The rudder waggle signal does not work

[Pat Russell[_2_]]

The towplane rudder waggle signal has done more harm than good. We
have spent at least ten years trying to educate our pilots about this
signal, and we have failed. It is time we got rid of the signal.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20110715X11650&key=1

-Pat

[Dan Marotta]

So... What would you have the tow pilot do, release the glider or,
possibly, crash into the trees? Either way, the glider is down.

I've been away from soaring for 9 of the previous 10 years, but it's my
recollection that the rudder wag was not an official signal - only a
suggestion. Maybe it should be made an official signal and tested on BFRs
and check rides.

"Pat Russell" > wrote in message
...
> The towplane rudder waggle signal has done more harm than good. We
> have spent at least ten years trying to educate our pilots about this
> signal, and we have failed. It is time we got rid of the signal.
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20110715X11650&key=1
>
> -Pat

[Tony[_5_]]

On Jul 22, 7:55*am, Pat Russell > wrote:
> The towplane rudder waggle signal has done more harm than good. *We
> have spent at least ten years trying to educate our pilots about this
> signal, and we have failed. *It is time we got rid of the signal.
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20110715X11650&key=1
>
> -Pat

This accident is very tragic, no doubt.

RE: Rudder Waggle,

how do you know it has not done more good than harm? the good that has
come from the rudder waggle signal is not documented in NTSB reports.
Without a signal what is the towpilot to do when the brakes are out on
the glider and the combo is not climbing? release the glider? if that
is the case we might as well keep the signal. If the glider releases
there is no difference but if they remember the signal disaster may be
diverted.

[Tony[_5_]]

The Rudder Waggle is part of the standard US Soaring signals.

http://www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/signals.html

[JJ Sinclair[_2_]]

On Jul 22, 5:55*am, Pat Russell > wrote:
> The towplane rudder waggle signal has done more harm than good. *We
> have spent at least ten years trying to educate our pilots about this
> signal, and we have failed. *It is time we got rid of the signal.
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20110715X11650&key=1
>
> -Pat

Almost the same thing happened at Minden a few years back, with the
same results......one dead, one seriously injured! Time to ALL get
radios and use them! My best friend collided with a tow plane in the
pattern..................the tow ship didn't have a radio, so he
didn't hear that a glider was trying to land on the same runway at the
same time! Refuse to take a tow with a tug that isn't equipped with a
working radio and do a quick 'com-check', before hooking up to your
tug. We all know what can (will) go wrong: Dead battery, Wrong
frequency, Squelch not set, Radio not on. Klem Bowman died because he
was on the wrong frequency! Don't wait for the FAA or SSA to do
something, they probably will never get the message. It's your life,
act accordingly.
JJ

[Gary Boggs]

Did they not have radios? Over the years I have collected many
stories of accidents that almost happened and at some point during the
story I have to add, "Oh, and back then we did not have radios."
Every glider should have a radio and a PPT on the stick!

Boggs

>
> how do you know it has not done more good than harm? the good that has
> come from the rudder waggle signal is not documented in NTSB reports.
> Without a signal what is the towpilot to do when the brakes are out on
> the glider and the combo is not climbing? release the glider? if that
> is the case we might as well keep the signal. *If the glider releases
> there is no difference but if they remember the signal disaster may be
> diverted.

[Frank Whiteley]

I like radios. However, the one time I really needed it due to a
release failure, the tow pilot did not respond (tow plane from another
club and maybe no radio or different frequency, my bad I should have
checked before taking the tow) to radio calls. Nor did he respond to
my flying out to the side and rocking wings.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/2011/07/congress-should-tell-faa-heed-glider-warnings

I'm just curious about the nine fatalities mentioned due to
'commercial' and glider collisions. Anyone have a list?

Frank Whiteley

On Jul 22, 8:18*am, GARY BOGGS > wrote:
> Did they not have radios? *Over the years I have collected many
> stories of accidents that almost happened and at some point during the
> story I have to add, "Oh, and back then we did not have radios."
> Every glider should have a radio and a PPT on the stick!
>
> Boggs
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > how do you know it has not done more good than harm? the good that has
> > come from the rudder waggle signal is not documented in NTSB reports.
> > Without a signal what is the towpilot to do when the brakes are out on
> > the glider and the combo is not climbing? release the glider? if that
> > is the case we might as well keep the signal. *If the glider releases
> > there is no difference but if they remember the signal disaster may be
> > diverted.

[150flivver]

Our regular glider DPE asks me to fan my rudder at 1000 feet AGL
during a checkride to see if the glider pilot candidate understands
what the signal means. We do it at 1000 feet close in to the field so
that if he mistakenly releases, he can make a normal pattern and
land. Our instructors are good at ensuring glider students get to see
the rudder wag and the waveoff during their training.

Radios are primary for communicating between the glider and towplane
but the battery in the glider is subject to petering out so the visual
signals are there as a backup.

[RL]

What Gary said… Flying a glider without direct tow plane radio
communication is sheer foolishness. With today’s radio/battery
technology, or at minimum a handheld w/ PTT, there is zero excuse for
not having every glider and tow plane equipped with a radio. We would
never allow a glider to launch from our airport without a working
radio and contact with the towplane.

In the case of open dive brakes, the often misinterpreted and
ambiguous rudder waggle becomes replaced by a simple radio call and
the problem goes away with no guessing on either end of the string.
There is little chance the FAA will address the issue, so here’s a
controversial thought… maybe we should encourage insurance companies
to “adjust” their rates based on having a radio on board… that will
get the anti-progress crowd fired up!

Bob

[Bill D]

On Jul 22, 8:38*am, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
> I like radios. *However, the one time I really needed it due to a
> release failure, the tow pilot did not respond (tow plane from another
> club and maybe no radio or different frequency, my bad I should have
> checked before taking the tow) to radio calls. *Nor did he respond to
> my flying out to the side and rocking wings.
>
> http://washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/2011/07/congress-should-tell-fa...
>
> I'm just curious about the nine fatalities mentioned due to
> 'commercial' and glider collisions. *Anyone have a list?
>
> Frank Whiteley
>
> On Jul 22, 8:18*am, GARY BOGGS > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Did they not have radios? *Over the years I have collected many
> > stories of accidents that almost happened and at some point during the
> > story I have to add, "Oh, and back then we did not have radios."
> > Every glider should have a radio and a PPT on the stick!
>
> > Boggs
>
> > > how do you know it has not done more good than harm? the good that has
> > > come from the rudder waggle signal is not documented in NTSB reports.
> > > Without a signal what is the towpilot to do when the brakes are out on
> > > the glider and the combo is not climbing? release the glider? if that
> > > is the case we might as well keep the signal. *If the glider releases
> > > there is no difference but if they remember the signal disaster may be
> > > diverted.

IIRC, the rudder wag signal was was introduced because radio proved
unreliable in critical situations! IMHO, if tow pilots can be taught
the right signals, so can glider pilots. Time to tighten up on FAR
Section 61.56 flight reviews.

[glidergeek]

On Jul 22, 5:55*am, Pat Russell > wrote:
> The towplane rudder waggle signal has done more harm than good. *We
> have spent at least ten years trying to educate our pilots about this
> signal, and we have failed. *It is time we got rid of the signal.
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20110715X11650&key=1
>
> -Pat

Worked for me, shortly after taking off from Crystal several years ago
the tow plane waggled his rudder, looking at the wings I noticed
spoilers open. No radios there but I agree that this is the 21st
century and radio communication is cheap now. Now if he had of rocked
his wings that means get off or I'm going to dump you.

[T8]

On Jul 22, 8:55*am, Pat Russell > wrote:
> The towplane rudder waggle signal has done more harm than good. *We
> have spent at least ten years trying to educate our pilots about this
> signal, and we have failed. *It is time we got rid of the signal.
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20110715X11650&key=1
>
> -Pat

maybe it doesn't work because it's never taught, except out of a book.

I've never seen this practiced anywhere, ever. I suggest CFIG
instruct student to open spoilers on tow at safe altitude (smoothly,
please), tow pilot (briefed ahead of time) gives the rudder wag when
he notices. We practice wave offs from time to time, we can do this
too.

Radios are good. Reliance on the radio is foolish. They are by far
the most unreliable pieces of equipment we use.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

[Bill D]

On Jul 22, 9:01*am, RL > wrote:
> What Gary said… Flying a glider without direct tow plane radio
> communication is sheer foolishness. With today’s radio/battery
> technology, or at minimum a handheld w/ PTT, there is zero excuse for
> not having every glider and tow plane equipped with a radio. *We would
> never allow a glider to launch from our airport without a working
> radio and contact with the towplane.
>
> In the case of open dive brakes, the often misinterpreted and
> ambiguous rudder waggle becomes replaced by a simple radio call and
> the problem goes away with no guessing on either end of the string.
> There is little chance the FAA will address the issue, so here’s a
> controversial thought… maybe we should encourage insurance companies
> to “adjust” their rates based on having a radio on board… that will
> get the anti-progress crowd fired up!
>
> Bob

I don't disagree with RL in any way. However, AM simplex aviation
radio is an anachronism dating from before WW2 which has real
limitations. Every procedure in aviation has backups for radio
communication failure including tower light signals and IFR
communications failures among others. We're no different.

For aviation radio to work it must be:
1. Turned on. (Battery charged)
2. Set to right frequency.
3. Squelch set correctly.
4. Volume set correctly.
5. Selected frequency free of interfering radio traffic - including
that from the station you're trying to contact.

There's a lot of room for radio communications to fail in a critical
moment. Even with radios, we still need the rudder wag signal as a
backup - and pilots have to know it. If you don't, you're going to
bust your next checkride or Flight Review.

[Ramy]

On Jul 22, 9:28*am, T8 > wrote:
> On Jul 22, 8:55*am, Pat Russell > wrote:
>
> > The towplane rudder waggle signal has done more harm than good. *We
> > have spent at least ten years trying to educate our pilots about this
> > signal, and we have failed. *It is time we got rid of the signal.
>
> >http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20110715X11650&key=1
>
> > -Pat
>
> maybe it doesn't work because it's never taught, except out of a book.
>
> I've never seen this practiced anywhere, ever. *I suggest CFIG
> instruct student to open spoilers on tow at safe altitude (smoothly,
> please), tow pilot (briefed ahead of time) gives the rudder wag when
> he notices. *We practice wave offs from time to time, we can do this
> too.
>
> Radios are good. *Reliance on the radio is foolish. *They are by far
> the most unreliable pieces of equipment we use.
>
> -Evan Ludeman / T8

Repeating what I wrote in the other thread:

Folks, the problem is not just lack of knowledge or practice, it is
the human nature of confusion and tunnel vision under stress! Imagine
you are on tow and barely climbing (since your spoilers are out),
your first thought is that something is wrong with the tow plane, and
once you see the tow pilot waggle the rudder (which may also cause the
wings to rock a little), I bet over 90% of pilots will release, even
if they just practiced this manuver a week ago. There are many
examples confirming this, luckily not all of them resulted in
accidents.
Bottom line: Use radios! If this doesn't work, do not waggle rudders
until at safe altitude, unless the tow plane can not climb at all.

Ramy

[Jim Meade]

I think the standard and enforced use of signals is the best way all
around. Too many times when things get busy, radios or mikes are
dropped, misplaced, tuned off frequency or you name it.
Too many clubs start introducing their own idiosyncratic signals.
Standardize them.
But what do I know? MSL seems logical to me, but some insist on AGL.
Sometimes when reading these threads, especially if one is an
infrequent follower, one comes away with the impression, "I'm glad I'm
not flying with him" followed very quickly with "I'm glad he's not
flying with me". Lots of emotion out there.
Leave the FAA out of things.

[Bill D]

On Jul 22, 11:14*am, Ramy > wrote:

> Folks, the problem is not just lack of knowledge or practice,

Sorry, that's EXACTLY what it is. Blaming human psychology is a cop
out.

Learning to fly is overcoming panic reactions and misguided natural
instincts.

[T8]

On Jul 22, 1:33*pm, Bill D > wrote:
> On Jul 22, 11:14*am, Ramy > wrote:
>
> > Folks, the problem is not just lack of knowledge or practice,
>
> Sorry, that's EXACTLY what it is. *Blaming human psychology is a cop
> out.
>
> Learning to fly is overcoming panic reactions and misguided natural
> instincts.

Thread winner, right there.

-T8

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jul 22, 9:53*am, Bill D > wrote:
> On Jul 22, 9:01*am, RL > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > What Gary said… Flying a glider without direct tow plane radio
> > communication is sheer foolishness. With today’s radio/battery
> > technology, or at minimum a handheld w/ PTT, there is zero excuse for
> > not having every glider and tow plane equipped with a radio. *We would
> > never allow a glider to launch from our airport without a working
> > radio and contact with the towplane.
>
> > In the case of open dive brakes, the often misinterpreted and
> > ambiguous rudder waggle becomes replaced by a simple radio call and
> > the problem goes away with no guessing on either end of the string.
> > There is little chance the FAA will address the issue, so here’s a
> > controversial thought… maybe we should encourage insurance companies
> > to “adjust” their rates based on having a radio on board… that will
> > get the anti-progress crowd fired up!
>
> > Bob
>
> I don't disagree with RL in any way. *However, AM simplex aviation
> radio is an anachronism dating from before WW2 which has real
> limitations. *Every procedure in aviation has backups for radio
> communication failure including tower light signals and IFR
> communications failures among others. *We're no different.
>
> For aviation radio to work it must be:
> 1. Turned on. (Battery charged)
> 2. Set to right frequency.
> 3. Squelch set correctly.
> 4. Volume set correctly.
> 5. Selected frequency free of interfering radio traffic - including
> that from the station you're trying to contact.
>
> There's a lot of room for radio communications to fail in a critical
> moment. *Even with radios, we still need the rudder wag signal as a
> backup - and pilots have to know it. *If you don't, you're going to
> bust your next checkride or Flight Review.

There is no excuse for gliders or tow planes not to have radios but
that will never be infallible and here is also no excuse for tow and
glider pilots not to be proficient with the signals. I'd hope the
radio is always the tool of first use however.

But to emphasize the radio does have limitations I'll add these issues
-

o Properly installed with a good well positioned speaker or use of a
headset.

o Environmental noise appropriately managed (e.g. noisy side vents
that an interfere with listening). (Bumper's quiet vent kit helps if
you want to keep the vent scoop open on tow).

o Audio conflicts in the cockpit e.g. passenger/co-pilot/instructor
speaking at the same time.

o Use of confusing speech/phraseology, so even if the message is heard
it is not quickly understood. Whats are tow pilots expected to say on
the radio if spoilers appear deployed where you fly?

---

I'd like to always see careful use even of the radio e.g. tow to a
safe location/altitude if at all possible if spoilers are deployed -
before even using the radio which in itself could cause confusion and
a unintended release. And when made make it a very clear radio call
with the glider call-sign and "check spoilers" If that fails then
rudder waggle.

Darryl

[tstock]

On Jul 22, 8:55*am, Pat Russell > wrote:
> The towplane rudder waggle signal has done more harm than good. *We
> have spent at least ten years trying to educate our pilots about this
> signal, and we have failed. *It is time we got rid of the signal.
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20110715X11650&key=1
>
> -Pat

Seems pretty clear to me, have never gotten them confused.

But then maybe it's because I'm a diver. The "problem" hand signal
resembles the rocking of wings, not the wagging of the tail.

[tstock]

Did they not have radios? *Over the years I have collected many
> stories of accidents that almost happened and at some point during the
> story I have to add, "Oh, and back then we did not have radios."
> Every glider should have a radio and a PPT on the stick!
>
> Boggs

A couple of gliders I've flown were so noisy I couldn't even
understand my handheld. I turned it off, it was functioning only as a
noisy distraction.

[Ramy]

On Jul 22, 10:41*am, T8 > wrote:
> On Jul 22, 1:33*pm, Bill D > wrote:
>
> > On Jul 22, 11:14*am, Ramy > wrote:
>
> > > Folks, the problem is not just lack of knowledge or practice,
>
> > Sorry, that's EXACTLY what it is. *Blaming human psychology is a cop
> > out.
>
> > Learning to fly is overcoming panic reactions and misguided natural
> > instincts.
>
> Thread winner, right there.
>
> -T8

No one argue against practice, but against a signal which does not
work in most cases and kills people. Yes, part of the solution is to
practice everything over and over again, perhaps every flight instead
of doing actual soaring, but why not use better methods to adress this
situation, such as radios? Every tow plane and every glider should
have an operating radio.
And if a radio call is not solving the problem, continue towing to a
safe altitude before giving a signal. In most situations a tow plane
can continue climbing slowly even with open spoilers. If this is not
the case, it is probably a real emergency and there may not be enough
time even for a signal.

Ramy

[Bill D]

On Jul 22, 1:56*pm, Ramy > wrote:
> On Jul 22, 10:41*am, T8 > wrote:
>
> > On Jul 22, 1:33*pm, Bill D > wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 22, 11:14*am, Ramy > wrote:
>
> > > > Folks, the problem is not just lack of knowledge or practice,
>
> > > Sorry, that's EXACTLY what it is. *Blaming human psychology is a cop
> > > out.
>
> > > Learning to fly is overcoming panic reactions and misguided natural
> > > instincts.
>
> > Thread winner, right there.
>
> > -T8
>
> No one argue against practice, but against a signal which does not
> work in most cases and kills people. Yes, part of the solution is to
> practice everything over and over again, perhaps every flight instead
> of doing actual soaring, but why not use better methods to adress this
> situation, such as radios? Every tow plane and every glider should
> have an operating radio.
> And if a radio call is not solving the problem, continue towing to a
> safe altitude before giving a signal. In most situations a tow plane
> can continue climbing slowly even with open spoilers. If this is not
> the case, it is probably a real emergency and there may not be enough
> time even for a signal.
>
> Ramy

The signal works perfectly - it can always be given and seen. If the
human receiving the signal doesn't understand it, that's not the
signal's fault. If the human can't understand a simple visual signal,
why would anyone suppose they could operate a radio correctly?

I can't understand Japanese. That doesn't mean Japanese is an
unworkable language, it just means I can't understand it.
Fortunately, so far, my life hasn't depended on understanding
Japanese. My life certainly can depend on understanding the rudder
wag so I damn well understand it.

The real mystery, in fact the only mystery, is why anyone would pilot
a glider when they don't understand a life saving signal.

[Ramy]

On Jul 22, 1:36*pm, Bill D > wrote:
> On Jul 22, 1:56*pm, Ramy > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 22, 10:41*am, T8 > wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 22, 1:33*pm, Bill D > wrote:
>
> > > > On Jul 22, 11:14*am, Ramy > wrote:
>
> > > > > Folks, the problem is not just lack of knowledge or practice,
>
> > > > Sorry, that's EXACTLY what it is. *Blaming human psychology is a cop
> > > > out.
>
> > > > Learning to fly is overcoming panic reactions and misguided natural
> > > > instincts.
>
> > > Thread winner, right there.
>
> > > -T8
>
> > No one argue against practice, but against a signal which does not
> > work in most cases and kills people. Yes, part of the solution is to
> > practice everything over and over again, perhaps every flight instead
> > of doing actual soaring, but why not use better methods to adress this
> > situation, such as radios? Every tow plane and every glider should
> > have an operating radio.
> > And if a radio call is not solving the problem, continue towing to a
> > safe altitude before giving a signal. In most situations a tow plane
> > can continue climbing slowly even with open spoilers. If this is not
> > the case, it is probably a real emergency and there may not be enough
> > time even for a signal.
>
> > Ramy
>
> The signal works perfectly - it can always be given and seen. *If the
> human receiving the signal doesn't understand it, that's not the
> signal's fault. *If the human can't understand a simple visual signal,
> why would anyone suppose they could operate a radio correctly?
>
> I can't understand Japanese. *That doesn't mean Japanese is an
> unworkable language, it just means I can't understand it.
> Fortunately, so far, my life hasn't depended on understanding
> Japanese. *My life certainly can depend on understanding the rudder
> wag so I damn well understand it.
>
> The real mystery, in fact the only mystery, *is why anyone would pilot
> a glider when they don't understand a life saving signal.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Perhaps you are perfect, but most of us are human, and human makes
mistakes with confusing signals under a stressfull situation.
The statistics confirms that.
Following your example, we don't use Japanese when talking on the
radio (in the US), although there is nothing wrong with Japanese,
right?
IMHO, those who believe that they are safe since they practice and
never make mistakes are at the highest risk of accidents.

Ramy

[vaughn[_3_]]

"Dan Marotta" > wrote in message
...
> So... What would you have the tow pilot do, release the glider or, possibly,
> crash into the trees? Either way, the glider is down.

Require radios and use them. Compared to gliders, they are dirt cheap.

>
> I've been away from soaring for 9 of the previous 10 years, but it's my
> recollection that the rudder wag was not an official signal - only a
> suggestion. Maybe it should be made an official signal and tested on BFRs and
> check rides.
>
It's been a few years since I was an active CFIG, but we tested the rudder
waggle on every flight review. I don't recall anyone failing to release when
they got the waggle except for a few cases when they were briefed immediately
before the flight.. As far as I can see, the signal is well intended, but a
complete failure.

Vaughn

[JJ Sinclair[_2_]]

> The signal works perfectly - it can always be given and seen. *If the
> human receiving the signal doesn't understand it, that's not the
> signal's fault. *If the human can't understand a simple visual signal,
> why would anyone suppose they could operate a radio correctly?

Over the years the rudder wag has been used to relay many things.I
once tried to steer a tow plane and got a rudder wag (meaning NO, I
will deliver you where I know the best lift can be found). For many
years, the rudder wag was used to indicate "Get off now dummy, you're
in a thermal". These little memories never go away, they are always
there hiding in little dusty corners of our minds. If you have left
the spoilers unlocked, the tow won't be going well. You know something
is wrong...................when you see a rudder wag, your memory can
pump out a bad snap reaction. This is exactly what happened to Joe at
Minden. The tow wasn't going well, he knew something was wrong and
probably suspected the tow planes engine wasn't putting out enough
power. Joe had a radio, but I suspect the battery had gone dead
sometime during the morning pattern tows. After repeatedly calling for
Joe to close his spoilers and just after clearing the wires at the end
of 30, the tow pilot gave the rudder wag. A CFI with thousands of
hours instructing, pulled the plug, turned 180 left and flew into the
wires. This accident should never have happened, but the point is, IT
DID!
How can we prevent it reaccurring?
+ Always do a com-check before every takeoff.
+ Never give the rudder wag below 1000 feet
+ Learn and use the proper signals.
My club is religious about com-checks and the tow pilot won't start
the tow until he gets a Canopy & Spoilers Closed & Locked, slack out,
JJ's ready for takeoff.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jul 22, 2:46*pm, "vaughn" > wrote:
> "Dan Marotta" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > So... *What would you have the tow pilot do, release the glider or, possibly,
> > crash into the trees? *Either way, the glider is down.
>
> Require radios and use them. *Compared to gliders, they are dirt cheap.
>
>
>
> > I've been away from soaring for 9 of the previous 10 years, but it's my
> > recollection that the rudder wag was not an official signal - only a
> > suggestion. *Maybe it should be made an official signal and tested on BFRs and
> > check rides.
>
> It's been a few years since I was an active CFIG, but we tested the rudder
> waggle on every flight review. *I don't recall anyone failing to release when
> they got the waggle except for a few cases when they were briefed immediately
> before the flight.. *As far as I can see, the signal is well intended, but a
> complete failure.
>
> Vaughn

Uh I assume that was an unintended typo and you meant failing to
release when they got the rock-off signal?

Darryl

[Greg Arnold[_2_]]

>> The signal works perfectly - it can always be given and seen. If the
>> human receiving the signal doesn't understand it, that's not the
>> signal's fault. If the human can't understand a simple visual signal,
>> why would anyone suppose they could operate a radio correctly?
>>

>
> Perhaps you are perfect, but most of us are human, and human makes
> mistakes with confusing signals under a stressfull situation.
> The statistics confirms that.



Ah, the eternal argument between the Moralists ("Damn it, people
shouldn't make mistakes, so we should design our systems on the
assumption that people do not make mistakes"), and the Pragmatists
("People make mistakes all the time, so our systems must be designed to
minimize mistakes and their effects").

[Ramy]

On Jul 22, 2:53*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> On Jul 22, 2:46*pm, "vaughn" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Dan Marotta" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > > So... *What would you have the tow pilot do, release the glider or, possibly,
> > > crash into the trees? *Either way, the glider is down.
>
> > Require radios and use them. *Compared to gliders, they are dirt cheap.
>
> > > I've been away from soaring for 9 of the previous 10 years, but it's my
> > > recollection that the rudder wag was not an official signal - only a
> > > suggestion. *Maybe it should be made an official signal and tested on BFRs and
> > > check rides.
>
> > It's been a few years since I was an active CFIG, but we tested the rudder
> > waggle on every flight review. *I don't recall anyone failing to release when
> > they got the waggle except for a few cases when they were briefed immediately
> > before the flight.. *As far as I can see, the signal is well intended, but a
> > complete failure.
>
> > Vaughn
>
> Uh I assume that was an unintended typo and you meant failing to
> release when they got the rock-off signal?
>
> Darryl- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

No I believe he meant that everyone released by mistake...
And this was not even under real emergency pressure.
Exactly my point.

Ramy

[[email protected]]

Isn't everyone missing the cause of this accident and ones like it?

Written, Pre-take-off checklist is all that is needed to prevent this
accident from ever happening. It is the most basic of pilot
duties........


The pilot made at least 5 obvious (easily preventable) errors leading
up to the accident.

1. preflight inspection (usually states spoilers/flaps to take off
position)
2. pre take off check list..."spoilers closed and locked"
3. During tow, Left hand should be on, near, behind, spoiler handle to
sense unwanted spoiler opening
4. Situational awareness of poor climb should result in immediate
spoiler check
5. Pilot should be familiar with signals


Pilot should also include "enmergency plan" in take off check
list ....planning for emergencies such as rope break, tow plane wave
off signal, canopy opening, tow plane loss of power, and spoilers
opening (and signal form tow plane)....none of these should cause any
major concern if they happen...If the pilot is properly prepared..

Cookie

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jul 22, 3:49*pm, "
> wrote:
> Isn't everyone missing the cause of this accident and ones like it?
>
> Written, Pre-take-off checklist is all that is needed to prevent this
> accident from ever happening. *It is the most basic of pilot
> duties........
>
> The pilot made at least 5 obvious (easily preventable) errors leading
> up to the accident.
>
> 1. preflight inspection (usually states spoilers/flaps to take off
> position)
> 2. pre take off check list..."spoilers closed and locked"
> 3. During tow, Left hand should be on, near, behind, spoiler handle to
> sense unwanted spoiler opening
> 4. Situational awareness of poor climb should result in immediate
> spoiler check
> 5. Pilot should be familiar with signals
>
> Pilot should also include "enmergency plan" in take off check
> list ....planning for emergencies such as rope break, tow plane wave
> off signal, canopy opening, tow plane loss of power, and spoilers
> opening (and signal form tow plane)....none of these should cause any
> major concern if they happen...If the pilot is properly prepared..
>
> Cookie

I appreciate the comment, but broadening the discussion is more a
distraction to this than a help. One way of making sure something
really broken is not fixed is to keep making the problem bigger. Bad
things happen and when they do there needs to be a mechanism,
hopefully a practiced plan of action, to handle them. The causes of
these fatalities is really releasing low/in an a bad position. Fix
that problem and people won't get killed. In may cases (with powerful
enough tow planes) they might just be embarrassed and the glider pilot
ends up having to buy the tow pilot a beer that night because the tow
plane had to struggle to tow them for a while.

We all need the radio and signal procedure chain to work as
effectively as it can possibly do. That includes getting radios
properly installed in gliders and tow planes and properly using them,
tow pilots being trained to think when to most safely to use a radio
and signal followup if needed, and us community of glider pilots to
get our heads out of our collective asses on the broad lack of
proficiency with in-flight signals.

Darryl

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jul 22, 3:34*pm, Greg Arnold > wrote:
> >> The signal works perfectly - it can always be given and seen. *If the
> >> human receiving the signal doesn't understand it, that's not the
> >> signal's fault. *If the human can't understand a simple visual signal,
> >> why would anyone suppose they could operate a radio correctly?
>
> > Perhaps you are perfect, but most of us are human, and human makes
> > mistakes with confusing signals under a stressfull situation.
> > The statistics confirms that.
>
> Ah, the eternal argument between the Moralists ("Damn it, people
> shouldn't make mistakes, so we should design our systems on the
> assumption that people do not make mistakes"), and the Pragmatists
> ("People make mistakes all the time, so our systems must be designed to
> minimize mistakes and their effects").

Yes, and the pragmatists know the moralists are wrong. :-)

Darryl

[Bill D]

On Jul 22, 4:34*pm, Greg Arnold > wrote:
> >> The signal works perfectly - it can always be given and seen. *If the
> >> human receiving the signal doesn't understand it, that's not the
> >> signal's fault. *If the human can't understand a simple visual signal,
> >> why would anyone suppose they could operate a radio correctly?
>
> > Perhaps you are perfect, but most of us are human, and human makes
> > mistakes with confusing signals under a stressfull situation.
> > The statistics confirms that.
>
> Ah, the eternal argument between the Moralists ("Damn it, people
> shouldn't make mistakes, so we should design our systems on the
> assumption that people do not make mistakes"), and the Pragmatists
> ("People make mistakes all the time, so our systems must be designed to
> minimize mistakes and their effects").

Nothing to do with morals or pragmatism but just people not learning
what they need to know to stay alive - which is very frustrating.

Radios are fine and I advocate them - but they can fail for a lot of
reasons. We will always need a backup visual signal and we have a
good one. Instructors need to do their job so pilots recognize it
when they see it. From now on it's the first question on a Flight
Review - if the pilot doesn't know the right answer, my signature
isn't going in their logbook.

No, I'm not perfect, I just read the manual - but that may be unusual.

[Ramy]

On Jul 22, 4:42*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> On Jul 22, 3:34*pm, Greg Arnold > wrote:
>
> > >> The signal works perfectly - it can always be given and seen. *If the
> > >> human receiving the signal doesn't understand it, that's not the
> > >> signal's fault. *If the human can't understand a simple visual signal,
> > >> why would anyone suppose they could operate a radio correctly?
>
> > > Perhaps you are perfect, but most of us are human, and human makes
> > > mistakes with confusing signals under a stressfull situation.
> > > The statistics confirms that.
>
> > Ah, the eternal argument between the Moralists ("Damn it, people
> > shouldn't make mistakes, so we should design our systems on the
> > assumption that people do not make mistakes"), and the Pragmatists
> > ("People make mistakes all the time, so our systems must be designed to
> > minimize mistakes and their effects").
>
> Yes, and the pragmatists know the moralists are wrong. :-)
>
> Darryl

Right on Darryl :)
And as the following post demonstrates, moralists don't realize they
are wrong even when you show them the facts and explain over and
over..
I am happy to be a pragmatist, I think pragmatists are safer since
they know their limitations

[vaughn[_3_]]

"Darryl Ramm" > wrote in message
...
> It's been a few years since I was an active CFIG, but we tested the rudder
> waggle on every flight review. I don't recall anyone failing to release when
> they got the waggle except for a few cases when they were briefed immediately
> before the flight.. As far as I can see, the signal is well intended, but a
> complete failure.
>
> Vaughn

Uh I assume that was an unintended typo and you meant failing to
release when they got the rock-off signal?

Nope, I meant just what I said. Virtually all pilots did the wrong thing,
(released when the got the rudder waggle) unless they were briefed right before
the flight and knew what was going to happen. We would typically do this as an
excercise on the first "pattern" flight of the flight review. On the ground, we
would then have a productive discussion about that signal

Vaughn

[CLewis95]

For what it's worth I offer this suggestion to soaring pilots and
CFIGs:

In light of the common confusion over the "wing-rock vs rudder-wag"
signals, as a CFIG I have taught to think of the Rudder-Wag as a "SLAP
IN THE FACE" signal to wake up, pay attention, ... something is
wrong. The "visual" of a rudder slapping your face seems to catch
on. Pilots that I have given that memory aide to seem to remember it
clearly, hopefuly reducing the chance of confusing it with the
"Release" signal in a real emergency.

Please consider that approach.

Rudder-Wag = "SLAP IN THE FACE"

Curt Lewis - 95
Genesis 2
SGS 1-26B

[Pat Russell[_2_]]

Interesting discussion, but I think that most of the commenters have
missed the point.

The issue isn't the failure of the towpilot or the glider pilot to do
the right thing. And it certainly isn't about radios.

The issue is why, after all these years, have we failed to teach
something that seems so basic? And, make no mistake, we have
certainly failed. The towplane rudder waggle has been directly
responsible for two fatalities!

I can think of only two explanations:

1. We have suddenly lost the ability to teach tow signals, or

2. Creating a second "urgent" message from the towpilot was a bad
idea. Humans don't deal well with urgent messages.

The latter seems more plausible.

It's time to drop the rudder waggle from the list of standard
signals. It seemed like a good idea at the time, but experience has
proven otherwise. We should go back to the old way of dealing with
the situation: drag the glider up to circuit height and release it
overhead. If that isn't possible, just release the glider. Granted,
it's not a very satisfactory plan, but it sure beats suffering these
tragic, stupid, avoidable fatal accidents.

-Pat

[T[_2_]]

On Jul 22, 6:38*pm, CLewis95 > wrote:
> For what it's worth I offer this suggestion to soaring pilots and
> CFIGs:
>
> In light of the common confusion over the "wing-rock vs rudder-wag"
> signals, as a CFIG I have taught to think of the Rudder-Wag as a "SLAP
> IN THE FACE" signal to wake up, pay attention, ... something is
> wrong. *The "visual" of a rudder slapping your face seems to catch
> on. *Pilots that I have given that memory aide to seem to remember it
> clearly, hopefuly reducing the chance of confusing it with the
> "Release" signal in a real emergency.
>
> Please consider that approach.
>
> Rudder-Wag = "SLAP IN THE FACE"
>
> Curt Lewis - 95
> Genesis 2
> SGS 1-26B

I like that! SLAP IN THE FACE! PAY ATTENTION! May I use that?

We have radios, radios fail or get "walked on" when you need them.
We teach "rudder wag" above 250 ft, just in case the student makes the
wrong decision and releases.
We also teach the "wave off". Our DPE has been known to pre coordinate
with the tow pilot for a signal during a check ride.

T -CFIG

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jul 22, 6:34*pm, "vaughn" > wrote:
> "Darryl Ramm" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > It's been a few years since I was an active CFIG, but we tested the rudder
> > waggle on every flight review. I don't recall anyone failing to release when
> > they got the waggle except for a few cases when they were briefed immediately
> > before the flight.. As far as I can see, the signal is well intended, but a
> > complete failure.
>
> > Vaughn
>
> Uh I assume that was an unintended typo and you meant failing to
> release when they got the rock-off signal?
>
> Nope, I meant just what I said. *Virtually all pilots did the wrong thing,
> (released when the got the rudder waggle) unless they were briefed right before
> the flight and knew what was going to happen. *We would typically do this as an
> excercise on the first "pattern" flight of the flight review. *On the ground, we
> would then have a productive discussion about that signal
>
> Vaughn

Thanks. Jeez that is sad. I totally advocate the tow pilot doing
nothing if low and that is possible, then radio, then rudder fan if
needed....

Darryl

[Steve Koerner]

The most fundamental problem is that we invented too many towplane
signals. Consider if there were only one signal, then there could
never be this fatal problem of misinterpretation. The signal should
simply be "tow problem". If I get a "tow problem" signal from the
tug, I look to see if the tow problem is coming from my end of the
rope (check dive brakes). If it is, I immediately correct the
problem. If the tow problem is not at my end of the rope, it must be
at the tugs end. In which case, I wait until I am certain that I can
make a safe return to the field and then I release.

What need have we for more than one signal?

[Ventus_a]

On Jul 22, 1:33*pm, Bill D wrote:
On Jul 22, 11:14*am, Ramy wrote:

Folks, the problem is not just lack of knowledge or practice,

Sorry, that's EXACTLY what it is. *Blaming human psychology is a cop
out.

Learning to fly is overcoming panic reactions and misguided natural
instincts.

Thread winner, right there.

-T8

I'd second the above on both counts. In my time gliding I have seen all to often the emergency procedures glossed over and not properly and effectively trained UNTIL they become ingrained, automatic responses.

Colin

[Ventus_a]

;777652']"Dan Marotta" wrote in message
...
So... What would you have the tow pilot do, release the glider or, possibly,
crash into the trees? Either way, the glider is down.

Require radios and use them. Compared to gliders, they are dirt cheap.


I've been away from soaring for 9 of the previous 10 years, but it's my
recollection that the rudder wag was not an official signal - only a
suggestion. Maybe it should be made an official signal and tested on BFRs and
check rides.

It's been a few years since I was an active CFIG, but we tested the rudder
waggle on every flight review. I don't recall anyone failing to release when
they got the waggle except for a few cases when they were briefed immediately
before the flight.. As far as I can see, the signal is well intended, but a
complete failure.

Vaughn

Blaming the signal for the pilot doing the wrong thing is just like shooting the messenger. It's encumbent on the individual pilots to actually engage their brains and study and review different aspects of operating a sailplane safely.

If you only engage your brain when in the cockpit you are missing out on reviewing your own flight performances and missing the benefits of visualising and mentally rehearsing vital actions before they are needed.

Colin

[Ventus_a]

Isn't everyone missing the cause of this accident and ones like it?

Written, Pre-take-off checklist is all that is needed to prevent this
accident from ever happening. It is the most basic of pilot
duties........


The pilot made at least 5 obvious (easily preventable) errors leading
up to the accident.

1. preflight inspection (usually states spoilers/flaps to take off
position)
2. pre take off check list..."spoilers closed and locked"
3. During tow, Left hand should be on, near, behind, spoiler handle to
sense unwanted spoiler opening
4. Situational awareness of poor climb should result in immediate
spoiler check
5. Pilot should be familiar with signals


Pilot should also include "enmergency plan" in take off check
list ....planning for emergencies such as rope break, tow plane wave
off signal, canopy opening, tow plane loss of power, and spoilers
opening (and signal form tow plane)....none of these should cause any
major concern if they happen...If the pilot is properly prepared..

Cookie

Well said

It takes discipline to do all that and some people just don't do discipline well. It won't catch every problem or save everyone but it's better than not following a rigorous and proven procedure.

Airline flying for example is one of the safest forms of transport going and it is highly procedural.

I come from a place where we do CBSIFTCB as checks and the best thing that happened while I spent some years away from soaring was the additiion of E for Eventualities to the end of the checks to review briefly before the launch the 'what ifs'

Colin

[[email protected]]

On Jul 22, 7:39*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> On Jul 22, 3:49*pm, "
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > Isn't everyone missing the cause of this accident and ones like it?
>
> > Written, Pre-take-off checklist is all that is needed to prevent this
> > accident from ever happening. *It is the most basic of pilot
> > duties........
>
> > The pilot made at least 5 obvious (easily preventable) errors leading
> > up to the accident.
>
> > 1. preflight inspection (usually states spoilers/flaps to take off
> > position)
> > 2. pre take off check list..."spoilers closed and locked"
> > 3. During tow, Left hand should be on, near, behind, spoiler handle to
> > sense unwanted spoiler opening
> > 4. Situational awareness of poor climb should result in immediate
> > spoiler check
> > 5. Pilot should be familiar with signals
>
> > Pilot should also include "enmergency plan" in take off check
> > list ....planning for emergencies such as rope break, tow plane wave
> > off signal, canopy opening, tow plane loss of power, and spoilers
> > opening (and signal form tow plane)....none of these should cause any
> > major concern if they happen...If the pilot is properly prepared..
>
> > Cookie
>
> I appreciate the comment, but broadening the discussion is more a
> distraction to this than a help. One way of making sure something
> really broken is not fixed is to keep making the problem bigger. Bad
> things happen and when they do there needs to be a mechanism,
> hopefully a practiced plan of action, to handle them. The causes of
> these fatalities is really releasing low/in an a bad position. Fix
> that problem and people won't get killed. In may cases (with powerful
> enough tow planes) they might just be embarrassed and the glider pilot
> ends up having to buy the tow pilot a beer that night because the tow
> plane had to struggle to tow them for a while.
>
> We all need the radio and signal procedure chain to work as
> effectively as it can possibly do. That includes getting radios
> properly installed in gliders and tow planes and properly using them,
> tow pilots being trained to think when to most safely to use a radio
> and signal followup if needed, and us community of glider pilots to
> get our heads out of our collective asses on the broad lack of
> proficiency with in-flight signals.
>
> Darryl- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

You guys are simply amazing....

So far you have "blamed" the accident on

lack of radio

the rudder signal

The lack of good instruction

the topilots' use of the signal


everything to divert responsibility away from the glider pilot and on
to something/someone else

Cookie

[[email protected]]

On Jul 23, 5:21*am, "
> wrote:
> On Jul 22, 7:39*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 22, 3:49*pm, "
>
> > > wrote:
> > > Isn't everyone missing the cause of this accident and ones like it?
>
> > > Written, Pre-take-off checklist is all that is needed to prevent this
> > > accident from ever happening. *It is the most basic of pilot
> > > duties........
>
> > > The pilot made at least 5 obvious (easily preventable) errors leading
> > > up to the accident.
>
> > > 1. preflight inspection (usually states spoilers/flaps to take off
> > > position)
> > > 2. pre take off check list..."spoilers closed and locked"
> > > 3. During tow, Left hand should be on, near, behind, spoiler handle to
> > > sense unwanted spoiler opening
> > > 4. Situational awareness of poor climb should result in immediate
> > > spoiler check
> > > 5. Pilot should be familiar with signals
>
> > > Pilot should also include "enmergency plan" in take off check
> > > list ....planning for emergencies such as rope break, tow plane wave
> > > off signal, canopy opening, tow plane loss of power, and spoilers
> > > opening (and signal form tow plane)....none of these should cause any
> > > major concern if they happen...If the pilot is properly prepared..
>
> > > Cookie
>
> > I appreciate the comment, but broadening the discussion is more a
> > distraction to this than a help. One way of making sure something
> > really broken is not fixed is to keep making the problem bigger. Bad
> > things happen and when they do there needs to be a mechanism,
> > hopefully a practiced plan of action, to handle them. The causes of
> > these fatalities is really releasing low/in an a bad position. Fix
> > that problem and people won't get killed. In may cases (with powerful
> > enough tow planes) they might just be embarrassed and the glider pilot
> > ends up having to buy the tow pilot a beer that night because the tow
> > plane had to struggle to tow them for a while.
>
> > We all need the radio and signal procedure chain to work as
> > effectively as it can possibly do. That includes getting radios
> > properly installed in gliders and tow planes and properly using them,
> > tow pilots being trained to think when to most safely to use a radio
> > and signal followup if needed, and us community of glider pilots to
> > get our heads out of our collective asses on the broad lack of
> > proficiency with in-flight signals.
>
> > Darryl- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> You guys are simply amazing....
>
> So far you have "blamed" the accident on
>
> *lack of radio
>
> the rudder signal
>
> The lack of good instruction
>
> the topilots' use of the signal
>
> everything to divert responsibility away from the glider pilot and on
> to something/someone else
>
> Cookie- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Just re read.......not powerful enough tow plane is also a problem..

[[email protected]]

There are only two possible in-flight signals initiated by the tow
pilot.....wing rock, rudder waggle...that's it.

I learned these in about lesson two of my training and have remembered
them ever since . I teach these to my students and they seem to have
no trouble remembering. It's not hard.

To me, a visual signal is a far better form of communication than a
radio braodcast.

The visual signal is quick, simple, to the point, obvious, etc....

Somebody already stated the possible "possible problems with relying
on radio"...there are many....

The low tech solution wins out by far!


Cookie

[T8]

On Jul 23, 5:33*am, "
> wrote:

> I learned these in about lesson two of my training and have remembered
> them ever since . * I teach these to my students and they seem to have
> no trouble remembering. *It's not hard.
>
[...]
> The low tech solution wins out by far!
>
> Cookie

Right. And that part of the lesson might start out, "there are two
things the tow plane can signal you about, 1) something's wrong with
the tow plane, 2) something's wrong with your glider...."

This is simple as dirt.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

[T8]

On Jul 22, 10:18*pm, Pat Russell > wrote:

> The towplane rudder waggle has been directly
> responsible for two fatalities!

A typical aviation accident chain of events happens and you conclude
this? Really?

-Evan Ludemn / T8

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jul 23, 2:33*am, "
> wrote:
> There are only two possible in-flight signals initiated by the tow
> pilot.....wing rock, rudder waggle...that's it.
>
> I learned these in about lesson two of my training and have remembered
> them ever since . * I teach these to my students and they seem to have
> no trouble remembering. *It's not hard.
>
> To me, a visual signal is a far better form of communication than a
> radio braodcast.
>
> The visual signal is quick, simple, to the point, obvious, etc....
>
> Somebody already stated the possible "possible problems with relying
> on radio"...there are many....
>
> The low tech solution wins out by far!
>
> Cookie

The low tech solution is not "winning by far"-it's a blatant failure
and why we are talking about this.

It's great how things should be clear and should work. Except they are
not and don't and people are being repeatedly killed by the same
problem.

Darryl

[akiley]

A few thoughts.

Assuming any human has the potential to panic and become dumb during a
stressful situation, why don't we do what the airlines do? They
practice the emergency over and over until it is muscle memory and
becomes an "abnormal", not an emergency. How? Personally I think
Condor flight simulator can help a lot. After not soaring for a week,
I always use Condor to aerotow with strong crosswinds from various
direction. With full water it is very difficult. I release when I
get in trouble on the ground, and I talk to myself out loud. "No
remaining runway, field to the right, right 180 etc." I do all the
checklists out loud. Condor does a wing rock for release, so that
burned in pretty well. A sim set up with random failures helped me
with my multi rating. After the sim, I was always waiting for that
failure anticipating and expecting it to happen. I wish Condor could
be programmed for failures to help with safety like other home sims
can.

On the radio thing, I find it fairly hard to hear radios in gliders,
and I miss calls too often. Power planes with headsets are
wonderful. I'm considering some kind of headset that works for
soaring. (suggestions appreciated)

Many of us look at accidents and think "I would never do that", but
that's dangerous thinking. You have to train for the time when Mr.
Panic is at the helm. Aaron

[Walt Connelly]

You guys are simply amazing....

So far you have "blamed" the accident on

lack of radio

the rudder signal

The lack of good instruction

the topilots' use of the signal


everything to divert responsibility away from the glider pilot and on
to something/someone else

Cookie[/QUOTE]


Well, at least no one has blamed George Bush for this yet.

Walt

[[email protected]]

On Jul 23, 7:26*am, T8 > wrote:
> On Jul 23, 5:33*am, "
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > I learned these in about lesson two of my training and have remembered
> > them ever since . * I teach these to my students and they seem to have
> > no trouble remembering. *It's not hard.
>
> [...]
> > The low tech solution wins out by far!
>
> > Cookie
>
> Right. *And that part of the lesson might start out, "there are two
> things the tow plane can signal you about, 1) something's wrong with
> the tow plane, 2) something's wrong with your glider...."
>
> This is simple as dirt.
>
> -Evan Ludeman / T8

Love that way of thinking....makes it crystal clear...will use in
training from now on!


Cookie

[[email protected]]

On Jul 23, 7:34*am, T8 > wrote:
> On Jul 22, 10:18*pm, Pat Russell > wrote:
>
> > The towplane rudder waggle has been directly
> > responsible for two fatalities!


Not at all.......the responsibility for the two fatalities was the
pilots' failure to maintain closed spoilers during tow......Most
likely due to improper or no pre take off checklist....

Cookie

[[email protected]]

On Jul 23, 12:32*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> On Jul 23, 2:33*am, "
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > There are only two possible in-flight signals initiated by the tow
> > pilot.....wing rock, rudder waggle...that's it.
>
> > I learned these in about lesson two of my training and have remembered
> > them ever since . * I teach these to my students and they seem to have
> > no trouble remembering. *It's not hard.
>
> > To me, a visual signal is a far better form of communication than a
> > radio braodcast.
>
> > The visual signal is quick, simple, to the point, obvious, etc....
>
> > Somebody already stated the possible "possible problems with relying
> > on radio"...there are many....
>
> > The low tech solution wins out by far!
>
> > Cookie
>
> The low tech solution is not "winning by far"-it's a blatant failure
> and why we are talking about this.
>
> It's great how things should be clear and should work. Except they are
> not and don't and people are being repeatedly killed by the same
> problem.
>
> Darryl- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

The "signal" is not a failure nor the problem.....the pilot(s) who
were not familiar with the signal, after taking off with open
spoilers were the failure point(s).....


Cookie

[Free Flight 107]

I find it real easy, I just refuse to fly where there are no Aircraft
VHF radios in the tow planes, and the tow pilots know how to use them.
No problems on meaning of rudder waggle, to me it means "Ready to
commence Tow".

Real simple, real easy, really works. Many times when I was in
training I got behind a tow plane/pilot that was doing something I
certaintly didn't undderstand, like going downwind from the airport 5+
miles when it was howling, a simple radio transmission would have told
me he was "Looking for Lift" but in a L-13 he'd better take me an
extra 3,000 feet high to be sure I could get back! Since he didn't I
stasyed on till he finally came back to the airport area.

Oh, and for you sceptics on radios working, I always call the tow on
the grid to let him know who I am. If no answer, no flight until it's
remedied.

Wayne, The JayWalker

[Pat Russell[_2_]]

> So far you have "blamed" the accident on
> lack of radio
> the rudder signal
> The lack of good instruction
> the topilots' use of the signal
>
> everything to divert responsibility away from the glider pilot and on
> to something/someone else

By this logic, there's no such thing as a bad training program.

Assigning blame is off-topic.

It's not a question of blame. No one denies that the pilot is
responsible for all of his actions.

The issue is whether our national training program (as promoted by
SSF) contains an unforeseen flaw that is contributing to the accident
rate.

[Free Flight 107]

On Jul 24, 8:00*am, Pat Russell > wrote:
> > So far you have "blamed" the accident on
> > lack of radio
> > the rudder signal
> > The lack of good instruction
> > the topilots' use of the signal
>
> > everything to divert responsibility away from the glider pilot and on
> > to something/someone else
>
> By this logic, there's no such thing as a bad training program.
>
> Assigning blame is off-topic.
>
> It's not a question of blame. *No one denies that the pilot is
> responsible for all of his actions.
>
> The issue is whether our national training program (as promoted by
> SSF) contains an unforeseen flaw that is contributing to the accident
> rate.

I agree with you Pat, almost every GliderPort I've flown at has a
different view of how to run things and what's "Standard". Our
training is NOT STANDARDIZED throughout the US!! It should be, but
isn't.

Maybe this is a program the SSA & SSF should address and Certify
Instgructors and GliderPorts as following SSA/SSF Approved Traing
Procedures.

[Kemp[_2_]]

One data point on the "dive brake open" detection with this particular
accident.

I've started a flight three times where the divebrakes were unlocked
and then sucked out as speed picked up.

In the first, 20+ years ago, it was a Blanik where we were past the
point that we should have lifted off. I don't know what made me
looked at the wings, but I did and saw them open. Closed them and we
ballooned up, almost causing a second incident but caught it quick
enough and continued on with an otherwise normal tow.

In the second, 12+ years ago, it was in my Standard Libelle where the
divebrakes mattered little to the Pawnee towplane. A radio call from
the towplane at about 700 ft. and I closed them.

In the third, about 8 years ago at Minden, I was launching in the
ASH-26E and halfway down the runway well past where I should have
lifted off, I looked out to see the brakes open. I killed the power,
and slowed down to taxi speed, taxied around back to the takeoff point
for another launch.

After these teaching moments, I now always glance at one wing on the
takeoff roll once I get good aileron control and again once I'm past
the turnaround altitude (400-500 ft.). It's now part of my takeoff /
climbout procedure, so perhaps each pilot can add this to their
procedures, whether or not there are spoiler alarms on the ship.

Kemp

[guy]

Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
community.
Radios. Person to person communication. Not perfect but a heck of a
lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
doing.
Radios. Transponders. Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
NOT a substitution for a transponder.
That is my take.
Flying is expensive. Get over it. Buy the equipment. Batteries are
no longer an excuse.
We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
kinds of traffic.

[[email protected]]

On Jul 24, 8:45*pm, Kemp > wrote:
> One data point on the "dive brake open" detection with this particular
> accident.
>
> I've started a flight three times where the divebrakes were unlocked
> and then sucked out as speed picked up.
>
> In the first, 20+ years ago, it was a Blanik where we were past the
> point that we should have lifted off. *I don't know what made me
> looked at the wings, but I did and saw them open. *Closed them and we
> ballooned up, almost causing a second incident but caught it quick
> enough and continued on with an otherwise normal tow.
>
> In the second, 12+ years ago, it was in my Standard Libelle where the
> divebrakes mattered little to the Pawnee towplane. *A radio call from
> the towplane at about 700 ft. and I closed them.
>
> In the third, about 8 years ago at Minden, I was launching in the
> ASH-26E and halfway down the runway well past where I should have
> lifted off, I looked out to see the brakes open. *I killed the power,
> and slowed down to taxi speed, taxied around back to the takeoff point
> for another launch.
>
> After these teaching moments, I now always glance at one wing on the
> takeoff roll once I get good aileron control and again once I'm past
> the turnaround altitude (400-500 ft.). *It's now part of my takeoff /
> climbout procedure, so perhaps each pilot can add this to their
> procedures, whether or not there are spoiler alarms on the ship.
>
> Kemp

Kemp....

Most learn this lesson after only one time! In fact most learn this
lesson from someone else's mistake...

If you simply do a proper pre flight inspection, a proper take off
check list, and keep a hand near/on the spoiler handle.....it will
never happen....never....100% sure.....(ok...glance at the wing
too.....couldn't hurt)

Then you don't even have to remember the signal, or have a radio....

Cookie

[[email protected]]

On Jul 24, 11:16*pm, guy > wrote:
> Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
> community.
> Radios. *Person to person communication. *Not perfect but a heck of a
> lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
> doing.
> Radios. *Transponders. *Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
> NOT a substitution for a transponder.
> That is my take.
> Flying is expensive. *Get over it. *Buy the equipment. *Batteries are
> no longer an excuse.
> We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
> We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
> kinds of traffic.

Guy...

Last time I looked they were called "Standard American Soaring
Signals"

I can think of nothing more standard.......I was taught the "check
spoiler signal"....I teach the "check spoiler signal"

Every tow pilot I ever dealt with knows the check spoiler
signal......I teach every one of my students the check spoiler
signal.....This weekend I went to two gliderports and asked every
pilot and every tow pilot either what does the rudder waggle during
tow mean, or what is the signal for check spoiler?......every single
guy got it right.....This IS THE standard....

There is nothing more standard than this signal!!!

Now let's add the fact that this is one of the "your life may depend
on this signal" signals....It becomes even easier to remember....

Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? Who's going to
inspect each installation and how often? Who's going to insure fully
charged batteries? Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
squelch setting? (in both aircraft?)

Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
possible emergency scenario?

Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
which glider pilot ? (many operations have several tow going on at
the same time....

I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
at the field!

Or maybe this scenario....

Glider, ASW 20, (I think) N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway....the
glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
message for you....

OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....

Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! Over....



Cookie

[Free Flight 107[_2_]]

On Jul 25, 4:58*am, "
> wrote:
> On Jul 24, 11:16*pm, guy > wrote:
>
> > Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
> > community.
> > Radios. *Person to person communication. *Not perfect but a heck of a
> > lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
> > doing.
> > Radios. *Transponders. *Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
> > NOT a substitution for a transponder.
> > That is my take.
> > Flying is expensive. *Get over it. *Buy the equipment. *Batteries are
> > no longer an excuse.
> > We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
> > We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
> > kinds of traffic.
>
> Guy...
>
> Last time I looked they were called "Standard American Soaring
> Signals"
>
> I can think of nothing more standard.......I was taught the "check
> spoiler signal"....I teach the "check spoiler signal"
>
> Every tow pilot I ever dealt with knows the check spoiler
> signal......I teach every one of my students the check spoiler
> signal.....This weekend I went to two gliderports and asked every
> pilot and every tow pilot either what does the rudder waggle during
> tow mean, or what is the signal for check spoiler?......every single
> guy got it right.....This IS THE standard....
>
> There is nothing more standard than this signal!!!
>
> Now let's add the fact that this is one of the "your life may depend
> on this signal" signals....It becomes even easier to remember....
>
> Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
> inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
> charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
> squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)
>
> *Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
> possible emergency scenario?
>
> Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
> which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
> the same time....
>
> I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
> and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
> at the field!
>
> Or maybe this scenario....
>
> Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway....the
> glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
> 789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
> message for you....
>
> OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....
>
> Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....
>
> Cookie

How about "Glider on tow, your spoilers are open!"

Hard to screw that up! Even if there were 4 gliders on tow, all of
them checking their spoilers would be a good thing, right?

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jul 25, 10:47*am, Free Flight 107 > wrote:
> On Jul 25, 4:58*am, "
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > On Jul 24, 11:16*pm, guy > wrote:
>
> > > Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
> > > community.
> > > Radios. *Person to person communication. *Not perfect but a heck of a
> > > lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
> > > doing.
> > > Radios. *Transponders. *Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
> > > NOT a substitution for a transponder.
> > > That is my take.
> > > Flying is expensive. *Get over it. *Buy the equipment. *Batteries are
> > > no longer an excuse.
> > > We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
> > > We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
> > > kinds of traffic.
>
> > Guy...
>
> > Last time I looked they were called "Standard American Soaring
> > Signals"
>
> > I can think of nothing more standard.......I was taught the "check
> > spoiler signal"....I teach the "check spoiler signal"
>
> > Every tow pilot I ever dealt with knows the check spoiler
> > signal......I teach every one of my students the check spoiler
> > signal.....This weekend I went to two gliderports and asked every
> > pilot and every tow pilot either what does the rudder waggle during
> > tow mean, or what is the signal for check spoiler?......every single
> > guy got it right.....This IS THE standard....
>
> > There is nothing more standard than this signal!!!
>
> > Now let's add the fact that this is one of the "your life may depend
> > on this signal" signals....It becomes even easier to remember....
>
> > Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
> > inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
> > charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
> > squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)
>
> > *Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
> > possible emergency scenario?
>
> > Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
> > which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
> > the same time....
>
> > I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
> > and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
> > at the field!
>
> > Or maybe this scenario....
>
> > Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway....the
> > glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
> > 789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
> > message for you....
>
> > OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....
>
> > Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....
>
> > Cookie
>
> How about "Glider on tow, your spoilers are open!"
>
> Hard to screw that up! Even if there were 4 gliders on tow, all of
> them checking their spoilers would be a good thing, right?

I've liked "Glider on tow, check spoilers". Briefer, instructs the
pilot (who is already clearly behind their aircraft) what to do. I
still wonder if a pilot might be confused by this--but if they are
then maybe they are so far behind they are a lost cause anyhow? It
would be nice to have a standard call. I hope tow pilots still try to
climb to a safe height/location if possible before making a call. We
are still going to have confused pilots releasing when they should not
based on radio confusion (e.g. noisy cockpits, stress, poor/
unpracticed phraseology, etc.). So while I think properly installed
and used radios are very important here I would hate to see anyone
think radios alone are a simple panacea here--and I expect many of the
folks who are advocating improved/more radio use agree with that
anyhow.

Darryl

[Ramy]

On Jul 25, 4:22*am, "
> wrote:
> On Jul 24, 8:45*pm, Kemp > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > One data point on the "dive brake open" detection with this particular
> > accident.
>
> > I've started a flight three times where the divebrakes were unlocked
> > and then sucked out as speed picked up.
>
> > In the first, 20+ years ago, it was a Blanik where we were past the
> > point that we should have lifted off. *I don't know what made me
> > looked at the wings, but I did and saw them open. *Closed them and we
> > ballooned up, almost causing a second incident but caught it quick
> > enough and continued on with an otherwise normal tow.
>
> > In the second, 12+ years ago, it was in my Standard Libelle where the
> > divebrakes mattered little to the Pawnee towplane. *A radio call from
> > the towplane at about 700 ft. and I closed them.
>
> > In the third, about 8 years ago at Minden, I was launching in the
> > ASH-26E and halfway down the runway well past where I should have
> > lifted off, I looked out to see the brakes open. *I killed the power,
> > and slowed down to taxi speed, taxied around back to the takeoff point
> > for another launch.
>
> > After these teaching moments, I now always glance at one wing on the
> > takeoff roll once I get good aileron control and again once I'm past
> > the turnaround altitude (400-500 ft.). *It's now part of my takeoff /
> > climbout procedure, so perhaps each pilot can add this to their
> > procedures, whether or not there are spoiler alarms on the ship.
>
> > Kemp
>
> Kemp....
>
> Most learn this lesson after only one time! * In fact most learn this
> lesson from someone else's mistake...
>
> If you simply do a proper pre flight inspection, a proper take off
> check list, and keep a hand near/on the spoiler handle.....it will
> never happen....never....100% sure.....(ok...glance at the wing
> too.....couldn't hurt)
>
> Then you don't even have to remember the signal, or have a radio....
>
> Cookie- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Right, IF is the key here. If we always do everything right than there
is no need for anything else, right? No need for automatic control
hook, parachutes, seat belts in cars etc, etc. But we human do NOT
always do everything right, and the first thing that goes away when
distracted or in emergency is the checklist!
I find it strange that some people still believe that they are immune
to mistakes since they always use practice, checklists etc, just
because nothing happened to them yet. We need to make the best effort
so mistakes wouldnt kill us so easily.
Kemp suggestion to glance at the wing is a good one, especially if the
tow is not going as expected!

Ramy

[Ramy]

On Jul 25, 4:58*am, "
> wrote:
> On Jul 24, 11:16*pm, guy > wrote:
>
> > Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
> > community.
> > Radios. *Person to person communication. *Not perfect but a heck of a
> > lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
> > doing.
> > Radios. *Transponders. *Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
> > NOT a substitution for a transponder.
> > That is my take.
> > Flying is expensive. *Get over it. *Buy the equipment. *Batteries are
> > no longer an excuse.
> > We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
> > We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
> > kinds of traffic.
>
> Guy...
>
> Last time I looked they were called "Standard American Soaring
> Signals"
>
> I can think of nothing more standard.......I was taught the "check
> spoiler signal"....I teach the "check spoiler signal"
>
> Every tow pilot I ever dealt with knows the check spoiler
> signal......I teach every one of my students the check spoiler
> signal.....This weekend I went to two gliderports and asked every
> pilot and every tow pilot either what does the rudder waggle during
> tow mean, or what is the signal for check spoiler?......every single
> guy got it right.....This IS THE standard....
>
> There is nothing more standard than this signal!!!
>
> Now let's add the fact that this is one of the "your life may depend
> on this signal" signals....It becomes even easier to remember....
>
> Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
> inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
> charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
> squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)
>
> *Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
> possible emergency scenario?
>
> Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
> which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
> the same time....
>
> I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
> and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
> at the field!
>
> Or maybe this scenario....
>
> Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway....the
> glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
> 789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
> message for you....
>
> OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....
>
> Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....
>
> Cookie

Cookie, I just hope you teach your tow pilots to climb to a safe
altitude if possible before giving a rudder wag . If not, please let
us know where you tow so we can avoid towing there.

Ramy

[150flivver]

On Jul 25, 3:12*pm, Ramy > wrote:
> On Jul 25, 4:58*am, "
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > On Jul 24, 11:16*pm, guy > wrote:
>
> > > Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
> > > community.
> > > Radios. *Person to person communication. *Not perfect but a heck of a
> > > lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
> > > doing.
> > > Radios. *Transponders. *Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
> > > NOT a substitution for a transponder.
> > > That is my take.
> > > Flying is expensive. *Get over it. *Buy the equipment. *Batteries are
> > > no longer an excuse.
> > > We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
> > > We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
> > > kinds of traffic.
>
> > Guy...
>
> > Last time I looked they were called "Standard American Soaring
> > Signals"
>
> > I can think of nothing more standard.......I was taught the "check
> > spoiler signal"....I teach the "check spoiler signal"
>
> > Every tow pilot I ever dealt with knows the check spoiler
> > signal......I teach every one of my students the check spoiler
> > signal.....This weekend I went to two gliderports and asked every
> > pilot and every tow pilot either what does the rudder waggle during
> > tow mean, or what is the signal for check spoiler?......every single
> > guy got it right.....This IS THE standard....
>
> > There is nothing more standard than this signal!!!
>
> > Now let's add the fact that this is one of the "your life may depend
> > on this signal" signals....It becomes even easier to remember....
>
> > Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
> > inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
> > charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
> > squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)
>
> > *Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
> > possible emergency scenario?
>
> > Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
> > which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
> > the same time....
>
> > I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
> > and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
> > at the field!
>
> > Or maybe this scenario....
>
> > Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway....the
> > glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
> > 789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
> > message for you....
>
> > OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....
>
> > Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....
>
> > Cookie
>
> Cookie, I just hope you teach your tow pilots to climb to a safe
> altitude if possible before giving a rudder wag . If not, please let
> us know where you tow so we can avoid towing there.
>
> Ramy

Can't speak for Cookie but personally, I don't want a glider pilot on
the end of my tow rope who can't understand the difference between two
very different visual signals.

[Dan Marotta]

"150flivver" > wrote in message
...
On Jul 25, 3:12 pm, Ramy > wrote:
> On Jul 25, 4:58 am, "
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > On Jul 24, 11:16 pm, guy > wrote:
>
> > > Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
> > > community.
> > > Radios. Person to person communication. Not perfect but a heck of a
> > > lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
> > > doing.
> > > Radios. Transponders. Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
> > > NOT a substitution for a transponder.
> > > That is my take.
> > > Flying is expensive. Get over it. Buy the equipment. Batteries are
> > > no longer an excuse.
> > > We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
> > > We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
> > > kinds of traffic.
>
> > Guy...
>
> > Last time I looked they were called "Standard American Soaring
> > Signals"
>
> > I can think of nothing more standard.......I was taught the "check
> > spoiler signal"....I teach the "check spoiler signal"
>
> > Every tow pilot I ever dealt with knows the check spoiler
> > signal......I teach every one of my students the check spoiler
> > signal.....This weekend I went to two gliderports and asked every
> > pilot and every tow pilot either what does the rudder waggle during
> > tow mean, or what is the signal for check spoiler?......every single
> > guy got it right.....This IS THE standard....
>
> > There is nothing more standard than this signal!!!
>
> > Now let's add the fact that this is one of the "your life may depend
> > on this signal" signals....It becomes even easier to remember....
>
> > Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? Who's going to
> > inspect each installation and how often? Who's going to insure fully
> > charged batteries? Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
> > squelch setting? (in both aircraft?)
>
> > Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
> > possible emergency scenario?
>
> > Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
> > which glider pilot ? (many operations have several tow going on at
> > the same time....
>
> > I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
> > and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
> > at the field!
>
> > Or maybe this scenario....
>
> > Glider, ASW 20, (I think) N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway....the
> > glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
> > 789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
> > message for you....
>
> > OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....
>
> > Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! Over....
>
> > Cookie
>
> Cookie, I just hope you teach your tow pilots to climb to a safe
> altitude if possible before giving a rudder wag . If not, please let
> us know where you tow so we can avoid towing there.
>
> Ramy

Can't speak for Cookie but personally, I don't want a glider pilot on
the end of my tow rope who can't understand the difference between two
very different visual signals.

I agree with you, flivver and suggest to those who want 100% safety maybe
they should stay in bed.

[[email protected]]

On Jul 25, 4:12*pm, Ramy > wrote:
> On Jul 25, 4:58*am, "
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > On Jul 24, 11:16*pm, guy > wrote:
>
> > > Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
> > > community.
> > > Radios. *Person to person communication. *Not perfect but a heck of a
> > > lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
> > > doing.
> > > Radios. *Transponders. *Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
> > > NOT a substitution for a transponder.
> > > That is my take.
> > > Flying is expensive. *Get over it. *Buy the equipment. *Batteries are
> > > no longer an excuse.
> > > We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
> > > We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
> > > kinds of traffic.
>
> > Guy...
>
> > Last time I looked they were called "Standard American Soaring
> > Signals"
>
> > I can think of nothing more standard.......I was taught the "check
> > spoiler signal"....I teach the "check spoiler signal"
>
> > Every tow pilot I ever dealt with knows the check spoiler
> > signal......I teach every one of my students the check spoiler
> > signal.....This weekend I went to two gliderports and asked every
> > pilot and every tow pilot either what does the rudder waggle during
> > tow mean, or what is the signal for check spoiler?......every single
> > guy got it right.....This IS THE standard....
>
> > There is nothing more standard than this signal!!!
>
> > Now let's add the fact that this is one of the "your life may depend
> > on this signal" signals....It becomes even easier to remember....
>
> > Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
> > inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
> > charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
> > squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)
>
> > *Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
> > possible emergency scenario?
>
> > Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
> > which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
> > the same time....
>
> > I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
> > and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
> > at the field!
>
> > Or maybe this scenario....
>
> > Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway....the
> > glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
> > 789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
> > message for you....
>
> > OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....
>
> > Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....
>
> > Cookie
>
> Cookie, I just hope you teach your tow pilots to climb to a safe
> altitude if possible before giving a rudder wag . If not, please let
> us know where you tow so we can avoid towing there.
>
> Ramy- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

First of all, I don't teach tow pilots....I teach people to become
glider pilots...

But...every tow pilot I have ever spoken to says that they will avoid
giving the rudder wag as long as they are climbing (somewhat)...at
least to a reasonable altitude......

I also know that most tow pilots will avoid giving the wing rock at
low altitude unless absolutely necessary.....

I know one incident where a tow pilot got low oil pressure right after
take off, but continued to about 1000' above the ground before waving
off the glider......glider and tow plane landed safely...but engine
was a write off......

Better a blown engine than bad accident....

This is all really common sense stuff....

But this is not the point..........the point is that "radio" is no
better than "rudder waggle" to convey a simple message...which is
"close the spoilers"........In fact the rudder waggle IS the
standard. In fact the radio adds a whole new layer of complexity and
failure points, compared the the signals we all were taught and should
know well....

The responsibility to know and understand signals is that of the PIC
in the glider........

It makes people "feel good" to go throught the "if only"
scenarios........"if only he had a two way radio they would be alive
today"......"If only the FAA would do something about this" If only
the SSA would do something. blah blah blah

See this puts the blame beyond the pilot.......

Sorry....if you want to play "if only"......I say...If only he did a
pre flight, and a pre take off check list...if only he kept his hand
near or on the spoiler handle....if only he recognised the poor climb
rate......if onloy he knew and understood an emergency plan...If ony
he knew what a simple standard signal meant??

yes we a human....yes we all make mistakes......this is why in aiation
we rely on written checklists......this is why we developed emercency
plans of action...this is why we have emergency signals......

If you don't lock the spoilers on preflights.....and don't lock them
on pre take off checks, and dont realize they are open during
tow.....then you get the "reminder"...the rudder waggle.....

If you make more mistakes than that...well you are in the wrong
sport..

Cookie

[BobW]

On 7/25/2011 2:06 PM, Ramy wrote:
> On Jul 25, 4:22 am, "
> > wrote:
>> On Jul 24, 8:45 pm, > wrote:
>>
>>> One data point on the "dive brake open" detection with this particular
>>> accident.
>>
>>> I've started a flight three times where the divebrakes were unlocked
>>> and then sucked out as speed picked up.
>>
>>> In the first, 20+ years ago, it was a Blanik where we were past the
>>> point that we should have lifted off. I don't know what made me
>>> looked at the wings, but I did and saw them open. Closed them and we
>>> ballooned up, almost causing a second incident but caught it quick
>>> enough and continued on with an otherwise normal tow.
>>
>>> In the second, 12+ years ago, it was in my Standard Libelle where the
>>> divebrakes mattered little to the Pawnee towplane. A radio call from
>>> the towplane at about 700 ft. and I closed them.
>>
>>> In the third, about 8 years ago at Minden, I was launching in the
>>> ASH-26E and halfway down the runway well past where I should have
>>> lifted off, I looked out to see the brakes open. I killed the power,
>>> and slowed down to taxi speed, taxied around back to the takeoff point
>>> for another launch.
>>
>>> After these teaching moments, I now always glance at one wing on the
>>> takeoff roll once I get good aileron control and again once I'm past
>>> the turnaround altitude (400-500 ft.). It's now part of my takeoff /
>>> climbout procedure, so perhaps each pilot can add this to their
>>> procedures, whether or not there are spoiler alarms on the ship.
>>
>>> Kemp

>>
>> Kemp....
>>
>> Most learn this lesson after only one time! In fact most learn this
>> lesson from someone else's mistake...
>>
>> If you simply do a proper pre flight inspection, a proper take off
>> check list, and keep a hand near/on the spoiler handle.....it will
>> never happen....never....100% sure.....(ok...glance at the wing
>> too.....couldn't hurt)
>>
>> Then you don't even have to remember the signal, or have a radio....
>>
>> Cookie- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Right, IF is the key here. If we always do everything right than there
> is no need for anything else, right? No need for automatic control
> hook, parachutes, seat belts in cars etc, etc. But we human do NOT
> always do everything right, and the first thing that goes away when
> distracted or in emergency is the checklist!
> I find it strange that some people still believe that they are immune
> to mistakes since they always use practice, checklists etc, just
> because nothing happened to them yet. We need to make the best effort
> so mistakes wouldnt kill us so easily.
> Kemp suggestion to glance at the wing is a good one, especially if the
> tow is not going as expected!
>
> Ramy

Here's a seriously-intended question...how lengthy should we allow a potential
accident chain to become before we DO start to point the finger at a pilot's
culpability instead of deciding to layer yet another procedural 'thing' as a
band-aid against human frailty?

Kudos to Kemp for publicly admitting his 3 inadvertent spoiler openings, and
*maybe* some slack his direction for the same gaffe being in 3 different ship
types (not quite so 'gaffe-y' as repeating it in the same ship, one might
argue), but the devil is in the details...were any/all of the launches
'rushed' in any way? Complacency? Mechanical failure? ???

What is it that is fundamentally difficult about putting a glider together
completely, double-checking for that completeness, then running a simple (e.g.
CB-SIFT-CBE) checklist immediately prior to hooking up? Who's most likely to
die if you get it horribly wrong?

I began a takeoff roll with a tail dolly on, once, rushing to obtain a
non-club-member spot at the front of a soon-to-be-long club tow line as soon
as the first club pilot thought he could remain aloft; I wanted to be the
pilot conveying the 'launch' signal! About the time I waggled the
ruddervators, 'that little voice' in my head said it didn't remember me
removing the dolly (I'd snagged an inexperienced wing runner in my unseemly
haste); an instant after beginning to roll, I pulled the release because I was
99% certain I had NOT removed the dolly...and I had not. I got my precious tow
slot...and haven't repeated 'any haste mistake' in more than 30 years.

I did make 'a got-interrupted mistake' - once - at a later date rigging a
different ship. Haven't repeated it, either.

I don't claim perfection, but I damned sure HAVE worked mentally intently to
sear the life-threateningly-crucial mistakes into my 'permanent' awareness.
And while I've never turned down any offers to perform a critical assembly
check, and appreciate the thought underlying them when offered, I've also
never sought them out or relied on them in any way, simply because I've
already done my own. It really isn't difficult.

Regards,
Bob - mindset matters! - W.

P.S. I don't pretend to have 'the answer' to my posed question, but I think a
decent argument can be made that humans are geniuses when it comes to being
idiots. Heckuva paradox, there. Somewhere along the line, Joe Pilot has to
personally reconcile this paradox. Personally, I prefer to depend first on
myself, rather than first on someone else's well-intended procedure to save my
bacon. (Hidden assumption: This presumes I as J. Pilot have prepared myself
beforehand with the basic relevant safety knowledge and personal skills to do
whatever it is I'm proposing to do...)

[[email protected]]

On Jul 25, 4:12*pm, Ramy > wrote:
> On Jul 25, 4:58*am, "
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > On Jul 24, 11:16*pm, guy > wrote:
>
> > > Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
> > > community.
> > > Radios. *Person to person communication. *Not perfect but a heck of a
> > > lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
> > > doing.
> > > Radios. *Transponders. *Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
> > > NOT a substitution for a transponder.
> > > That is my take.
> > > Flying is expensive. *Get over it. *Buy the equipment. *Batteries are
> > > no longer an excuse.
> > > We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
> > > We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
> > > kinds of traffic.
>
> > Guy...
>
> > Last time I looked they were called "Standard American Soaring
> > Signals"
>
> > I can think of nothing more standard.......I was taught the "check
> > spoiler signal"....I teach the "check spoiler signal"
>
> > Every tow pilot I ever dealt with knows the check spoiler
> > signal......I teach every one of my students the check spoiler
> > signal.....This weekend I went to two gliderports and asked every
> > pilot and every tow pilot either what does the rudder waggle during
> > tow mean, or what is the signal for check spoiler?......every single
> > guy got it right.....This IS THE standard....
>
> > There is nothing more standard than this signal!!!
>
> > Now let's add the fact that this is one of the "your life may depend
> > on this signal" signals....It becomes even easier to remember....
>
> > Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
> > inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
> > charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
> > squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)
>
> > *Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
> > possible emergency scenario?
>
> > Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
> > which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
> > the same time....
>
> > I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
> > and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
> > at the field!
>
> > Or maybe this scenario....
>
> > Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway....the
> > glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
> > 789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
> > message for you....
>
> > OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....
>
> > Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....
>
> > Cookie
>
> Cookie, I just hope you teach your tow pilots to climb to a safe
> altitude if possible before giving a rudder wag . If not, please let
> us know where you tow so we can avoid towing there.
>
> Ramy- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Ramy.....

Let me ask you this...

Do you know what the rudder waggle signal means??
If you get the rudder waggle signal shortly after take off...what
would you do???

Do you know any glider pilots who do not know what the rudder waggle
signal means???
Do you know any tow pilots who do not know what the rudder waggle
signal means??

Just asking..


Cookie

[Ramy]

On Jul 25, 5:56*pm, "
> wrote:
> On Jul 25, 4:12*pm, Ramy > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 25, 4:58*am, "
>
> > > wrote:
> > > On Jul 24, 11:16*pm, guy > wrote:
>
> > > > Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
> > > > community.
> > > > Radios. *Person to person communication. *Not perfect but a heck of a
> > > > lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
> > > > doing.
> > > > Radios. *Transponders. *Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
> > > > NOT a substitution for a transponder.
> > > > That is my take.
> > > > Flying is expensive. *Get over it. *Buy the equipment. *Batteries are
> > > > no longer an excuse.
> > > > We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
> > > > We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
> > > > kinds of traffic.
>
> > > Guy...
>
> > > Last time I looked they were called "Standard American Soaring
> > > Signals"
>
> > > I can think of nothing more standard.......I was taught the "check
> > > spoiler signal"....I teach the "check spoiler signal"
>
> > > Every tow pilot I ever dealt with knows the check spoiler
> > > signal......I teach every one of my students the check spoiler
> > > signal.....This weekend I went to two gliderports and asked every
> > > pilot and every tow pilot either what does the rudder waggle during
> > > tow mean, or what is the signal for check spoiler?......every single
> > > guy got it right.....This IS THE standard....
>
> > > There is nothing more standard than this signal!!!
>
> > > Now let's add the fact that this is one of the "your life may depend
> > > on this signal" signals....It becomes even easier to remember....
>
> > > Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
> > > inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
> > > charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
> > > squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)
>
> > > *Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
> > > possible emergency scenario?
>
> > > Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
> > > which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
> > > the same time....
>
> > > I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
> > > and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
> > > at the field!
>
> > > Or maybe this scenario....
>
> > > Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway....the
> > > glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
> > > 789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
> > > message for you....
>
> > > OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....
>
> > > Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....
>
> > > Cookie
>
> > Cookie, I just hope you teach your tow pilots to climb to a safe
> > altitude if possible before giving a rudder wag . If not, please let
> > us know where you tow so we can avoid towing there.
>
> > Ramy- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Ramy.....
>
> Let me ask you this...
>
> Do you know what the rudder waggle signal means??
> If you get the rudder waggle signal shortly after take off...what
> would you do???
>
> Do you know any glider pilots who do not know what the rudder waggle
> signal means???
> Do you know any tow pilots who do not know what the rudder waggle
> signal means??
>
> Just asking..
>
> Cookie- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Of course I know the signals. And so did most pilots who failed to
recognize it correctly during emergency or even during BFR, as clearly
evident from reading those threads and hearing about incidents and
accidents over the years. This includes very experience pilots and
CFIG's. Most of them lived to tell about it, but quiet a few didn't.
Based on my anecdotal statistics, 80%-90% of those reading this will
fail to recognize the signal correctly in true emergency. I am hoping
that at least those who are following these threads are now more aware
of this potential deadly confusion and will develope a reaction to
always check their spoilers first if the tow goes wrong or if the tow
pilot signaling something. It only takes a split of a second extra
before deciding to release.

Ramy

[Wiktor Moskwa]

Hi,

Let me just just add couple of thoughts regarding radio usage
and experiences with it in different part of the world.

I live and fly in Poland where radio is installed in most probably
every single glider and towplane. That's not a strict law requirement,
you can fly in class G airspace without one but every flight club
I know or heard of requires it with a strict "no radio - no fly"
policy.

Batteries "management" (for club gliders):
- charged overnight, every pilot has to connect the one he
used to the charger at the end of a day,
- in the morning, you take a battery and check its voltage (under
resistance),
- mandatory radio check during pre-flight inspection.

There is no standard phraseology only common practices:
- towplanes use shortened call signs, one-two letters at most,
e.g. "sierra faster!" (glider to towplane),
- gliders use their competition numbers as call signs,
- only student pilots wait for wing-rock signal to release,
- pilots release when they feel it's apriopriate and signal via radio
e.g. "papa november released",
- usually it's stated what's the minimum release height.

On a good day in my club there are usually 2 towplanes and
2 winches in use
During a competition there can be 8 towplanes in use and
radio communication is reduced to emergency+start signals only.

Regarding open spoilers, there's always a person on the ground
coordinating tows, landings, etc. and every start is observed
so he can signal glider to close spoilers via radio.
Of course if spoilers open later it's up to a towplane to signal it.
Also more performant gliders with water balast keep spoilers open a
little
for first several seconds to stabilize wings and reduce risk of a wing
drop.
So it's guaranteded a pilot has his hand on a spoiler handle in this
case.

Just to summarize, in my opinio radios increase safety a lot.
But of course they're not a remedy to safety problems.

Regards,
Wiktor


On 25 Lip, 13:58, " >
wrote:
> [..]
> Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
> inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
> charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
> squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)
>
> *Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
> possible emergency scenario?
>
> Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
> which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
> the same time....
>
> I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
> and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
> at the field!
>
> Or maybe this scenario....
>
> Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway....the
> glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
> 789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
> message for you....
>
> OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....
>
> Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....
>
> Cookie

[[email protected]]

On Jul 26, 1:15*am, Ramy > wrote:
> On Jul 25, 5:56*pm, "
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > On Jul 25, 4:12*pm, Ramy > wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 25, 4:58*am, "
>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > On Jul 24, 11:16*pm, guy > wrote:
>
> > > > > Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
> > > > > community.
> > > > > Radios. *Person to person communication. *Not perfect but a heck of a
> > > > > lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
> > > > > doing.
> > > > > Radios. *Transponders. *Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
> > > > > NOT a substitution for a transponder.
> > > > > That is my take.
> > > > > Flying ist becomes even easier to remember....
>
> > > > Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
> > > > inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
> > > > charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
> > > > squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)
>
> > > > *Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
> > > > possible emergency scenario?
>
> > > > Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
> > > > which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
> > > > the same time....
>
> > > > I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
> > > > and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
> > > > at the field!
>
> > > > Or maybe this scenario....
>
> > > > Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway.....the
> > > > glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
> > > > 789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
> > > > message for you....
>
> > > > OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....
>
> > > > Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....
>
> > > > Cookie
>
> > > Cookie, I just hope you teach your tow pilots to climb to a safe
> > > altitude if possible before giving a rudder wag . If not, please let
> > > us know where you tow so we can avoid towing there.
>
> > > Ramy- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Ramy.....
>
> > Let me ask you this...
>
> > Do you know what the rudder waggle signal means??
> > If you get the rudder waggle signal shortly after take off...what
> > would you do???
>
> > Do you know any glider pilots who do not know what the rudder waggle
> > signal means???
> > Do you know any tow pilots who do not know what the rudder waggle
> > signal means??
>
> > Just asking..
>
> > Cookie- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Of course I know the signals. And so did most pilots who failed to
> recognize it correctly during emergency or even during BFR, as clearly
> evident from reading those threads and hearing about incidents and
> accidents over the years. This includes very experience pilots and
> CFIG's. Most of them lived to tell about it, but quiet a few didn't.
> Based on my anecdotal statistics, 80%-90% of those reading this will
> fail to recognize the signal correctly in true emergency. I am hoping
> that at least those who are following these threads are now more aware
> of this potential deadly confusion and will develope a reaction to
> always check their spoilers first if the tow goes wrong or if the tow
> pilot signaling something. It only takes a split of a second extra
> before deciding to release.
>
> Ramy- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

So you are saying that you would probably get the signal wrong???

Do you do a pre take off check list?

Do you "close and lock" ths spoilers as part of your pre take off
check list?



Cookie

[[email protected]]

On Jul 26, 1:15*am, Ramy > wrote:
> On Jul 25, 5:56*pm, "
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > On Jul 25, 4:12*pm, Ramy > wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 25, 4:58*am, "
>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > On Jul 24, 11:16*pm, guy > wrote:
>
> > > > > Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
> > > > > community.
> > > > > Radios. *Person to person communication. *Not perfect but a heck of a
> > > > > lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
> > > > > doing.
> > > > > Radios. *Transponders. *Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
> > > > > NOT a substitution for a transponder.
> > > > > That is my take.
> > > > > Flying is expensive. *Get over it. *Buy the equipment. *Batteries are
> > > > > no longer an excuse.
> > > > > We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
> > > > > We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
> > > > > kinds of traffic.
>
> > > > Guy...
>
> > > > Last time I looked they were called "Standard American Soaring
> > > > Signals"
>
> > > > I can think of nothing more standard.......I was taught the "check
> > > > spoiler signal"....I teach the "check spoiler signal"
>
> > > > Every tow pilot I ever dealt with knows the check spoiler
> > > > signal......I teach every one of my students the check spoiler
> > > > signal.....This weekend I went to two gliderports and asked every
> > > > pilot and every tow pilot either what does the rudder waggle during
> > > > tow mean, or what is the signal for check spoiler?......every single
> > > > guy got it right.....This IS THE standard....
>
> > > > There is nothing more standard than this signal!!!
>
> > > > Now let's add the fact that this is one of the "your life may depend
> > > > on this signal" signals....It becomes even easier to remember....
>
> > > > Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
> > > > inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
> > > > charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
> > > > squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)
>
> > > > *Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
> > > > possible emergency scenario?
>
> > > > Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
> > > > which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
> > > > the same time....
>
> > > > I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
> > > > and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
> > > > at the field!
>
> > > > Or maybe this scenario....
>
> > > > Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway.....the
> > > > glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
> > > > 789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
> > > > message for you....
>
> > > > OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....
>
> > > > Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....
>
> > > > Cookie
>
> > > Cookie, I just hope you teach your tow pilots to climb to a safe
> > > altitude if possible before giving a rudder wag . If not, please let
> > > us know where you tow so we can avoid towing there.
>
> > > Ramy- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Ramy.....
>
> > Let me ask you this...
>
> > Do you know what the rudder waggle signal means??
> > If you get the rudder waggle signal shortly after take off...what
> > would you do???
>
> > Do you know any glider pilots who do not know what the rudder waggle
> > signal means???
> > Do you know any tow pilots who do not know what the rudder waggle
> > signal means??
>
> > Just asking..
>
> > Cookie- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Of course I know the signals. And so did most pilots who failed to
> recognize it correctly during emergency or even during BFR, as clearly
> evident from reading those threads and hearing about incidents and
> accidents over the years. This includes very experience pilots and
> CFIG's. Most of them lived to tell about it, but quiet a few didn't.
> Based on my anecdotal statistics, 80%-90% of those reading this will
> fail to recognize the signal correctly in true emergency. I am hoping
> that at least those who are following these threads are now more aware
> of this potential deadly confusion and will develope a reaction to
> always check their spoilers first if the tow goes wrong or if the tow
> pilot signaling something. It only takes a split of a second extra
> before deciding to release.
>
> Ramy- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Ramy....

My questions were directed at you personally....not for you to answer
for others....

Safety comes one pilot at a time...

Cookie

[[email protected]]

On Jul 26, 6:23*am, Wiktor Moskwa > wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Let me just just add couple of thoughts regarding radio usage
> and experiences with it in different part of the world.
>
> I live and fly in Poland where radio is installed in most probably
> every single glider and towplane. That's not a strict law requirement,
> you can fly in class G airspace without one but every flight club
> I know or heard of requires it with a strict "no radio - no fly"
> policy.
>
> Batteries "management" (for club gliders):
> *- charged overnight, every pilot has to connect the one he
> used to the charger at the end of a day,
> *- in the morning, you take a battery and check its voltage (under
> resistance),
> *- mandatory radio check during pre-flight inspection.
>
> There is no standard phraseology only common practices:
> *- towplanes use shortened call signs, one-two letters at most,
> * *e.g. "sierra faster!" (glider to towplane),
> *- gliders use their competition numbers as call signs,
> *- only student pilots wait for wing-rock signal to release,
> *- pilots release when they feel it's apriopriate and signal via radio
> * *e.g. "papa november released",
> *- usually it's stated what's the minimum release height.
>
> On a good day in my club there are usually 2 towplanes and
> 2 winches in use
> During a competition there can be 8 towplanes in use and
> radio communication is reduced to emergency+start signals only.
>
> Regarding open spoilers, there's always a person on the ground
> coordinating tows, landings, etc. and every start is observed
> so he can signal glider to close spoilers via radio.
> Of course if spoilers open later it's up to a towplane to signal it.
> Also more performant gliders with water balast keep spoilers open a
> little
> for first several seconds to stabilize wings and reduce risk of a wing
> drop.
> So it's guaranteded a pilot has his hand on a spoiler handle in this
> case.
>
> Just to summarize, in my opinio radios increase safety a lot.
> But of course they're not a remedy to safety problems.
>
> Regards,
> Wiktor
>
> On 25 Lip, 13:58, " >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > [..]
> > Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
> > inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
> > charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
> > squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)
>
> > *Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
> > possible emergency scenario?
>
> > Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
> > which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
> > the same time....
>
> > I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
> > and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
> > at the field!
>
> > Or maybe this scenario....
>
> > Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway....the
> > glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
> > 789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
> > message for you....
>
> > OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....
>
> > Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....
>
> > Cookie- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Right..some good points but more to ponder

Hand on spoiler shoud be for all flights....ballast or not....

Radio now requires additional training and practice to learn the
established "standards": of radio use....
Radio requires new layers of complexity to the system....such as
chargers....ground personel etc...
Tow plane signals are still needed and used
Radio is a great conveninece..but must be limited during high volume

Radio shifts the onus of safety respossibility away from the pilot and
places it onto others (ground crew, tow pilot etc)

Cookie

[[email protected]]

On Jul 25, 4:12*pm, Ramy > wrote:
> On Jul 25, 4:58*am, "
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > On Jul 24, 11:16*pm, guy > wrote:
>
> > > Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
> > > community.
> > > Radios. *Person to person communication. *Not perfect but a heck of a
> > > lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
> > > doing.
> > > Radios. *Transponders. *Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
> > > NOT a substitution for a transponder.
> > > That is my take.
> > > Flying is expensive. *Get over it. *Buy the equipment. *Batteries are
> > > no longer an excuse.
> > > We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
> > > We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
> > > kinds of traffic.
>
> > Guy...
>
> > Last time I looked they were called "Standard American Soaring
> > Signals"
>
> > I can think of nothing more standard.......I was taught the "check
> > spoiler signal"....I teach the "check spoiler signal"
>
> > Every tow pilot I ever dealt with knows the check spoiler
> > signal......I teach every one of my students the check spoiler
> > signal.....This weekend I went to two gliderports and asked every
> > pilot and every tow pilot either what does the rudder waggle during
> > tow mean, or what is the signal for check spoiler?......every single
> > guy got it right.....This IS THE standard....
>
> > There is nothing more standard than this signal!!!
>
> > Now let's add the fact that this is one of the "your life may depend
> > on this signal" signals....It becomes even easier to remember....
>
> > Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
> > inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
> > charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
> > squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)
>
> > *Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
> > possible emergency scenario?
>
> > Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
> > which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
> > the same time....
>
> > I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
> > and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
> > at the field!
>
> > Or maybe this scenario....
>
> > Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway....the
> > glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
> > 789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
> > message for you....
>
> > OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....
>
> > Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....
>
> > Cookie
>
> Cookie, I just hope you teach your tow pilots to climb to a safe
> altitude if possible before giving a rudder wag . If not, please let
> us know where you tow so we can avoid towing there.
>
> Ramy- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Ramy....

Lets put and keep the responsibility where it belongs....

The onus is on the glider pilot....not the tow pilot......spoiler open
in flight is a glider pilot problem....

Cookie

[[email protected]]

On Jul 26, 1:15*am, Ramy > wrote:
> On Jul 25, 5:56*pm, "
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > On Jul 25, 4:12*pm, Ramy > wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 25, 4:58*am, "
>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > On Jul 24, 11:16*pm, guy > wrote:
>
> > > > > Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
> > > > > community.
> > > > > Radios. *Person to person communication. *Not perfect but a heck of a
> > > > > lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
> > > > > doing.
> > > > > Radios. *Transponders. *Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
> > > > > NOT a substitution for a transponder.
> > > > > That is my take.
> > > > > Flying is expensive. *Get over it. *Buy the equipment. *Batteries are
> > > > > no longer an excuse.
> > > > > We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
> > > > > We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
> > > > > kinds of traffic.
>
> > > > Guy...
>
> > > > Last time I looked they were called "Standard American Soaring
> > > > Signals"
>
> > > > I can think of nothing more standard.......I was taught the "check
> > > > spoiler signal"....I teach the "check spoiler signal"
>
> > > > Every tow pilot I ever dealt with knows the check spoiler
> > > > signal......I teach every one of my students the check spoiler
> > > > signal.....This weekend I went to two gliderports and asked every
> > > > pilot and every tow pilot either what does the rudder waggle during
> > > > tow mean, or what is the signal for check spoiler?......every single
> > > > guy got it right.....This IS THE standard....
>
> > > > There is nothing more standard than this signal!!!
>
> > > > Now let's add the fact that this is one of the "your life may depend
> > > > on this signal" signals....It becomes even easier to remember....
>
> > > > Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
> > > > inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
> > > > charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
> > > > squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)
>
> > > > *Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
> > > > possible emergency scenario?
>
> > > > Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
> > > > which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
> > > > the same time....
>
> > > > I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
> > > > and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
> > > > at the field!
>
> > > > Or maybe this scenario....
>
> > > > Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway.....the
> > > > glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
> > > > 789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
> > > > message for you....
>
> > > > OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....
>
> > > > Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....
>
> > > > Cookie
>
> > > Cookie, I just hope you teach your tow pilots to climb to a safe
> > > altitude if possible before giving a rudder wag . If not, please let
> > > us know where you tow so we can avoid towing there.
>
> > > Ramy- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Ramy.....
>
> > Let me ask you this...
>
> > Do you know what the rudder waggle signal means??
> > If you get the rudder waggle signal shortly after take off...what
> > would you do???
>
> > Do you know any glider pilots who do not know what the rudder waggle
> > signal means???
> > Do you know any tow pilots who do not know what the rudder waggle
> > signal means??
>
> > Just asking..
>
> > Cookie- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Of course I know the signals. And so did most pilots who failed to
> recognize it correctly during emergency or even during BFR, as clearly
> evident from reading those threads and hearing about incidents and
> accidents over the years. This includes very experience pilots and
> CFIG's. Most of them lived to tell about it, but quiet a few didn't.
> Based on my anecdotal statistics, 80%-90% of those reading this will
> fail to recognize the signal correctly in true emergency. I am hoping
> that at least those who are following these threads are now more aware
> of this potential deadly confusion and will develope a reaction to
> always check their spoilers first if the tow goes wrong or if the tow
> pilot signaling something. It only takes a split of a second extra
> before deciding to release.
>
> Ramy- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Don't understand your logic here......if the guys knew the
signals....the would have closed the spoilers...

Rudder waggle = close spoiler.....

Yes by reading this thread pilots should consider the importance of

Doing a proper pre flight
proper take off check list
keeping hand near or on spoiler handle
having situational awareness when poor climb... check spoiler
Knowing signals.....
Developing an emergency plan tailered to each flight

Not expecting a 'magic voice" to come over the radio to save them once
they got themselves into a pinch...

Cookie

[vaughn[_3_]]

> wrote in message
...

>Hand on spoiler shoud be for all flights....ballast or not....

NO! In general, you should not have your fingers wrapped around the spoiler
handle on launch, any more than you should have your hand around the release
handle. A bump or a startle could cause you to anadvertantly open the spoilers.
The ergomatics of gliders differ, but I generally prefer to put a fist behind
the spoiler lever. This assures the spoilers stay closed and (incidently)
anchors my hand in the general vicinity of the release.

>Radio now requires additional training and practice to learn the
>established "standards": of radio use....

....Which any glider pilot should be easily capable of learning...The normal
method that humans use to communicate is the human voice. Nothing is simpler or
more natural for us to process.

>Radio requires new layers of complexity to the system....such as
>chargers....ground personel etc...

Sorry, that's just nonsense. Radios are cheap, simple to use and reliable.
Further, they are necessary because we share the sky with airplanes, virtually
all of which are radio equipped. It's perfectly reasonable for them to expect
that we have them too. Would you have us eliminate everything from our cockpits
that the Wright Broothers wouldn't recognize?


Vaughn

[Ramy]

On Jul 26, 4:34*am, "
> wrote:
> On Jul 26, 1:15*am, Ramy > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 25, 5:56*pm, "
>
> > > wrote:
> > > On Jul 25, 4:12*pm, Ramy > wrote:
>
> > > > On Jul 25, 4:58*am, "
>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > On Jul 24, 11:16*pm, guy > wrote:
>
> > > > > > Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
> > > > > > community.
> > > > > > Radios. *Person to person communication. *Not perfect but a heck of a
> > > > > > lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
> > > > > > doing.
> > > > > > Radios. *Transponders. *Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
> > > > > > NOT a substitution for a transponder.
> > > > > > That is my take.
> > > > > > Flying is expensive. *Get over it. *Buy the equipment. *Batteries are
> > > > > > no longer an excuse.
> > > > > > We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
> > > > > > We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
> > > > > > kinds of traffic.
>
> > > > > Guy...
>
> > > > > Last time I looked they were called "Standard American Soaring
> > > > > Signals"
>
> > > > > I can think of nothing more standard.......I was taught the "check
> > > > > spoiler signal"....I teach the "check spoiler signal"
>
> > > > > Every tow pilot I ever dealt with knows the check spoiler
> > > > > signal......I teach every one of my students the check spoiler
> > > > > signal.....This weekend I went to two gliderports and asked every
> > > > > pilot and every tow pilot either what does the rudder waggle during
> > > > > tow mean, or what is the signal for check spoiler?......every single
> > > > > guy got it right.....This IS THE standard....
>
> > > > > There is nothing more standard than this signal!!!
>
> > > > > Now let's add the fact that this is one of the "your life may depend
> > > > > on this signal" signals....It becomes even easier to remember....
>
> > > > > Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
> > > > > inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
> > > > > charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
> > > > > squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)
>
> > > > > *Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
> > > > > possible emergency scenario?
>
> > > > > Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
> > > > > which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
> > > > > the same time....
>
> > > > > I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
> > > > > and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
> > > > > at the field!
>
> > > > > Or maybe this scenario....
>
> > > > > Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway.....the
> > > > > glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
> > > > > 789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
> > > > > message for you....
>
> > > > > OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....
>
> > > > > Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....
>
> > > > > Cookie
>
> > > > Cookie, I just hope you teach your tow pilots to climb to a safe
> > > > altitude if possible before giving a rudder wag . If not, please let
> > > > us know where you tow so we can avoid towing there.
>
> > > > Ramy- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Ramy.....
>
> > > Let me ask you this...
>
> > > Do you know what the rudder waggle signal means??
> > > If you get the rudder waggle signal shortly after take off...what
> > > would you do???
>
> > > Do you know any glider pilots who do not know what the rudder waggle
> > > signal means???
> > > Do you know any tow pilots who do not know what the rudder waggle
> > > signal means??
>
> > > Just asking..
>
> > > Cookie- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Of course I know the signals. And so did most pilots who failed to
> > recognize it correctly during emergency or even during BFR, as clearly
> > evident from reading those threads and hearing about incidents and
> > accidents over the years. This includes very experience pilots and
> > CFIG's. Most of them lived to tell about it, but quiet a few didn't.
> > Based on my anecdotal statistics, 80%-90% of those reading this will
> > fail to recognize the signal correctly in true emergency. I am hoping
> > that at least those who are following these threads are now more aware
> > of this potential deadly confusion and will develope a reaction to
> > always check their spoilers first if the tow goes wrong or if the tow
> > pilot signaling something. It only takes a split of a second extra
> > before deciding to release.
>
> > Ramy- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Don't understand your logic here......if the guys knew the
> signals....the would have closed the spoilers...
>
> Rudder waggle = close spoiler.....
>
> Yes by reading this thread pilots should consider the importance of
>
> Doing a proper pre flight
> proper take off check list
> keeping hand near or on spoiler handle
> having situational awareness when poor climb... *check spoiler
> Knowing signals.....
> Developing an emergency plan tailered to each flight
>
> Not expecting a 'magic voice" to come over the radio to save them once
> they got themselves into a pinch...
>
> Cookie- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I give up. Maybe someone else can explain Cookie what I try to point
out about confusion and tunnel vision in emergency which can and did
happen to many pilots, including very experienced pilots and CFIGs.
( and no, it did not happen to me yet, but I am not sure I am immuned)
I even had a tow pilot who is very familiar with tow signals getting
confused and asked me why I am against the rudder waggle release
immidiatly signal...
All I am asking is not to give a rudder wag until at safe altitude if
possible.

Ramy

[Tony[_5_]]

Nothing to argue with there. I've always felt that this was the
prudent way to use the rudder waggle.

The accident that started this discussion was a cessna 150 with 150 hp
with the Capstan in tow. I believe the Capstan has at least 45 degree
if not vertical speed limiting airbrakes. It is approved for cloud
flying. I flew it at IVSM with Shane, it took hardly any brake to make
a normal approach. I wouldn't be surprised that if the brakes on the
Capstan were full open the combination could not climb

> All I am asking is not to give a rudder wag until at safe altitude if
> possible.
>
> Ramy

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Tue, 26 Jul 2011 14:34:04 -0700, Tony wrote:

> The accident that started this discussion was a cessna 150 with 150 hp
> with the Capstan in tow. I believe the Capstan has at least 45 degree
> if not vertical speed limiting airbrakes.
>
You're right: they're vertical speed-limiting brakes.

For those who don't know the Capstan, its brakes are at least as powerful
as those on a Puchacz, which also has vertical speed-limiting brakes.
I've only flown a Capstan once. At the end of that flight P1 demoed the
brakes with much the steepest approach and landing I've ridden through:
it made a fully braked ASW-20 approach, which I've flown quite a lot,
look shallow.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[[email protected]]

On Jul 26, 9:02*am, "vaughn" > wrote:
> > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >Hand on spoiler shoud be for all flights....ballast or not....
>
> NO! *In general, you should not have your fingers wrapped around the spoiler
> handle on launch, any more than you should have your hand around the release
> handle. *A bump or a startle could cause you to anadvertantly open the spoilers.
> The ergomatics of gliders differ, but I generally prefer to put a fist behind
> the spoiler lever. *This assures the spoilers stay closed and (incidently)
> anchors my hand in the general vicinity of the release.
>
> >Radio now requires additional training and practice to learn the
> >established "standards": of radio use....
>
> ...Which any glider pilot should be easily capable of learning...The normal
> method that humans use to communicate is the human voice. *Nothing is simpler or
> more natural for us to process.
>
> >Radio requires new layers of complexity to the system....such as
> >chargers....ground personel etc...
>
> Sorry, that's just nonsense. *Radios are cheap, simple to use and reliable.
> Further, they are necessary because we share the sky with airplanes, virtually
> all of which are radio equipped. * It's perfectly reasonable for them to expect
> that we have them too. *Would you have us eliminate everything from our cockpits
> that the Wright Broothers wouldn't recognize?
>
> Vaughn

You didn't get the small print...

Hand on/ near/ behind the spoiler....

On as in when the guys use open spoiler for initial take off.....near
or behind spoiler handle so you don't jerk them open, but can feel
them open if they were not locked...(fit like you say works well)....

Point is "Cockpit management" pilot is responsible to keep spoiler
closed during tow....

Radios reliable??? Funny, my job for today (I work for avionics
shop) is to find out what's wrong with 4 glider's radios for a local
club......

Cookie

[[email protected]]

On Jul 26, 5:20*pm, Ramy > wrote:
> On Jul 26, 4:34*am, "
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > On Jul 26, 1:15*am, Ramy > wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 25, 5:56*pm, "
>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > On Jul 25, 4:12*pm, Ramy > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Jul 25, 4:58*am, "
>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > On Jul 24, 11:16*pm, guy > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
> > > > > > > community.
> > > > > > > Radios. *Person to person communication. *Not perfect but a heck of a
> > > > > > > lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
> > > > > > > doing.
> > > > > > > Radios. *Transponders. *Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
> > > > > > > NOT a substitution for a transponder.
> > > > > > > That is my take.
> > > > > > > Flying is expensive. *Get over it. *Buy the equipment. *Batteries are
> > > > > > > no longer an excuse.
> > > > > > > We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
> > > > > > > We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
> > > > > > > kinds of traffic.
>
> > > > > > Guy...
>
> > > > > > Last time I looked they were called "Standard American Soaring
> > > > > > Signals"
>
> > > > > > I can think of nothing more standard.......I was taught the "check
> > > > > > spoiler signal"....I teach the "check spoiler signal"
>
> > > > > > Every tow pilot I ever dealt with knows the check spoiler
> > > > > > signal......I teach every one of my students the check spoiler
> > > > > > signal.....This weekend I went to two gliderports and asked every
> > > > > > pilot and every tow pilot either what does the rudder waggle during
> > > > > > tow mean, or what is the signal for check spoiler?......every single
> > > > > > guy got it right.....This IS THE standard....
>
> > > > > > There is nothing more standard than this signal!!!
>
> > > > > > Now let's add the fact that this is one of the "your life may depend
> > > > > > on this signal" signals....It becomes even easier to remember.....
>
> > > > > > Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
> > > > > > inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
> > > > > > charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
> > > > > > squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)
>
> > > > > > *Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
> > > > > > possible emergency scenario?
>
> > > > > > Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
> > > > > > which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
> > > > > > the same time....
>
> > > > > > I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
> > > > > > and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
> > > > > > at the field!
>
> > > > > > Or maybe this scenario....
>
> > > > > > Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway....the
> > > > > > glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
> > > > > > 789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
> > > > > > message for you....
>
> > > > > > OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....
>
> > > > > > Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....
>
> > > > > > Cookie
>
> > > > > Cookie, I just hope you teach your tow pilots to climb to a safe
> > > > > altitude if possible before giving a rudder wag . If not, please let
> > > > > us know where you tow so we can avoid towing there.
>
> > > > > Ramy- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > Ramy.....
>
> > > > Let me ask you this...
>
> > > > Do you know what the rudder waggle signal means??
> > > > If you get the rudder waggle signal shortly after take off...what
> > > > would you do???
>
> > > > Do you know any glider pilots who do not know what the rudder waggle
> > > > signal means???
> > > > Do you know any tow pilots who do not know what the rudder waggle
> > > > signal means??
>
> > > > Just asking..
>
> > > > Cookie- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Of course I know the signals. And so did most pilots who failed to
> > > recognize it correctly during emergency or even during BFR, as clearly
> > > evident from reading those threads and hearing about incidents and
> > > accidents over the years. This includes very experience pilots and
> > > CFIG's. Most of them lived to tell about it, but quiet a few didn't.
> > > Based on my anecdotal statistics, 80%-90% of those reading this will
> > > fail to recognize the signal correctly in true emergency. I am hoping
> > > that at least those who are following these threads are now more aware
> > > of this potential deadly confusion and will develope a reaction to
> > > always check their spoilers first if the tow goes wrong or if the tow
> > > pilot signaling something. It only takes a split of a second extra
> > > before deciding to release.
>
> > > Ramy- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Don't understand your logic here......if the guys knew the
> > signals....the would have closed the spoilers...
>
> > Rudder waggle = close spoiler.....
>
> > Yes by reading this thread pilots should consider the importance of
>
> > Doing a proper pre flight
> > proper take off check list
> > keeping hand near or on spoiler handle
> > having situational awareness when poor climb... *check spoiler
> > Knowing signals.....
> > Developing an emergency plan tailered to each flight
>
> > Not expecting a 'magic voice" to come over the radio to save them once
> > they got themselves into a pinch...
>
> > Cookie- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I give up. Maybe someone else can explain Cookie what I try to point
> out about confusion and tunnel vision in emergency which can and did
> happen to many pilots, including very experienced pilots and CFIGs.
> ( and no, it did not happen to me yet, but I am not sure I am immuned)
> I even had a tow pilot who is very familiar with tow signals getting
> confused and asked me why I am against the rudder waggle release
> immidiatly signal...
> All I am asking is not to give a rudder wag until at safe altitude if
> possible.
>
> Ramy- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Confusion during emergency.......

I though being a pilot menat being able to handle emergencies.....

Plus where's the "pressure" when you get the "close spoiler signal"

If you are on tow....fat dumb and happy, with the spoiler open
(unknown to you) then you have no pressure at all....you think it is
a normal tow......If you get a signal...respond tothe signal....


If the tow is not gong well....like poor climb.....then you may gell
some "pressure"...."something is not right"....put again a good pilot
would "check spoiler"


Cookie

[[email protected]]

On Jul 26, 5:34*pm, Tony > wrote:
> Nothing to argue with there. I've always felt that this was the
> prudent way to use the rudder waggle.
>
> The accident that started this discussion was a cessna 150 with 150 hp
> with the Capstan in tow. *I believe the Capstan has at least 45 degree
> if not vertical speed limiting airbrakes. It is approved for cloud
> flying. I flew it at IVSM with Shane, it took hardly any brake to make
> a normal approach. I wouldn't be surprised that if the brakes on the
> Capstan were full open the combination could not climb
>
>
>
> > All I am asking is not to give a rudder wag until at safe altitude if
> > possible.
>
> > Ramy- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

So these guys were basically screwed right from the onset.....

But "standard" procedures would have prevented the
problem....Checklists etc...

Cookie

[Dan Marotta]

I give up. Maybe someone else can explain Cookie what I try to point
out about confusion and tunnel vision in emergency which can and did
happen to many pilots, including very experienced pilots and CFIGs.
( and no, it did not happen to me yet, but I am not sure I am immuned)
I even had a tow pilot who is very familiar with tow signals getting
confused and asked me why I am against the rudder waggle release
immidiatly signal...
All I am asking is not to give a rudder wag until at safe altitude if
possible.

Ramy

---------------------------------------------------------

Well, now, that's a reasonable request. But what I've heard from you
previously was demands for radios, eliminating signals, more safety
regulations, claims that it's the fault of the signals and not the glider
pilot. It's only the glider pilot who pulls the release in the glider and
only he can decide when.

Do your checklist whether written or from memory, formal or informal as long
as it works for you. Be prepared for the unexpected, KNOW what open
spoilers sound and feel like and how to handle the problem (it's not an
emergency unless you make it so). Just don't ask me to adhere to more
unnecessary rules and don't blame some visual signal for my mistakes.

For my part when I'm towing, I won't wave you off unless MY safety is at
stake, but if you force me to drag you to a "safe release altitude" because
you're too dumb to realize that your spoilers are open, I will NOT be towing
you again. Note: The previous was not directed at you, Ramy, but at anyone
dumb enough to hang on for 5 or 10 minutes with open spoilers while the tow
plane struggles to climb.

Dan

[vaughn[_3_]]

> wrote in message
...
>Radios reliable??? Funny, my job for today (I work for avionics
>shop)

It so happens that I ran a radio shop for about 20 years. I know a bit about
radios, and I stand behind my statement.

It's odd that the rest of the aviation world finds radios to be plenty
reliable. If I fly my Cezzna to the local towered airport, Part 91 requires me
to call for clearance on my "unreliable" radio. They will also answer using
their own "unreliable" radio, even though they have a perfectly good "reliable"
light gun.

Vaughn

[Bill D]

On Jul 27, 9:56*am, "vaughn" > wrote:
> > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >Radios reliable??? * Funny, my job for today *(I work for avionics
> >shop)
>
> * *It so happens that I ran a radio shop for about 20 years. *I know a bit about
> radios, and I stand behind my statement.
>
> * *It's odd that the rest of the aviation world finds radios to be plenty
> reliable. *If I fly my Cezzna to the local towered airport, *Part 91 requires me
> to call for clearance on my "unreliable" radio. *They will also answer using
> their own "unreliable" radio, even though they have a perfectly good "reliable"
> light gun.
>
> Vaughn

I'm not sure the rest of aviation finds radio's "plenty reliable". I
think the operating phrase is "convenient when they work". Even if
your radios are in great shape, just one stuck mike can render a
common frequency unusable. A few weekends ago we were 'entertained'
by an instructors patter for over an hour due to a stuck mike making
the CTAF unusable.

One spoilers-open incident I observed, I think everyone on the
airfield with access to a radio started yelling at once and so the
glider pilot heard nothing useful. (Folks, only the tow pilot is
responsible for alerting the glider pilot to the problem - everybody
else keep your fingers off the PTT switch.)

If you want to replace the rudder waggle, then some other visual
signal has to be invented. I find it hard to imagine another as
good. Maybe a big LED sign on the tugs wings flashing "SPOILERS!".

[[email protected]]

On Jul 27, 11:56*am, "vaughn" > wrote:
> > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >Radios reliable??? * Funny, my job for today *(I work for avionics
> >shop)
>
> * *It so happens that I ran a radio shop for about 20 years. *I know a bit about
> radios, and I stand behind my statement.
>
> * *It's odd that the rest of the aviation world finds radios to be plenty
> reliable. *If I fly my Cezzna to the local towered airport, *Part 91 requires me
> to call for clearance on my "unreliable" radio. *They will also answer using
> their own "unreliable" radio, even though they have a perfectly good "reliable"
> light gun.
>
> Vaughn

Dude.....

You ran a radio shop?....so you never repaired a radio? How did you
make any money??

But don't worry about safety...the radio will save you!

Cookie

[Andreas Maurer]

On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 03:06:29 -0700 (PDT), "
> wrote:


>Radios reliable??? Funny, my job for today (I work for avionics
>shop) is to find out what's wrong with 4 glider's radios for a local
>club......


Sometimes I wonder why things that work all over the world don't seem
to work in the US... like radios in gliders. ;)

A failed radio is pretty much unknown in the part of the world where I
live. I didn't know that German technology was that far advanced. :)


On my airfield a radio call stopped a pilot from ruining his day twice
within the last six weeks.
Says a lot about the pilot - but he's the type of guy who would be a
typical candidate to confuse rudder waggle and release unexpectedly.





Cheers
Andreas

[vaughn[_3_]]

> wrote in message
...
>You ran a radio shop?....so you never repaired a radio? How did you
>make any money??

I ran a radio shop for a municipality. These were public safety radios that
lives depended on, more that a thousand of them. Yes, a few broke (or were
broken or drowned by their users). Most we never saw again except when they
needed to be reinstalled or reprogrammed. They were damn reliable gadgets, even
though they are far more complicated than an aviation radio.

Radios aren't perfect, but neither is the rudder wag signal. Occasionally
miscues from that signal seems to kill a perfectly good pilot. and/or wreck a
perfectly good glider. If you don't see that as a problem, then we can agree to
disagree and get on with our lives.

>But don't worry about safety...the radio will save you!

That really doesn't do much to advance the discussion does it?

Vaughn

[vaughn[_3_]]

"Andreas Maurer" > wrote in message
...
> A failed radio is pretty much unknown in the part of the world where I
> live. I didn't know that German technology was that far advanced. :)

My guess is that our Japanese radios work just as well as your Japanese radios.

Vaughn

[Werner Schmidt]

Hello Andreas Maurer, you wrote at 07.28.2011 03:21

> On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 03:06:29 -0700 (PDT), "
> > wrote:
>
>> Radios reliable??? Funny, my job for today (I work for avionics
>> shop) is to find out what's wrong with 4 glider's radios for a local
>> club......
>
> Sometimes I wonder why things that work all over the world don't seem
> to work in the US... like radios in gliders. ;)
>
> A failed radio is pretty much unknown in the part of the world where I
> live. I didn't know that German technology was that far advanced. :)

in which part of the german world ;-) do you live?

At my gliding club here in northern Germany we have had severeal
failures of radios in our gliders over the last years. Disconnected
speaker, stuck transmit button, electric installation failure, and so
on. None of them causing a fatality or even an accident, fortunately.

Think your statistics ain't representative ... :-)

> On my airfield a radio call stopped a pilot from ruining his day twice
> within the last six weeks.

Huh - the *same* pilot?

> Says a lot about the pilot

[sigh] ... the same pilot ... :-/

> - but he's the type of guy who would be a
> typical candidate to confuse rudder waggle and release unexpectedly.

So how he managed not to misunderstand the radio calls? >;->

I agree, radios are rather reliable, but your eyes are more. And under
bad circumstances a radio call may be poorly readable, misunderstood,
.... so two simple signals (rudder wag / wing rock) should be safer. But
the accidents corresponding with them *did* occur ...

I don't have the solution. In my opinion one should:

1. give no signal before misinterpretation is not likely to be harmful
(i.E. before sufficient height is gained), whenever possible

2. if necessary, give a radio call (like "glider on tow, check your
airbrakes") /followed/ by the corresponding signal (rudder wag)

.... risk of misinterpretation should be less, then.

Just my 2 ct.

regards
Werner

[Andreas Maurer]

On Fri, 29 Jul 2011 00:12:35 +0200, Werner Schmidt >
wrote:

>in which part of the german world ;-) do you live?

Landau, Pfalz. :)



>Think your statistics ain't representative ... :-)

I think they are - ours are similar to yours:
Perhaps half a dozen of more or less serious radio failures per year
in my club. Multiplay this probability with the probability of having
to call a pilot with an important advice, and chances are pretty small
that you are not going to reach the pilot in question. In my
experience 8 out of 10 radio calls worked.


>[sigh] ... the same pilot ... :-/

Yup.
This guy has got a written checklist that is half a meter long (and
comprises at least 50 items) - yet things like "airbrakes closed and
locked" or "wind direction and strength" didn't make it onto the check
list... says it all, doesn't it?


>So how he managed not to misunderstand the radio calls? >;->

Clear communication. Fortunately the guys on my home airfield are
disciplined enough that only one of them yells into the radio. :)

He's flying a Ventus - first case of extended aerobrakes was an
aerotow behind an FK-9 (this combination doesn't really climb anymore
if the glider's airbrakes are extended), the second case was a winch
launch (lots of water on board, of course)...........


>I agree, radios are rather reliable, but your eyes are more. And under
>bad circumstances a radio call may be poorly readable, misunderstood,
>... so two simple signals (rudder wag / wing rock) should be safer. But
>the accidents corresponding with them *did* occur ...

This is what puzzles me - I had thought that these optical signs were
extremely reliable (I had even thought about introducing them in my
club)... poor training of the glider pilots?


>I don't have the solution. In my opinion one should:
>
>1. give no signal before misinterpretation is not likely to be harmful
>(i.E. before sufficient height is gained), whenever possible
>
>2. if necessary, give a radio call (like "glider on tow, check your
>airbrakes") /followed/ by the corresponding signal (rudder wag)

I'm not sure about rudder wag.
A precise radio call ("Delta 7989 check your airbrakes") is probably
less prone to trigger an immediate wrong reaction of the pilot than an
optical hint like rudder wag.

We once had a pretty low release of a glider pilot because the
towplane crossed some turbulence that rocked its wings...

I guess in the end it comes down to one point: Training.


Cheers
Andreas

[Andreas Maurer]

On Thu, 28 Jul 2011 15:04:45 -0400, "vaughn"
> wrote:

>My guess is that our Japanese radios work just as well as your Japanese radios.

:)

Following the discussion here I get doubts, I have to admit. :)


Andreas

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Fri, 29 Jul 2011 02:07:40 +0200, Andreas Maurer wrote:

> We once had a pretty low release of a glider pilot because the towplane
> crossed some turbulence that rocked its wings...
>
One of our instructors once told me to notice the tow plane's ailerons:
If they're using full deflection its a wing rock, so release, but if
they're not it may just be turbulence.

> I guess in the end it comes down to one point: Training.
>
Agreed.

BTW, both wing rocking (release now) and rudder waggle (check airbrakes)
are in both the BGA Rules & Laws and the BGA Instructors manual and so
are taught uniformly throughout the UK, along with a third signal: a
glider that can't release flies out to the left as far as possible so
the tuggie can see him and rocks his wings, rolling left then right to
avoid sliding in.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Tom Stock]

> How about "Glider on tow, your spoilers are open!"
>
> Hard to screw that up! Even if there were 4 gliders on tow, all of
> them checking their spoilers would be a good thing, right?

ok, seriously, just one question.

when the radio call fails, for whatever probable reason including task
loading, what is the next signal to tell the glider pilot the spoilers are
open?

let me guess, a rudder waggle? uh oh!

[Tom Stock]

>
> How about "Glider on tow, your spoilers are open!"
>
> Hard to screw that up! Even if there were 4 gliders on tow, all of
> them checking their spoilers would be a good thing, right?

Did not copy, 1-26 very noisy say again?

[[email protected]]

On Jul 27, 9:21*pm, Andreas Maurer > wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 03:06:29 -0700 (PDT), "
>
> > wrote:
> >Radios reliable??? * Funny, my job for today *(I work for avionics
> >shop) * is to find out what's wrong with 4 glider's radios for a local
> >club......
>
> Sometimes I wonder why things that work all over the world don't seem
> to work in the US... like radios in gliders. ;)
>
> A failed radio is pretty much unknown in the part of the world where I
> live. I didn't know that German technology was that far advanced. :)
>
> On my airfield a radio call stopped a pilot from ruining his day twice
> within the last six weeks.
> Says a lot about the pilot - but he's the type of guy who would be a
> typical candidate to confuse rudder waggle and release unexpectedly.
>
> Cheers
> Andreas

Two or more pilots, on working radios talking at the same
time....."stepped on"...will cause nobody to hear
transmission....happens all the time...

I know onw glider port where a particular tow pilot gives a running
play by play of everything that is happening every where around the
field.....he never stops talking....you cannot get in a word
edgewise....

Signal has non of these issues...


Cookie
Cookie

[[email protected]]

Ok.....let's look at this another way...

The accident with the slingsby....what caused this accident?

1. Take off with spoiler open
2. Lack of radio
3. other, neither, or both

Cookie

[Andreas Maurer]

On Fri, 29 Jul 2011 04:40:40 -0700 (PDT), "
> wrote:

>Two or more pilots, on working radios talking at the same
>time....."stepped on"...will cause nobody to hear
>transmission....happens all the time...

I would agree if I had experienced this - but in my experience nearly
all of the really important radio messages were understood by the
glider pilot (any we are flying on a pretty busy glider airport).



>I know onw glider port where a particular tow pilot gives a running
>play by play of everything that is happening every where around the
>field.....he never stops talking....you cannot get in a word
>edgewise....

Incredibly poor airmanship - how come that noone ever told him to shut
up in a way that this guy ought to understand the message?

How could an instructor talk to his solo student pilot if such a guy
is blocking the frequency?


>Signal has non of these issues...

Well... watching this discussion it obviously has other issues...

Best wishes
Andreas

[Andy[_1_]]

On Jul 28, 6:33*pm, Martin Gregorie >
wrote:

> One of our instructors once told me to notice the tow plane's ailerons:
> If they're using full deflection its a wing rock, so release, but if
> they're not it may just be turbulence.
>

That may work in UK but it would be bad advice in Arizona where it's
not uncommon to need full aileron deflection to keep the tug right
side up. If looking at the ailerons maybe be better to check if the
aileron is in the sense to cause the roll or to counter it. I doubt
many glider pilots are going to process that information though.

Andy