructors and students get a midday break, and the private owners
get a quick launch.

My club, unfortunately, uses a "first to sign up on the towsheet gets
priority" system that drives me crazy - since you can show up early,
move gliders out, clean canopies, help a newby, but forget to sign up
until late morning - then when you push out your glider get told "wait
in line - Joe Blow is in front of you" even though good old Joe just
showed up, signed up, went to breakfast, and is still trying to figure
out how to open his canopy.

Seriously, the tow lines fortunately (or unfortunately) are rarely
long enough to cause a problem, but the system is fundamentally
flawed.

Of course, this is the same club where the first person out will place
his glider at the very back edge of the runway (gotta have every foot
available, you know...), thereby preventing anyone else from gridding
behind him.

As we all know, the rate of change in glider club procedures can be
glacial....

Kirk
66

[vaughn[_3_]]

"bildan" > wrote in message
...
>As a one-time instructor/ride pilot, I've seen it happen many times.
>The happiest first-time customers were those who got the early and
>late flights.

True. Much of this can be helped by proper diplomacy and by managing
expectations from the start. I used to tell ride customers that soaring is
supposed to be a fun, relaxing experience, not something regulated by a clock.
My favorite line: "When you come to a gliderport, don't have anything more
accurate than a calendar strapped to your wrist".

Same goes for students:. Remind them that they only pay for time in the air,
but there is much to be learned by watching (and assisting) on the ground.

Vaughn

[Walt Connelly]

[QUOTE=Dan Marotta;772671]Glassholes??? It's not the construction of the glider that makes the
personality of the pilot...



OBTW, when I pull my glider out to fly, it's made of glass...


"Walt Connelly" wrote in message
...[color=blue][i]

I agree, it's not the construction of the glider that makes the personality of the pilot, but I have observed that to at least to some degree, those with the more economical ships have the best attitudes. "Glasshole" was not a term I coined.

The operational standards are set by the owner and they make sense to me. What I am trying to do is come up with a system that will be equitable and reasonable and perhaps present it them. Just because you have pulled out and parked next to the runway and left your glider for a couple of hours does not give you special dispensation. Many students and renters drive for hours to get to the glider port. They have a reasonable expectation of flying at a certain time. I agree with the comments about rides being done in the calmer air but a $120 to $160 dollar ride produces more revenue than a 200 foot tow.... I don't remember a rider even at mid-day not returning with a big smile, (okay, one puked but that's gonna happen) I understand the owners position.

Walt

[Walt Connelly]

;772676']"bildan" wrote in message
...
As a one-time instructor/ride pilot, I've seen it happen many times.
The happiest first-time customers were those who got the early and
late flights.

True. Much of this can be helped by proper diplomacy and by managing
expectations from the start. I used to tell ride customers that soaring is
supposed to be a fun, relaxing experience, not something regulated by a clock.
My favorite line: "When you come to a gliderport, don't have anything more
accurate than a calendar strapped to your wrist".

Same goes for students:. Remind them that they only pay for time in the air,
but there is much to be learned by watching (and assisting) on the ground.

Vaughn

I could not agree more about reminding students that much is to be learned by watching and assisting on the ground. While I was taking lessons I would show up early, bring my books, hang out at the launch line and study, chase rope, hook up, watch, listen and learn. Can you believe that there are people with licenses who can't properly hook up a Schweizer?

The Japanese students who come here to learn to fly bring a different work ethic than the American students. It's observable to a high degree...they work as a team. We can learn a lot by watching them.

Walt

[Walt Connelly]

First come, first served - if you are ready - seems to work best.



My club, unfortunately, uses a "first to sign up on the towsheet gets
priority" system that drives me crazy - since you can show up early,
move gliders out, clean canopies, help a newby, but forget to sign up
until late morning - then when you push out your glider get told "wait
in line - Joe Blow is in front of you" even though good old Joe just
showed up, signed up, went to breakfast, and is still trying to figure
out how to open his canopy.

Seriously, the tow lines fortunately (or unfortunately) are rarely
long enough to cause a problem, but the system is fundamentally
flawed.

Of course, this is the same club where the first person out will place
his glider at the very back edge of the runway (gotta have every foot
available, you know...), thereby preventing anyone else from gridding
behind him.

As we all know, the rate of change in glider club procedures can be
glacial....

Kirk
66

Some people just ain't got no bringing up. There will always be the helpful, thoughtful types and then those who show up, sign up and go to breakfast. People talk about growing this sport, making it flourish but their attitudes and actions don't follow suit.

Placing your glider at the back edge of the runway might be appropriate in certain circumstances..... say a DG 1000 on a hot day..... otherwise.

Walt

[Jim Beckman[_2_]]

At 22:17 30 May 2011, John Cochrane wrote:

>The owner of the tug obviously wants to keep his investment in gliders
>and instructors working. Your post says this is is a commercial
>operation, not a club or a charity, so the answer seems clear:
>Business class. If you, mr. private glider, want a tow Right Now,
>thereby idling my investment in a training glider, instructor, and
>lowering my throughput of students, go for it, that will be $80. If
>you want to pay $40, wait until the students rentals and rides are
>done. Now everybody's happy.

Well, you can't ever make everybody happy. But this is
certainly a wonderful solution, and at least answers
everybody's objections. (And you know what - there
would be a certain number of folks willing to pay the $80.)

Jim Beckman

[Jim Beckman[_2_]]

At 16:18 31 May 2011, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>
>Where I fly, also UK, at busy times we run two winch queues: one for
>training and trial flights in two seaters and the other for single
seaters
>
>and private two-place gliders. Both queues operate on a first-come, first

>served basis. We tried using two winches but found little benefit from
>that as in practice the main delay is from ab initio and trial flight
>briefings: if both queues contain gliders and an instructor is busy
>briefing, the single seat line gets launched until he's ready.

Why would a glider that is not ready to launch be in
the launch queue? Seems odd to me, but hey, I'm from
the Colonies, so I think simple thoughts.

Jim Beckman

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 18:27:22 +0000, Jim Beckman wrote:

> Why would a glider that is not ready to launch be in the launch queue?
>
Some instructors seem to like briefing in the launch queue no matter what
the CFI says about the practise, though launch line delays are a more
common problem with trial flights: some pax just take a lot of time to
get into the glider, get strapped in and be ready to go, particularly if
you need ballast weights and/or need to put cushions or the ASK21
adjustable backrest into the glider.

The above palaver tends to happen near the front of the queue because we
tend not to put bodies into aircraft until they're number 2 or 3 in the
winch queue. Unlike an aero tow queue, its more important to keep moving
gliders forward as those in front of them launch. Our closest winch queue
is no more that 20-30m out from the launch point bus and we won't launch
a glider that isn't level with the front of the bus. This prevents a wing-
drop and the resultant swing and release from sling-shotting the glider
into the bus or any people standing by it.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |