Aviation Oxygen Locations in Chicago Area?

[ContestID67[_2_]]

Anyone have an address in the Chicago area to obtain aviation grade
oxygen? I have a friend who is having a heck of a time finding it.
You would think that some of the smaller airports handling executive
jets would have it.

Thanks, John

[Andy[_1_]]

On Jul 12, 4:39*pm, ContestID67 > wrote:
> Anyone have an address in the Chicago area to obtain aviation grade
> oxygen? *I have a friend who is having a heck of a time finding it.
> You would think that some of the smaller airports handling executive
> jets would have it.
>
> Thanks, John

Go to your local welding supplier. The oxygen is just the same as you
get from an FBO and a fraction of the price.

Andy

[ContestID67[_2_]]

>
> Go to your local welding supplier. *The oxygen is just the same as you
> get from an FBO and a fraction of the price.
>
> Andy

I don't believe that it can be welders oxygen. It can't even be
medical oxygen. It must be "Gaseous aviator’s breathing" (AVB)
oxygen. I read it has to do with the moisture content to prevent
freezing. True?

It there an FAA regulation on this? I can't find it.

Some info here http://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/pilotsafetybrochures/media/Oxygen_Equipment.pdf.

[Bill D]

> I don't believe that it can be welders oxygen. *It can't even be
> medical oxygen. *It must be "Gaseous aviator’s breathing" (AVB)
> oxygen. *I read it has to do with the moisture content to prevent
> freezing. *True?

False. The only oxygen available is just pure oxygen. There are no
classes, categories or separate "paper trails".

I have been told the familiar blue "Aviators Oxygen" oval sticker is
applied at the retail level solely for the purpose of setting a higher
price. There are no government regulations requiring it's use.

> It there an FAA regulation on this? *I can't find it.

There are no FAR's addressing oxygen composition. The words "aviation
or aviators oxygen" do not appear in the FAR's nor in any other
regulation I can find. The FAR's only describe when and where
'oxygen' is to be used.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jul 12, 7:51*pm, ContestID67 > wrote:
> > Go to your local welding supplier. *The oxygen is just the same as you
> > get from an FBO and a fraction of the price.
>
> > Andy
>
> I don't believe that it can be welders oxygen. *It can't even be
> medical oxygen. *It must be "Gaseous aviator’s breathing" (AVB)
> oxygen. *I read it has to do with the moisture content to prevent
> freezing. *True?
>
> It there an FAA regulation on this? *I can't find it.
>
> Some info herehttp://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/pilotsafetybrochures/media/Oxygen_Eq....

As Bill states, this is completely wrong. Its an old wives tale that
has been repeated here before and I've tried to shoot it down then as
well. I have some background in low-temperature physics/cryogenics
research so let me play whack-a-mole with this.

Oxygen is manufactured by fractional distillation of liquid air (the
Linde process). This generates highly pure oxygen. This produces an
inherently dry gas product. The same liquid oxygen is boiled off and
packaged as compressed oxygen for welding, aviation, medical, other
industrial and scientific applications. All the handling system for
these cryogenic liquids and gasses are very very clean for saftey
reasons.

None, nada, zilch of these end-use gasses have moisture added to them.
Compressed oxygen is a dangerous oxidizer. You would be beyond insane
to want to introduce moisture and resultant corrosion problems to a
compressed oxygen storage system. And under high pressure the moisture
would condense out. Expensive compressors and other equipment would be
damaged by this liquid condensation. Adiabatic cooling as the gas is
release through valves and regulators would cause condensation--if
there was moisture in aviators breathing oxygen regulators and flow
meters etc. could freeze up at cold temperatures found at altitude. It
just makes absolutely no sense to imagine any addition of moisture to
the compressed gas for any purpose. What seems to be the source of
this confusion is medical applications where water is vaporized and
added to the dry gas or the dry gas is bubbled through water etc. at
delivery time--all done at very low pressure.

So can we bury this one please?

Darryl

[kevin anderson]

On Jul 12, 7:39*pm, ContestID67 > wrote:
> Anyone have an address in the Chicago area to obtain aviation grade
> oxygen? *I have a friend who is having a heck of a time finding it.
> You would think that some of the smaller airports handling executive
> jets would have it.
>
> Thanks, John

If he can find a Technical Dive shop in the area that mixes gases for
deep water diving then they will fill tanks with aviators oxygen.
Best and easiest, and cheapest source I have in TN. Usually walk in
and walk out with a full tank instead of having to leave the tank at a
gas supply.

Kevin

[Andy[_1_]]

On Jul 12, 9:11*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:

> So can we bury this one please?
>
> Darryl

You may have to talk to someone at FAA. The link provided by the OP
includes this:

"Aviator’s
oxygen must meet certain standards to ensure that it is safe to be
taken to altitude. Only
aviator’s-grade breathing oxygen meets this specification. Neither
medical grade nor
industrial grade oxygen is safe to substitute because they do not meet
the same stringent
standards as ABO."

Of course it's been said many times in many places that this just
isn't true but FAA does seem to want to keep up the illusion. Maybe
their concern is that someone will top off with some other gas, such
as nitrogen which is available at many FBOs, if they don't insist on
ABO labeling.

Andy

[Richard[_9_]]

On Jul 12, 7:51*pm, ContestID67 > wrote:
> > Go to your local welding supplier. *The oxygen is just the same as you
> > get from an FBO and a fraction of the price.
>
> > Andy
>
> I don't believe that it can be welders oxygen. *It can't even be
> medical oxygen. *It must be "Gaseous aviator’s breathing" (AVB)
> oxygen. *I read it has to do with the moisture content to prevent
> freezing. *True?
>
> It there an FAA regulation on this? *I can't find it.
>
> Some info herehttp://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/pilotsafetybrochures/media/Oxygen_Eq....

go to this link for info about O2

http://www.mhoxygen.com/attachments/132_Transfilling%20Information.pdf

I provide O2 service for our towing operation at Montague. I purchase
large bottles from a gas distributor, (who is also a welding gas and
other gas distributor),

The O2 is the same, ie comes out of the same source except

Medical O2 requires a prescription, bottle is labeled Medical O2
Welding O2
Aviation O2 bottle is green and labeled ABO Aviators Breathing
Oxygen.

There is absolutely no difference in the product inside the bottle.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Richard[_9_]]

On Jul 12, 4:39*pm, ContestID67 > wrote:
> Anyone have an address in the Chicago area to obtain aviation grade
> oxygen? *I have a friend who is having a heck of a time finding it.
> You would think that some of the smaller airports handling executive
> jets would have it.
>
> Thanks, John

The O2 for welding, medical and ABO comes from the same source at the
GAS Supply Vendors the only difference is:

Medical: Bottle is labeled Medical O2 and requires a prescription.
Welding: Bottle is lableled O2
ABO: Bottle is labeled ABO (Aviatiors Breathing Oxygen)

There is absolutely no difference in the O2.

I supply O2 for our Soaring Operation at Montague, CA.

I Purchase O2 from a local Gas Distributor. I have watch them fill
the bottles.

Also info from Mountain High:

http://www.mhoxygen.com/attachments/132_Transfilling%20Information.pdf

Richard
www.craggyaero.com



Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Dan Marotta]

Finally some good information on a subject that just won't die.

O2 is O2 is O2... Basic chemistry.

I've been filling my cylinder at the welding shop for years. Read the
previous link about the FDA and required prescriptions.


"Richard" > wrote in message
...
On Jul 12, 4:39 pm, ContestID67 > wrote:
> Anyone have an address in the Chicago area to obtain aviation grade
> oxygen? I have a friend who is having a heck of a time finding it.
> You would think that some of the smaller airports handling executive
> jets would have it.
>
> Thanks, John

The O2 for welding, medical and ABO comes from the same source at the
GAS Supply Vendors the only difference is:

Medical: Bottle is labeled Medical O2 and requires a prescription.
Welding: Bottle is lableled O2
ABO: Bottle is labeled ABO (Aviatiors Breathing Oxygen)

There is absolutely no difference in the O2.

I supply O2 for our Soaring Operation at Montague, CA.

I Purchase O2 from a local Gas Distributor. I have watch them fill
the bottles.

Also info from Mountain High:

http://www.mhoxygen.com/attachments/132_Transfilling%20Information.pdf

Richard
www.craggyaero.com



Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[glidergeek]

On Jul 12, 4:39*pm, ContestID67 > wrote:
> Anyone have an address in the Chicago area to obtain aviation grade
> oxygen? *I have a friend who is having a heck of a time finding it.
> You would think that some of the smaller airports handling executive
> jets would have it.
>
> Thanks, John

John
I just Googled Welding supply in Chicago, came up with 10-12 hits.
Call and ask if they have ABO. and if they will fill your bottle. A
big

I've got 3 big bottles in my hangar that I buy from California Tool
And Welding, It IS all the same gas welding (industrial), medical &
ABO, the difference is when they fill my ABO dedicated bottles they
have an "Analizer" that tests the moisture content as they fill. If
they detect more than 5 ppm of moisture they reject dump & refill
until they get a reading below 5 ppm, I've watched them do it. I just
called my vender they charge $7.29 per 100 cu'. It's doubled since my
last fill a year ago. If you find an FBO I'd bet they will be between
$35-$50 for 25cu'.

The 2 reasons ABO is analyzed is it was/is feared that too high of
moisture content at high altitude the moisture along with the
expansion of the gas and very low temps could freeze up the regulator
and cause equipment malfunction. The other reason is/was older bottles
were made of iron, moisture corrodes iron creating rust, breathing
rusty oxygen is not good for you and the rust could create equipment
malfunctions.

Really I'm making this up it's bull **** but it sounds good, eh.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jul 13, 6:31*am, Andy > wrote:
> On Jul 12, 9:11*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
>
> > So can we bury this one please?
>
> > Darryl
>
> You may have to talk to someone at FAA. *The link provided by the OP
> includes this:
>
> "Aviator’s
> oxygen must meet certain standards to ensure that it is safe to be
> taken to altitude. Only
> aviator’s-grade breathing oxygen meets this specification. Neither
> medical grade nor
> industrial grade oxygen is safe to substitute because they do not meet
> the same stringent
> standards as ABO."
>
> Of course it's been said many times in many places that this just
> isn't true but FAA does seem to want to keep up the illusion. *Maybe
> their concern is that someone will top off with some other gas, such
> as nitrogen which is available at many FBOs, if they don't insist on
> ABO labeling.
>
> Andy

No thanks I don't want to talk to anybody at the FAA about this. The
claims are just not correct for all practical purposes. The comment
may be referring to other manufacturing processes used sometimes for
some low-purity industrial oxygen (which you could not buy if you
tried). But the stuff that goes out into the supply chain for welding,
medical, aviation etc. applications is all sourced from Linde
processing and is highly pure. As Richard says it comes from the same
big container - go talk with your gas supplier (but some naturally
won't want to sell you welding O2 if you tell them its for
aviation...).

Mixup or contamination of any oxygen source is a potential risk. Since
the same suppliers are handling the bottles I don't see one as as
safer than the other. For whatever use the cylinders better be clearly
labeled as O2.

Maybe more useful discussions on saftey are not related to the O2
labeling but the handling of the cylinders, trans-filling procedures,
maintenance and servicing etc. I've seen some pretty blase/scary
handling of O2 by glider pilots, old steel bottles last inspected God
knows when, etc...

Darryl

[Tom[_13_]]

On Jul 13, 9:39*am, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> On Jul 13, 6:31*am, Andy > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 12, 9:11*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
>
> > > So can we bury this one please?
>
> > > Darryl
>
> > You may have to talk to someone at FAA. *The link provided by the OP
> > includes this:
>
> > "Aviator’s
> > oxygen must meet certain standards to ensure that it is safe to be
> > taken to altitude. Only
> > aviator’s-grade breathing oxygen meets this specification. Neither
> > medical grade nor
> > industrial grade oxygen is safe to substitute because they do not meet
> > the same stringent
> > standards as ABO."
>
> > Of course it's been said many times in many places that this just
> > isn't true but FAA does seem to want to keep up the illusion. *Maybe
> > their concern is that someone will top off with some other gas, such
> > as nitrogen which is available at many FBOs, if they don't insist on
> > ABO labeling.
>
> > Andy
>
> No thanks I don't want to talk to anybody at the FAA about this. The
> claims are just not correct for all practical purposes. The comment
> may be referring to other manufacturing processes used sometimes for
> some low-purity industrial oxygen (which you could not buy if you
> tried). But the stuff that goes out into the supply chain for welding,
> medical, aviation etc. applications is all sourced from Linde
> processing and is highly pure. As Richard says it comes from the same
> big container - go talk with your gas supplier (but some naturally
> won't want to sell you welding O2 if you tell them its for
> aviation...).
>
> Mixup or contamination of any oxygen source is a potential risk. Since
> the same suppliers are handling the bottles I don't see one as as
> safer than the other. For whatever use the cylinders better be clearly
> labeled as O2.
>
> Maybe more useful discussions on saftey are not related to the O2
> labeling but the handling of the cylinders, trans-filling procedures,
> maintenance and servicing etc. I've seen some pretty blase/scary
> handling of O2 by glider pilots, old steel bottles last inspected God
> knows when, etc...
>
> Darryl- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

www.c-f-c.com/supportdocs/abo1.htm

Above link is very educational.

[jcarlyle]

On Jul 13, 12:39 pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> Maybe more useful discussions on saftey are not related to the O2
> labeling but the handling of the cylinders, trans-filling procedures,
> maintenance and servicing etc. I've seen some pretty blase/scary
> handling of O2 by glider pilots, old steel bottles last inspected God
> knows when, etc...

I'd welcome some discussion on the topics you mention. That would fill
a real need for pilots like myself who don't often use oxygen.

One thing I'm curious about is the hydrotesting requirement. If one of
the legendary arguments for using "aviation" oxygen is its low
moisture content (debunked above), then:

1. how is water completely removed from a cylinder after
hydrotesting, and
2. how can a user be assured that no corrosion will be created in his
cylinder as a result of hydrotesting?

-John

[Bill D]

On Jul 13, 11:51Â*am, jcarlyle > wrote:
> On Jul 13, 12:39 pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
>
> > Maybe more useful discussions on saftey are not related to the O2
> > labeling but the handling of the cylinders, trans-filling procedures,
> > maintenance and servicing etc. I've seen some pretty blase/scary
> > handling of O2 by glider pilots, old steel bottles last inspected God
> > knows when, etc...
>
> I'd welcome some discussion on the topics you mention. That would fill
> a real need for pilots like myself who don't often use oxygen.
>
> One thing I'm curious about is the hydrotesting requirement. If one of
> the legendary arguments for using "aviation" oxygen is its low
> moisture content (debunked above), then:
>

From talking with a hydrotesting shop owner as I waited for a bottle
to be serviced.

> 1. Â*how is water completely removed from a cylinder after
> hydrotesting, andl

They evacuate the bottle to a high vacuum while mildly heating it.

> 2. Â*how can a user be assured that no corrosion will be created in his
> cylinder as a result of hydrotesting?

The bottle is borescoped after hydrotesting with the valve removed.

BTW, I think Mythbusters had a program on what happens if you break
the valve off a high pressure cylinder. IIRC, reality didn't quite
live up to the urban myths.

Here's a deeper explanation of stamp codes.

Oxygen cylinders are marked to designate the type of cylinder, maximum
fill pressure, hydrostatic test date, inspector, manufacturer, and
serial number. The marking are normally stamped into the shoulder of
the cylinder. The hydrostatic test date and inspector mark indicate
when the cylinder was last tested and who tested the cylinder. Most
oxygen cylinders are required to be tested every 5 years. This test
ensures the cylinder can safety hold the maximum fill pressure. There
are two other markings which are sometimes found on these cylinders.
The plus (+) sign located after the test date designates that the
cylinder can be filled to 10% above the pressure stamped on the
cylinder. The five-pointed star in the same location designates that
the hydrostatic test date has been extended an additional 5 years. A
cylinder with a five-pointed star would need to be tested every 10
years.

Vertical Alignment:
DOT-3AA 2015
1234567
XY Corp
8 ® 08 + ۞

Horizontal Alignment:
DOT-3AA 2015 1234567 XY Corp 8 ® 08 + ۞
DOT = Department of Transportation
3AA = Seamless alloy-steel cylinder
2015 = 2015 psig fill pressure
1234567 = Serial number of cylinder
XY Corp = Manufacture of cylinder
8 ® 08 = Month and Year, in this example, August 2008, the symbol of
the inspector is commonly placed between month and year (® used as
example only)
+ = Cylinder maximum fill pressure can be 10% above 2015 psig or
2216.5 psig
Ûž = Cylinder may be tested every 10 years versus the standard 5 years

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jul 13, 10:51*am, jcarlyle > wrote:
> On Jul 13, 12:39 pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
>
> > Maybe more useful discussions on saftey are not related to the O2
> > labeling but the handling of the cylinders, trans-filling procedures,
> > maintenance and servicing etc. I've seen some pretty blase/scary
> > handling of O2 by glider pilots, old steel bottles last inspected God
> > knows when, etc...
>
> I'd welcome some discussion on the topics you mention. That would fill
> a real need for pilots like myself who don't often use oxygen.
>
> One thing I'm curious about is the hydrotesting requirement. If one of
> the legendary arguments for using "aviation" oxygen is its low
> moisture content (debunked above), then:
>
> 1. *how is water completely removed from a cylinder after
> hydrotesting, and
> 2. *how can a user be assured that no corrosion will be created in his
> cylinder as a result of hydrotesting?
>
> -John

The cylinders are typically dried by blowing air or heated air in
them. Larger shops will have drying stations with a rows of hoses and/
or tubes that go down into the cylinders and dry them.

Cylinder testing requirements by DOT regulations, e.g. see 49 CFR
180.205. At each pressure test they required to be also be visually
inspected inside and out, for corrosion amongst other things.

You cannot be assured of anything in life. Like packing a parachute,
find somebody you really trust to inspect your cylinders.

Darryl

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jul 13, 11:37*am, Bill D > wrote:
> On Jul 13, 11:51*am, jcarlyle > wrote:
>
> > On Jul 13, 12:39 pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
>
> > > Maybe more useful discussions on saftey are not related to the O2
> > > labeling but the handling of the cylinders, trans-filling procedures,
> > > maintenance and servicing etc. I've seen some pretty blase/scary
> > > handling of O2 by glider pilots, old steel bottles last inspected God
> > > knows when, etc...
>
> > I'd welcome some discussion on the topics you mention. That would fill
> > a real need for pilots like myself who don't often use oxygen.
>
> > One thing I'm curious about is the hydrotesting requirement. If one of
> > the legendary arguments for using "aviation" oxygen is its low
> > moisture content (debunked above), then:
>
> From talking with a hydrotesting shop owner as I waited for a bottle
> to be serviced.
>
> > 1. *how is water completely removed from a cylinder after
> > hydrotesting, andl
>
> They evacuate the bottle to a high vacuum while mildly heating it.
>

Yes pumping is another way, I am not sure I wonder if more places have
drying blowers than vacuum pumps. BTW its just a vacuum--a high vacuum
has as specific meaning (mean free path of the gas molecules approach
the size of the object) and most places just would not have the fancy
diffusion or other pumps or staff skills/training needed to pump down
to a high-vacuum.

Darryl

[jcarlyle]

On Jul 13, 2:51 pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> The cylinders are typically dried by blowing air or heated air in
> them. Larger shops will have drying stations with a rows of hoses and/
> or tubes that go down into the cylinders and dry them.
>
[ snip ]
>
> You cannot be assured of anything in life. Like packing a parachute,
> find somebody you really trust to inspect your cylinders.
>
> Darryl

Thanks, Bill and Darryl. Heating would do the trick, given enough
time.

I ran across the following site: http://www.westernsalesandtesting.com/services.htm
where they talk about cleaning the interior of the cylinder. Is
cleaning done normally on aviation oxygen tanks? The chemical cleaning
sounds thorough!

Darryl, how would you recommend going about evaluating a cylinder
inspection company before deciding to use them?

-John

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jul 13, 12:45*pm, jcarlyle > wrote:
> On Jul 13, 2:51 pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
>
> > The cylinders are typically dried by blowing air or heated air in
> > them. Larger shops will have drying stations with a rows of hoses and/
> > or tubes that go down into the cylinders and dry them.
>
> [ snip ]
>
> > You cannot be assured of anything in life. Like packing a parachute,
> > find somebody you really trust to inspect your cylinders.
>
> > Darryl
>
> Thanks, Bill and Darryl. Heating would do the trick, given enough
> time.
>
> I ran across the following site: *http://www.westernsalesandtesting.com/services.htm
> where they talk about cleaning the interior of the cylinder. Is
> cleaning done normally on aviation oxygen tanks? The chemical cleaning
> sounds thorough!
>
> Darryl, how would you recommend going about evaluating a cylinder
> inspection company before deciding to use them?
>
> -John

Word of mouth from local folks, other pilots, scuba divers etc. Talk
to them (if they have time). Ask them what they do in an inspection.
Ask them about common problems or worse case things they find. How
clean/modern is their shop? Etc. usual stuff.

Also important is care in checking on service bulletins on your
cylinder. If they are not paying attention to this go elsewhere. You
can describe your cylinder and manufacturing numbers and ask them what
needs to be done. If they don't go and look up the manufacturer
website (or know by daily experience) go elsewhere. Like with aircraft
AD, SB and TNs you should be looking this up yourself and know before
taking the cylinder in.


Darryl

[John Smith]

Bill D wrote:
> BTW, I think Mythbusters had a program on what happens if you break
> the valve off a high pressure cylinder. IIRC, reality didn't quite
> live up to the urban myths.

Actually, it did:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejEJGNLTo84

[Bruce Hoult]

On Jul 15, 2:02*am, John Smith > wrote:
> Bill D wrote:
> > BTW, I think Mythbusters had a program on what happens if you break
> > the valve off a high pressure cylinder. *IIRC, reality didn't quite
> > live up to the urban myths.
>
> Actually, it did:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejEJGNLTo84

I've been eyewitness to a forklift knocking down a pallet of cardboard
boxes containing 6 x 2l Coke bottles. Several of the bottles went more
than 100m across the ground. (most just bounced harmlessly)

[GC[_2_]]

On 15/07/2011 00:02, John Smith wrote:
> Bill D wrote:
>> BTW, I think Mythbusters had a program on what happens if you break
>> the valve off a high pressure cylinder. IIRC, reality didn't quite
>> live up to the urban myths.
>
> Actually, it did:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejEJGNLTo84

....and I know the fairing is composite but it also made a 5ft x 4ft hole
in the 747's pressure hull after going through the main cabin floor twice.

http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/qantas-jets-exploding-oxygen-cylinder-remains-a-mystery-20101122-183aj.html

GC