STC for Outside Mirrors for Pawnee

[Carl B]

I've Googled for STC's for outside mirrors for Pawnee but haven't
found any hits since 2004 and no link to an STC. There have been a
couple of messages about the FAA requiring the removal of outside
mirrors which did not have STC's.

Does anybody have any suggestions on how to get an outside mirror
installation which will be acceptable to the FAA? I would really like
to have a better view while in flight.

[Darryl Ramm]

337? I would guess any ones they asked to be removed never had a 337
completed for install? Or are you saying that even with a 337 for an
install that the FAA is reversing the field approval and is now
insisting on a STC.

Darryl

On Jun 12, 12:11*pm, Carl B > wrote:
> I've Googled for STC's for outside mirrors for Pawnee but haven't
> found any hits since 2004 and no link to an STC. *There have been a
> couple of messages about the FAA requiring the removal of outside
> mirrors which did not have STC's.
>
> Does anybody have any suggestions on how to get an outside mirror
> installation which will be acceptable to the FAA? I would really like
> to have a better view while in flight.

[T[_2_]]

On Jun 12, 12:11*pm, Carl B > wrote:
> I've Googled for STC's for outside mirrors for Pawnee but haven't
> found any hits since 2004 and no link to an STC. *There have been a
> couple of messages about the FAA requiring the removal of outside
> mirrors which did not have STC's.
>
> Does anybody have any suggestions on how to get an outside mirror
> installation which will be acceptable to the FAA? I would really like
> to have a better view while in flight.

Our mirrors are internal and serve us well.
External mirrors can be installed via a 337. Look for other 337
installations to mirror (copy). (pun intended)
Local CAP is working a removable 337 installation on a C182 so they
can remove the mirrors for other missions.

T

[150flivver]

On Jun 13, 12:54*pm, Carl B > wrote:
> On Jun 12, 12:42*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > 337? I would guess any ones they asked to be removed never had a 337
> > completed for install? Or are you saying that even with a 337 for an
> > install that the FAA is reversing the field approval and is now
> > insisting on a STC.
>
> > Darryl
>
> > On Jun 12, 12:11*pm, Carl B > wrote:
>
> > > I've Googled for STC's for outside mirrors for Pawnee but haven't
> > > found any hits since 2004 and no link to an STC. *There have been a
> > > couple of messages about the FAA requiring the removal of outside
> > > mirrors which did not have STC's.
>
> > > Does anybody have any suggestions on how to get an outside mirror
> > > installation which will be acceptable to the FAA? I would really like
> > > to have a better view while in flight.
>
> Darryl,
>
> I believe that the mirrors were put on without any documentation and
> that is why they were required to remove them.
>
> Carl

Who made the determination that installing a mirror is a major
alteration? Depending on what was done, I can certainly see how a
simple installation could be a minor alteration with only a logbook
entry required.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jun 13, 12:23*pm, 150flivver > wrote:
> On Jun 13, 12:54*pm, Carl B > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 12, 12:42*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
>
> > > 337? I would guess any ones they asked to be removed never had a 337
> > > completed for install? Or are you saying that even with a 337 for an
> > > install that the FAA is reversing the field approval and is now
> > > insisting on a STC.
>
> > > Darryl
>
> > > On Jun 12, 12:11*pm, Carl B > wrote:
>
> > > > I've Googled for STC's for outside mirrors for Pawnee but haven't
> > > > found any hits since 2004 and no link to an STC. *There have been a
> > > > couple of messages about the FAA requiring the removal of outside
> > > > mirrors which did not have STC's.
>
> > > > Does anybody have any suggestions on how to get an outside mirror
> > > > installation which will be acceptable to the FAA? I would really like
> > > > to have a better view while in flight.
>
> > Darryl,
>
> > I believe that the mirrors were put on without any documentation and
> > that is why they were required to remove them.
>
> > Carl
>
> Who made the determination that installing a mirror is a major
> alteration? *Depending on what was done, I can certainly see how a
> simple installation could be a minor alteration with only a logbook
> entry required.

Or just any paperwork. I should have been clearer in my post. If the
reality was there was no paperwork - no log book entry at all. Then
the FAA folks are just doing their job by requiring the mirrors be
removed. If the person installing them was properly qualified and made
the required log book entry for a minor modification then it will be
interesting if the FSDO says nope this is indeed a major mod. Who
really knows exactly what happened here? Is there any issue worth
worrying about at all? Or are we just wasting bandwidth?

Darryl

[GC[_2_]]

On 14/06/2011 08:42, Darryl Ramm wrote:

> Or just any paperwork. I should have been clearer in my post. If the
> reality was there was no paperwork - no log book entry at all. Then
> the FAA folks are just doing their job by requiring the mirrors be
> removed.

Strange country. If the mirrors were working fine and had been working
fine for some time, and had caused no problems in flight or in any other
way, then the FAA folk would be doing their job by asking the installer
to write up some paperwork.

"...requiring the mirrors be removed" is such an over the top,
bureaucratic approach to a non-problem I can't believe anybody sees it
as "doing their job". After all, it's not as if its a video camera
installed to allow the pilot to take pictures of himself while in flight
or some equally senseless addition. Mirrors on tugs are fundamental
safety devices installed to stop accidents and save lives.

How does it come to this, that requiring mirrors be removed from a tug
because there's no paperwork is seen as right and proper.

Madness.

GC

If the person installing them was properly qualified and made
> the required log book entry for a minor modification then it will be
> interesting if the FSDO says nope this is indeed a major mod. Who
> really knows exactly what happened here? Is there any issue worth
> worrying about at all? Or are we just wasting bandwidth?
>
> Darryl

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jun 14, 4:36*am, GC > wrote:
> On 14/06/2011 08:42, Darryl Ramm wrote:
>
> > Or just any paperwork. I should have been clearer in my post. If the
> > reality was there was no paperwork - no log book entry at all. Then
> > the FAA folks are just doing their job by requiring the mirrors be
> > removed.
>
> Strange country. *If the mirrors were working fine and had been working
> fine for some time, and had caused no problems in flight or in any other
> way, then the FAA folk would be doing their job by asking the installer
> to write up some paperwork.
>
> "...requiring the mirrors be removed" is such an over the top,
> bureaucratic approach to a non-problem I can't believe anybody sees it
> as "doing their job". *After all, it's not as if its a video camera
> installed to allow the pilot to take pictures of himself while in flight
> or some equally senseless addition. *Mirrors on tugs are fundamental
> safety devices installed to stop accidents and save lives.
>
> How does it come to this, that requiring mirrors be removed from a tug
> because there's no paperwork is seen as right and proper.
>
> Madness.
>
> GC
>
> If the person installing them was properly qualified and made
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > the required log book entry for a minor modification then it will be
> > interesting if the FSDO says nope this is indeed a major mod. Who
> > really knows exactly what happened here? Is there any issue worth
> > worrying about at all? Or are we just wasting bandwidth?
>
> > Darryl

We have no clue what happened, its just somebody said. But for
example, if there is no paperwork done at the time and an A&P willing
to stand behind it, what do you expect to happen? If an A&P did the
install but did not log it they might not be in a hurry to put up
their hands and say "I installed it" let me make that entry now in the
log book.... Yes a friendly FAA guy might say, you know I need to see
a log book entry next time I ask... or they might say remove the damn
thing. Or you might get creative and say they were removed and hey
presto reinstalled but this time with a log book entry.... either way
its a certified aircraft and stuff just does not appear on it with no
paperwork. And folks doing that are just creating potential hassles
for the future. But back to the original question, the last thing I'd
be asking for is an STC. Hopefully minimal work here is just a logbook
entry.

But again there are no details of any actual problem, how well the
mirrors were installed, by who and with what paperwork.


Darryl