PowerFlarm at Uvalde?

[Dave Hoppe[_2_]]

I find it odd that there's no posts regarding the first-time use of
PowerFlarm in a US contest. Surely they're all flying with them.

[Rob Cluxton]

Dave Hoppe > wrote:
> I find it odd that there's no posts regarding the first-time use of
PowerFlarm in a US contest. Surely they're all flying with them.
>
>

It works well.

It does use up the batteries quickly though. 6 hours is about all I've
gotten out of it so far.
--
Rob
1K

[Evan Ludeman[_4_]]

At 04:58 09 August 2011, Rob Cluxton wrote:

>It works well.
>
>It does use up the batteries quickly though. 6 hours is about all I've
>gotten out of it so far.
>--
>Rob
>1K
>

Which suggests it's a bit of a pig, 300 mA or there about. Can't say I'm
surprised. The manual is rather coy about this, says only that a 500 mA
fuse should be used.

Frank has posted a picture of his glare shield installation at
soaringcafe.com, have a look.

Reading the manual affirms the conservative wisdom of our RC guys. This
device is not a "drop in" installation on my ship, or maybe on yours: if
you have a portable on order, better read that manual and understand the
location requirements. "MIRA" would have led to a lot of frustration for
the unprepared. That said, a hearty thank you to Rex Mayes and all those
thoughtful donors who are making the rental program go, as well to all my
friends who've queued up to order. I look forward to the day we're
(nearly) all flying Flarm, voluntarily.

I have a brick on order, myself.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

[Dave Hoppe[_2_]]

On 8/8/2011 11:58 PM, Rob Cluxton wrote:
> Dave > wrote:
>> I find it odd that there's no posts regarding the first-time use of
> PowerFlarm in a US contest. Surely they're all flying with them.
>>
>>
>
> It works well.
>
> It does use up the batteries quickly though. 6 hours is about all I've
> gotten out of it so far.


I wonder if the threat density has any effect on battery consumption? It
will be interesting to see how these work in a club/recreational setting.

[Paul Remde]

Hi,

Of course, the best solution is to supply 12V power to the unit through the
RJ45 connector or round power connector.

Paul Remde

"Dave Hoppe" > wrote in message
...
> On 8/8/2011 11:58 PM, Rob Cluxton wrote:
>> Dave > wrote:
>>> I find it odd that there's no posts regarding the first-time use of
>> PowerFlarm in a US contest. Surely they're all flying with them.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> It works well.
>>
>> It does use up the batteries quickly though. 6 hours is about all I've
>> gotten out of it so far.
>
>
> I wonder if the threat density has any effect on battery consumption? It
> will be interesting to see how these work in a club/recreational setting.

[Luke[_4_]]

On 08/09/2011 12:58 AM, Rob Cluxton wrote:
> Dave > wrote:
>> I find it odd that there's no posts regarding the first-time use of
> PowerFlarm in a US contest. Surely they're all flying with them.
>>
>>
>
> It works well.
>
> It does use up the batteries quickly though. 6 hours is about all I've
> gotten out of it so far.
Hi Rob,

I've heard there are issues with limited range (500meters) and
interference with both CAI and LX instruments.

Both my GPS antenas (LX and EW) are on my glare shield and do not
interfere with each other but from the reports I have heard I am
concerned that putting my PowerFlarm on the glare shield will not work.

Where are your GPS antenas located? 30cm away from GPS antennas AND the
compass is not realistic in most gliders...

Thanks for any info you may have,

Luke

[Chris Nicholas[_2_]]

For what it’s worth, I had interference it seemed with a Flarm GPS
aerial too close to my Volkslogger. I then put the Flarm GPS aerial on my
headrest instead of the top of the instrument panel coaming, and that fixed
it. On my Flarm (small Swiss type, not PowerFlarm), the GPS aerial came
with a long lead so it was easy to do that.

Chris N

>I've heard there are issues with limited range (500meters) and
>interference with both CAI and LX instruments.
>
>Both my GPS antenas (LX and EW) are on my glare shield and do not
>interfere with each other but from the reports I have heard I am
>concerned that putting my PowerFlarm on the glare shield will not work.
>
>Where are your GPS antenas located? 30cm away from GPS antennas AND the
>compass is not realistic in most gliders...
>
>Thanks for any info you may have,
>
>Luke
>

[Chris Nicholas[_2_]]

For what it’s worth, I had interference it seemed with a Flarm GPS
aerial too close to my Volkslogger. I then put the Flarm GPS aerial on my
headrest instead of the top of the instrument panel coaming, and that fixed
it. On my Flarm (small Swiss type, not PowerFlarm), the GPS aerial came
with a long lead so it was easy to do that.

Chris N

>I've heard there are issues with limited range (500meters) and
>interference with both CAI and LX instruments.
>
>Both my GPS antenas (LX and EW) are on my glare shield and do not
>interfere with each other but from the reports I have heard I am
>concerned that putting my PowerFlarm on the glare shield will not work.
>
>Where are your GPS antenas located? 30cm away from GPS antennas AND the
>compass is not realistic in most gliders...
>
>Thanks for any info you may have,
>
>Luke
>

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 8/9/2011 1:01 PM, Luke wrote:
> On 08/09/2011 12:58 AM, Rob Cluxton wrote:

> Where are your GPS antenas located? 30cm away from GPS antennas AND the
> compass is not realistic in most gliders...

How can the compass interfere with the GPS signal?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

[Luke[_4_]]

On 08/09/2011 4:59 PM, Chris Nicholas wrote:
> For what it’s worth, I had interference it seemed with a Flarm GPS
> aerial too close to my Volkslogger. I then put the Flarm GPS aerial on my
> headrest instead of the top of the instrument panel coaming, and that fixed
> it. On my Flarm (small Swiss type, not PowerFlarm), the GPS aerial came
> with a long lead so it was easy to do that.
>
> Chris N
>
>> I've heard there are issues with limited range (500meters) and
>> interference with both CAI and LX instruments.
>>
>> Both my GPS antenas (LX and EW) are on my glare shield and do not
>> interfere with each other but from the reports I have heard I am
>> concerned that putting my PowerFlarm on the glare shield will not work.
>>
>> Where are your GPS antenas located? 30cm away from GPS antennas AND the
>> compass is not realistic in most gliders...
>>
>> Thanks for any info you may have,
>>
>> Luke
>>
>
Thanks Chris

[Luke[_4_]]

On 08/09/2011 5:42 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 8/9/2011 1:01 PM, Luke wrote:
>> On 08/09/2011 12:58 AM, Rob Cluxton wrote:
>
>> Where are your GPS antenas located? 30cm away from GPS antennas AND the
>> compass is not realistic in most gliders...
>
> How can the compass interfere with the GPS signal?
>
I'm not sure but here is a quote from the manual:


"The PowerFLARM® and any associated aerials should be located as far
away as possible -- at least 30 cm (1 ft) -- away from any other GPS
aerial and the magnetic compass."

Luke

[Bob Cook[_2_]]

At 21:48 09 August 2011, Luke wrote:
>On 08/09/2011 5:42 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> On 8/9/2011 1:01 PM, Luke wrote:
>>> On 08/09/2011 12:58 AM, Rob Cluxton wrote:
>>
>>> Where are your GPS antenas located? 30cm away from GPS antennas AND
the
>>> compass is not realistic in most gliders...
>>
>> How can the compass interfere with the GPS signal?
>>
>I'm not sure but here is a quote from the manual:
>
>
>"The PowerFLARM� and any associated aerials should be located as far
>away as possible -- at least 30 cm (1 ft) -- away from any other GPS
>aerial and the magnetic compass."
>
>Luke
>

You guys ARE joking, right??

Cookie

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 8/9/2011 2:48 PM, Luke wrote:
> On 08/09/2011 5:42 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> On 8/9/2011 1:01 PM, Luke wrote:
>>> On 08/09/2011 12:58 AM, Rob Cluxton wrote:
>>
>>> Where are your GPS antenas located? 30cm away from GPS antennas AND the
>>> compass is not realistic in most gliders...
>>
>> How can the compass interfere with the GPS signal?
>>
> I'm not sure but here is a quote from the manual:
>
>
> "The PowerFLARM® and any associated aerials should be located as far
> away as possible -- at least 30 cm (1 ft) -- away from any other GPS
> aerial and the magnetic compass."

Maybe it's the aerials that interfere with the compass.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[Andy Durbin]

>>"The PowerFLARM� and any associated aerials should be located as far
>>away as possible -- at least 30 cm (1 ft) -- away from any other GPS
>>aerial and the magnetic compass."
>>
>>Luke
>>
>
>You guys ARE joking, right??
>
>Cookie

No one is joking but it is very disturbing to be told about this
installation constraint after having placed an order and sent in a
payment.

The constraint, if complied with, will make it almost impossible to fit the
unit in a glider equipped for contest flying.


Andy

[Jim Logajan]

Luke > wrote:
> On 08/09/2011 5:42 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> On 8/9/2011 1:01 PM, Luke wrote:
>>> On 08/09/2011 12:58 AM, Rob Cluxton wrote:
>>
>>> Where are your GPS antenas located? 30cm away from GPS antennas AND the
>>> compass is not realistic in most gliders...
>>
>> How can the compass interfere with the GPS signal?
>>
> I'm not sure but here is a quote from the manual:
>
>
> "The PowerFLARM® and any associated aerials should be located as far
> away as possible -- at least 30 cm (1 ft) -- away from any other GPS
> aerial and the magnetic compass."


The PowerFLARM would interfere with the compass, not the other way around.
The paragraph in the manual immediately following the quoted one makes this
clear:

"After installation, an inspection must be made to ensure that the
device does not interfere with any mechanical, electrical,
electronic (radio) or magnetic (e.g. compass) system, and this
fact must be recorded in the aircraft documents."

As a pragmatic matter, if the unit has to be placed within 30 cm of the
compass (and even if it isn't,) then simply turn it and all other
electronic flight equipment on and make a note of the magnetic deviation
using the usual procedure. It's a portable device, so such a note probably
woudn't be made on the permanent deviation card.

[Darryl Ramm]

Andy Durbin > wrote:
> >>"The PowerFLARM� and any associated aerials should be located as
> > > far
> >>away as possible -- at least 30 cm (1 ft) -- away from any other GPS
> > >
> >>aerial and the magnetic compass."
> >>
> >>Luke
> >>
> >
> >You guys ARE joking, right??
> >
> >Cookie
>
> No one is joking but it is very disturbing to be told about this
> installation constraint after having placed an order and sent in a
> payment.
>
> The constraint, if complied with, will make it almost impossible to
> fit the
> unit in a glider equipped for contest flying.
>
>
> Andy

This should not surprise anybody and I can think of a lot more to be
"highly disturbed" about in life than this. C'mon we really are not
whining about this are we?

You cannot undo the laws of electrodynamics. The compass is going to be
affected by components in the PowerFLARM and by electrical currents.
Cautious advice like this from a vendor is entirely appropriate for a
device that might well get put up on a glareshield near the compass in a
certified (even IFR) aircraft.

Now why is it a worry? How many of us rely on our compasses? To high
accuracy? The manual is just providing a suitable caution and covering
FLARM's ass.

What is actually much more important is the correct installation with
respect to the antennas being free of conductive obstructions/surfaces
as the manual warns. Still I just know we'll stumble across these units
and antennas buried behind panels with owners unsure why they don't work
properly.

Darryl

[Andy Durbin]

At 20:18 10 August 2011, Darryl Ramm wrote:
>This should not surprise anybody and I can think of a lot more to be
>"highly disturbed" about in life than this. C'mon we really are not
>whining about this are we?
>
>You cannot undo the laws of electrodynamics. The compass is going to be
>affected by components in the PowerFLARM and by electrical currents.
>Cautious advice like this from a vendor is entirely appropriate for a
>device that might well get put up on a glareshield near the compass in a
>certified (even IFR) aircraft.
>
>Now why is it a worry? How many of us rely on our compasses? To high
>accuracy? The manual is just providing a suitable caution and covering
>FLARM's ass.
>
>What is actually much more important is the correct installation with
>respect to the antennas being free of conductive obstructions/surfaces
>as the manual warns. Still I just know we'll stumble across these units
>and antennas buried behind panels with owners unsure why they don't work
>properly.
>
>Darryl
>

Who said anyone was "highly disturbed"? I didn't.

Can you cite any other GPS based gliding equipment that requires the GPS
antenna to be installed more than 30cm from any other GPS antenna? I don't
give a rat's arse about the compass but I do care that my other GPS
receivers (currently 3 of them behind or on the panel) continue to work and
there are reports from Uvalde of interference to other GPS based equipment.


Sure FLARM is covering their arse. If there are problems of interference
with other equipment the first question will be "Did you meet the antenna
separation requirements?"

Why would anyone buy a piece of equipment knowing that they could not meet
the installation requirements? Why would anyone build equipment with
strict antenna separation requirements and then make the radiating antenna
non removable thus preventing it's relocation?

PowerFLARM has to work with closer antenna separation that 30cm. If it
cannot, it needs a design change. If it can, the user manual needs to be
revised.

Andy

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 8/10/2011 2:41 PM, Andy Durbin wrote:

>
> Can you cite any other GPS based gliding equipment that requires the GPS
> antenna to be installed more than 30cm from any other GPS antenna?

I've been told by Cambridge to separate the 302 GPS antenna from other
GPS antennas by "more than a foot" and "as much as possible".

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

[Darryl Ramm]

[snip]
>
> Who said anyone was "highly disturbed"? I didn't.

OK you said "very disturbing". I am highly disturbed at all the
melodrama.

> Can you cite any other GPS based gliding equipment that requires the
> GPS
> antenna to be installed more than 30cm from any other GPS antenna?

Classic FLARM product documentation for years has talked about 25cm
separation. So hopefully this type of spec is not a surprise to many
folks who have been interested in FLARM for a while. And there are
thousands and thousands of classic FLARM systems flying and those pilots
have managed to live with 25cm separation specs and the very occasional
need to jigger things around to reduce any interference issues.

The Flarm transmitter is ~1Ghz (~915 MHz in the USA). GPS receivers are
very sensitive and operate on 1.2/1.5 GHz and when you mix these things
together in a close environment there is just always going to be some
chance of interference. And I am not as worried about the engineering of
FLARM products as much as I am that of other systems that might suffer
interference. There are many shoddy/badly designed and installed devices
out there in the wild wild west of glider cockpit avionics.

The need in the USA for a permanently attached FLARM antenna was the
FCC's requirement not something FLARM wanted to do.

> give a rat's arse about the compass but I do care that my other GPS
> receivers (currently 3 of them behind or on the panel) continue to
> work and
> there are reports from Uvalde of interference to other GPS based
> equipment.

> Sure FLARM is covering their arse. If there are problems of
> interference
> with other equipment the first question will be "Did you meet the
> antenna
> separation requirements?"

Just install the unit, in the unlikely event you do have interference
issues move the GPS antennas and fix it. FLARM just cannot engineer a
transmitter that is guaranteed not to interfere with any random GPS or
other electronic product out there. And the first response from any
vendor in that type environment (where they have no control over the
engineering and installation of the other boxes) had to be to tell users
to first try separating the antennas.

I expect many pilots may well replace one existing GPS receiver as they
want the FLARM enhanced NMEA data. That obviously does not remove need
for other receivers or backup receivers but if you do happen to end up a
having problems and have three existing GPSAnyhow just install the unit,
in the unlikely chance you do have interference issues move the GPSs
antennas and fix it. FLARM just cannot engineer a transmitter that is
guaranteed not to interfere with any random GPS or other electronic
product out there. And the first response from any vendor in that type
environment (where they have no control over the engineering of the
other boxes) had to be to tell users to first try separating the
antennas.

if you do happen to end up with problems and really have three existing
receivers and a fourth in the FLARM it may be time to clean up/simplify
your avionics!

> Why would anyone buy a piece of equipment knowing that they could not
> meet
> the installation requirements? Why would anyone build equipment with
> strict antenna separation requirements and then make the radiating
> antenna
> non removable thus preventing it's relocation?
>
> PowerFLARM has to work with closer antenna separation that 30cm. If
> it
> cannot, it needs a design change. If it can, the user manual needs to
> be
> revised.

The user manual could better explain the reasons these limits are there.


Darryl

[JS]

A note on the vertical antenna on the FLARM unit. I didn't like
looking at it so the first mod to the OzFLARM in the Nimbus 3 was to
remove the black plastic casing from the antenna and replace it with
Tygon tubing.
The second mod was to buy a stick-on antenna and put it on the canopy.
Anyone at Uvalde can probably have a look at VJS, but I don't think
Steve is using that antenna yet. Photo also on Soaring Cafe. That
antenna was available from Nigel Andrews (RF Developments) who built
the OzFLARM. Perhaps still is available, or perhaps from Swift
Avionics who do have other remote FLARM antennas.
Jim

[John Cochrane[_2_]]

On Aug 8, 9:00*am, Dave Hoppe > wrote:
> I find it odd that there's no posts regarding the first-time use of
> PowerFlarm in a US contest. Surely they're all flying with them.

Part of the reason is that google groups was dead for a while and many
(like me) gave up. rest day, google back, you may get more feedback.

The unit is slick and intuitive. Very professional-looking. Yes, it
chews up batteries. Also the battery indicator is not that reliable.
Put in new batteries every day no matter what. For rental, go buy a
bucket of batteries. For permanent installations, power it externally
or go for rechargeables. (Rental might want to go rechargeable too).

The major issue is where to put it. As expected the power flarm is a
tad bulky for a tape it in and go installation. That's why we clamored
for and got the brick.

The good news is that tape it in and go is possible and works
reasonably well. The rental program should work out fine. I got mine
the night before the contest and installed it in the half hour before
grid time.

It's a bit tougher on Schleicher gliders. The only place I've seen
anyone manage to put it (including mine) is sideways on the left hand
side of the glareshield. This isn't optimal since the GPS is pointing
at a 45o angle in level flight and 90 degrees when banked hard. (It
won't fit on the top of the glareshield)

I think a triangular bracket that would allow horizontal placement of
powerflarm above the lower left side of the glareshield or on the
canopy rail would make a good installation. Alas the two hardware
stores I went to were out of aluminum sheet and then I gave up on the
project. A Ram mount (if you're willing to drill holes) or an old
camera mount on the rail would be perfect. Some mechanical type needs
to make a bunch of clever brackets.

It will fit on top of a Schempp-Hirth glareshield but don't put it
directly on top of another GPS! If your Nav GPS is right under the
glareshield, the powerflarm will work great but you won't get a log.

I can't give details on performance. It picked up lots of gliders that
were close in thermals and running out on course, and I was especially
delighted to know about gliders behind, above and below, and off to
the side while running. I was able to connect PF to the clearnav and
see the "threats" on the CN display. Either the range is short, or
it's set not to show lots of other gliders.

The screen is visible, but not offset. Mount it so it's pointing at
you.

We have one report already of a near-collision averted by Flarm. A
pilot on tow heard the flarm go off, found the target, and quickly
told the towplane to alter course, which he did, saving the day.


John Cochrane

[Tony[_5_]]

On Aug 11, 3:14*pm, John Cochrane >
wrote:
> On Aug 8, 9:00*am, Dave Hoppe > wrote:
>
> > I find it odd that there's no posts regarding the first-time use of
> > PowerFlarm in a US contest. Surely they're all flying with them.
>
> Part of the reason is that google groups was dead for a while and many
> (like me) gave up. rest day, google back, you may get more feedback.
>
> The unit is slick and intuitive. Very professional-looking. Yes, it
> chews up batteries. Also the battery indicator is not that reliable.
> Put in new batteries every day no matter what. For rental, go buy a
> bucket of batteries. For permanent installations, power it externally
> or go for rechargeables. (Rental might want to go rechargeable too).
>
> The major issue is where to put it. As expected the power flarm is a
> tad bulky for a tape it in and go installation. That's why we clamored
> for and got the brick.
>
> The good news is that tape it in and go is possible and works
> reasonably well. The rental program should work out fine. I got mine
> the night before the contest and installed it in the half hour before
> grid time.
>
> It's a bit tougher on Schleicher gliders. The only place I've seen
> anyone manage to put it (including mine) is sideways on the left hand
> side of the glareshield. This isn't optimal since the GPS is pointing
> at a 45o angle in level flight and 90 degrees when banked hard. (It
> won't fit on the top of the glareshield)
>
> I think a triangular bracket that would allow horizontal placement of
> powerflarm above the lower left side of the glareshield or on the
> canopy rail would make a good installation. Alas the two hardware
> stores I went to were out of aluminum sheet and then I gave up on the
> project. A Ram mount (if you're willing to drill holes) or an old
> camera mount on the rail would be perfect. Some mechanical type needs
> to make a bunch of clever brackets.
>
> It will fit on top of a Schempp-Hirth glareshield but *don't put it
> directly on top of another GPS! If your Nav GPS is right under the
> glareshield, the powerflarm will work great but you won't get a log.
>
> I can't give details on performance. It picked up lots of gliders that
> were close in thermals and running out on course, and I was especially
> delighted to know about gliders behind, above and below, and off to
> the side while running. * I was able to connect PF to the clearnav and
> see the "threats" on the CN display. Either the range is short, or
> it's set not to show lots of other gliders.
>
> The screen is visible, but not offset. Mount it so it's pointing at
> you.
>
> We have one report already of a near-collision averted by Flarm. A
> pilot on tow heard the flarm go off, found the target, and quickly
> told the towplane to alter course, which he did, saving the day.
>
> John Cochrane

thanks for the input John. I'm going to be working on a shelf tonight
in the Cherokee. working on getting a rental (maybe the one you have)
delivered up to Llano for Region 10. will stock up on the batteries :)

[JS]

Most people own RJ45 (network) cables with one end that needs
cutting off. It is very easy to make a power cable from that "junk"
cable.
It's the same pin configuration as other loggers that use RJ45, like
Volkslogger. *
The timing ended up being a rush to get units to Uvalde. Perhaps
power cables will be supplied with all the rental units in the future.
There's already a circuit in my panel for the brick. Just need to
plug it in to the fused Anderson PowerPoles connector on the RigRunner
4008 labeled "FLARM", and find out where the antennas would like to
be.
Jim

* RJ45
Pin 1/2 Ground/Common/-VDC
Pin 3 Receive data
Pin 4 Send data
Pin 7/8 +10 to 28VDC
Pin 1 is on the left with the locking tab away from you and the cable
towards you.

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

On Aug 11, 11:55*am, JS > wrote:
> A note on the vertical antenna on the FLARM unit. I didn't like
> looking at it so the first mod to the OzFLARM in the Nimbus 3 was to
> remove the black plastic casing from the antenna and replace it with
> Tygon tubing.
> The second mod was to buy a stick-on antenna and put it on the canopy.
> Anyone at Uvalde can probably have a look at VJS, but I don't think
> Steve is using that antenna yet. Photo also on Soaring Cafe. That
> antenna was available from Nigel Andrews (RF Developments) who built
> the OzFLARM. Perhaps still is available, or perhaps from Swift
> Avionics who do have other remote FLARM antennas.
> Jim

Yes, to all that may be interested, come have a look at the antenna on
the canopy of my Nimbus. Too bad the little black one can't be
removed, Jim. FCC Requlations to keep us from putting some sort of
"high gain" antenna on there, and blasting out that power! But, there
is a second antenna connection location. For now, I am just living
with the stick. And the FLARM unit blocks very little of my view over
the nose. I can easily see all again by leaning forward a little bit.

Steve Leonard
Current owner of VJS

[T8]

On Aug 12, 12:00*am, Steve Leonard > wrote:
> FCC Requlations to keep us from putting some sort of
> "high gain" antenna on there, and blasting out that power! *

You're kidding, right?

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

On Aug 12, 5:24*am, T8 > wrote:
> On Aug 12, 12:00*am, Steve Leonard > wrote:
>
> > FCC Requlations to keep us from putting some sort of
> > "high gain" antenna on there, and blasting out that power! *
>
> You're kidding, right?

Nope. The antenna is permanently installed (my understanding, as
required by the FCC for them to grant approval), and removal will very
likely damage the unit. Note to all: PLEASE do not take this as a
challenge to remove without damaging! Warranty will likely go away,
as you are doing what I have been told is expressly forbidden in the
manual.

Steve Leonard
(I am a user, not a reader! :-) )

[Andy[_1_]]

On Aug 10, 6:26*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:

> The need in the USA for a permanently attached FLARM antenna was the
> FCC's requirement not something FLARM wanted to do.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

The documentation on file at FCC clearly indicates that the reason the
antenna is locked into position is that the connector type is not FCC
approved. It is my conclusion that FLARM chose this compromise to
avoid the delay of changing to an approved connector.

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/eas/GetApplicationAttachment.html?id=1491689

[JS]

As Andy points out, perhaps this is one of the reasons for the delay
on the "brick" version. If the "brick" doesn't come with antenna
connectors on the back, there won't be much point. Perhaps a retrofit
of the approved connector can be done on the set-top boxes... We can
hope.

I went with the "brick" as soon as it became a concept, knowing
PowerFLARM is taller than the OzFLARM and how little I like anything
above the glare shield - compass, mirror, top of IPAQ, Plastic Jesus,
etc.

Many people install the OzFLARM or Swiss FLARM in a cutout at the top
of the panel, making the top of the unit flush with or under the glare
shield. An LS-6 I sometimes fly (VH-KYL, in which Brad Edwards won 15m
at Uvalde Worlds 20 years ago) has it under the glare shield.

Any of the Australian competitors at Uvalde will have input on the use
of FLARM, as they have flown many "FLARM mandatory" contests.

Steve, don't let the authorities see the quick disconnnect on the
stick-on antenna. Likely non-approved.
Jim

[Darryl Ramm]

On 8/12/11 6:46 AM, Andy wrote:
> On Aug 10, 6:26 pm, Darryl > wrote:
>
>> The need in the USA for a permanently attached FLARM antenna was the
>> FCC's requirement not something FLARM wanted to do.
>
> How did you arrive at that conclusion?

> The documentation on file at FCC clearly indicates that the reason the
> antenna is locked into position is that the connector type is not FCC
> approved. It is my conclusion that FLARM chose this compromise to
> avoid the delay of changing to an approved connector.

To be clear (maybe to other readers) it is not an "FCC approved
connector" in that sense like they are using some cheap connector now
and need a technically better one, they require a connector that
prevents the user swapping the antenna for another non-approved one
(i.e. one different than the device passes FCC tests with). Its CFR 47
Sec. 15.203 - that rule exists because of the concern about users
substituting higher gain antennas and exceeding the radiated power and
other specs within the IMS band (in this case). The whole
fixed/removable antenna comes up in other FCC approved/unregulated
consumer devices e.g. with consumer FRS vs. licensed GMRS radios. In
most consumer (e.g. non-licensed user) devices this usually results in
the antenna or cable being permanently attached to the device. Some of
the FCC enforcement/interpretation of this stuff gets a bit head-scratching.

Darryl

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Aug 12, 2:01*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> On 8/12/11 6:46 AM, Andy wrote:
>
> > On Aug 10, 6:26 pm, Darryl > *wrote:
>
> >> The need in the USA for a permanently attached FLARM antenna was the
> >> FCC's requirement not something FLARM wanted to do.
>
> > How did you arrive at that conclusion?
> > The documentation on file at FCC clearly indicates that the reason the
> > antenna is locked into position is that the connector type is not FCC
> > approved. It is my conclusion that FLARM chose this compromise to
> > avoid the delay of changing to an approved connector.
>
> To be clear (maybe to other readers) it is not an "FCC approved
> connector" in that sense like they are using some cheap connector now
> and need a technically better one, they require a connector that
> prevents the user swapping the antenna for another non-approved one
> (i.e. one different than the device passes FCC tests with). Its CFR 47
> Sec. 15.203 - that rule exists because of the concern about users
> substituting higher gain antennas and exceeding the radiated power and
> other specs within the IMS band (in this case). The whole
> fixed/removable antenna comes up in other FCC approved/unregulated
> consumer devices e.g. with consumer FRS vs. licensed GMRS radios. In
> most consumer (e.g. non-licensed user) devices this usually results in
> the antenna or cable being permanently attached to the device. Some of
> the FCC enforcement/interpretation of this stuff gets a bit head-scratching.
>
> Darryl

So how is this going to work with a brick version, will there be an
external antenna or will the brick come with fixed internal or fixed
external antenna that limits our ability to put the brick where we
have space?

[Darryl Ramm]

On 8/12/11 4:23 PM, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> On Aug 12, 2:01 pm, Darryl > wrote:
>> On 8/12/11 6:46 AM, Andy wrote:
>>
>>> On Aug 10, 6:26 pm, Darryl > wrote:
>>
>>>> The need in the USA for a permanently attached FLARM antenna was the
>>>> FCC's requirement not something FLARM wanted to do.
>>
>>> How did you arrive at that conclusion?
>>> The documentation on file at FCC clearly indicates that the reason the
>>> antenna is locked into position is that the connector type is not FCC
>>> approved. It is my conclusion that FLARM chose this compromise to
>>> avoid the delay of changing to an approved connector.
>>
>> To be clear (maybe to other readers) it is not an "FCC approved
>> connector" in that sense like they are using some cheap connector now
>> and need a technically better one, they require a connector that
>> prevents the user swapping the antenna for another non-approved one
>> (i.e. one different than the device passes FCC tests with). Its CFR 47
>> Sec. 15.203 - that rule exists because of the concern about users
>> substituting higher gain antennas and exceeding the radiated power and
>> other specs within the IMS band (in this case). The whole
>> fixed/removable antenna comes up in other FCC approved/unregulated
>> consumer devices e.g. with consumer FRS vs. licensed GMRS radios. In
>> most consumer (e.g. non-licensed user) devices this usually results in
>> the antenna or cable being permanently attached to the device. Some of
>> the FCC enforcement/interpretation of this stuff gets a bit head-scratching.
>>
>> Darryl
>
> So how is this going to work with a brick version, will there be an
> external antenna or will the brick come with fixed internal or fixed
> external antenna that limits our ability to put the brick where we
> have space?

I don't think FLARM has got into specifics on this.

The Flarm transmitter antennas that the FCC really care about are not
"internal" on any FLARM unit (they have to point vertical, are too
large, and need to be clear of the components inside the box. They are
external--typically mounted on the case and outside the USA today there
are options for using a coax cable for remote mounting that antenna.

FLARM know what people have asked for/need here and I expect them to
have something that is remote installable. Small companies may not be
able to justify paying the setup/tooling costs for a custom RF connector
and matching antenna assembly. With different packaging of the brick
itself one option _may_ be a permanently fixed but "serviceable" antenna
coax connection. The sort of thing that comes "permanently" attached to
the unit but can be replaced/swapped for a longer one etc. by a
qualified installer able to open the box--and using standard connectors
inside the box.

Like I said, some of the FCC interpretation of this stuff can be a bit
head-scratching. So who knows exactly what Flarm will do, I have no
idea. I will worry about the exact details on how to instal my brick
once I see the final product announced/approved.

There are should be no issue with GPS receiver antennas or the 1090ES
receiver antenna, and the logical thing there is just have them be
external and removable using standard connectors (MCX, SMA, ...)

Looking forward to getting my brick...

Darryl

[Andy[_1_]]

On Aug 12, 6:46*am, Andy > wrote:

That link to the single document does not seem to work. The following
should allow the complete document set to be viewed.

http://tinyurl.com/3m3mjx8

Andy

[GC[_2_]]

On 12/08/2011 23:46, Andy wrote:
>
>> The need in the USA for a permanently attached FLARM antenna was the
>> FCC's requirement not something FLARM wanted to do.
>
> How did you arrive at that conclusion?
>
> The documentation on file at FCC clearly indicates that the reason the
> antenna is locked into position is that the connector type is not FCC
> approved. It is my conclusion that FLARM chose this compromise to
> avoid the delay of changing to an approved connector.

Absolutely. Actually, they tried to do it with bits of string and super
glue but too many people like you noticed (you are SO sharp!) and the
impedance was a bit high.

And then...total disaster! It has to be 30cm from all your other
antennae - AND THE COMPASS! If they were honest, trustworthy folks,
they would have made it a proper 12 inches instead of these uppity,
foreign "cm" things. You were right all along.

You'll also find that the current Power Flarms are just paper models
with a clockwork mechanism inside giving random target information that
they hope will fool most people until they can all go off on a holiday
to the Virgin Islands with their ill-gotten gains.

For God's sake give it a rest! Pick, pick. Pick, pick. Pick, pick, pick.

NOTHING Flarm ever does will make you happy. The thousands of satisfied
users all around the world who've had no trouble making it work for 5
years and think it's a brilliant piece of kit are a complete figment of
Flarm's imagination used only for marketing purposes in the USA to suck
in poor, innocent victims like you.

Take my advice. DON'T BUY ONE! You'll never regret it.

Just stop writing about something you clearly dislike intensely, have no
interest in and will never buy - and give us all a break.

Darryl - please - stop replying to his inane posts! It just encourages him.

GC

[Andy[_1_]]

On Aug 16, 12:36*am, GC > wrote:

> Just stop writing about something you clearly dislike intensely, have no
> interest in and will never buy

You are wrong about all of this. I have 2 on order.