Wingtips for PW-5 [Archive]

kilocharlie

June 9th 11, 07:32 PM

Andy[_1_]

June 9th 11, 09:03 PM

On Jun 9, 11:32*am, kilocharlie <kilocharlie.
> wrote:
> Did anyone run across any information related to Wingtips
> design/availability for the PW-5. This is understood that it will negate
> PW-5 World Class categorization however shell be available to all PW-5
> registered uder Experimental Cert...
> I believe I SAW it only once somewhere in Australia (Website which I did
> not saved in my bookmarks - bummer me !!).
> Solution incorporated exchange to standard and "extended"
> wingtips-with-winglets ..
> I remember that it was mentioned to bring PW-5 L/D up to some 35-36 ...
>
> Any info would be highly appreciated since we plan to use our PW's
> strictly for fun flying and all of them are "experimental" ...
>
> Best Regards;
>
> Kris Cichon (KiloCharlie)
>
> --
> kilocharlie

The PW5 only has wingtips. What you need is the wings to add them
to ;)

Bob Kuykendall

June 9th 11, 11:54 PM

On Jun 9, 11:32*am, kilocharlie <kilocharlie.
> wrote:
> Did anyone run across any information related to Wingtips
> design/availability for the PW-5. This is understood that it will negate
> PW-5 World Class categorization however shell be available to all PW-5
> registered uder Experimental Cert...

The only PW5's I've met in person felt so lightly built that I'd be a
bit worried about whether there is enough margin for increasing the
root bending moment as you would with span extensions. Of course,
there might be enough margin for some modestly-sized winglets but even
those will increase the root bending moment somewhat.

[email protected]

June 10th 11, 01:09 AM

On Jun 9, 3:54*pm, Bob Kuykendall > wrote:
> On Jun 9, 11:32*am, kilocharlie <kilocharlie.
>
> > wrote:
> > Did anyone run across any information related to Wingtips
> > design/availability for the PW-5. This is understood that it will negate
> > PW-5 World Class categorization however shell be available to all PW-5
> > registered uder Experimental Cert...
>
> The only PW5's I've met in person felt so lightly built that I'd be a
> bit worried about whether there is enough margin for increasing the
> root bending moment as you would with span extensions. Of course,
> there might be enough margin for some modestly-sized winglets but even
> those will increase the root bending moment somewhat.

You can't put lipstick on a pig...

Al

ContestID67[_2_]

June 10th 11, 03:52 AM

Whether or not you can add wing extensions or winglets I cannot say -
but - I believe people on this thread are being unfair to the PW-5.
We have several in the club (private and club owned) and they are much
loved. They are a great stepping stone ship for new pilots to move
from trainers on their way to slick modern long wings. Inexpensive,
benign, a reasonable XC ship, very easy to rig, and, from what I can
see, strong. Don't be a snob.

RRK

June 10th 11, 05:35 AM

On Jun 9, 10:52*pm, ContestID67 > wrote:
> Whether or not you can add wing extensions or winglets I cannot say -
> but - I believe people on this thread are being unfair to the PW-5.
> We have several in the club (private and club owned) and they are much
> loved. *They are a great stepping stone ship for new pilots to move
> from trainers on their way to slick modern long wings. *Inexpensive,
> benign, a reasonable XC ship, very easy to rig, and, from what I can
> see, strong. *Don't be a snob.

Not to mention, that there is no less expensive, new glider build in
the last 20 years.

RRK

June 10th 11, 05:39 AM

> You can't put lipstick on a pig...

Rich Fat Pig talking

[email protected]

June 10th 11, 11:19 AM

On Jun 9, 9:39*pm, RRK > wrote:
> > You can't put lipstick on a pig...
>
> Rich Fat Pig talking

HAHAHA...

No we debated it to death on here PW5's suck donkey balls.
Everyone knows that...

Winglets on donkey balls wont make those fly any faster either...

FLAME SUIT ON....

Where is lenny the lurker when you need him...
Lenny...?
Lenny.... ?

kilocharlie

June 10th 11, 02:47 PM

On Jun 9, 11:32*am, kilocharlie kilocharlie.
wrote:
Did anyone run across any information related to Wingtips
design/availability for the PW-5. This is understood that it will negate
PW-5 World Class categorization however shell be available to all PW-5
registered uder Experimental Cert...

The only PW5's I've met in person felt so lightly built that I'd be a
bit worried about whether there is enough margin for increasing the
root bending moment as you would with span extensions. Of course,
there might be enough margin for some modestly-sized winglets but even
those will increase the root bending moment somewhat.

**** .. In a matter of fact, PW-5 is built in the "tradition" of other polish glass gliders ( Jantar, Acro etc ...) ... strong and over-engineered at best - LIKE TANK ... don't be fool by the light "feeling". I personally know a privately owned PW-5 which is loaded to the "brink" by its owner in order to get higher wing load for XC .. and it works rather well for him ..
Also, there are some tips that there were 15m PW-5 version with a retrac gear on their desks (politechnika Warszawska) ... but it never took shape since it did not comply with World Standard .. and SZD had Junior in prototype stage already ..
Anyway, in my opinion 0.7 meter wing extension with winglet would be a really nice performance enhancement for this ship. Make it swappable with original tips and you really would have a great XC trainer.
As for me ... I love it..
I am 6'4" ... and feel REALLY COMFORTABLE in PW-5 cabin ... being 210lb myself I use 4kg tail ballast for CG adjustment. In XC flight it beats anything but the modest glass costing few times over ;-) ...

Kris Cichon

kilocharlie

June 10th 11, 03:07 PM

Did anyone run across any information related to Wingtips design/availability for the PW-5. This is understood that it will negate PW-5 World Class categorization however shell be available to all PW-5 registered uder Experimental Cert...
I believe I SAW it only once somewhere in Australia (Website which I did not saved in my bookmarks - bummer me !!).
Solution incorporated exchange to standard and "extended" wingtips-with-winglets ..
I remember that it was mentioned to bring PW-5 L/D up to some 35-36 ...

Any info would be highly appreciated since we plan to use our PW's strictly for fun flying and all of them are "experimental" ...

Best Regards;

Kris Cichon (KiloCharlie)

Thank You guys for sending me this link (presented below) ..
Nope this is not a link I was looking for (one I remember was for PW-5 explicitly). However I see winglets building process is NOT THAT COMPLICATED AT ALL ...
We may evaluate it and design PW-5 oriented solution. Will see...
here is that link: http://gonzo-home.com/winglets.htm

However is somebody would find out about PW-5 wing extension / winglets solutions (or any other perf improvements) ... Your post / update would be highly appreciated...

Kris Cichon - KiloCharlie

kilocharlie

June 10th 11, 03:19 PM

On Jun 9, 9:39*pm, RRK wrote:
You can't put lipstick on a pig...

Rich Fat Pig talking

HAHAHA...

No we debated it to death on here PW5's suck donkey balls.
Everyone knows that...

Winglets on donkey balls wont make those fly any faster either...

FLAME SUIT ON....

Where is lenny the lurker when you need him...
Lenny...?
Lenny.... ?

... Hehehhehe .. Mister ASW22 Pilot .. don't talk EVERYONE for me !!! ..
If anything I rather FLY "donkeyballs" then hold-them-sqize-them-and-run-around -- like some ASW pilots do ;-) ... hehehehe

Here in Midwest .. PW-5's (all of them ) are "out there high in blue" every time I stop at our strip .. when most of "expensive glass is packed in trailers "waiting for the better weather" ... hahaha ... see what flies ? .. donkey balls .. they DO !!!... hahaha :-)

KiloCharlie

Ventus_a

June 10th 11, 06:15 PM

;774957']Whether or not you can add wing extensions or winglets I cannot say -
but - I believe people on this thread are being unfair to the PW-5.
We have several in the club (private and club owned) and they are much
loved. They are a great stepping stone ship for new pilots to move
from trainers on their way to slick modern long wings. Inexpensive,
benign, a reasonable XC ship, very easy to rig, and, from what I can
see, strong. Don't be a snob.

I can agree with much of what you say but they ain't cheap in the US compared to here in NZ. My Club sold one for NZ$13.5k although it did need the rudder cables replacing. A private one in as new condition with c.100hrs, no trailer, was sold for NZ$19k

They are so easy to rig and derig. Don't mind going to retrieve them

Haven't flown one but maybe one day if I get bored with flying my Ventus a and Nimbus 3D

:-0 Colin

Bob Kuykendall

June 10th 11, 06:30 PM

On Jun 9, 9:35*pm, RRK > wrote:

> Not to mention, that there is no less expensive, new glider build in
> the last 20 years.

Debatable.

Thanks, Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24

Bob Kuykendall

June 10th 11, 10:52 PM

On Jun 10, 6:47*am, kilocharlie <kilocharlie.
> wrote:

> **** .. In a matter of fact, PW-5 is built in the "tradition" of other
> polish glass gliders ( Jantar, Acro etc ...) ... strong and
> over-engineered at best - LIKE TANK ... don't be fool by the light
> "feeling"...

I've lifted the PW5 wing and felt its flex, and I've seen the wing
sandwich plies where one got broken open in a minor landing mishap. I
stand by my assertion that it is a lightly built glider.

Don't get me wrong, I think it is a perfectly safe glider. I am
confident that it is well-engineered, and that it is every bit as
strong as it needs to be to react all of the flight loads within its
operational envelope.

What I think it doesn't have is margin for loads outside the envelope.
Things like ground handling loads, mishaps, minor accidents, and
things of that nature. Margin is what gives gliders robustness and the
ability to operate under harsh conditions and trying circumstances. I
definitely agree that the other Polish gliders you name have such
margin. But that margin has cost, and the cost is extra weight.

To some degree, the lack of margin that I mention is inescapable when
building small, inexpensive gliders. It is inescapable because when
you scale down the size of the glider you generally cannot scale down
the size of the pilot to match.

In order to make the glider climb well, you need it to have low wing
loading. But small gliders have small wings, and the pilots that they
need to carry are generally not any lighter than the pilots of larger
gliders. So to make it climb well, you make it lighter by being more
careful with materials and eliminating margin where practical.

Of course, you can make the glider small, light, and robust by using
very strong high-tech materials like pre-preg carbon like the
SparrowHawk. But then you throw inexpensive right out the window. It's
all a big compromise, and always has been.

Thanks, Bob K.

Vsoars

June 11th 11, 12:20 AM

On Jun 9, 7:09*pm, " >
wrote:
> On Jun 9, 3:54*pm, Bob Kuykendall > wrote:
>
> > On Jun 9, 11:32*am, kilocharlie <kilocharlie.
>
> > > wrote:
> > > Did anyone run across any information related to Wingtips
> > > design/availability for the PW-5. This is understood that it will negate
> > > PW-5 World Class categorization however shell be available to all PW-5
> > > registered uder Experimental Cert...
>
> > The only PW5's I've met in person felt so lightly built that I'd be a
> > bit worried about whether there is enough margin for increasing the
> > root bending moment as you would with span extensions. Of course,
> > there might be enough margin for some modestly-sized winglets but even
> > those will increase the root bending moment somewhat.
>
> You can't put lipstick on a pig...
>
> Al

It is sad that some people want to take their precious time to try to
kill soaring or at least kill the joy of soaring for others. Al, do
you not care that others may find enormous satisfaction in soaring in
these lovely gliders? PW 5s are just as much fun to fly as the
expensive ships. Yes. I found it fun to fly a Duo Discus in Omarama.
But for places like Parawan, or any place in this country, nothing can
beat the fun of a PW 5. (I have over 1,100 hours in one, nearly all on
cross-country flights, some in wave flights; it’s not just for
beginners.)

When you use this world-wide forum just to kick sand in other people’s
faces, you are making it harder for those who are working to grow the
sport. Did you get THAT much pleasure in making a snobbish and
insulting remark? Some people who criticize lower cost gliders do so
out of a fear that they could not fly a lower L/D ship cross-country
successfully.

In response to the question, the PW 5 is not a “lightly built” ship.
Oran Nicks developed plans to build a PW 5 with extension winglets.
Nicks was a highly respected aeronautical engineer, instrumental in
the design of the space shuttle and was the US representative in the
selection of the PW 5 as the World Class glider. According to his
calculations, the structural integrity of this sturdy ship could
easily allow for the extensions. He home-built a PW 5 and was working
to encourage others to do so. Not only would it have both the “class-
legal” tips and the 15 meter tips, it could be stored in a
conventional garage (without winglets), thus avoiding the cost of a
hanger and long trailer. The goal was low cost gliding for those who
don’t want to spend a huge sum of money. I hope someone will pursue
this great idea.

[email protected]

June 11th 11, 05:33 AM

On Jun 10, 4:20*pm, Vsoars > wrote:
> On Jun 9, 7:09*pm, " >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 9, 3:54*pm, Bob Kuykendall > wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 9, 11:32*am, kilocharlie <kilocharlie.
>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > Did anyone run across any information related to Wingtips
> > > > design/availability for the PW-5. This is understood that it will negate
> > > > PW-5 World Class categorization however shell be available to all PW-5
> > > > registered uder Experimental Cert...
>
> > > The only PW5's I've met in person felt so lightly built that I'd be a
> > > bit worried about whether there is enough margin for increasing the
> > > root bending moment as you would with span extensions. Of course,
> > > there might be enough margin for some modestly-sized winglets but even
> > > those will increase the root bending moment somewhat.
>
> > You can't put lipstick on a pig...
>
> > Al
>
> It is sad that some people want to take their precious time to try to
> kill soaring or at least kill the joy of soaring for others. Al, do
> you not care that others may find enormous satisfaction in soaring in
> these lovely gliders? PW 5s are just as much fun to fly as the
> expensive ships. Yes. I found it fun to fly a Duo Discus in Omarama.
> But for places like Parawan, or any place in this country, nothing can
> beat the fun of a PW 5. (I have over 1,100 hours in one, nearly all on
> cross-country flights, some in wave flights; it’s not just for
> beginners.)

True... everyone can get enjoyment from flying anything, isn't that
the joy of flight?

But I think this sport takes itself WAY to seriously....
If you show up every weekend to fly a PW5 more power to you, I guess I
need to punctuate every post with a ;) or LOL.

I am at a point in my life where I cannot fly as much as I want
because of business and family.
But I race every night with anywhere between 15-20 guys from France
and Europe on Condor to keep the XC strategy skills alive and find a
lot of enjoyment in that.
You can find the race results on http://condor-club.eu.

My Salto is about to be finished and will be flying that... Now
that's the same span as a PW5 and out performs a PW5 in every
dimension.
So I guess the message is fly what you can but always try to fly the
best you can get your hands on.

>
> When you use this world-wide forum just to kick sand in other people’s
> faces, you are making it harder for those who are working to grow the
> sport. *Did you get THAT much pleasure in making a snobbish and
> insulting remark? * Some people who criticize lower cost gliders do so
> out of a fear that they could not fly a lower L/D ship cross-country
> successfully.
>
> In response to the question, the PW 5 is not a “lightly built” ship.
> Oran Nicks developed plans to build a PW 5 with extension winglets.
> Nicks was a highly respected aeronautical engineer, instrumental in
> the design of the space shuttle and was the US representative in the
> selection of the PW 5 as the World Class glider. According to his
> calculations, the structural integrity of this sturdy ship could
> easily allow for the extensions. *He home-built a PW 5 and was working
> to encourage others to do so. *Not only would it have both the “class-
> legal” tips and the 15 meter tips, it could be stored in a
> conventional garage (without winglets), thus avoiding the cost of a
> hanger and long trailer. *The goal was low cost gliding for those who
> don’t want to spend a huge sum of money. I hope someone will pursue
> this great idea.

If I recall correctly the Nicks fatal wounds were from the wing root D
section invading the cockpit as it cartwheeled after hitting an
obstruction.
With no leading edge cross tube there is not enough Fuz. strength to
prevent that from happening .

The Concept in all these smaller gliders is great but IMHO execution
of some is better than others is the reality.

Cheers

Al

Bruce Hoult

June 11th 11, 11:43 AM

On Jun 11, 5:30*am, Bob Kuykendall > wrote:
> On Jun 9, 9:35*pm, RRK > wrote:
>
> > Not to mention, that there is no less expensive, new glider build in
> > the last 20 years.
>
> Debatable.
>
> http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24

How much fully assembled and certified?

As I recall, our two PW5s (serial numbers 5 and 6) cost us NZ$25k
each. That would have been about 14k EUR or 20k USD at the time.

An old K6 would have been cheaper, a Libelle possibly about the same
(but unsuitable as a first single-seater), or a Cirrus quite a bit
more (ditto for low hours).

The PW5s haven't lived up to the predictions made for numbers built,
price, one class contests and so forth, but I don't think they were a
bad buy and I've had many enjoyable flights in them. I also had a lot
of very nice flights in our Janus (fall flying tail version -- ditto
about not for beginners) and now DG1000s, so it's not as if I'm
ignorant of higher performance gliders.

The PW5 is great for what it is, and for what we paid for it.

If you can sell a modern good handling brand new 15m glider for club
use for the same kind of price we paid for the PW5s then I suspect
we'd be there with out cheque books open very quickly indeed!

Jim Beckman[_2_]

June 11th 11, 12:00 PM

At 13:47 10 June 2011, kilocharlie wrote:
>
>**** .. In a matter of fact, PW-5 is built in the "tradition" of other
>polish glass gliders ( Jantar, Acro etc ...) ... strong and
>over-engineered at best - LIKE TANK ...

Like a septic tank, maybe.

Sorry, but I just *can't* pass up a straight line like that one.

Jim Beckman

Eric Greenwell[_4_]

June 12th 11, 03:57 AM

On 6/10/2011 9:33 PM, wrote:

>
> True... everyone can get enjoyment from flying anything, isn't that
> the joy of flight?
>
> But I think this sport takes itself WAY to seriously....
> If you show up every weekend to fly a PW5 more power to you, I guess I
> need to punctuate every post with a ;) or LOL.

Far better would be avoid this kind of disparging comment in the first
place. Any humor in this point of view drained away years ago; now it's
just a cheap shot that causes bitterness among people that should be
friends.

It's worth remembering this: if you or any other pilot has not had a
flight farther than 986 km, you've been bested by a glider with wings
2.5 meters shorter than a PW5.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

CletaSmelmLer

June 12th 11, 07:16 PM

Hi nice topic you have going here!

kilocharlie

June 13th 11, 07:09 PM

On Jun 9, 7:09*pm, "
wrote:[color=blue][i]

In response to the question, the PW 5 is not a “lightly built” ship.
Oran Nicks developed plans to build a PW 5 with extension winglets.
Nicks was a highly respected aeronautical engineer, instrumental in
the design of the space shuttle and was the US representative in the
selection of the PW 5 as the World Class glider. According to his
calculations, the structural integrity of this sturdy ship could
easily allow for the extensions. He home-built a PW 5 and was working
to encourage others to do so. Not only would it have both the “class-
legal” tips and the 15 meter tips, it could be stored in a
conventional garage (without winglets), thus avoiding the cost of a
hanger and long trailer. The goal was low cost gliding for those who
don’t want to spend a huge sum of money. I hope someone will pursue
this great idea.

His technical determination strongly support our opinion of this glider. We have seen so many "hard landings on PW-5's ... not-so-ideal takeoffs ... etc .. And they are still intact serving new and experience pilots with unmatched level of flexibility. And taking about assembly ... - quick and simple with only wing stand needed. Can't bit that. Reflecting on current trend we may let go reaming "metal" in our club and just rest on PW-5's as a solely one "intermediate" - "fun" fliers.
Looking around for wintips design/manufacturer .. we are puting together list of possible "takers"... in hope that documented interest will generate SOLUTION ;-)

KiloCharlie ...

PS..// yesterday .. "flat day" in Midwest ... Longest flights were ... DG400, Jantar Std and PW5 !!! (me at controls) .. ;-) .. were DG300 landed out and most of "glass" counted some 30 min mediocere flights ;-) .. go figure ..//

RRK

June 14th 11, 03:25 AM

> > Not to mention, that there is no less expensive, new glider build in
> > the last 20 years.
>
> Debatable.
>
> Thanks, Bob K.http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24

Debatable ?
As much as I wish you the very best with your interesting project, it
is a pipe dreaming, to think that you'll build HP's-24 with standard
certificate, and be willing to sell them for less then $25,000.-
It is not going to happened.
Richard K. GR8

Ventus_a

June 14th 11, 07:09 PM

Not to mention, that there is no less expensive, new glider build in
the last 20 years.

Debatable.

Thanks, Bob K.http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24

Debatable ?
As much as I wish you the very best with your interesting project, it
is a pipe dreaming, to think that you'll build HP's-24 with standard
certificate, and be willing to sell them for less then $25,000.-
It is not going to happened.
Richard K. GR8

Of course it's a pipe dream but not Bob's. He includes the link in all the posts I've seen of his. if you have in fact looked at what he is trying to achieve you would realise he isn't trying to produce a ready to fly standard certificate glider for less than $25k but a kit for people who wish to get their hands 'dirty' as part of getting in the air in their own ship.

More power to him I say

Colin

Derek C

June 14th 11, 07:13 PM

On Jun 12, 7:16*pm, CletaSmelmLer <CletaSmelmLer.
> wrote:
> Hi nice topic you have going here!
>
> --
> CletaSmelmLer

Nothing wrong with a PW5 that 15 metre wings and a proper tailplane
wouldn't put right!

Brad[_2_]

June 14th 11, 09:15 PM

On Jun 14, 11:09*am, Ventus_a >
wrote:
> RRK;775168 Wrote:
>
> > --
> > Not to mention, that there is no less expensive, new glider build in
> > the last 20 years.-
>
> > Debatable.
>
> > Thanks, Bob K.http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24-
>
> > Debatable ?
> > As much as I wish you the very best with your interesting project, it
> > is a pipe dreaming, to think that you'll build HP's-24 with standard
> > certificate, and be willing to sell them for less then *$25,000.-
> > It is not going to happened.
> > Richard K. *GR8
>
> Of course it's a pipe dream but not Bob's. *He includes the link in all
> the posts I've seen of his. *if you have in fact looked at what he is
> trying to achieve you would realise he isn't trying to produce a ready
> to fly standard certificate glider for less than $25k but a kit for
> people who wish to get their hands 'dirty' as part of getting in the air
> in their own ship.
>
> More power to him I say
>
> Colin
>
> --
> Ventus_a

I am the beta-builder for the HP-24. And let me tell you, it is a
beautiful looking sailplane. I hope we can get a lot of kits out
there, but it is a lot of work; to produce kits as well as build them.
But, the end result will be quite a nice sailplane.

Brad

Ben Flewett[_2_]

June 14th 11, 10:25 PM

At 04:35 10 June 2011, RRK wrote:
>Not to mention, that there is no less expensive, new glider build in
>the last 20 years.
>

Perhaps. But why not buy a Cirrus... Less money, more performance, a
comparitively crashworthy cockpit, a meaningful class to race in, your
friends still talk to you, the benefits are endless.

You can't call a Cirrus driver a snob!

Cheers

Ben

Bruce Hoult

June 15th 11, 09:14 AM

On Jun 15, 9:25*am, Ben Flewett > wrote:
> At 04:35 10 June 2011, RRK wrote:
>
> >Not to mention, that there is no less expensive, new glider build in
> >the last 20 years.
>
> Perhaps. But why not buy a Cirrus... Less money, more performance, a
> comparitively crashworthy cockpit, a meaningful class to race in, your
> friends still talk to you, the benefits are endless.

One person can go out and buy a Cirrus cheaply. Probably even ten
could.

A hundred people or a thousand people could not.

I'm sure we've been over this :-)

BruceGreeff

June 15th 11, 09:22 AM

Cirrus is fun to fly, and it's as tough as nails.
PW5 is no doubt more forgiving, but I can't see the allure of spending
more money, on lower performance and lower strength.

FWIW the standard airframe life on the Std Cirrus is 15,000 hours. My
recently sold 1970 edition had less than 3000 on her. A shiny new glider
becomes a used glider very fast. Then you are only looking at
capability, flying characteristics and price...

Think - is it better to buy a new car and take the depreciation hit, or
to buy a nearly new car for 30% less? Believe me - at the end of the
first year you will be unable to tell the difference between the car you
purchased six months old and the car you put the first six month wear onto.

If you have the money and inclination to spend the extra money, you are
probably more in the market for a higher performance glider.

If you are looking for something that is newer/ lower maintenance/
lighter easier to rig etc. Then you might be in the market for a PW5.

It's a good thing there is such a diverse market out there - or I would
still be a bachelor...

On 2011/06/14 11:25 PM, Ben Flewett wrote:
> At 04:35 10 June 2011, RRK wrote:
>> Not to mention, that there is no less expensive, new glider build in
>> the last 20 years.
>>
>
> Perhaps. But why not buy a Cirrus... Less money, more performance, a
> comparitively crashworthy cockpit, a meaningful class to race in, your
> friends still talk to you, the benefits are endless.
>
> You can't call a Cirrus driver a snob!
>
> Cheers
>
> Ben
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Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771 & Std Cirrus #57

kilocharlie

June 15th 11, 05:02 PM

If you have the money and inclination to spend the extra money, you are
probably more in the market for a higher performance glider.

If you are looking for something that is newer/ lower maintenance/
lighter easier to rig etc. Then you might be in the market for a PW5.
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Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771 & Std Cirrus #57

Bruce, I just want to second your opinion.
I never meant to start PW-5 "fire" again. This post was originally intended to help find a Winglet/Wintips documentation - eventually a party interested making such.

Tremendous amount of heat IS JUST A CLEAR INDICATION OF THE OUTSTANDING VALUE OF THIS plane and fact that some pilots who made a different choice still have problem justifying their decisions.

We have our PW-5's and we are really happy with them.
As mentioned earlier:
-Flies just slightly "below "big brothers and sisters"
-Super SAFE - can't really stall it ;-), Do not believe? - fly one and check. Probably the only glider which offers such a forgiving behavior,
-Can be used a s transition trainer for faster SuperGlass (I practiced number of fast/flat landings before I got into 40x:1 ship..), yet could be "mounted" almost right after Solo
-Super cheap insurance,
-Super easy maintenance,
-Super Comfy - as mentioned I am 6'4" - 215lb .. and it feels roomy :-)
-During winter it simply "sleeps" in a standard garage (where I can work on it as it pleases me ;-)
-I can assemble this plane MYSELF (with some stand/riger) within 15minutes !!! - no problem / no kidding. If I have a helping hand rigging become a positive "joke".
-beats ALL the "antic metal" I can think off (and fly in our club) ... IT IS A GLASS by the way :-)

I fly it for FUN .. read it again .. FUN !!! ... It can "scrab" very well so I can stay in week Midwest lifts for surprisingly long time having FUN all the way. I simply "feel" PW-5 may use a bit longer wing / winglets especially for the heavier pilots like myself.

When I want some thrill then I jump on Orbitz and fly somewhere where I can RENT a "SuperGlass" (Duo-Discuss is my preference ;-) ... and due "something serious" Even then is costs serious backs it still offers me better / cheaper option then owning SuperGlass and all associated costs/troubles.

And please stop teasing me with a HP-24 kit. IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS GOING TO BE A GREAT GLIDER, however IT IS GOING TO BE prohibitively expensive - even as a kit ;-) (and please correct me with ballpark numbers so we can hold you accountable.. ;-). Not counting skills and hours required to build it - when SZD-55 or Shark is already there and ready. Want to get "reality check" ? -- reexamine history of Silent kits .. price/hours etc. For me KIT BUILDING goes as far as putting together 1:48 scale plastic model ;-)

Now, PW-5 could be purchased a new from Jezow for about 20k - call them and check (Mr. Mynarski will happily make one up for less - I bet) .. and remember that PW-5 was also made as kit (more then twenty sent to Egypt as I remember) .. so it would be/ should be available for all of those who have all time on their hands ...

I want to click-and-fly .. and have fun doing it. If not flying - I would rather be working in my profession (which is not "garage-kit-builder", making some monies to fly even more ;-)

Thank You All for your great interest responding to my request .. and please stay "on subject" ...
If anyone considering "winglets build challenge" - here, we would take at least 3 kits if available (assuming some 2.5-3k price range).
If PW-5 Construction Plan Set is available anywhere, we would be interested as well

Kris Cichon - KiloCharlie

GK[_2_]

June 15th 11, 07:06 PM

> Perhaps. But why not buy a Cirrus...

Because 85 percent of US based Cirruses I looked at when I was
shopping for a glider require about 15+ grand to bring them to a semi-
decent ( of course semi-decent is a relative term) condition... Most
of them look exactly as the 40 year aged glider with minimal work or
nothing at all, done to the glider or the trailer.

Cheers,

GK