Filament wound airfoils. (again)

[[email protected]]

Howdy,

I was channel surfing the other day, and caught a glimpse of how they
make rotor blades for the Hind MI-8 helicopter on RT. (Russian News)
Very Interesting. They use small sections of metal (aluminum?)
honeycomb cut to the shape of the airfoil, align it them with the spar
on the leading and trailing edges, and then filament wind the whole
lot together, preesumably with carbon fiber.

I imagine a simmilar technique might be servicable for experimental
aircraft. paper fiber honeycomb is used as packing material and can
probably be had quite cheap. I was thinking, cut it to form, attach it
to the spar, drown the whole lot in epoxy. Then after it cures
filament wind it to make the skin.

Just a thought.

[Steve Hix[_2_]]

In article >,
" > wrote:

> Howdy,
>
> I was channel surfing the other day, and caught a glimpse of how they
> make rotor blades for the Hind MI-8 helicopter on RT. (Russian News)

Nit: The Hind is Mi-24. The Mi-8 (9/17) is "Hip".

(NATO reporting names begin with "H" for helicopters, "F" for fighters, "C" for
cargo aircraft, etc.)

[Philippe[_4_]]

le dimanche 5 juin 2011 01:17, s'est penché sur son écritoire numérique:

> I imagine a simmilar technique might be servicable for experimental
> aircraft. paper fiber honeycomb is used as packing material and can
> probably be had quite cheap. I was thinking, cut it to form, attach it
> to the spar, drown the whole lot in epoxy. Then after it cures
> filament wind it to make the skin.
More difficult than layout carbon fabric and require more tools.

I prefer the basic
1 layer bid 0°/90°,
1 layer biaxial ±45°,
1 layer bid 0°-90° in a simple wood mold

--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ODCf7J8L0o
Philippe Vessaire Ò¿Ó¬

[Morgans[_4_]]

"Philippe" wrote in message news:2876563.GUn9oUikQW@GastonCoute...

le dimanche 5 juin 2011 01:17, s'est penché sur son
écritoire numérique:

> I imagine a simmilar technique might be servicable for experimental
> aircraft. paper fiber honeycomb is used as packing material and can
> probably be had quite cheap. I was thinking, cut it to form, attach it
> to the spar, drown the whole lot in epoxy. Then after it cures
> filament wind it to make the skin.
More difficult than layout carbon fabric and require more tools.

I prefer the basic
1 layer bid 0°/90°,
1 layer biaxial ±45°,
1 layer bid 0°-90° in a simple wood mold
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yep. And they would need and autoclave (pressure and heat) to cure it all,
and expensive machinery to wind it with the accuracy needed to make a
reliable structure.

Filament winding is definitely not for homebuilders.

-- Jim in NC

[Atheist Chaplain[_2_]]

> wrote in message
...
> Howdy,
>
> I was channel surfing the other day, and caught a glimpse of how they
> make rotor blades for the Hind MI-8 helicopter on RT. (Russian News)
> Very Interesting. They use small sections of metal (aluminum?)
> honeycomb cut to the shape of the airfoil, align it them with the spar
> on the leading and trailing edges, and then filament wind the whole
> lot together, preesumably with carbon fiber.
>
> I imagine a simmilar technique might be servicable for experimental
> aircraft. paper fiber honeycomb is used as packing material and can
> probably be had quite cheap. I was thinking, cut it to form, attach it
> to the spar, drown the whole lot in epoxy. Then after it cures
> filament wind it to make the skin.
>
> Just a thought.
>
>
>
>
>
why use paper honeycomb, a foam form would be easier to shape accurately and
just as light, though filament winding would require a degree of accuracy
that most homebuilders could not afford.

--
[This comment is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Church of
Scientology International]
"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your
Christ"

[Atheist Chaplain[_2_]]

"Paul Saccani" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 6 Jun 2011 19:24:46 +1000, "Atheist Chaplain" >
> wrote:
>
>>why use paper honeycomb, a foam form would be easier to shape accurately
>>and
>>just as light, though filament winding would require a degree of accuracy
>>that most homebuilders could not afford.
>
> Indeed.
>
> Getting the building bug? ;)
> --
> Cheers,
> Paul Saccani
> Perth, Western Australia.

Had it for a while Paul :-)
Just need to clear some space out in the garage for a start, I have been
reading and researching this for a while now and have even put a dent in the
list of tools required (though we all know that Murphy was an optimist ) The
biggest hurdle I have is the sub 0 temps we get here in winter so laying
down the skins and curing is only a summer prospect here :-).
KR forums are a wealth of information and most times Google is your friend.

--
[This comment is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Church of
Scientology International]
"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your
Christ"

[Jeff R.]

"Atheist Chaplain" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Paul Saccani" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Mon, 6 Jun 2011 19:24:46 +1000, "Atheist Chaplain" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>why use paper honeycomb, a foam form would be easier to shape accurately
>>>and
>>>just as light, though filament winding would require a degree of accuracy
>>>that most homebuilders could not afford.
>>
>> Indeed.
>>
>> Getting the building bug? ;)
>> --
>> Cheers,
>> Paul Saccani
>> Perth, Western Australia.
>
> Had it for a while Paul :-)
> Just need to clear some space out in the garage for a start, I have been
> reading and researching this for a while now and have even put a dent in
> the list of tools required (though we all know that Murphy was an
> optimist ) The biggest hurdle I have is the sub 0 temps we get here in
> winter so laying down the skins and curing is only a summer prospect here
> :-).

One could always consider the possibility of alloy and rivets.
Works for me.

--
Jeff R.

[Philippe[_4_]]

le dimanche 5 juin 2011 01:17, s'est penché sur son écritoire numérique:

> I was channel surfing the other day, and caught a glimpse of how they
> make rotor blades for the Hind MI-8 helicopter on RT. (Russian News)
> Very Interesting. They use small sections of metal (aluminum?)
> honeycomb cut to the shape of the airfoil, align it them with the spar
> on the leading and trailing edges, and then filament wind the whole
> lot together, preesumably with carbon fiber.

If you see the French process, blades are made from prepreg layouts and, for the core, a resin
becoming foam during the cure. The mold is a two parts heavy metal machined block and the cure
time one or two days in an oven.

--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ODCf7J8L0o
Philippe Vessaire Ò¿Ó¬

[Atheist Chaplain[_2_]]

"Paul Saccani" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 10 Jun 2011 23:15:24 +1000, "Atheist Chaplain"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>"Paul Saccani" > wrote in message
...
>>> On Mon, 6 Jun 2011 19:24:46 +1000, "Atheist Chaplain" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>why use paper honeycomb, a foam form would be easier to shape accurately
>>>>and
>>>>just as light, though filament winding would require a degree of
>>>>accuracy
>>>>that most homebuilders could not afford.
>>>
>>> Indeed.
>
> I did the sums, and it seems that paper honey comb would come out a
> good deal lighter. That might be OK for fixed wing, but no good for
> rotary, the original application.
>

interesting, but accuracy in the forms would be my greatest worry,
especially for a lifting surface,
how would they compare ??

> Funnily enough, one of my old students was an engineer on that rotor
> fabrication at PZL.
>
>>> Getting the building bug? ;)
>>
>>Had it for a while Paul :-)
>
> Excellent.
>
>>Just need to clear some space out in the garage for a start, I have been
>>reading and researching this for a while now and have even put a dent in
>>the
>>list of tools required (though we all know that Murphy was an optimist )
>>The
>>biggest hurdle I have is the sub 0 temps we get here in winter so laying
>>down the skins and curing is only a summer prospect here :-).
>>KR forums are a wealth of information and most times Google is your
>>friend.
>
> Stinky stuff. ;) I prefer metal myself. It's so easy to have subtle
> flaws concealed in that resin based stuff.
>

considered metal and rivets but early on I came to the conclusion that I can
put a dent in armour plate so working with thinner materials is a dodgy
prospect :-)

> I suppose you are thinking of one of those foam cored canards?
>

KR2 with foam core wings seems to be a good prospect and having learnt
laying down of glass and resin at high school I do have some experience with
it :-)


> VH or RAA?

still RAA, not enough disposable income to cross over to VH just yet :-) If
ever, I don't see a need just yet for carrying any more than one passenger
ATM and RAA registered AC that are for sale are still thick on the ground at
reasonable prices if I decide to buy.
My old flying school offers a Jab 160 wet for $140 ph

> --
> Cheers,
> Paul Saccani
> Perth, Western Australia.


--
[This comment is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Church of
Scientology International]
"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your
Christ"

[Cees Binkhorst]

On 06/22/2011 12:26 PM, Paul Saccani wrote:
>
>>> VH or RAA?
>>
>> still RAA, not enough disposable income to cross over to VH just yet :-) If
>> ever, I don't see a need just yet for carrying any more than one passenger
>> ATM and RAA registered AC that are for sale are still thick on the ground at
>> reasonable prices if I decide to buy.
>
> This is where we have it over the yankees. They have speed
> restrictions on LSA, no retractable, fixed pitch airscrews - we've got
> much more freedom than they have in this regard.
>
>

From what I have read lately, one can get a licence to fly a normal
automobile, without any changes, as an experimental aeroplane in Australia.

Most likely with strict area restrictions ;)

Regards / Cees

PS. Who will be the first te use UTS's graphene paper in an experimental
plane?
http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-04-breakthrough-paper-stronger-steel.html

[Atheist Chaplain[_2_]]

"Paul Saccani" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 15 Jun 2011 23:24:01 +1000, "Atheist Chaplain"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>"Paul Saccani" > wrote in message
...
>>> On Fri, 10 Jun 2011 23:15:24 +1000, "Atheist Chaplain"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Paul Saccani" > wrote in message
...
>>>>> On Mon, 6 Jun 2011 19:24:46 +1000, "Atheist Chaplain" >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>why use paper honeycomb, a foam form would be easier to shape
>>>>>>accurately
>>>>>>and
>>>>>>just as light, though filament winding would require a degree of
>>>>>>accuracy
>>>>>>that most homebuilders could not afford.
>>>>>
>>>>> Indeed.
>>>
>>> I did the sums, and it seems that paper honey comb would come out a
>>> good deal lighter. That might be OK for fixed wing, but no good for
>>> rotary, the original application.
>>>
>>
>>interesting, but accuracy in the forms would be my greatest worry,
>>especially for a lifting surface,
>>how would they compare ??
>
> It's not really my area, I should imagine it wouldn't be a great
> industrial problem. For the homebuilder, I don't think either
> technique should be used for making rotors.
>>
>>considered metal and rivets but early on I came to the conclusion that I
>>can
>>put a dent in armour plate so working with thinner materials is a dodgy
>>prospect :-)
>>
>>> I suppose you are thinking of one of those foam cored canards?
>>>
>>
>>KR2 with foam core wings seems to be a good prospect and having learnt
>>laying down of glass and resin at high school I do have some experience
>>with
>>it :-)
>
> Ah well, have fun.
>
> Fixed or retractable gear?
>

Probably fixed tricycle to start with.
There was a page on the net by Mark Langford detailing his modified KR2
build and he had some wonderful methods for laying down bubble free glass
skins as well as the use of Carbon fibre for leading edges etc. sadly upon
checking my bookmarks I find it has disappeared

Google is my friend :-)
http://www.n56ml.com/

> VollyWobble or what?
>

not a fan of auto conversions, Jabiru make a couple of reasonably priced 4
and 6 cylinder engines designed for the job.

>>> VH or RAA?
>>
>>still RAA, not enough disposable income to cross over to VH just yet :-)
>>If
>>ever, I don't see a need just yet for carrying any more than one passenger
>>ATM and RAA registered AC that are for sale are still thick on the ground
>>at
>>reasonable prices if I decide to buy.
>
> This is where we have it over the yankees. They have speed
> restrictions on LSA, no retractable, fixed pitch airscrews - we've got
> much more freedom than they have in this regard.
>
>



> --
> Cheers,
> Paul Saccani
> Perth, Western Australia.


--
[This comment is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Church of
Scientology International]
"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your
Christ"

[Atheist Chaplain[_2_]]

"Paul Saccani" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 20:54:35 +1000, "Atheist Chaplain"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>Probably fixed tricycle to start with.
>>There was a page on the net by Mark Langford detailing his modified KR2
>>build and he had some wonderful methods for laying down bubble free glass
>>skins as well as the use of Carbon fibre for leading edges etc. sadly upon
>>checking my bookmarks I find it has disappeared
>>
>>Google is my friend :-)
>>http://www.n56ml.com/
>
> I have to say, I haven't had the best success with those kinds of
> materials, myself. Just a matter of lack of familiarity, I suppose,
> but I am far more comfortable with metal.
>
>>> VollyWobble or what?
>>>
>>
>>not a fan of auto conversions, Jabiru make a couple of reasonably priced 4
>>and 6 cylinder engines designed for the job.
>
> IIRC, the KR2 was designed around the 1600cc volleywobble. The
> installation of the Jabiru engine is extremely finicky if you can't
> get a FWF kit for your aircraft. The oil sumps on them are also
> incredibly small, with a maximum oil consumption rate that can result
> in oil exhaustion within hours. A lot of people have had a great deal
> of trouble in setting them up so they won't over heat.
>

Mark Langford uses a corvair in his KR, albeit with a few (known) issues
popping up.
As to Jabs eating oil I have not come across this problem just yet in the
J160 I (semi)regularly fly, and a friend who owns a J230 doesn't seem to
find it a problem and he regularly flies it long distances for his work. I
suppose a modified larger sump could be manufactured if it became a problem
:-)

> You can actually get certified VW engines, BTW.
>
> Have you got a set of plans yet?

not just yet, thought after a bit of a surf the other night, I am becoming
more enamoured of the Brumby kits, metal and rivets :-)

> --
> Cheers,
> Paul Saccani
> Perth, Western Australia.


--
[This comment is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Church of
Scientology International]
"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your
Christ"

[Atheist Chaplain[_2_]]

"Paul Saccani" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 26 Jun 2011 13:02:04 +1000, "Atheist Chaplain"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>"Paul Saccani" > wrote in message
...
>>> On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 20:54:35 +1000, "Atheist Chaplain"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Probably fixed tricycle to start with.
>>>>There was a page on the net by Mark Langford detailing his modified KR2
>>>>build and he had some wonderful methods for laying down bubble free
>>>>glass
>>>>skins as well as the use of Carbon fibre for leading edges etc. sadly
>>>>upon
>>>>checking my bookmarks I find it has disappeared
>>>>
>>>>Google is my friend :-)
>>>>http://www.n56ml.com/
>>>
>>> I have to say, I haven't had the best success with those kinds of
>>> materials, myself. Just a matter of lack of familiarity, I suppose,
>>> but I am far more comfortable with metal.
>>>
>>>>> VollyWobble or what?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>not a fan of auto conversions, Jabiru make a couple of reasonably priced
>>>>4
>>>>and 6 cylinder engines designed for the job.
>>>
>>> IIRC, the KR2 was designed around the 1600cc volleywobble. The
>>> installation of the Jabiru engine is extremely finicky if you can't
>>> get a FWF kit for your aircraft. The oil sumps on them are also
>>> incredibly small, with a maximum oil consumption rate that can result
>>> in oil exhaustion within hours. A lot of people have had a great deal
>>> of trouble in setting them up so they won't over heat.
>>>
>>
>>Mark Langford uses a corvair in his KR, albeit with a few (known) issues
>>popping up.
>>As to Jabs eating oil I have not come across this problem just yet in the
>>J160 I (semi)regularly fly, and a friend who owns a J230 doesn't seem to
>>find it a problem and he regularly flies it long distances for his work.
>
> Have a read of the J120 flight manual, where it spells out oil
> capacity. I think you will be surprised
>
> It is a mystery to me why the capacity is so small.
>
> I've not had any problems with them in the J120 etc... - but the
> engine is designed for the aircraft. But if you read the flight
> manual, capacity is 2.2 l and with *maximum* observed consumption of
> 600 ml/hour, I feel disquieted. Naturally, the usual consumption is
> way less than that.
>
> For flights of 3 hours or greater, you have to use a separate, higher
> mark on the dipstick before commencing flight. As maximum endurance
> for the J160 is 13 hours, that's not entirely reassuring.
>

Bugger, Oh well I usually only fly for an hour or two at a time so I never
noticed, I will ask my mate with the 230, as his is new I assume he just
thinks this is normal.

>> I
>>suppose a modified larger sump could be manufactured if it became a
>>problem
>>:-)
>
> I'm pretty sure that would not be a trivial exercise on that engine,
> IIRC.
>
>>> You can actually get certified VW engines, BTW.
>>>
>>> Have you got a set of plans yet?
>>
>>not just yet, thought after a bit of a surf the other night, I am becoming
>>more enamoured of the Brumby kits, metal and rivets :-)
>
> Jeez! That looks like around 60 grand! I doubt that they will sell
> you plans, just a kit and assembly instructions. Not that there is
> anything wrong with that. Wider than a 172, sounds nice.
> --

Locally made as in Cowra, that's only 50 minutes drive from here
:-)

> Cheers,
> Paul Saccani
> Perth, Western Australia.


--
[This comment is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Church of
Scientology International]
"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your
Christ"

[Atheist Chaplain[_2_]]

"Paul Saccani" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 2 Jul 2011 17:20:36 +1000, "Atheist Chaplain" >
> wrote:
>
>>> Jeez! That looks like around 60 grand! I doubt that they will sell
>>> you plans, just a kit and assembly instructions. Not that there is
>>> anything wrong with that. Wider than a 172, sounds nice.
>>> --
>>
>>Locally made as in Cowra, that's only 50 minutes drive from here
>
> It sounds nice, but you could get a decent used jabie for a lot less.
>
> Just saying...
>
> Or that KR2 in this months Sport Pilot. ;)
> --
> Cheers,
> Paul Saccani
> Perth, Western Australia.

The $19k one that's 99% finished :-)
I'm not a fan of the short arse on them, that's why I would probably prefer
to build my own from scratch so I could hang the empennage a bit further
back. Though at that price it is a good buy considering the man hours gone
into it.
Second hand jabs are thick on the ground and the local airport is filling up
with them, I like be a little different :-)
New Sportscruiser would be nice but I would have to sell both my kids
kidneys to get one :-)

--
[This comment is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Church of
Scientology International]
"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your
Christ"

[Jeff R.]

"Atheist Chaplain" > wrote in message
...
>
> Second hand jabs are thick on the ground and the local airport is filling
> up with them, I like be a little different :-)
> New Sportscruiser would be nice but I would have to sell both my kids
> kidneys to get one :-)
>
> --
> [This comment is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Church of
> Scientology International]
> "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike
> your Christ"


Would you be prepared to buy into the Zenith CH-701 vs Savannah debate?
I really like the idea of the former with a Continental 0-200.

....or are they a little too agricultural?

Me? I *like* the looks, and definitely prefer a high wing.
....and none of that smelly resin stuff.

--
Jeff R.

[Atheist Chaplain[_2_]]

"Jeff R." > wrote in message
u...
>
> "Atheist Chaplain" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Second hand jabs are thick on the ground and the local airport is filling
>> up with them, I like be a little different :-)
>> New Sportscruiser would be nice but I would have to sell both my kids
>> kidneys to get one :-)
>>
>> --
>> [This comment is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Church
>> of Scientology International]
>> "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike
>> your Christ"
>
>
> Would you be prepared to buy into the Zenith CH-701 vs Savannah debate?
> I really like the idea of the former with a Continental 0-200.
>
> ...or are they a little too agricultural?
>
> Me? I *like* the looks, and definitely prefer a high wing.
> ...and none of that smelly resin stuff.
>
> --
> Jeff R.
>
>
>
>
:-)
I grew up on that smelly resin stuff, I made quite a few canoes and kayaks
while at High School for the school and a couple on the side for private
consumption :-)
Haven't seen a Savannah or Zenith in the flesh yet but a I hear they fly
well.
As I learnt to fly in a J160 and have also flown a J230 on the odd occasion
I do like high wing AC but, as anyone who has flown a J160 can tell you they
do jump around a bit when its lumpy and in my dotage I would like something
that is a bit more stable and dare I say comfortable :-)
I also like the almost 180 degree vision afforded some of the modern low
wings, and with a few of the "cowboys" (Or as I like to call them "CUBs"
{Cashed Up Bogans}) that are currently training in my area, the sooner I
get to see them coming the better I like it.
Haven't got my head around tail draggers yet either so don't have an opinion
one way or the other.

--
[This comment is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Church of
Scientology International]
"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your
Christ"

[Jeff R.[_2_]]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Saccani" >
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.homebuilt
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 8:49 PM
Subject: Re: Filament wound airfoils. (again)


> You would be better off with a CH750 if that is your engine of choice.

I thought that too, but they cross the line between
"comfortably-trailerable" and "damn-near-impossible-to-trailer."
Also, their STOL specs are (surprisingly!) a lot poorer than the 701.

Some folks have put 0-200s into 701s with success, so it can be done.
Also, the 750 would come perilously close to GA.

Anyone know of any 701s flying around the Sydney/NSW area?

--
Jeff R.