Re: tow rope brake practice crash, what can we learn...

[5Z]

On Friday, July 22, 2011 6:42:31 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I've had two engine failures with gliders on tow (blown front engine seal
> and failed oil pump) and both times the glider released when I rocked the
> wings. Had they not, I'd have dumped them without concern of the terrain
> below.

Exactly! If I get a wing rock, I'll think long and hard if pulling the release will put me in danger. If, while thinking, the tow pilot dumps me, then the decision is made.

The tow pilot has two (radio is the third) options to "signal" the glider: wing rock and pull the release. Pulling the release is easier to do, so if the towplane rocks its wings for me, I will assess the situation before pulling the release.

When driving a car, do you immediately swerve when something jumps out in front of you? At a low speed this might work. At high speed this results in a rollover. Always, *think* before you act!!!

-Tom

[Tony[_5_]]

On Jul 22, 12:36*pm, 5Z > wrote:
> On Friday, July 22, 2011 6:42:31 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > I've had two engine failures with gliders on tow (blown front engine seal
> > and failed oil pump) and both times the glider released when I rocked the
> > wings. *Had they not, I'd have dumped them without concern of the terrain
> > below.
>
> Exactly! *If I get a wing rock, I'll think long and hard if pulling the release will put me in danger. *If, while thinking, the tow pilot dumps me, then the decision is made.
>
> The tow pilot has two (radio is the third) options to "signal" the glider: wing rock and pull the release. *Pulling the release is easier to do, so if the towplane rocks its wings for me, I will assess the situation before pulling the release.
>
> When driving a car, do you immediately swerve when something jumps out in front of you? *At a low speed this might work. *At high speed this results in a rollover. *Always, *think* before you act!!!
>
> -Tom

"Don't just do something, sit there!"

[[email protected]]

On Jul 22, 1:36*pm, 5Z > wrote:
> On Friday, July 22, 2011 6:42:31 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > I've had two engine failures with gliders on tow (blown front engine seal
> > and failed oil pump) and both times the glider released when I rocked the
> > wings. *Had they not, I'd have dumped them without concern of the terrain
> > below.
>
> Exactly! *If I get a wing rock, I'll think long and hard if pulling the release will put me in danger. *If, while thinking, the tow pilot dumps me, then the decision is made.
>
> The tow pilot has two (radio is the third) options to "signal" the glider: wing rock and pull the release. *Pulling the release is easier to do, so if the towplane rocks its wings for me, I will assess the situation before pulling the release.
>
> When driving a car, do you immediately swerve when something jumps out in front of you? *At a low speed this might work. *At high speed this results in a rollover. *Always, *think* before you act!!!
>
> -Tom

Tom.....

The wing rock means release now! Not to start thinking about whether
you fell like it or not. This is a trust between the glider pilot
and the the tow pilot...

You should have have already done all the thinking before take off
(energency plan) you shoud be ready for a rope break, or wave off, or
any other emergency and react quickly to the plan....

If I were a tow pilot, and I knew that when I give you the "get off
now" signal, that you are going to sit there and ponder for a while,
and worry about your safety, and not be concerned about my
safety...guess what? No tow for you!


Cookie

[[email protected]]

On Jul 22, 1:36*pm, 5Z > wrote:
> On Friday, July 22, 2011 6:42:31 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > I've had two engine failures with gliders on tow (blown front engine seal
> > and failed oil pump) and both times the glider released when I rocked the
> > wings. *Had they not, I'd have dumped them without concern of the terrain
> > below.
>
> Exactly! *If I get a wing rock, I'll think long and hard if pulling the release will put me in danger. *If, while thinking, the tow pilot dumps me, then the decision is made.
>
> The tow pilot has two (radio is the third) options to "signal" the glider: wing rock and pull the release. *Pulling the release is easier to do, so if the towplane rocks its wings for me, I will assess the situation before pulling the release.
>
> When driving a car, do you immediately swerve when something jumps out in front of you? *At a low speed this might work. *At high speed this results in a rollover. *Always, *think* before you act!!!
>
> -Tom

BTW......I know a couple of tow pilots who say it is not all that easy
to get to and pull the release during a real emergency.....also that
they may not be in a position to rock the wings either.

We had one tow pilot, who when I asked to do a wing rock, to show a
student...she would just simply put the tow plane into a
dive.......She said that is what she would do in a real
emergency...not release, not rock the wings...just establish a nose
down glide.....

I teach my students to release imediately if the tow plane starts
diving..

Cookie

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jul 22, 4:01*pm, "
> wrote:
> On Jul 22, 1:36*pm, 5Z > wrote:
>
> > On Friday, July 22, 2011 6:42:31 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > I've had two engine failures with gliders on tow (blown front engine seal
> > > and failed oil pump) and both times the glider released when I rocked the
> > > wings. *Had they not, I'd have dumped them without concern of the terrain
> > > below.
>
> > Exactly! *If I get a wing rock, I'll think long and hard if pulling the release will put me in danger. *If, while thinking, the tow pilot dumps me, then the decision is made.
>
> > The tow pilot has two (radio is the third) options to "signal" the glider: wing rock and pull the release. *Pulling the release is easier to do, so if the towplane rocks its wings for me, I will assess the situation before pulling the release.
>
> > When driving a car, do you immediately swerve when something jumps out in front of you? *At a low speed this might work. *At high speed this results in a rollover. *Always, *think* before you act!!!
>
> > -Tom
>
> BTW......I know a couple of tow pilots who say it is not all that easy
> to get to and pull the release during a real emergency.....also that
> they may not be in a position to rock the wings either.
>
> We had one tow pilot, who when I asked to do a wing rock, to show a
> student...she would just simply put the tow plane into a
> dive.......She said that is what she would do in a real
> emergency...not release, not rock the wings...just establish a nose
> down glide.....
>
> I teach my students to release imediately if the tow plane starts
> diving..
>
> Cookie

And so why is that tow pilot still towing gliders at your operation? I
would hope you (and the tow pilot) would want to teach and demonstrate
in-flight standard rock-off signals. if for no other reason that the
student will be towed elsewhere where tow pilots expect to use that
signal. This comment makes no sense in general, for example I see no
reason why a tow pilot would stick the nose down for a rough running
engine etc. if they just want to return to the airport and can
maintain altitude.

Darryl

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 7/22/2011 4:47 PM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Jul 22, 4:01 pm, "

>>
>> BTW......I know a couple of tow pilots who say it is not all that easy
>> to get to and pull the release during a real emergency.....also that
>> they may not be in a position to rock the wings either.
>>
>> We had one tow pilot, who when I asked to do a wing rock, to show a
>> student...she would just simply put the tow plane into a
>> dive.......She said that is what she would do in a real
>> emergency...not release, not rock the wings...just establish a nose
>> down glide.....
>>
>> I teach my students to release imediately if the tow plane starts
>> diving..
>>
>> Cookie
>
> And so why is that tow pilot still towing gliders at your operation? I
> would hope you (and the tow pilot) would want to teach and demonstrate
> in-flight standard rock-off signals. if for no other reason that the
> student will be towed elsewhere where tow pilots expect to use that
> signal. This comment makes no sense in general, for example I see no
> reason why a tow pilot would stick the nose down for a rough running
> engine etc. if they just want to return to the airport and can
> maintain altitude.

My concern is the glider will start to kite with the unexpected descent.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[150flivver]

On Jul 22, 6:01*pm, "
> wrote:
> On Jul 22, 1:36*pm, 5Z > wrote:
>
> > On Friday, July 22, 2011 6:42:31 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > I've had two engine failures with gliders on tow (blown front engine seal
> > > and failed oil pump) and both times the glider released when I rocked the
> > > wings. *Had they not, I'd have dumped them without concern of the terrain
> > > below.
>
> > Exactly! *If I get a wing rock, I'll think long and hard if pulling the release will put me in danger. *If, while thinking, the tow pilot dumps me, then the decision is made.
>
> > The tow pilot has two (radio is the third) options to "signal" the glider: wing rock and pull the release. *Pulling the release is easier to do, so if the towplane rocks its wings for me, I will assess the situation before pulling the release.
>
> > When driving a car, do you immediately swerve when something jumps out in front of you? *At a low speed this might work. *At high speed this results in a rollover. *Always, *think* before you act!!!
>
> > -Tom
>
> BTW......I know a couple of tow pilots who say it is not all that easy
> to get to and pull the release during a real emergency.....also that
> they may not be in a position to rock the wings either.
>
> We had one tow pilot, who when I asked to do a wing rock, to show a
> student...she would just simply put the tow plane into a
> dive.......She said that is what she would do in a real
> emergency...not release, not rock the wings...just establish a nose
> down glide.....
>
> I teach my students to release imediately if the tow plane starts
> diving..
>
> Cookie

[150flivver]

On Jul 22, 6:01*pm, "
> wrote:
> On Jul 22, 1:36*pm, 5Z > wrote:
>
> > On Friday, July 22, 2011 6:42:31 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > I've had two engine failures with gliders on tow (blown front engine seal
> > > and failed oil pump) and both times the glider released when I rocked the
> > > wings. *Had they not, I'd have dumped them without concern of the terrain
> > > below.
>
> > Exactly! *If I get a wing rock, I'll think long and hard if pulling the release will put me in danger. *If, while thinking, the tow pilot dumps me, then the decision is made.
>
> > The tow pilot has two (radio is the third) options to "signal" the glider: wing rock and pull the release. *Pulling the release is easier to do, so if the towplane rocks its wings for me, I will assess the situation before pulling the release.
>
> > When driving a car, do you immediately swerve when something jumps out in front of you? *At a low speed this might work. *At high speed this results in a rollover. *Always, *think* before you act!!!
>
> > -Tom
>
> BTW......I know a couple of tow pilots who say it is not all that easy
> to get to and pull the release during a real emergency.....also that
> they may not be in a position to rock the wings either.
>
> We had one tow pilot, who when I asked to do a wing rock, to show a
> student...she would just simply put the tow plane into a
> dive.......She said that is what she would do in a real
> emergency...not release, not rock the wings...just establish a nose
> down glide.....
>
> I teach my students to release imediately if the tow plane starts
> diving..
>
> Cookie

I don't "dive" but I do bunt over and begin a shallow descent while
simultaneously rocking the wings when I need the glider to release
now. If the situation is dire I'll pull the release myself. Simply
diving the towplane while a glider is on tow is a recipe for making
things worse.