Spoiler Signal

[[email protected]]

Perhaps we should consider teaching that the first thought with a
sudden signal (fan, wag, rock, ...) should be check your
configuration, particularly the spoilers. It should not take more
than a second or two. If the signal really is to release, there would
be a very slight delay to pull the knob, but it would avoid some bad
consequences, and the the tow pilot still has the ability to dump the
glider.

[Ramy]

On Jul 23, 11:15*pm, wrote:
> Perhaps we should consider teaching that the first thought with a
> sudden signal (fan, wag, rock, ...) should be check your
> configuration, particularly the spoilers. *It should not take more
> than a second or two. *If the signal really is to release, there would
> be a very slight delay to pull the knob, but it would avoid some bad
> consequences, and the the tow pilot still has the ability to dump the
> glider.

This sounds like a good idea, especially giving that the tow pilot may
also give the wrong signal under stress.
There really should be only one signal as suggested in another thread,
which means something wrong, close spoilers or release! But in any
case, radio call should come first, than climb to safe altitude (if
possible) before giving any signal. Safe altitude should be much more
than 200 feet, more like pattern altitude since a glider with fully
opened spoilers will sink like a brick.

Ramy

[150flivver]

On Jul 24, 4:59*am, Ramy > wrote:
> On Jul 23, 11:15*pm, wrote:
>
> > Perhaps we should consider teaching that the first thought with a
> > sudden signal (fan, wag, rock, ...) should be check your
> > configuration, particularly the spoilers. *It should not take more
> > than a second or two. *If the signal really is to release, there would
> > be a very slight delay to pull the knob, but it would avoid some bad
> > consequences, and the the tow pilot still has the ability to dump the
> > glider.
>
> This sounds like a good idea, especially giving that the tow pilot may
> also give the wrong signal under stress.
> There really should be only one signal as suggested in another thread,
> which means something wrong, close spoilers or release! But in any
> case, radio call should come first, than climb to safe altitude (if
> possible) before giving any signal. Safe altitude should be much more
> than 200 feet, more like pattern altitude since a glider with fully
> opened spoilers will sink like a brick.
>
> Ramy

I disagree. There should be an urgent, serious emergency type signal--
the wing rock, and a not-so-serious, advisory type signal such as the
rudder waggle. If you can't keep the two separated, then perhaps you
need to take up a different hobby where you're actions don't impact on
the lives of the tow pilot or yourself. I don't have the luxury of
getting the glider up to 1000 feet if I throw a valve at 200. It's
much more common for the glider to survive a release at 200 feet, than
a tow plane having a serious problem down there and having a good
outcome.

[Andy[_1_]]

On Jul 24, 5:07*am, 150flivver > wrote:

>
> I disagree. *There should be an urgent, serious emergency type signal--
> the wing rock, and a not-so-serious, advisory type signal such as the
> rudder waggle. *If you can't keep the two separated, then perhaps you
> need to take up a different hobby where you're actions don't impact on
> the lives of the tow pilot or yourself. *I don't have the luxury of
> getting the glider up to 1000 feet if I throw a valve at 200. It's
> much more common for the glider to survive a release at 200 feet, than
> a tow plane having a serious problem down there and having a good
> outcome.

I'd be interested in hearing from tow pilots that had a real in flight
emergency and used the wave off signal. It's always seemed to me to
be a bit like the "too slow" winch signal i.e. if you need to give it
then you're not in a situation to do so.

If there's time to negotiate I'll use the radio, if not I think I'll
be pulling the release.

Andy

[T[_2_]]

On Jul 24, 6:04*am, Andy > wrote:
> On Jul 24, 5:07*am, 150flivver > wrote:
>
>
>
> > I disagree. *There should be an urgent, serious emergency type signal--
> > the wing rock, and a not-so-serious, advisory type signal such as the
> > rudder waggle. *If you can't keep the two separated, then perhaps you
> > need to take up a different hobby where you're actions don't impact on
> > the lives of the tow pilot or yourself. *I don't have the luxury of
> > getting the glider up to 1000 feet if I throw a valve at 200. It's
> > much more common for the glider to survive a release at 200 feet, than
> > a tow plane having a serious problem down there and having a good
> > outcome.
>
> I'd be interested in hearing from tow pilots that had a real in flight
> emergency and used the wave off signal. *It's always seemed to me to
> be a bit like the "too slow" winch signal i.e. if you need to give it
> then you're not in a situation to do so.
>
> If there's time to negotiate I'll use the radio, if not I think I'll
> be pulling the release.
>
> Andy

I've never been much in favor of the wing rock with a tow emergency,
but I teach it, we demonstrate it and we encourage proper training so
glider pilots don't release on a rudder wag.

I've had one real tow problem and witnessed others. I had engine
vibration from a stuck valve at about 100ft, got the solo student in
the 2-33 to above 200ft and called over the radio for a release. Which
he did and we both returned safely. We teach 200ft rope break returns
to the airport. If the radio was jammed with other chatter, the wing
rock was next.

Other tow problems I have witnessed include a blown cylinder, the
glider pilot saw the puff of smoke from the tow plane, and almost as
instantly the tow pilot dropped his end of the rope, no radio call, no
wave off. Both returned safely.

Not on tow, but a broken aileron cable on the tow ship after release.
It would have been difficult to do the wave off. The pilot landed
safely in the desert with only a few punctured tires.

As a tow pilot and CFIG, I feel that if I have a true emergency, the
glider pilot will get one radio call, maybe, and then see the rope
dropped from the tow end.

I have used the wing rock to signal a release when the radio was
blocked by other chatter. When we tow a 1-26, we get at least 1000fpm,
so the 1-26 pilot cannot determine if we are in good lift because his
vario is always pegged. Other than what he feels in the seat of his
pants from the climb rate increase. So, with precoordinatio, "Hey tow,
tell me when to get off", I'll rock the wings above 2000ft AGL when
the climb-o-meter shows 1500fpm and increasing.

T
Tow Pilot
CFIG

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sun, 24 Jul 2011 06:04:28 -0700, Andy wrote:

> I'd be interested in hearing from tow pilots that had a real in flight
> emergency and used the wave off signal. It's always seemed to me to be
> a bit like the "too slow" winch signal i.e. if you need to give it then
> you're not in a situation to do so.
>
Slightly OTT, but....

In the UK the 'too slow' winch signal is simply the glider lowering its
nose. Some years ago it was wing rocking, but that was changed once it
was realised that this can cause tip stalls which are the the last thing
we want on the cable. Lowering the nose is perfect because its dual-
purpose, being both a pre-emptive corrective action *and* suggesting to
the winch driver that more power would be nice.

We still use the fish-tailing 'too fast' signal, though its really only
useful for a fairly mild, slowly increasing overspeed. If its more than
mild I want to be off quicker than most winches can slow down.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[[email protected]]

On Jul 24, 9:04*am, Andy > wrote:
> On Jul 24, 5:07*am, 150flivver > wrote:
>
>
>
> > I disagree. *There should be an urgent, serious emergency type signal--
> > the wing rock, and a not-so-serious, advisory type signal such as the
> > rudder waggle. *If you can't keep the two separated, then perhaps you
> > need to take up a different hobby where you're actions don't impact on
> > the lives of the tow pilot or yourself. *I don't have the luxury of
> > getting the glider up to 1000 feet if I throw a valve at 200. It's
> > much more common for the glider to survive a release at 200 feet, than
> > a tow plane having a serious problem down there and having a good
> > outcome.
>
> I'd be interested in hearing from tow pilots that had a real in flight
> emergency and used the wave off signal. *It's always seemed to me to
> be a bit like the "too slow" winch signal i.e. if you need to give it
> then you're not in a situation to do so.
>
> If there's time to negotiate I'll use the radio, if not I think I'll
> be pulling the release.
>
> Andy

I have had 3 real ones, all engine related. In all cases the glider
responded promptly and correctly.
I have done 2 rudder wags for spoilers out. One responded correctly
and fixed the problem. The second released.
Our club includes these signals in our Spring check.
Given all this, I will not do rudder wag until I have placed the
glider pilot in a position where misinterpretation will not be a cause
of an accident.
If I really need him off, it's wing wag and every man for himself.
UH

[Mike[_28_]]

"Given all this, I will not do rudder wag until I have placed the
glider pilot in a position where misinterpretation will not be a
cause
of an accident."

Now that is a good idea. If you are climbing at all don't wag until
well over 200' AGL. If the climb is that slow the glider pilot should
realize it and be checking his spoilers.

Mike

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jul 25, 6:35*am, Mike > wrote:
> "Given all this, I will not do rudder wag until I have placed the
> glider pilot in a position where misinterpretation will not be a
> cause
> of an accident."
>
> Now that is a good idea. If you are climbing at all don't wag until
> well over 200' AGL. If the climb is that slow the glider pilot should
> realize it and be checking his spoilers.
>
> Mike

That is SOP at many places, why it is not followed/emphasized to all
tow pilots I don't know.

Darryl

[Dan Marotta]

"Andy" > wrote in message
...
On Jul 24, 5:07 am, 150flivver > wrote:

>
> I disagree. There should be an urgent, serious emergency type signal--
> the wing rock, and a not-so-serious, advisory type signal such as the
> rudder waggle. If you can't keep the two separated, then perhaps you
> need to take up a different hobby where you're actions don't impact on
> the lives of the tow pilot or yourself. I don't have the luxury of
> getting the glider up to 1000 feet if I throw a valve at 200. It's
> much more common for the glider to survive a release at 200 feet, than
> a tow plane having a serious problem down there and having a good
> outcome.

I'd be interested in hearing from tow pilots that had a real in flight
emergency and used the wave off signal. It's always seemed to me to
be a bit like the "too slow" winch signal i.e. if you need to give it
then you're not in a situation to do so.

If there's time to negotiate I'll use the radio, if not I think I'll
be pulling the release.

Andy

I've only *had* to wave off one glider - when the front seal on the engine
failed, coating the windscreen with oil and filling the cockpit (Pawnee)
with smoke. I gave the wing rock and started a spiral down to the field.
Talking with the instructor after the fact and thanking him for the quick
release, he laughed and said he saw wingtips rocking in a cloud of smoke.
He released at the initial puff of smoke.

Dan

[Tom[_12_]]

Last year, I wrote articles regarding this and other topics which are
widely distributed through the SSA's Soaring Magazine:

"Preventing Launching Accidents" and "Preventing Landing Accidents."

Further, I presented the same topics at the FAA Safety Facility at
Lakeland Florida. These presentations (and others) are available on
DVDs and printed booklets from our web site, WWW.EGLIDER.ORG

Both the DVDs and the printed booklets are inexpensive and make
excellent source material for club safety meetings.

These two issues dominate glider accident statistics.

The real problem is getting people to take the few minutes to become
educated and to adopt the simple, life-saving practices that will save
their lives. The well-known 5 hazardous thoughts, Anti Authority,
Impulsivity, Invulnerability, Macho and Resignation dominate glider
accident causes.

I will be conducting several FAA approved, Flight Instructor
Revalidation courses begining in November. (First in Minden, Nevada,
Nov 12/13.) Any pilot interested in learning about safety issues and
standardized procedures can attend.

Tom Knauff

[Bill D]

On Jul 26, 8:14*am, Tom > wrote:
> Last *year, I wrote articles regarding this and other topics which are
> widely distributed through the SSA's Soaring Magazine:
>
> "Preventing Launching Accidents" and "Preventing Landing Accidents."
>
> Further, I presented the same topics at the FAA Safety Facility at
> Lakeland Florida. These presentations (and others) are available on
> DVDs and printed booklets from our web site, WWW.EGLIDER.ORG
>
> Both the DVDs and the printed booklets are inexpensive and make
> excellent source material for club safety meetings.
>
> These two issues dominate glider accident statistics.
>
> The real problem is getting people to take the few minutes to become
> educated and to adopt the simple, life-saving practices that will save
> their lives. The well-known 5 hazardous thoughts, Anti Authority,
> Impulsivity, Invulnerability, Macho and Resignation dominate glider
> accident causes.
>
> I will be conducting several FAA approved, Flight Instructor
> Revalidation courses begining in November. (First in Minden, Nevada,
> Nov 12/13.) Any pilot interested in learning about safety issues and
> standardized procedures can attend.
>
> Tom Knauff

Some thoughts for Tom Knauff and others...

Why do we have a wing-rock signal? The tow pilot could just
release.

There are two possible answers I can think of. First, it's a courtesy
"heads-up" signal to the glider pilot to start thinking about a
premature termination of the tow since it's going to happen soon no
matter who releases. Second, it's a request for the glider pilot to
release so the tow rope returns to the airport with the tug and can be
used again. Neither of these reasons are critical enough to require
an instant, thoughtless reaction from the glider pilot. If it's
really time-critical, the tow pilot will release without a warning.

Given there's a few seconds to think after a wing-rock, why not use
one of those seconds to check for open spoilers? If you've mis-
identified a rudder waggle, a spoiler check saves the day. If it's
really a wing-rock, you don't want the spoilers open anyway. Since on
most gliders the release is near the spoiler handle, your hand will be
near the release after checking the spoilers.

Spoilers open on tow is always a real life threatening situation.
Some spoilers-open aerotow experiments with Condor flight simulator
shows a 200' release with an attempted return to the runway almost
never works - it's the equivalent of an engine failure turnback with
an airplane. Even waiting until the tug turns back over the airport
at pattern altitude makes for a problematic landing. If the glider
pilot doesn't know the spoilers are open, it's unlikely a close & high
pattern will be flown.

At the risk of inciting the anti-technology crowd, I think there's a
good case to be made for an LED annunciator panel. Today's gliders
have enough electronics no one is likely to initiate a flight without
a fully charged battery. A simple spoilers open switch and light
circuit may well save a life or two. While thinking about an
annunciator panel, lights for unlatched canopy and tail dolly are also
possible. (The tail dolly switch would be a magnetic reed switch
inside the tail boom and a magnet on the tail dolly.)

[Dan Marotta]

Bill raises some good issues and, while I'm one of the "anti technology"
crowd, I'd install such simple circuits. I just never thought of such
things (slapping forehead).

He also mentions that a high and close pattern is unlikely with spoilers
untentionally open. I've always wondered why everyone does not always fly a
high and close pattern and use the spoilers to come down. This way the
pilot is much less likely to be caught by wind shears, sink, etc. When I'm
towing I fly my pattern high and close enough that I can pull it to idle and
not touch the power again until I need it to taxi to the ramp (or if I'm
caught by an unexpected gust). I often wonder where those who fly a B-52
pattern will land if they have a power failure (power plane) or unexpected
sink (glider). My Mosquito has superb dive brakes so I can land from any
altitude. I can also bring the tow plane down if I'm dumb enough not to
lock them for takeoff.


"Bill D" > wrote in message
...
On Jul 26, 8:14 am, Tom > wrote:
> Last year, I wrote articles regarding this and other topics which are
> widely distributed through the SSA's Soaring Magazine:
>
> "Preventing Launching Accidents" and "Preventing Landing Accidents."
>
> Further, I presented the same topics at the FAA Safety Facility at
> Lakeland Florida. These presentations (and others) are available on
> DVDs and printed booklets from our web site, WWW.EGLIDER.ORG
>
> Both the DVDs and the printed booklets are inexpensive and make
> excellent source material for club safety meetings.
>
> These two issues dominate glider accident statistics.
>
> The real problem is getting people to take the few minutes to become
> educated and to adopt the simple, life-saving practices that will save
> their lives. The well-known 5 hazardous thoughts, Anti Authority,
> Impulsivity, Invulnerability, Macho and Resignation dominate glider
> accident causes.
>
> I will be conducting several FAA approved, Flight Instructor
> Revalidation courses begining in November. (First in Minden, Nevada,
> Nov 12/13.) Any pilot interested in learning about safety issues and
> standardized procedures can attend.
>
> Tom Knauff

Some thoughts for Tom Knauff and others...

Why do we have a wing-rock signal? The tow pilot could just
release.

There are two possible answers I can think of. First, it's a courtesy
"heads-up" signal to the glider pilot to start thinking about a
premature termination of the tow since it's going to happen soon no
matter who releases. Second, it's a request for the glider pilot to
release so the tow rope returns to the airport with the tug and can be
used again. Neither of these reasons are critical enough to require
an instant, thoughtless reaction from the glider pilot. If it's
really time-critical, the tow pilot will release without a warning.

Given there's a few seconds to think after a wing-rock, why not use
one of those seconds to check for open spoilers? If you've mis-
identified a rudder waggle, a spoiler check saves the day. If it's
really a wing-rock, you don't want the spoilers open anyway. Since on
most gliders the release is near the spoiler handle, your hand will be
near the release after checking the spoilers.

Spoilers open on tow is always a real life threatening situation.
Some spoilers-open aerotow experiments with Condor flight simulator
shows a 200' release with an attempted return to the runway almost
never works - it's the equivalent of an engine failure turnback with
an airplane. Even waiting until the tug turns back over the airport
at pattern altitude makes for a problematic landing. If the glider
pilot doesn't know the spoilers are open, it's unlikely a close & high
pattern will be flown.

At the risk of inciting the anti-technology crowd, I think there's a
good case to be made for an LED annunciator panel. Today's gliders
have enough electronics no one is likely to initiate a flight without
a fully charged battery. A simple spoilers open switch and light
circuit may well save a life or two. While thinking about an
annunciator panel, lights for unlatched canopy and tail dolly are also
possible. (The tail dolly switch would be a magnetic reed switch
inside the tail boom and a magnet on the tail dolly.)

[Tom[_12_]]

Some thoughts for Tom Knauff and others...

Why do we have a wing-rock signal? *The tow pilot could just
release.


Response from Tom Knauff:

Well, let's see:

* Without a wing-rock signal all flight training manuals would have to
be re-written.
* The FAA would have to dream up some other item during flight tests.
* Glider pilots would have less to pay attention to during tow.
* Instructors would have less to teach - therefore earn less money.

* If the glider pilot insists on flying very much too high or too low
so I am running out of elevator control.
* Of course there are the less common items such as a less than
catestrophic emergency such as engine overheating when it would be
better if the falling-asleep glider pilot could assist by releasing.
* For those who ask questions such as this, it is a way for a tow
pilot to signal, "The lift is here, dummy!"
* When the glider pilot has jerked the towplane all over the sky by
inept flying, and the tow plane pilot has simply had enough of it.

Those are a few that come to mind.

Of course, if I have a real emergency, while piloting the towplane,
don't expect the courtesy of a "release now" signal. Your signal may
be the rope disengaging from the towplane.

Tom Knauff

[tstock]

How about a short mental check list for the wing rock? At least if
it's confused with a tail wag they will have checked the spoilers
first.

STAY

S - Spoilers?
T - Traffic? (A quick look before releasing)
A - Altitude for safe landing?
Y - You can release

Should take only about 3 seconds.