Etiquette in a Thermal

[Walt Connelly]

Okay, let's hear your views on what proper etiquette might be in a thermal. We all know the first man in decides the direction of the turn and we should all thermal at the same speed. The Glider Pilot Handbook seems somewhat unconcerned with the rules and etiquette and the internet information seems to be the domain of the hang gliders and para-gliders as to this subject. What say you my friends? (I think we have beaten the rudder waggle thing to death)

Walt

[Dan Marotta]

First glider sets the tone. I try to thermal just like I drive: Don't
cause anyone to change his direction or speed due to my actions. Simple as
that.


"Walt Connelly" > wrote in message
...
>
> Okay, let's hear your views on what proper etiquette might be in a
> thermal. We all know the first man in decides the direction of the turn
> and we should all thermal at the same speed. The Glider Pilot Handbook
> seems somewhat unconcerned with the rules and etiquette and the internet
> information seems to be the domain of the hang gliders and para-gliders
> as to this subject. What say you my friends? (I think we have beaten
> the rudder waggle thing to death)
>
> Walt
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walt Connelly

[BobW]

On 7/28/2011 8:15 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> First glider sets the tone. I try to thermal just like I drive: Don't cause
> anyone to change his direction or speed due to my actions. Simple as that.
>
>
> "Walt Connelly" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Okay, let's hear your views on what proper etiquette might be in a
>> thermal. We all know the first man in decides the direction of the turn
>> and we should all thermal at the same speed. The Glider Pilot Handbook
>> seems somewhat unconcerned with the rules and etiquette and the internet
>> information seems to be the domain of the hang gliders and para-gliders
>> as to this subject. What say you my friends? (I think we have beaten
>> the rudder waggle thing to death)
>>
>> Walt
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Walt Connelly
>

"What Dan M. said." Simple is good.

Play the mental games, & imagine scenarios. Say you're sharing a thermal at
the same altitude with one other, essentially identically-performing ship,
spaced 180-degrees across the thermal from him, and climbing essentially
identically with him. All is no-brainer until you decide he's not flying the
thermal bubbles in the more highly efficient way *you* would if by yourself,
which is to say - for the sake of discussion - he's not tightening his bank to
remain longer in the stronger upwellings, but instead flying like he's on
rails regardless of where the best lift is. Doesn't matter why he's doing it;
sooner or later you'll want to outclimb him, which usually means *you* have to
initiate a different course than he...whether to lure him into sink, or
out-turn him in a strong bubble, or whatever.

When you choose to 'go for it,' first thing is to not hit him (something the
Skyraider driver failed to get right), second thing is to implement Dan's
manner of thinking. If you want to implement a third - even *more*
conservative thought (as I strive to do) - it might well be to choose a
situation and flight path that completely rules out the possibility of the
other guy hitting you even IF he *tries* to while your belly is toward him
(meaning the time your fate is in his hands). Conceptually simple.

You can complicate things by considering the 'what ifs,' e.g.: what if you're
pretty cure the other guy is unaware of you (it happens...and not too
uncommonly in 'around the club field' settings!); what if the ships are of
'considerably different' thermaling characteristics; what if there are more
than 2 ships; what if there are only two but you manage to insert yourself at
some 'non-180-degree-apart' spacing; etc. Nothing changes conceptually,
insofar as avoiding/outclimbing the other guy(s) is concerned.

Regards,
Bob - KISS-ing is good/mindset matters - W.

[Tom Stock]

Walt Connelly > wrote:
> Okay, let's hear your views on what proper etiquette might be in a
> thermal. We all know the first man in decides the direction of the turn
> and we should all thermal at the same speed. The Glider Pilot Handbook
> seems somewhat unconcerned with the rules and etiquette and the internet
> information seems to be the domain of the hang gliders and para-gliders
> as to this subject. What say you my friends? (I think we have beaten
> the rudder waggle thing to death)
>
> Walt

I'd also like tips for entering a pre-established gaggle. Keeping other
gliders in sight is not too difficult if I am in the thermal and another
glider or two enters... but I have trouble entering with another glider and
ending up in the correct position (directly across from the other glider).
I have been practicing be entering very low as not to disrupt the gaggle,
but I find it hard to judge the entry point and bank to get into the
gaggle. I have been watching other pilots, and it seems they come in fast,
open brakes anf get behind a thermalling glider matching bank angle, and
then continue with brakes to slow down and sort of slip backwards into
safer position... maybe this is not actually what is going on... but thats
how it looks.

any advice appreciated.

[Tom[_12_]]

The FAA version of the Glider Flying Handbook is seriously flawed with
numerous errors affecting flight safety. Since it is in the public
domain, and with the help of other glider pilots, I published a
corrected version in 2010 with more than 1,400 editorial corrections/
changes. It is available as "The Glider Flying Handbook" from many
safety-minded gliderports and our web site: www.eglider.org

Tom Knauff


On Jul 28, 9:06*am, Walt Connelly <Walt.Connelly.
> wrote:
> Okay, let's hear your views on what proper etiquette might be in a
> thermal. *We all know the first man in decides the direction of the turn
> and we should all thermal at the same speed. *The Glider Pilot Handbook
> seems somewhat unconcerned with the rules and etiquette and the internet
> information seems to be the domain of the hang gliders and para-gliders
> as to this subject. *What say you my friends? *(I think we have beaten
> the rudder waggle thing to death)
>
> Walt
>
> --
> Walt Connelly

[Andy[_1_]]

On Jul 28, 9:22*pm, Tom Stock > wrote:

>
> I'd also like tips for entering a pre-established gaggle. * *Keeping other
> gliders in sight is not too difficult if I am in the thermal and another
> glider or two enters... but I have trouble entering with another glider and
> ending up in the correct position (directly across from the other glider)..
> I have been practicing be entering very low as not to disrupt the gaggle,
> but I find it hard to judge the entry point and bank to get into the
> gaggle. *I have been watching other pilots, and it seems they come in fast,
> open brakes anf get behind a thermalling glider matching bank angle, and
> then continue with brakes to slow down and sort of slip backwards into
> safer position... maybe this is not actually what is going on... but thats
> how it looks.
>
> any advice appreciated.

I have never used air brakes when entering a thermal and if I had to
I'd think I had really botched the entry. How to enter depends on the
situation but there is one, in my opinion, hard rule. You never join
in away that causes any other glider established in the thermal to
take evasive active or even to think they might need to take evasive
action.

When joining one glider at about the same altitude I do several things
- a) I'm looking for the other gliders in the thermal that I have not
seen yet; b) I'm looking around me for gliders joining with me that I
don't know about yet; and c) when I think I have the complete picture
I'm using pitch changes as required to change altitude, speed,
relative position, and time of the join-up so I arrive in the place I
want to be. Keep repeating a), b), c) remembering that joining safely
is far more important than gaining a second.

The dynamics of joining a larger group are much the same. Joining
wide and then working in slowly is probably good advice for the
inexperienced.

When in a thermal keep looking around for gliders joining, gliders
leaving, and the ones behind and above you that have you in their
blind spot. Use all the field of view your glider allows. I don't
fly gliders that don't allow me to look back and see the tips of the
tailplane and I scan back there in a crowded thermal. Also scan above
you so you don't climb into another gliders blind spot. If you lose
visual contact with a glider a quick radio call to ask if he sees you
may be appropriate. Of course you can't scan effectively in a thermal
if you wear a large brimmed hat or a cap with a peak. If you must
wear one of those please take it off while thermalling.

When leaving exit smoothly when your circle becomes tangential to the
desired course line. Don't be one of those guys that's circling left,
waits until 90 deg past the desired course line then cranks hard
right, totally oblivious to gliders outside and behind.

As to working the thermal it all depends who you are with. Two or
three gliders in a thermal at the same altitude can work very
effectively together to maximize climb rate if they are comfortable
with each others style. The same three gliders won't climb as well if
the 2 joining slavishly do exactly what the first was doing when they
joined unless the first has a very well defined core and has it
centered perfectly.

And please if you join a glider cranked up at 45 deg, obviously in a
good core, please don't fly an intersecting 25 deg banked circle and
knock him out of his thermal.

Andy (GY)

[Dan Marotta]

OK, Ok... Disregard what I said originally about not affecting anyone
else's path when entering a thermal. Here's what I *really* do:

1. Try to enter at the bottom of the gaggle. It's best to have at least
135 KIAS.
2. Smoothly execute a 6 g pull-up to 83 degrees pitch.
3. As the airspeed drops through 31 KIAS, smoothly apply full left rudder
to get the nose swinging down towards the horizon (I prefer left hammer
heads, you may prefer to go to the right).
4. Skillfully recover from the ensuing spin in 3/4 turn or less.
5. Slide gracefully into position at the bottom of the thermal.

Oh, did I mention that, if you're dumping water as you go over the top, the
other gliders will appreciate getting the bugs washed off their wings?

:-)

Dan


"Andy" > wrote in message
...
On Jul 28, 9:22 pm, Tom Stock > wrote:

>
> I'd also like tips for entering a pre-established gaggle. Keeping other
> gliders in sight is not too difficult if I am in the thermal and another
> glider or two enters... but I have trouble entering with another glider
> and
> ending up in the correct position (directly across from the other glider).
> I have been practicing be entering very low as not to disrupt the gaggle,
> but I find it hard to judge the entry point and bank to get into the
> gaggle. I have been watching other pilots, and it seems they come in fast,
> open brakes anf get behind a thermalling glider matching bank angle, and
> then continue with brakes to slow down and sort of slip backwards into
> safer position... maybe this is not actually what is going on... but thats
> how it looks.
>
> any advice appreciated.

I have never used air brakes when entering a thermal and if I had to
I'd think I had really botched the entry. How to enter depends on the
situation but there is one, in my opinion, hard rule. You never join
in away that causes any other glider established in the thermal to
take evasive active or even to think they might need to take evasive
action.

When joining one glider at about the same altitude I do several things
- a) I'm looking for the other gliders in the thermal that I have not
seen yet; b) I'm looking around me for gliders joining with me that I
don't know about yet; and c) when I think I have the complete picture
I'm using pitch changes as required to change altitude, speed,
relative position, and time of the join-up so I arrive in the place I
want to be. Keep repeating a), b), c) remembering that joining safely
is far more important than gaining a second.

The dynamics of joining a larger group are much the same. Joining
wide and then working in slowly is probably good advice for the
inexperienced.

When in a thermal keep looking around for gliders joining, gliders
leaving, and the ones behind and above you that have you in their
blind spot. Use all the field of view your glider allows. I don't
fly gliders that don't allow me to look back and see the tips of the
tailplane and I scan back there in a crowded thermal. Also scan above
you so you don't climb into another gliders blind spot. If you lose
visual contact with a glider a quick radio call to ask if he sees you
may be appropriate. Of course you can't scan effectively in a thermal
if you wear a large brimmed hat or a cap with a peak. If you must
wear one of those please take it off while thermalling.

When leaving exit smoothly when your circle becomes tangential to the
desired course line. Don't be one of those guys that's circling left,
waits until 90 deg past the desired course line then cranks hard
right, totally oblivious to gliders outside and behind.

As to working the thermal it all depends who you are with. Two or
three gliders in a thermal at the same altitude can work very
effectively together to maximize climb rate if they are comfortable
with each others style. The same three gliders won't climb as well if
the 2 joining slavishly do exactly what the first was doing when they
joined unless the first has a very well defined core and has it
centered perfectly.

And please if you join a glider cranked up at 45 deg, obviously in a
good core, please don't fly an intersecting 25 deg banked circle and
knock him out of his thermal.

Andy (GY)

[John Cochrane[_2_]]

On Jul 28, 11:22*pm, Tom Stock > wrote:
> Walt Connelly > wrote:
> > Okay, let's hear your views on what proper etiquette might be in a
> > thermal. *We all know the first man in decides the direction of the turn
> > and we should all thermal at the same speed. *The Glider Pilot Handbook
> > seems somewhat unconcerned with the rules and etiquette and the internet
> > information seems to be the domain of the hang gliders and para-gliders
> > as to this subject. *What say you my friends? *(I think we have beaten
> > the rudder waggle thing to death)
>
> > Walt
>
> I'd also like tips for entering a pre-established gaggle. * *Keeping other
> gliders in sight is not too difficult if I am in the thermal and another
> glider or two enters... but I have trouble entering with another glider and
> ending up in the correct position (directly across from the other glider)..
> I have been practicing be entering very low as not to disrupt the gaggle,
> but I find it hard to judge the entry point and bank to get into the
> gaggle. *I have been watching other pilots, and it seems they come in fast,
> open brakes anf get behind a thermalling glider matching bank angle, and
> then continue with brakes to slow down and sort of slip backwards into
> safer position... maybe this is not actually what is going on... but thats
> how it looks.
>
> any advice appreciated.

First look hard to figure out which way the gaggle is turning. It's
easy to get this wrong!

Then, aim well outside the circle, at least one radius outside. It's
hard to end up just on a tangent, and aiming to do so will usually
lead to blasting through the middle of the circle, which will lead to
many annoyed radio calls. If you're lucky. Aiming outside is also good
insurance against an errant glider that you didn't see.

Slow down before you get to the gaggle. Don't hit the gaggle and pull
hard, as that will send you straight up. Anyway, there is often a lot
of rising air around the core and you might find a better core 2-3
diameters away from the gaggle. So get it down to 60-70 long before
you get near the gaggle.

Brakes? This seems like a looney idea. Much better to slow down by
gaining altitude, but do it far from the gaggle so you're not pulling
up in to someone.

While approaching the gaggle, don't just focus on the three gliders at
your altitude. Look above and below -- there are often gliders marking
other better cores. Look for gliders above and below you converging on
the gaggle. Look to the side -- try to find the other gliders who are
converging on the gaggle. Your job is to find the gliders you don't
see, not stare at the ones you do see!

Other gliders converging on the gaggle are usually staring straight at
the gaggle, not looking for you. Gliders will often whizz right past
the gaggle because they don't even see it's there. Most pilots in the
gaggle will only lookto the inside of their turn about 20 or 30
degrees, and almost never up or out. Thinking about "where is it
likely that they can see, and where are they likely to be looking and
not looking" is useful.

Start turning well outside the gaggle, and, yes, well outside the
lift. Then slowly edge your way in to the gaggle where there is a free
spot. Radio calls are fine. As above, many gliders in the gaggle will
not be looking outside for you.

It often happens that your vario will not show the lift for the first
half turn. Go with the gaggle for the first turn -- often this is just
vario lag, and they really do have it centered. Also, trying to
recenter the gaggle on your first turn is a bit presumptuous. Let them
see you're there before leading them off to better lift.

When evaluating the gaggle look for bank angle, climb rate, and
consistency of their turns. Are they well centered in a good core, or
are they waffling around in joint fear? Often, you want to use the
gaggle as a backup option, and explore other parts of the cloud first
to see if you can find a better core. I often head upwind of the
gaggle, trying to find a better core, then drift down to the gaggle
and only use it if I haven't found something better.

Chasing a gaggle from below is frustrating. Often you will be low, see
a gaggle ahead and 1000' or more above, head right below it... and
find nothing. Welcome to soaring.

In the gaggle, you will find many pilots using way too little bank
angle. Getting by them is contentious. No matter what they say, many
pilots will wait for a 20 degree boater to wander off into the sink,
then tighten up and go inside him. Though the tight glider's belly is
to the slow glider, the slow glider will usually have his eyes glued
to the inside of the turn. This is controversial, as most pilots say
"don't do it." And many pilots do it. If you're boating around in a 20
degree bank angle and the thermal seems choppy, expect others to cut
inside you. If you choose to cut in, make it really decisive to
establish the maximum separation between you and the outside glider. A
radio call wouldn't hurt either.

Of course you're not even thinking of looking at your vario. The other
gliders are much better indicators of where the lift is good or bad.

When you figure out which side is better, you can gently lead the
gaggle over to it in small steps. Move your circle half a radius to
the good lift; they'll see you doing better and follow. Then keep
going. Moving a whole diameter is a very bad idea as then you have
head on traffic where the two circles intersect.

While in the gaggle, look occasionally up and out. Keep track of all
the gliders around you by looking back.

Exiting the gaggle is hard too. Don't just suddenly roll out! Look
carefully out and over your shoulder. Then roll out slowly but
deliberately so that someone behind you knows what you're doing. Don't
even think of this Moffat bash-through-the-core stuff. Nobody does
that anymore anyway, since netto varios showed us that thermals are
surrounded by lift not cores of sink.

Flying directly above or below another glider is a very bad idea
without hundreds of feet separation. People pull up or dive down, or
hit lift and sink. The guy above cannot see anything, and the guy
below usually isn't looking up.

Gaggle etiquette also applies in cruise. The gaggle will typically
cruise together to the next thermal. When cruising with a gaggle, you
cannot do sharp pull ups or push overs. You can't see who is there,
and they can't see you. If you want to change course or go to a cloud
or bird the others don't see, do it gently.

New pilots to contests might say "I just won't fly gaggles," but
that's not realistic. On weak days, you have to fly the gaggles to
stay up. And anytime you turn, others will join you. It's not that
bad, and eventually even becomes an enjoyable part of contest soaring.
But do follow the rules of the road.


John Cochrane
BB (now "Bad Back" but getting better!)

[5Z]

On Thursday, July 28, 2011 9:22:46 PM UTC-7, tstock wrote:
> open brakes anf get behind a thermalling glider matching bank angle, and
> then continue with brakes to slow down and sort of slip backwards into
> safer position... maybe this is not actually what is going on... but thats
> how it looks.

Never seen anyone waste energy by using brakes.

If I expect to arrive at the same altitude as the other glider, then I aim to be alongside and outside the other glider so I end up following him in in the thermal. Think of a 2 lane roundabout and the other guy's using the inner lane. Pull in so you're outside his turn and a bit behind, if he decides to leave, turn into his tail to take his spot, or as your energy bleeds off, slide in behind him.

If coming in fast, then overtake on the outside as you climb around and settle in on the opposite side and above. Always keep the other glider(s) in sight.

I consider thermalling to be a 50/50 proposition. I do half the avoidance, the other pilot does the other half (unless he doesn't, and I'm prepared for that as well).

A circling glider can generally be expected to follow the current circular path, go tighter, or looser, perhaps rolling wings level. So avoid that area. If you're worried about him turning into you, then give him a call "5Z, I'm on your outside", and he will respond "5Z...". No need to identify yourself. If he doesn't respond, then don't get close.

When circling close to another glider, I like to wave, and expect a wave back. Tells me the guy's got his head out of the cockpit. Do this at the first opportunity, then once a minute or two. If he doesn't wave back, he's not paying attention to you.

-Tom

[Walt Connelly]

Forty Five views and not one comment on etiquette in a thermal. Apparently this subject does not evoke the emotions of the waggle of ones tail.

Walt

[kirk.stant]

On Jul 28, 11:22*pm, Tom Stock > wrote:
> Walt Connelly > wrote:
> > Okay, let's hear your views on what proper etiquette might be in a
> > thermal. *We all know the first man in decides the direction of the turn
> > and we should all thermal at the same speed. *The Glider Pilot Handbook
> > seems somewhat unconcerned with the rules and etiquette and the internet
> > information seems to be the domain of the hang gliders and para-gliders
> > as to this subject. *What say you my friends? *(I think we have beaten
> > the rudder waggle thing to death)
>
> > Walt
>
> I'd also like tips for entering a pre-established gaggle. * *Keeping other
> gliders in sight is not too difficult if I am in the thermal and another
> glider or two enters... but I have trouble entering with another glider and
> ending up in the correct position (directly across from the other glider)..
> I have been practicing be entering very low as not to disrupt the gaggle,
> but I find it hard to judge the entry point and bank to get into the
> gaggle. *I have been watching other pilots, and it seems they come in fast,
> open brakes anf get behind a thermalling glider matching bank angle, and
> then continue with brakes to slow down and sort of slip backwards into
> safer position... maybe this is not actually what is going on... but thats
> how it looks.
>
> any advice appreciated.

One technique is to approach the gaggle at a tangent, slightly outside
their flighpaths. Gently pull up to slow down and match their speed,
then circle along the outside until you can slide into an opening in
the gaggle from the outside. This way, you don't have to open your
brakes (not a good idea) and can slowly ease up, slowing to the speed
of the gaggle, and wait for an opening to appear. Since you are
flying a longer path, the gaggle will be moving faster than you even
when you are at the same airspeed.

Note: DON'T get so involved in the gaggle that you stop clearing your
flightpath! This is a prime place to have a midair - if someone else
is trying to join at the same time!

Kirk
66

[Chip Bearden[_2_]]

One of the most dangerous times is not IN the thermal, but getting
there. When you're focused intently on the 3 gliders at the same level
you want to join, it's easy to miss the guy who's ALSO approaching the
same thermal from a slightly different angle. I've got a nice near
miss [as opposed to a bad near miss] in the flight logs from a
nationals where a high-time professional pilot type slid smoothly into
a crowded thermal...and completely missed me coming in from an angle
about 30 degrees off his. That the "miss" was literal and not just
figurative was because I saw him coming and pulled up and over him as
he bored into the thermal like a laser beam, merging neatly with the
crowd there.

Keep scanning, even--especially--as you get close to the thermal.
There's a pretty good chance that anyone else approaching the thermal
at the same time is focused intently on the gaggle, not on the gliders
coming into it. This is especially true locally and pre-start when
gliders are milling about but the incident I mentioned occurred on
course when one pilot found a good thermal close to a gaggle and
multiple gliders converged on him from several directions.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
USA

[tstock]

Wonderful.. have learned quite a bit from this discussion. Thanks.

[noel.wade]

I had a couple of people blast into the middle of my thermal and/or
dive for my thermal and pull up right in front of me at Logan this
year, and it was _not_ fun. I subscribe to the method that John
describes, and really wish that more people would do it:

Aim for a point *outside* the current thermal and you will often find
that you come closer in to it than you expect. Stay far enough
outside that other gliders are not afraid to continue their circle
(turning inside you), then as one comes past you try to duck in and
match his/her circle - you'll find yourself often at their 8-10
o'clock.

A couple of other thoughts about thermal etiquette:

1) For god's sake, BANK the glider! Haven't guys like Moffatt and
Striedeck been preaching this for decades?? Don't the contest results
over the last umpteen years show that people who climb the best end up
with the highest speeds and the farthest distances? Find the core and
get in it. If the thermal is narrow, get that ship up at a 45-50
degree bank. If you sense that the core is to the inside of your
current circle, try to get into it and stay in it! If you nurse a
shallow bank around the outer fringes, everyone is going to outclimb
you and wind up right on your ass. This is not safe for them or for
you.

2) Turning inside one glider is NOT the same thing as turning inside
several gliders at once. I mentioned this at Logan, but there was a
day when at least 4 gliders were stacked up behind a guy doing lazy 20-
degree-bank turns and we were all looking for an opening to pass him.
I was very cautious, and finally made a strong move to the inside.
But the guy behind me had gotten impatient with me and decided to try
to cut inside of BOTH of us. I'd already initiated my turn and was
watching the glider on the outside, when my peripheral vision caught a
wingtip skip coming from behind me and towards my canopy. Suffice it
to say, it was not a happy moment! Especially since the guy on the
outside was disappearing below my canopy-rail and I didn't have many
"outs" with a guy inside of me and a guy outside of me. Luckily the
pilot on the inside realized the issue and pulled hard; but it was
close for a moment there!

Bottom-line: With other gliders in the vicinity, you need to be both
considerate and vigilant.

--Noel

[Walt Connelly]

Thank you all for your input. For some reason I saw no responses to this post until tonight. Something must have been wrong with the site but I have found this information most helpful.

Now....... If I can just find some gliders in a thermal.

Walt