Region 12 contest cancelled ....

[Ron Gleason]

Just saw on the SSA website that the R12 contest has been cancelled.
Anyone know the story and reason(s)? Just curious as I was thinking
of attending at one point but could not rearrange my schedule

Ron Gleason

[Justin Rizor]

On Aug 28, 4:36*pm, Ron Gleason > wrote:
> Just saw on the SSA website that the R12 contest has been cancelled.
> Anyone know the story and reason(s)? *Just curious as I was thinking
> of attending at one point but could not rearrange my schedule
>
> Ron Gleason


Not enough interest is what I was I told.

[JS]

There was quite a collection of gliders at Inyokern this weekend. From
SGS1-26 to ASH25Mi.
Jim

[CindyB[_2_]]

On Aug 28, 11:00*pm, JS > wrote:
> There was quite a collection of gliders at Inyokern this weekend. From
> SGS1-26 to ASH25Mi.
> Jim

Jim, Ron, et al.

Regardless of how many recreational flyers show up on a widely-
announced,
good-forecast-for-soaring weekend, that doesn't mean pilots will
commit money or
intent at least two weeks in advance to enter a competition.

Organizers invested time and planning energy, distributed entry
information, tried to entreat
potential pilots by offering mentoring and additional social, teaching
and fun events
concurrently, and STILL couldn't get more than ten pilots to express
interest.

Facing the expenses of importing tow planes, staff, and sanction and
insurance fees,
the willing-to-work volunteers were disappointed and had to call it
off. I am sorry for
their effort and disappointment. Having run the event for eighteen
years, it was not a huge
surprise to me that the commitment was soft.

Region 12 is blessed with many sites, and much generous soaring
weather. My personal
view is that the OLC has changed the sense of competition in our
Region. Pilots can fly from
various sites, on various weekends or weekdays, and still have a sense
of ranking and
camaraderie and poking fun with each other -- in "competition". This
decentralized 'racing'
allows each pilot and various L/Ds to fly with ZERO entrance fees
( have YOU made your smiley face
donation to OLC?), nearly zero complexity, with the variety of loggers
already in hand, zero sense
of risk in tasking ( go where you want, when you want), and still be
part of "the game".

This decentralized racing is NOT the same as a one-site, five-day
event in any sense.
Contests should not be viewed as the evil, glider wrecking gatherings
as they are labeled.
Tasking is moderate. Turn area circles allow pilots to adjust their
time aloft. In several instances,
participation is so soft that the handicapped concept is applied to
both Sports and FAI classes
(something that was done first in Region 12). The opportunity for
flying "with" other pilots, to
improve your own efficiency cannot be duplicated in OLC flying.

Worried about flight safety? Midairs? Landouts?
Truthfully, I came closer to a midair on a straight-out XC flight last
year than I had in
many years of Sports Class contesting. As usual, I was the one to
make the "Avoid".
Vigilance is the watchword, in all flights.
Landouts? Heck, I hold the shortest from home departing flight
landout award,
at under three miles. The contest environment holds no more risk of
landout damage than
any other soaring flight. Either you keep glide-slope discipline to a
safe place, or you don't.
Either you perfect spot landings before contesting, or you don't.

There can be issues of social inclusion or I'm-just-scoresheet-filler
at some events.
I think Larry, Walt and Micki were working hard to avoid that at
Region 12.
Let's hope we have another group of volunteers step forward to try to
offer a fun
time for next season. And I hope we have more pilots take the
opportunity to "play".

Thank you, Walt, Larry, Ian, Micki for offering the event. Thanks,
Tom, for your
coordination with the airport staff and airspace. Thanks Sierra
Soaring for being willing
to be invaded at a great soaring site.

Best wishes,

Cindy B
Region 12 Director

[JJ Sinclair[_2_]]

On Aug 31, 9:17*am, CindyB > wrote:
> On Aug 28, 11:00*pm, JS > wrote:
>
> > There was quite a collection of gliders at Inyokern this weekend. From
> > SGS1-26 to ASH25Mi.
> > Jim
>
> Jim, Ron, et al.
>
> Regardless of how many recreational flyers show up on a widely-
> announced,
> good-forecast-for-soaring weekend, *that doesn't mean pilots will
> commit money or
> intent at least two weeks in advance to enter a competition.
>
> Organizers invested time and planning energy, distributed entry
> information, tried to entreat
> potential pilots by offering mentoring and additional social, teaching
> and fun events
> concurrently, and STILL couldn't get more than ten pilots to express
> interest.
>
> Facing the expenses of importing tow planes, staff, and sanction and
> insurance fees,
> the willing-to-work volunteers were disappointed and had to call it
> off. *I am sorry for
> their effort and disappointment. *Having run the event for eighteen
> years, it was not a huge
> surprise to me that the commitment was soft.
>
> Region 12 is blessed with many sites, and much generous soaring
> weather. *My personal
> view is that the OLC has changed the sense of competition in our
> Region. *Pilots can fly from
> various sites, on various weekends or weekdays, and still have a sense
> of ranking and
> camaraderie and poking fun with each other -- *in "competition". *This
> decentralized 'racing'
> allows each pilot and various L/Ds to fly with ZERO entrance fees
> ( have YOU made your smiley face
> donation to OLC?), nearly zero complexity, with the variety of loggers
> already in hand, zero sense
> of risk in tasking ( go where you want, when you want), and still be
> part of "the game".
>
> This decentralized racing is NOT the same as a one-site, five-day
> event in any sense.
> Contests should not be viewed as the evil, glider wrecking gatherings
> as they are labeled.
> Tasking is moderate. Turn area circles allow pilots to adjust their
> time aloft. *In several instances,
> participation is so soft that the handicapped concept is applied to
> both Sports and FAI classes
> (something that was done first in Region 12). *The opportunity for
> flying "with" other pilots, to
> improve your own efficiency cannot be duplicated in OLC flying.
>
> Worried about flight safety? *Midairs? Landouts?
> Truthfully, I came closer to a midair on a straight-out XC flight last
> year than I had in
> many years of Sports Class contesting. *As usual, I was the one to
> make the "Avoid".
> Vigilance is the watchword, in all flights.
> Landouts? *Heck, I hold the shortest from home departing flight
> landout award,
> at under three miles. *The contest environment holds no more risk of
> landout damage than
> any other soaring flight. *Either you keep glide-slope discipline to a
> safe place, or you don't.
> Either you perfect spot landings before contesting, or you don't.
>
> There can be issues of social inclusion or I'm-just-scoresheet-filler
> at some events.
> I think Larry, Walt and Micki were working hard to avoid that at
> Region 12.
> Let's hope we have another group of volunteers step forward to try to
> offer a fun
> time for next season. *And I hope we have more pilots take the
> opportunity to "play".
>
> Thank you, Walt, Larry, Ian, Micki for offering the event. Thanks,
> Tom, for your
> coordination with the airport staff and airspace. *Thanks Sierra
> Soaring for being willing
> to be invaded at a great soaring site.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Cindy B
> Region 12 Director

Cindy,
When I asked my crew (aka wife) if she would consider going back to
Inyokern, she told me there was no way she would go back to that arm-
pit of a place. See did say that Bishop would be OK with her.
Something to think about for next year,
JJ

[Mike the Strike]

On Aug 31, 9:40*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> On Aug 31, 9:17*am, CindyB > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 28, 11:00*pm, JS > wrote:
>
> > > There was quite a collection of gliders at Inyokern this weekend. From
> > > SGS1-26 to ASH25Mi.
> > > Jim
>
> > Jim, Ron, et al.
>
> > Regardless of how many recreational flyers show up on a widely-
> > announced,
> > good-forecast-for-soaring weekend, *that doesn't mean pilots will
> > commit money or
> > intent at least two weeks in advance to enter a competition.
>
> > Organizers invested time and planning energy, distributed entry
> > information, tried to entreat
> > potential pilots by offering mentoring and additional social, teaching
> > and fun events
> > concurrently, and STILL couldn't get more than ten pilots to express
> > interest.
>
> > Facing the expenses of importing tow planes, staff, and sanction and
> > insurance fees,
> > the willing-to-work volunteers were disappointed and had to call it
> > off. *I am sorry for
> > their effort and disappointment. *Having run the event for eighteen
> > years, it was not a huge
> > surprise to me that the commitment was soft.
>
> > Region 12 is blessed with many sites, and much generous soaring
> > weather. *My personal
> > view is that the OLC has changed the sense of competition in our
> > Region. *Pilots can fly from
> > various sites, on various weekends or weekdays, and still have a sense
> > of ranking and
> > camaraderie and poking fun with each other -- *in "competition". *This
> > decentralized 'racing'
> > allows each pilot and various L/Ds to fly with ZERO entrance fees
> > ( have YOU made your smiley face
> > donation to OLC?), nearly zero complexity, with the variety of loggers
> > already in hand, zero sense
> > of risk in tasking ( go where you want, when you want), and still be
> > part of "the game".
>
> > This decentralized racing is NOT the same as a one-site, five-day
> > event in any sense.
> > Contests should not be viewed as the evil, glider wrecking gatherings
> > as they are labeled.
> > Tasking is moderate. Turn area circles allow pilots to adjust their
> > time aloft. *In several instances,
> > participation is so soft that the handicapped concept is applied to
> > both Sports and FAI classes
> > (something that was done first in Region 12). *The opportunity for
> > flying "with" other pilots, to
> > improve your own efficiency cannot be duplicated in OLC flying.
>
> > Worried about flight safety? *Midairs? Landouts?
> > Truthfully, I came closer to a midair on a straight-out XC flight last
> > year than I had in
> > many years of Sports Class contesting. *As usual, I was the one to
> > make the "Avoid".
> > Vigilance is the watchword, in all flights.
> > Landouts? *Heck, I hold the shortest from home departing flight
> > landout award,
> > at under three miles. *The contest environment holds no more risk of
> > landout damage than
> > any other soaring flight. *Either you keep glide-slope discipline to a
> > safe place, or you don't.
> > Either you perfect spot landings before contesting, or you don't.
>
> > There can be issues of social inclusion or I'm-just-scoresheet-filler
> > at some events.
> > I think Larry, Walt and Micki were working hard to avoid that at
> > Region 12.
> > Let's hope we have another group of volunteers step forward to try to
> > offer a fun
> > time for next season. *And I hope we have more pilots take the
> > opportunity to "play".
>
> > Thank you, Walt, Larry, Ian, Micki for offering the event. Thanks,
> > Tom, for your
> > coordination with the airport staff and airspace. *Thanks Sierra
> > Soaring for being willing
> > to be invaded at a great soaring site.
>
> > Best wishes,
>
> > Cindy B
> > Region 12 Director
>
> Cindy,
> When I asked my crew (aka wife) if she would consider going back to
> Inyokern, she told me there was no way she would go back to that arm-
> pit of a place. See did say that Bishop would be OK with her.
> Something to think about for next year,
> JJ

I made the same mistake - took my wife to Hobbs one year. You should
read what the Lonely Planet Guide has to say about places before you
go. Their entry on Hobbs is priceless, quoted roughly from memory...
"Hobbs has a reputation among glider pilots as a good location for
soaring, but if you are not into gliders, there is no reason to go
there"

Mike

[Ron Gleason]

On Aug 31, 10:17*am, CindyB > wrote:
> On Aug 28, 11:00*pm, JS > wrote:
>
> > There was quite a collection of gliders at Inyokern this weekend. From
> > SGS1-26 to ASH25Mi.
> > Jim
>
> Jim, Ron, et al.
>
> Regardless of how many recreational flyers show up on a widely-
> announced,
> good-forecast-for-soaring weekend, *that doesn't mean pilots will
> commit money or
> intent at least two weeks in advance to enter a competition.
>
> Organizers invested time and planning energy, distributed entry
> information, tried to entreat
> potential pilots by offering mentoring and additional social, teaching
> and fun events
> concurrently, and STILL couldn't get more than ten pilots to express
> interest.
>
> Facing the expenses of importing tow planes, staff, and sanction and
> insurance fees,
> the willing-to-work volunteers were disappointed and had to call it
> off. *I am sorry for
> their effort and disappointment. *Having run the event for eighteen
> years, it was not a huge
> surprise to me that the commitment was soft.
>
> Region 12 is blessed with many sites, and much generous soaring
> weather. *My personal
> view is that the OLC has changed the sense of competition in our
> Region. *Pilots can fly from
> various sites, on various weekends or weekdays, and still have a sense
> of ranking and
> camaraderie and poking fun with each other -- *in "competition". *This
> decentralized 'racing'
> allows each pilot and various L/Ds to fly with ZERO entrance fees
> ( have YOU made your smiley face
> donation to OLC?), nearly zero complexity, with the variety of loggers
> already in hand, zero sense
> of risk in tasking ( go where you want, when you want), and still be
> part of "the game".
>
> This decentralized racing is NOT the same as a one-site, five-day
> event in any sense.
> Contests should not be viewed as the evil, glider wrecking gatherings
> as they are labeled.
> Tasking is moderate. Turn area circles allow pilots to adjust their
> time aloft. *In several instances,
> participation is so soft that the handicapped concept is applied to
> both Sports and FAI classes
> (something that was done first in Region 12). *The opportunity for
> flying "with" other pilots, to
> improve your own efficiency cannot be duplicated in OLC flying.
>
> Worried about flight safety? *Midairs? Landouts?
> Truthfully, I came closer to a midair on a straight-out XC flight last
> year than I had in
> many years of Sports Class contesting. *As usual, I was the one to
> make the "Avoid".
> Vigilance is the watchword, in all flights.
> Landouts? *Heck, I hold the shortest from home departing flight
> landout award,
> at under three miles. *The contest environment holds no more risk of
> landout damage than
> any other soaring flight. *Either you keep glide-slope discipline to a
> safe place, or you don't.
> Either you perfect spot landings before contesting, or you don't.
>
> There can be issues of social inclusion or I'm-just-scoresheet-filler
> at some events.
> I think Larry, Walt and Micki were working hard to avoid that at
> Region 12.
> Let's hope we have another group of volunteers step forward to try to
> offer a fun
> time for next season. *And I hope we have more pilots take the
> opportunity to "play".
>
> Thank you, Walt, Larry, Ian, Micki for offering the event. Thanks,
> Tom, for your
> coordination with the airport staff and airspace. *Thanks Sierra
> Soaring for being willing
> to be invaded at a great soaring site.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Cindy B
> Region 12 Director

I understand the efforts needed to organize and hold a competition. I
hope we see competitions at this site and others in the future. We
need more sites holding competitions, especially west of the
Mississippi!

Thanks to everyone who contributed

[glidergeek]

On Aug 31, 9:17*am, CindyB > wrote:
> On Aug 28, 11:00*pm, JS > wrote:
>
> > There was quite a collection of gliders at Inyokern this weekend. From
> > SGS1-26 to ASH25Mi.
> > Jim
>
> Jim, Ron, et al.
>
> Regardless of how many recreational flyers show up on a widely-
> announced,
> good-forecast-for-soaring weekend, *that doesn't mean pilots will
> commit money or
> intent at least two weeks in advance to enter a competition.
>
> Organizers invested time and planning energy, distributed entry
> information, tried to entreat
> potential pilots by offering mentoring and additional social, teaching
> and fun events
> concurrently, and STILL couldn't get more than ten pilots to express
> interest.
>
> Facing the expenses of importing tow planes, staff, and sanction and
> insurance fees,
> the willing-to-work volunteers were disappointed and had to call it
> off. *I am sorry for
> their effort and disappointment. *Having run the event for eighteen
> years, it was not a huge
> surprise to me that the commitment was soft.
>
> Region 12 is blessed with many sites, and much generous soaring
> weather. *My personal
> view is that the OLC has changed the sense of competition in our
> Region. *Pilots can fly from
> various sites, on various weekends or weekdays, and still have a sense
> of ranking and
> camaraderie and poking fun with each other -- *in "competition". *This
> decentralized 'racing'
> allows each pilot and various L/Ds to fly with ZERO entrance fees
> ( have YOU made your smiley face
> donation to OLC?), nearly zero complexity, with the variety of loggers
> already in hand, zero sense
> of risk in tasking ( go where you want, when you want), and still be
> part of "the game".
>
> This decentralized racing is NOT the same as a one-site, five-day
> event in any sense.
> Contests should not be viewed as the evil, glider wrecking gatherings
> as they are labeled.
> Tasking is moderate. Turn area circles allow pilots to adjust their
> time aloft. *In several instances,
> participation is so soft that the handicapped concept is applied to
> both Sports and FAI classes
> (something that was done first in Region 12). *The opportunity for
> flying "with" other pilots, to
> improve your own efficiency cannot be duplicated in OLC flying.
>
> Worried about flight safety? *Midairs? Landouts?
> Truthfully, I came closer to a midair on a straight-out XC flight last
> year than I had in
> many years of Sports Class contesting. *As usual, I was the one to
> make the "Avoid".
> Vigilance is the watchword, in all flights.
> Landouts? *Heck, I hold the shortest from home departing flight
> landout award,
> at under three miles. *The contest environment holds no more risk of
> landout damage than
> any other soaring flight. *Either you keep glide-slope discipline to a
> safe place, or you don't.
> Either you perfect spot landings before contesting, or you don't.
>
> There can be issues of social inclusion or I'm-just-scoresheet-filler
> at some events.
> I think Larry, Walt and Micki were working hard to avoid that at
> Region 12.
> Let's hope we have another group of volunteers step forward to try to
> offer a fun
> time for next season. *And I hope we have more pilots take the
> opportunity to "play".
>
> Thank you, Walt, Larry, Ian, Micki for offering the event. Thanks,
> Tom, for your
> coordination with the airport staff and airspace. *Thanks Sierra
> Soaring for being willing
> to be invaded at a great soaring site.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Cindy B
> Region 12 Director

You're spot on Cindy as usual. Region 12 held a contest I think it was
1996 or 97 at IYK It was my second year flying glider and I was amazed
at the participation must have been 30-35 gliders involved. There is
now alot of apathy in the sport especially here out west. It doesn't
matter where the contest is suggested Cal City, Warner Springs, IYK
most pilots just don't care to compete. The question is why? JJ & Mike
you've got a long way to come. Local pilots (within 60-100 miles or
more) don't. There's plenty of lodging and camping available around
IYK and the area isn't any worse than any other airport. Night time
temps are in the low 70's high 60's that's not bad either.

[JJ Sinclair[_2_]]

On Sep 2, 8:41*am, glidergeek > wrote:
> On Aug 31, 9:17*am, CindyB > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 28, 11:00*pm, JS > wrote:
>
> > > There was quite a collection of gliders at Inyokern this weekend. From
> > > SGS1-26 to ASH25Mi.
> > > Jim
>
> > Jim, Ron, et al.
>
> > Regardless of how many recreational flyers show up on a widely-
> > announced,
> > good-forecast-for-soaring weekend, *that doesn't mean pilots will
> > commit money or
> > intent at least two weeks in advance to enter a competition.
>
> > Organizers invested time and planning energy, distributed entry
> > information, tried to entreat
> > potential pilots by offering mentoring and additional social, teaching
> > and fun events
> > concurrently, and STILL couldn't get more than ten pilots to express
> > interest.
>
> > Facing the expenses of importing tow planes, staff, and sanction and
> > insurance fees,
> > the willing-to-work volunteers were disappointed and had to call it
> > off. *I am sorry for
> > their effort and disappointment. *Having run the event for eighteen
> > years, it was not a huge
> > surprise to me that the commitment was soft.
>
> > Region 12 is blessed with many sites, and much generous soaring
> > weather. *My personal
> > view is that the OLC has changed the sense of competition in our
> > Region. *Pilots can fly from
> > various sites, on various weekends or weekdays, and still have a sense
> > of ranking and
> > camaraderie and poking fun with each other -- *in "competition". *This
> > decentralized 'racing'
> > allows each pilot and various L/Ds to fly with ZERO entrance fees
> > ( have YOU made your smiley face
> > donation to OLC?), nearly zero complexity, with the variety of loggers
> > already in hand, zero sense
> > of risk in tasking ( go where you want, when you want), and still be
> > part of "the game".
>
> > This decentralized racing is NOT the same as a one-site, five-day
> > event in any sense.
> > Contests should not be viewed as the evil, glider wrecking gatherings
> > as they are labeled.
> > Tasking is moderate. Turn area circles allow pilots to adjust their
> > time aloft. *In several instances,
> > participation is so soft that the handicapped concept is applied to
> > both Sports and FAI classes
> > (something that was done first in Region 12). *The opportunity for
> > flying "with" other pilots, to
> > improve your own efficiency cannot be duplicated in OLC flying.
>
> > Worried about flight safety? *Midairs? Landouts?
> > Truthfully, I came closer to a midair on a straight-out XC flight last
> > year than I had in
> > many years of Sports Class contesting. *As usual, I was the one to
> > make the "Avoid".
> > Vigilance is the watchword, in all flights.
> > Landouts? *Heck, I hold the shortest from home departing flight
> > landout award,
> > at under three miles. *The contest environment holds no more risk of
> > landout damage than
> > any other soaring flight. *Either you keep glide-slope discipline to a
> > safe place, or you don't.
> > Either you perfect spot landings before contesting, or you don't.
>
> > There can be issues of social inclusion or I'm-just-scoresheet-filler
> > at some events.
> > I think Larry, Walt and Micki were working hard to avoid that at
> > Region 12.
> > Let's hope we have another group of volunteers step forward to try to
> > offer a fun
> > time for next season. *And I hope we have more pilots take the
> > opportunity to "play".
>
> > Thank you, Walt, Larry, Ian, Micki for offering the event. Thanks,
> > Tom, for your
> > coordination with the airport staff and airspace. *Thanks Sierra
> > Soaring for being willing
> > to be invaded at a great soaring site.
>
> > Best wishes,
>
> > Cindy B
> > Region 12 Director
>
> You're spot on Cindy as usual. Region 12 held a contest I think it was
> 1996 or 97 at IYK It was my second year flying glider and I was amazed
> at the participation must have been 30-35 gliders involved. There is
> now alot of apathy in the sport especially here out west. It doesn't
> matter where the contest is suggested Cal City, Warner Springs, IYK
> most pilots just don't care to compete. The question is why? JJ & Mike
> you've got a long way to come. Local pilots (within 60-100 miles or
> more) don't. There's plenty of lodging and camping available around
> IYK and the area isn't any worse than any other airport. Night time
> temps are in the low 70's high 60's that's not bad either.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hi there Glidergeek, I suspect Region 12 is similar to Region 11 where
we can only muster about 10 pilots that want to race anything /
anywhere! If we get 8 at Air Sailing its unusual + the AFA rounds it
out to 13 or so and we're damned glad they like the place. I believe
most that have a ship and skills to race are content with on-line-
contest. I'm afraid the good old days are gone forever. Peter Dean is
trying to promote a Super Regionals next year at Avenal. May get both
regions to come, but I'd rather see it at Bishop.
Cheers,
JJ

[glidergeek]

On Sep 2, 1:32*pm, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> On Sep 2, 8:41*am, glidergeek > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 31, 9:17*am, CindyB > wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 28, 11:00*pm, JS > wrote:
>
> > > > There was quite a collection of gliders at Inyokern this weekend. From
> > > > SGS1-26 to ASH25Mi.
> > > > Jim
>
> > > Jim, Ron, et al.
>
> > > Regardless of how many recreational flyers show up on a widely-
> > > announced,
> > > good-forecast-for-soaring weekend, *that doesn't mean pilots will
> > > commit money or
> > > intent at least two weeks in advance to enter a competition.
>
> > > Organizers invested time and planning energy, distributed entry
> > > information, tried to entreat
> > > potential pilots by offering mentoring and additional social, teaching
> > > and fun events
> > > concurrently, and STILL couldn't get more than ten pilots to express
> > > interest.
>
> > > Facing the expenses of importing tow planes, staff, and sanction and
> > > insurance fees,
> > > the willing-to-work volunteers were disappointed and had to call it
> > > off. *I am sorry for
> > > their effort and disappointment. *Having run the event for eighteen
> > > years, it was not a huge
> > > surprise to me that the commitment was soft.
>
> > > Region 12 is blessed with many sites, and much generous soaring
> > > weather. *My personal
> > > view is that the OLC has changed the sense of competition in our
> > > Region. *Pilots can fly from
> > > various sites, on various weekends or weekdays, and still have a sense
> > > of ranking and
> > > camaraderie and poking fun with each other -- *in "competition". *This
> > > decentralized 'racing'
> > > allows each pilot and various L/Ds to fly with ZERO entrance fees
> > > ( have YOU made your smiley face
> > > donation to OLC?), nearly zero complexity, with the variety of loggers
> > > already in hand, zero sense
> > > of risk in tasking ( go where you want, when you want), and still be
> > > part of "the game".
>
> > > This decentralized racing is NOT the same as a one-site, five-day
> > > event in any sense.
> > > Contests should not be viewed as the evil, glider wrecking gatherings
> > > as they are labeled.
> > > Tasking is moderate. Turn area circles allow pilots to adjust their
> > > time aloft. *In several instances,
> > > participation is so soft that the handicapped concept is applied to
> > > both Sports and FAI classes
> > > (something that was done first in Region 12). *The opportunity for
> > > flying "with" other pilots, to
> > > improve your own efficiency cannot be duplicated in OLC flying.
>
> > > Worried about flight safety? *Midairs? Landouts?
> > > Truthfully, I came closer to a midair on a straight-out XC flight last
> > > year than I had in
> > > many years of Sports Class contesting. *As usual, I was the one to
> > > make the "Avoid".
> > > Vigilance is the watchword, in all flights.
> > > Landouts? *Heck, I hold the shortest from home departing flight
> > > landout award,
> > > at under three miles. *The contest environment holds no more risk of
> > > landout damage than
> > > any other soaring flight. *Either you keep glide-slope discipline to a
> > > safe place, or you don't.
> > > Either you perfect spot landings before contesting, or you don't.
>
> > > There can be issues of social inclusion or I'm-just-scoresheet-filler
> > > at some events.
> > > I think Larry, Walt and Micki were working hard to avoid that at
> > > Region 12.
> > > Let's hope we have another group of volunteers step forward to try to
> > > offer a fun
> > > time for next season. *And I hope we have more pilots take the
> > > opportunity to "play".
>
> > > Thank you, Walt, Larry, Ian, Micki for offering the event. Thanks,
> > > Tom, for your
> > > coordination with the airport staff and airspace. *Thanks Sierra
> > > Soaring for being willing
> > > to be invaded at a great soaring site.
>
> > > Best wishes,
>
> > > Cindy B
> > > Region 12 Director
>
> > You're spot on Cindy as usual. Region 12 held a contest I think it was
> > 1996 or 97 at IYK It was my second year flying glider and I was amazed
> > at the participation must have been 30-35 gliders involved. There is
> > now alot of apathy in the sport especially here out west. It doesn't
> > matter where the contest is suggested Cal City, Warner Springs, IYK
> > most pilots just don't care to compete. The question is why? JJ & Mike
> > you've got a long way to come. Local pilots (within 60-100 miles or
> > more) don't. There's plenty of lodging and camping available around
> > IYK and the area isn't any worse than any other airport. Night time
> > temps are in the low 70's high 60's that's not bad either.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Hi there Glidergeek, I suspect Region 12 is similar to Region 11 where
> we can only muster about 10 pilots that want to race anything /
> anywhere! If we get 8 at Air Sailing its unusual + the AFA rounds it
> out to 13 or so and we're damned glad they like the place. I believe
> most that have a ship and skills to race are content with on-line-
> contest. I'm afraid the good old days are gone forever. Peter Dean is
> trying to promote a Super Regionals next year at Avenal. May get both
> regions to come, but I'd rather see it at Bishop.
> Cheers,
> JJ

JJ one of my fondest memories was a second place finish sports class
at L71 in 2003 only because of lack of entries :>)

[Scott Alexander[_2_]]

On Sep 2, 4:32*pm, JJ Sinclair > wrote:

" I'm afraid the good old days are gone forever."


It's sad to hear that JJ. But things can change on a dime, just like
weather forecasts, the stock market and even enthusiasm in our sport.


I was the key organizer for the Region 10 North contest last year. We
gave lots of thought into what it would take to host our first
contest. Financially speaking, IMHO, you only need 5 contestants to
enter a race to have it pay for itself and meet minimum entrant
requirements. Not speaking to you JJ, but speaking to other clubs
across the country, I'm shocked that more people don't see it this
way.

For instance, I'm a part of a group of 5 pilots who meets up typically
every other week. We call a task, race each other, and run the scores
through WinScore. We grid our gliders, have a safety briefing, then
chow down on a combo of BBQ fixings and a shmorgishborg potluck. As
the cumulus clouds are popping, we jam our throats with what's left
and fire up the towplane. It's no different than a typical day at a
contest and costs 1 tow for each person. When we're done, we sit
around the hanger, have a so-called winners speach over an ice cold
beverage and look forward to the next time. If we wanted to do it 6
days in a row, we'd have to scrounge up a thousand bucks to
technically call it a contest and have our scores factored in to the
glider pilot ranking.

For the Region 10 Contest we organized, a 200 dollar entry fee, and
pay for each tow option as defined in the contest handbook, we were at
break even with 5 contestants. 5 X 200 = 1,000 bucks. With that you
can pay your insurance, SSA sanctioning fee, welcome meal on the first
night, cost for a contest website and your basically set! Have the
towpilots volunteer, get some of the crew to run wings (they'll enjoy
feeling involved) and stay away from wasteful spending. T-shirts,
Banner's, extravagant winner gifts, trophies, etc can all be added to
the budget as more people pay the 200 dollar entry fee. It takes
getting creative, thinking outside the box and using all available
resources.

Our club did this and we profited handsomely, $6,000 take home from
slightly less than 20 competitors. When you add a few bucks to the
cost of meals, t-shirts, aeroretrieves, RV hookups, and all optional
extra's, it really really add's up. Again, we charged the standard
200 entry and 48/aerotow. 20 competitors times 200 dollar entry fee
is 4,000 dollars. Nobody is required to buy a t-shirt, nobody is
required to do an aeroretrieve. Granted it was our first contest, so
we really penny pinched because many other clubs had told us how these
contests can suck all your money away. Not with us. We even added an
extra free meal and paid for some unexpected costs. You don't need a
big tent, use an awing from someones RV, or an open hanger. You don't
need to rent portapotties for a small contest, use what you would
normally use.

The result from our well thought through contest? One club member,
bought his own racing glider afterwards in excitement. Other members
set new goals in their soaring adventures to attend races. And the
money earned was poured back into our club. The Memphis Soaring
Society has grown since then and I honestly believe this contest
contributed to that.


I hate to see a contest cancelled, when ours was just sooo
profitable. IMHO it just doesn't have to be that way. Low attendance
just means fun in a different way - less competition for a higher
chance of winning perhaps! The glass is half FULL.


Maybe I should write an article detailing exactly how we did this...

[S. Murry]

Scott,

Really nice e-mail. Thanks for the perspective.

Just to add another datapoint to the discussion, down in Houston the two
area clubs are hosting a (non-sanctioned) series of 3-day contests...one
club hosts Memorial Day weekend, the other Labor Day.

Greater Houston Soaring (my club) hosted the 1st one last Memorial Day.
We charged $30 entry fee (remember this was not sanctioned, so no sanction
fee to pay), and everyone just paid for their tows. For the entry fee,
you received two free meals (one BBQ, and the other hamburgers lovingly
grilled to perfection by some of our club members).

We had anywhere from 8-12 competitors (if I remember correctly, and it
varied a bit from day to day). I'm sure you can imagine with only $30
entry fee that the club didn't exactly have a windfall profit. In fact,
we probably ate the cost of one of the meals, plus the trophies. However,
depending on how you amortize towplane maintenance expenses, you might
make the argument that the extra tow revenue allowed us to break even. In
any case, with a $50 entry fee, we probably could have covered all the
expenses and turned a (modest) profit off the tow revenue.

If we wanted to break even, and pay the sanctioning fee, that's where the
extra $170 (gap between what we charged and the "typical" contest fee)
comes in.

This is not to argue with anyone here. Just to second Scott's assertion
that contests can be "big and expensive" where you need many competitors
to cover the fixed costs, or they can be "small and cheap" more like a
typical weekend at the club, but with just a bit of extra structure and
planning.

As far as results, at least 4 of our club members have bought new racing
ships since the contest (one was a syndicate of 3), one member who hadn't
flown much in years pulled his Cirrus out of the box and had a good enough
time that flew at the Region 10 South in Llano last month. I'm sure that
some of this would have happened even without our little contest, but the
enthusiasm that was generated had to have contributed to this positive
outcome. In addition, many members who don't normally get to experience a
contest did, and I'm sure this "planted a seed" for some that will
eventually grow.

One final note for the competitors. Since this was not a sanctioned
contest and was much more of a "low key" affair, we had some of the most
experienced pilots in the area there giving very detailed strategy
sessions and really working with the newbies (like me) to get them up to
speed for future contests.

Altogether, I think it was a very worthwhile thing. The club at least
didn't lose any money, new contest pilots gained experience and received
(practically free) instruction from some very experienced competitors, and
many club members got to experience what a contest is like and hopefully
will progress towards one day flying a contest themselves.

--Stefan



On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 01:27:22 -0500, Scott Alexander
> wrote:

> On Sep 2, 4:32 pm, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
>
> " I'm afraid the good old days are gone forever."
>
>
> It's sad to hear that JJ. But things can change on a dime, just like
> weather forecasts, the stock market and even enthusiasm in our sport.
>
>
> I was the key organizer for the Region 10 North contest last year. We
> gave lots of thought into what it would take to host our first
> contest. Financially speaking, IMHO, you only need 5 contestants to
> enter a race to have it pay for itself and meet minimum entrant
> requirements. Not speaking to you JJ, but speaking to other clubs
> across the country, I'm shocked that more people don't see it this
> way.
>
> For instance, I'm a part of a group of 5 pilots who meets up typically
> every other week. We call a task, race each other, and run the scores
> through WinScore. We grid our gliders, have a safety briefing, then
> chow down on a combo of BBQ fixings and a shmorgishborg potluck. As
> the cumulus clouds are popping, we jam our throats with what's left
> and fire up the towplane. It's no different than a typical day at a
> contest and costs 1 tow for each person. When we're done, we sit
> around the hanger, have a so-called winners speach over an ice cold
> beverage and look forward to the next time. If we wanted to do it 6
> days in a row, we'd have to scrounge up a thousand bucks to
> technically call it a contest and have our scores factored in to the
> glider pilot ranking.
>
> For the Region 10 Contest we organized, a 200 dollar entry fee, and
> pay for each tow option as defined in the contest handbook, we were at
> break even with 5 contestants. 5 X 200 = 1,000 bucks. With that you
> can pay your insurance, SSA sanctioning fee, welcome meal on the first
> night, cost for a contest website and your basically set! Have the
> towpilots volunteer, get some of the crew to run wings (they'll enjoy
> feeling involved) and stay away from wasteful spending. T-shirts,
> Banner's, extravagant winner gifts, trophies, etc can all be added to
> the budget as more people pay the 200 dollar entry fee. It takes
> getting creative, thinking outside the box and using all available
> resources.
>
> Our club did this and we profited handsomely, $6,000 take home from
> slightly less than 20 competitors. When you add a few bucks to the
> cost of meals, t-shirts, aeroretrieves, RV hookups, and all optional
> extra's, it really really add's up. Again, we charged the standard
> 200 entry and 48/aerotow. 20 competitors times 200 dollar entry fee
> is 4,000 dollars. Nobody is required to buy a t-shirt, nobody is
> required to do an aeroretrieve. Granted it was our first contest, so
> we really penny pinched because many other clubs had told us how these
> contests can suck all your money away. Not with us. We even added an
> extra free meal and paid for some unexpected costs. You don't need a
> big tent, use an awing from someones RV, or an open hanger. You don't
> need to rent portapotties for a small contest, use what you would
> normally use.
>
> The result from our well thought through contest? One club member,
> bought his own racing glider afterwards in excitement. Other members
> set new goals in their soaring adventures to attend races. And the
> money earned was poured back into our club. The Memphis Soaring
> Society has grown since then and I honestly believe this contest
> contributed to that.
>
>
> I hate to see a contest cancelled, when ours was just sooo
> profitable. IMHO it just doesn't have to be that way. Low attendance
> just means fun in a different way - less competition for a higher
> chance of winning perhaps! The glass is half FULL.
>
>
> Maybe I should write an article detailing exactly how we did this...


--
Stefan Murry

[JJ Sinclair[_2_]]

On Sep 3, 11:54*pm, "S. Murry" > wrote:
> Scott,
>
> Really nice e-mail. *Thanks for the perspective.
>
> Just to add another datapoint to the discussion, down in Houston the two *
> area clubs are hosting a (non-sanctioned) series of 3-day contests...one *
> club hosts Memorial Day weekend, the other Labor Day.
>
> Greater Houston Soaring (my club) hosted the 1st one last Memorial Day. *
> We charged $30 entry fee (remember this was not sanctioned, so no sanction *
> fee to pay), and everyone just paid for their tows. *For the entry fee, *
> you received two free meals (one BBQ, and the other hamburgers lovingly *
> grilled to perfection by some of our club members).
>
> We had anywhere from 8-12 competitors (if I remember correctly, and it *
> varied a bit from day to day). *I'm sure you can imagine with only $30 *
> entry fee that the club didn't exactly have a windfall profit. *In fact, *
> we probably ate the cost of one of the meals, plus the trophies. *However, *
> depending on how you amortize towplane maintenance expenses, you might *
> make the argument that the extra tow revenue allowed us to break even. *In *
> any case, with a $50 entry fee, we probably could have covered all the *
> expenses and turned a (modest) profit off the tow revenue.
>
> If we wanted to break even, and pay the sanctioning fee, that's where the *
> extra $170 (gap between what we charged and the "typical" contest fee) *
> comes in.
>
> This is not to argue with anyone here. *Just to second Scott's assertion *
> that contests can be "big and expensive" where you need many competitors *
> to cover the fixed costs, or they can be "small and cheap" more like a *
> typical weekend at the club, but with just a bit of extra structure and *
> planning.
>
> As far as results, at least 4 of our club members have bought new racing *
> ships since the contest (one was a syndicate of 3), one member who hadn't *
> flown much in years pulled his Cirrus out of the box and had a good enough *
> time that flew at the Region 10 South in Llano last month. *I'm sure that *
> some of this would have happened even without our little contest, but the *
> enthusiasm that was generated had to have contributed to this positive *
> outcome. *In addition, many members who don't normally get to experience a *
> contest did, and I'm sure this "planted a seed" for some that will *
> eventually grow.
>
> One final note for the competitors. *Since this was not a sanctioned *
> contest and was much more of a "low key" affair, we had some of the most *
> experienced pilots in the area there giving very detailed strategy *
> sessions and really working with the newbies (like me) to get them up to *
> speed for future contests.
>
> Altogether, I think it was a very worthwhile thing. *The club at least *
> didn't lose any money, new contest pilots gained experience and received *
> (practically free) instruction from some very experienced competitors, and *
> many club members got to experience what a contest is like and hopefully *
> will progress towards one day flying a contest themselves.
>
> --Stefan
>
> On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 01:27:22 -0500, Scott Alexander *
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > On Sep 2, 4:32 pm, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
>
> > " I'm afraid the good old days are gone forever."
>
> > It's sad to hear that JJ. *But things can change on a dime, just like
> > weather forecasts, the stock market and even enthusiasm in our sport.
>
> > I was the key organizer for the Region 10 North contest last year. *We
> > gave lots of thought into what it would take to host our first
> > contest. *Financially speaking, IMHO, you only need 5 contestants to
> > enter a race to have it pay for itself and meet minimum entrant
> > requirements. *Not speaking to you JJ, but speaking to other clubs
> > across the country, I'm shocked that more people don't see it this
> > way.
>
> > For instance, I'm a part of a group of 5 pilots who meets up typically
> > every other week. *We call a task, race each other, and run the scores
> > through WinScore. *We grid our gliders, have a safety briefing, then
> > chow down on a combo of BBQ fixings and a shmorgishborg potluck. *As
> > the cumulus clouds are popping, we jam our throats with what's left
> > and fire up the towplane. *It's no different than a typical day at a
> > contest and costs 1 tow for each person. *When we're done, we sit
> > around the hanger, have a so-called winners speach over an ice cold
> > beverage and look forward to the next time. *If we wanted to do it 6
> > days in a row, we'd have to scrounge up a thousand bucks to
> > technically call it a contest and have our scores factored in to the
> > glider pilot ranking.
>
> > For the Region 10 Contest we organized, a 200 dollar entry fee, and
> > pay for each tow option as defined in the contest handbook, we were at
> > break even with 5 contestants. *5 X 200 = 1,000 bucks. *With that you
> > can pay your insurance, SSA sanctioning fee, welcome meal on the first
> > night, cost for a contest website and your basically set! *Have the
> > towpilots volunteer, get some of the crew to run wings (they'll enjoy
> > feeling involved) and stay away from wasteful spending. *T-shirts,
> > Banner's, extravagant winner gifts, trophies, etc can all be added to
> > the budget as more people pay the 200 dollar entry fee. *It takes
> > getting creative, thinking outside the box and using all available
> > resources.
>
> > Our club did this and we profited handsomely, $6,000 take home from
> > slightly less than 20 competitors. *When you add a few bucks to the
> > cost of meals, t-shirts, aeroretrieves, RV hookups, and all optional
> > extra's, it really really add's up. *Again, we charged the standard
> > 200 entry and 48/aerotow. *20 competitors times 200 dollar entry fee
> > is 4,000 dollars. *Nobody is required to buy a t-shirt, nobody is
> > required to do an aeroretrieve. *Granted it was our first contest, so
> > we really penny pinched because many other clubs had told us how these
> > contests can suck all your money away. *Not with us. *We even added an
> > extra free meal and paid for some unexpected costs. *You don't need a
> > big tent, use an awing from someones RV, or an open hanger. *You don't
> > need to rent portapotties for a small contest, use what you would
> > normally use.
>
> > The result from our well thought through contest? *One club member,
> > bought his own racing glider afterwards in excitement. *Other members
> > set new goals in their soaring adventures to attend races. *And the
> > money earned was poured back into our club. *The Memphis Soaring
> > Society has grown since then and I honestly believe this contest
> > contributed to that.
>
> > I hate to see a contest cancelled, when ours was just sooo
> > profitable. *IMHO it just doesn't have to be that way. *Low attendance
> > just means fun in a different way - less competition for a higher
> > chance of winning perhaps! *The glass is half FULL.
>
> > Maybe I should write an article detailing exactly how we did this...
>
> --
> Stefan Murry- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'm with you guys (Stef & Scot) and that's what we do at Air Sailing.
We own 2 Pawnees and only charge $25-$35 a tow, have a club house with
showers, BBQ, etc. The soaring in July is consistently good year after
year.The big problem is when tow pilots, tow planes and contest
personnel must be brought in with ferry expences + lodging + paying
the CD and/or CM. Parowan is a good example, there is usually 1 tow
ship there, everything else must be brought in. I believe we has 13
this year and I know the contest lost money and the CD & CM didn't get
anything but lodging paid. Hard to expect managers to sign up for more
of that, isn't it?
Cheers,
JJ.

[Scott Alexander[_2_]]

Well said Stefan.

Likewise, GTA contests cost 5 bucks.....not a typo, only five bucks!
The 5 bucks goes towards the website fee. This is a Georgia,
Tennessee, Alabama weekend race circuit. BYOB, no trophies, all
scored on winscore, safety briefing, weather briefing, sign an
insurance waiver, and have proof of your own insurance. etc. You pay
each tow which varies from site to site. If it's more than 10
gliders, and you only have 1 towplane? Then call a shorter task and
brief everyone to be ready for quick turnarounds with the towplane.

If contest costs get out of hand (like ferrying in a towplane from
over a thousand miles away, because he's your best friend!) then plan
on seeing less and less contests. Time to handover the checkbook to
the penny pinchers!

[CLewis95]

On Sep 4, 1:27*am, Scott Alexander >
wrote:
> On Sep 2, 4:32*pm, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
>
> " I'm afraid the good old days are gone forever."
>
> It's sad to hear that JJ. *But things can change on a dime, just like
> weather forecasts, the stock market and even enthusiasm in our sport.
>
> I was the key organizer for the Region 10 North contest last year. *We
> gave lots of thought into what it would take to host our first
> contest. *Financially speaking, IMHO, you only need 5 contestants to
> enter a race to have it pay for itself and meet minimum entrant
> requirements. *Not speaking to you JJ, but speaking to other clubs
> across the country, I'm shocked that more people don't see it this
> way.
>
> For instance, I'm a part of a group of 5 pilots who meets up typically
> every other week. *We call a task, race each other, and run the scores
> through WinScore. *We grid our gliders, have a safety briefing, then
> chow down on a combo of BBQ fixings and a shmorgishborg potluck. *As
> the cumulus clouds are popping, we jam our throats with what's left
> and fire up the towplane. *It's no different than a typical day at a
> contest and costs 1 tow for each person. *When we're done, we sit
> around the hanger, have a so-called winners speach over an ice cold
> beverage and look forward to the next time. *If we wanted to do it 6
> days in a row, we'd have to scrounge up a thousand bucks to
> technically call it a contest and have our scores factored in to the
> glider pilot ranking.
>
> For the Region 10 Contest we organized, a 200 dollar entry fee, and
> pay for each tow option as defined in the contest handbook, we were at
> break even with 5 contestants. *5 X 200 = 1,000 bucks. *With that you
> can pay your insurance, SSA sanctioning fee, welcome meal on the first
> night, cost for a contest website and your basically set! *Have the
> towpilots volunteer, get some of the crew to run wings (they'll enjoy
> feeling involved) and stay away from wasteful spending. *T-shirts,
> Banner's, extravagant winner gifts, trophies, etc can all be added to
> the budget as more people pay the 200 dollar entry fee. *It takes
> getting creative, thinking outside the box and using all available
> resources.
>
> Our club did this and we profited handsomely, $6,000 take home from
> slightly less than 20 competitors. *When you add a few bucks to the
> cost of meals, t-shirts, aeroretrieves, RV hookups, and all optional
> extra's, it really really add's up. *Again, we charged the standard
> 200 entry and 48/aerotow. *20 competitors times 200 dollar entry fee
> is 4,000 dollars. *Nobody is required to buy a t-shirt, nobody is
> required to do an aeroretrieve. *Granted it was our first contest, so
> we really penny pinched because many other clubs had told us how these
> contests can suck all your money away. *Not with us. *We even added an
> extra free meal and paid for some unexpected costs. *You don't need a
> big tent, use an awing from someones RV, or an open hanger. *You don't
> need to rent portapotties for a small contest, use what you would
> normally use.
>
> The result from our well thought through contest? *One club member,
> bought his own racing glider afterwards in excitement. *Other members
> set new goals in their soaring adventures to attend races. *And the
> money earned was poured back into our club. *The Memphis Soaring
> Society has grown since then and I honestly believe this contest
> contributed to that.
>
> I hate to see a contest cancelled, when ours was just sooo
> profitable. *IMHO it just doesn't have to be that way. *Low attendance
> just means fun in a different way - less competition for a higher
> chance of winning perhaps! *The glass is half FULL.
>
> Maybe I should write an article detailing exactly how we did this...

Scott .. This is an EXCELLENT commentary on the issue!!!!!!!! ... and
Memphis 2010 Reg 10 was an awesome contest!

Curt - 95

[HoUdino]

On Aug 28, 4:36*pm, Ron Gleason > wrote:
> Just saw on the SSA website that the R12 contest has been cancelled.
> Anyone know the story and reason(s)? *Just curious as I was thinking
> of attending at one point but could not rearrange my schedule
>
> Ron Gleason

Mainly canceled for lack of participation. My opinion is R12 has lost
the "contest culture" with OLC filling the need for both up coming and
older contest pilots. The learning benefit from getting 25 pilots in a
room breaking bread together for 5 days of shared tasks has been
forgotten by the old...to the decrement of the new contest pilot. I
tend to reject the "bad location" argument as Warner Springs/Sky
Sailing gave R12 a strong push for two years in a very family friendly
location with no better attendance results than we projected for IYK.
For flying, IYK is fantastic, just look at OLC.

Perhaps the best idea is to hold non-sanctioned 1-2 day contests at
the various R12 sites until a new region wide group of pilots emerges
who would be interested in feeding into a bigger event. Avenal and
the DDD are good local examples of well attended low cost events which
can be replicated at other locations.

If you live in R12, you may have to travel far to experience a good
contest...and it is worth it.

Larry Tuohino
IYK Contest Organizer

[RAS56]

As a relative newcomer to the sport, my 2 cents on why there's a general decline in participation in contest soaring is that there is a general lack of a structure and interest of "passing XC knowledge" along in the soaring community to new guys. Folks just want to go to the gliderport on Saturday, assemble and fly, and I can't necessarily blame them.

Frank Paynter detailed many of these problems very precisely in the latest issue of Soaring Magazine in the Condor column. Go read it...I've encountered most of the problems he highlights and in fact have communicated with him about my experiences and thoughts.

I started a thread about obtaining XC instruction a while back on this forum in search of info. Sure, it's out there commercially if I want to drop 3 grand (plus airfare and expenses) for a week's instruction....or if I want to trailer my rig 1/2 way across country I might be able to attend some "XC camps"...but why shouldn't we be able to obtain some of this knowledge "locally" (or regionally) or perhaps by doing some online training sponsored by the SSA? I don't want to "learn under fire" by participating in a actual contest without picking up basic skills to keep me out of trouble first.

You want more contest participation? Get more guys comfortable with leaving the local area and going XC and I'll bet contest participation will increase as well.

I'm not anywhere near ready to fly a contest yet...but I want to be! But, from my perspective, it appears the barriers to "getting there" on developing good XC skills currently require a level of commitment (in time and money) that many weekend flyers look at...and walk away from.

Frank's article confirms this and offers some thoughts on fixing it (Condor)...but that won't solve all the problems. Maybe every Region should sponsor a Thermal/XC course for newbies (something like the folks up at Air Sailing put on) before each contest season????? Sounds like a good idea to me..


RS

[Dan Marotta]

What is stopping you from following one of the more experienced pilots as he
goes out on a task? What stops you from asking questions?

When I was learning to "cut the cord", that's what I did. Some of the
pilots were real snobs and had no time to talk with inexperienced guys,
others were open, friendly, and helpful. Find them. Don't let the lack of
"cross country instruction" keep you from enjoying the benefits!


"RAS56" > wrote in message
...
>
> As a relative newcomer to the sport, my 2 cents on why there's a general
> decline in participation in contest soaring is that there is a general
> lack of a structure and interest of "passing XC knowledge" along in the
> soaring community to new guys. Folks just want to go to the gliderport
> on Saturday, assemble and fly, and I can't necessarily blame them.
>
> Frank Paynter detailed many of these problems very precisely in the
> latest issue of Soaring Magazine in the Condor column. Go read it...I've
> encountered most of the problems he highlights and in fact have
> communicated with him about my experiences and thoughts.
>
> I started a thread about obtaining XC instruction a while back on this
> forum in search of info. Sure, it's out there commercially if I want to
> drop 3 grand (plus airfare and expenses) for a week's instruction....or
> if I want to trailer my rig 1/2 way across country I might be able to
> attend some "XC camps"...but why shouldn't we be able to obtain some of
> this knowledge "locally" (or regionally) or perhaps by doing some online
> training sponsored by the SSA? I don't want to "learn under fire" by
> participating in a actual contest without picking up basic skills to
> keep me out of trouble first.
>
> You want more contest participation? Get more guys comfortable with
> leaving the local area and going XC and I'll bet contest participation
> will increase as well.
>
> I'm not anywhere near ready to fly a contest yet...but I want to be!
> But, from my perspective, it appears the barriers to "getting there" on
> developing good XC skills currently require a level of commitment (in
> time and money) that many weekend flyers look at...and walk away from.
>
> Frank's article confirms this and offers some thoughts on fixing it
> (Condor)...but that won't solve all the problems. Maybe every Region
> should sponsor a Thermal/XC course for newbies (something like the folks
> up at Air Sailing put on) before each contest season????? Sounds like a
> good idea to me..
>
>
> RS
>
>
>
>
> --
> RAS56

[Alexander Georgas[_2_]]

On 07/09/2011 02:32, RAS56 wrote:
> As a relative newcomer to the sport, my 2 cents on why there's a general
> decline in participation in contest soaring is that there is a general
> lack of a structure and interest of "passing XC knowledge" along in the
> soaring community to new guys. Folks just want to go to the gliderport
> on Saturday, assemble and fly, and I can't necessarily blame them.
>
> Frank Paynter detailed many of these problems very precisely in the
> latest issue of Soaring Magazine in the Condor column. Go read it...I've
> encountered most of the problems he highlights and in fact have
> communicated with him about my experiences and thoughts.
>
> I started a thread about obtaining XC instruction a while back on this
> forum in search of info. Sure, it's out there commercially if I want to
> drop 3 grand (plus airfare and expenses) for a week's instruction....or
> if I want to trailer my rig 1/2 way across country I might be able to
> attend some "XC camps"...but why shouldn't we be able to obtain some of
> this knowledge "locally" (or regionally) or perhaps by doing some online
> training sponsored by the SSA? I don't want to "learn under fire" by
> participating in a actual contest without picking up basic skills to
> keep me out of trouble first.
>
> You want more contest participation? Get more guys comfortable with
> leaving the local area and going XC and I'll bet contest participation
> will increase as well.
>
> I'm not anywhere near ready to fly a contest yet...but I want to be!
> But, from my perspective, it appears the barriers to "getting there" on
> developing good XC skills currently require a level of commitment (in
> time and money) that many weekend flyers look at...and walk away from.
>
> Frank's article confirms this and offers some thoughts on fixing it
> (Condor)...but that won't solve all the problems. Maybe every Region
> should sponsor a Thermal/XC course for newbies (something like the folks
> up at Air Sailing put on) before each contest season????? Sounds like a
> good idea to me..
>
>
> RS
>
>
>
>

There are plenty of very good cross-country courses that one may take,
given the inclination, time and money. However, empirical evidence
suggests that the difficulty of transition of glider pilots to
cross-country is a significant issue to our sport and most probably
negatively influences its development.

From a global perspective, it becomes apparent that every country has
its own training syllabus and path to pilot certification. This is even
true in Europe, where Gliding remains (for the moment) the only
non-standardized pilot certificate across EASA. Some countries have very
extensive and methodical training programs, while others with less
resources in their gliding communities have simpler courses.

What is common across every single country --to my knowledge at least--
is that pilot training stops with the achievement of a pilot
certificate, which while giving cursory attention to things like
thermaling and weather, does not thoroughly address the skills required
for cross-country.

From there, the path to cross country differs. In most cases, while
there may be recommendations at the national level, procedures and
programs rest with the club, i.e. cross-country endorsement to use the
club single seater, or pilot briefing flight to fly your sailplane from
the site. Some countries offer Bronze Badge preparatory programs
followed by a Silver Badge target for the pilot. However, these an not
fully fledged instruction programs but most often just hoops to jump
through in order to be able to take your glider cross-county.

There are basically two paths available in most cases: join a
cross-country course somewhere, or progress on your own. Some people are
lucky enough to be in a club or soaring community which offers
cross-country training, but in my understanding this is a minority.

While some people seek gliding as a primary way to learn to fly and then
progress to other forms of aviation (and this is something to be
encouraged as it is a very rewarding path), I would suggest that the
great majority of people who will stick with gliding for the long term
are those who will later pursue cross-county. Given this, I find little
excuse for not having cross-country training (with full and practical
instruction in cross-country flights) as part of the official training
syllabus for the acquisition of a gliding pilot certificate.

Surely, from a regulatory perspective, instruction in the safe and
effective conduct of the aircraft is the threshold for the acquisition
of a license, but beyond that, the national gliding committees should be
pushing for a training syllabus on cross-country to be incorporated in
the training program. Why stop at the minimum requirement imposed by the
regulator --which is what should be tested for in the CAA examination--
and not also include instruction in the necessary skill for advancement
in the sport which will also enhance the safe operation of the pilot in
the future?


Alexander Georgas

[glidergeek]

On Sep 7, 6:56*am, "Dan Marotta" > wrote:
> What is stopping you from following one of the more experienced pilots as he
> goes out on a task? *What stops you from asking questions?
>
> When I was learning to "cut the cord", that's what I did. *Some of the
> pilots were real snobs and had no time to talk with inexperienced guys,
> others were open, friendly, and helpful. *Find them. *Don't let the lack of
> "cross country instruction" keep you from enjoying the benefits!
>
> "RAS56" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > As a relative newcomer to the sport, my 2 cents on why there's a general
> > decline in participation in contest soaring is that there is a general
> > lack of a structure and interest of "passing XC knowledge" along in the
> > soaring community to new guys. Folks just want to go to the gliderport
> > on Saturday, assemble and fly, and I can't necessarily blame them.
>
> > Frank Paynter detailed many of these problems very precisely in the
> > latest issue of Soaring Magazine in the Condor column. Go read it...I've
> > encountered most of the problems he highlights and in fact have
> > communicated with him about my experiences and thoughts.
>
> > I started a thread about obtaining XC instruction a while back on this
> > forum in search of info. Sure, it's out there commercially if I want to
> > drop 3 grand (plus airfare and expenses) for a week's instruction....or
> > if I want to trailer my rig 1/2 way across country I might be able to
> > attend some "XC camps"...but why shouldn't we be able to obtain some of
> > this knowledge "locally" (or regionally) or perhaps by doing some online
> > training sponsored by the SSA? I don't want to "learn under fire" by
> > participating in a actual contest without picking up basic skills to
> > keep me out of trouble first.
>
> > You want more contest participation? Get more guys comfortable with
> > leaving the local area and going XC and I'll bet contest participation
> > will increase as well.
>
> > I'm not anywhere near ready to fly a contest yet...but I want to be!
> > But, from my perspective, it appears the barriers to "getting there" on
> > developing good XC skills currently require a level of commitment (in
> > time and money) that many weekend flyers look at...and walk away from.
>
> > Frank's article confirms this and offers some thoughts on fixing it
> > (Condor)...but that won't solve all the problems. Maybe every Region
> > should sponsor a Thermal/XC course for newbies (something like the folks
> > up at Air Sailing put on) before each contest season????? Sounds like a
> > good idea to me..
>
> > RS
>
> > --
> > RAS56

"What is stopping you from following one of the more experienced
pilots as he
goes out on a task? What stops you from asking questions?"

Dan I'm a bit of an experienced xc pilot. If you haven't noticed most
highly experienced xc pilots (don't include me on this or maybe you
either) don't have the time or want to extend the time to mentor low
time pilots (some do & will). Following? How does a new guy follow an
experienced pilot that's hot to go? Most have the mentality of "hey
learn it yourself, I had to and there's books on this subject". Yes
the other option is spend a few hundred or a couple thousand $'s on
training. Also look at a guy like Tony Smolder (excellent pilot), when
he lived in Arizona he couldn't fly under 500k per flight, he's back
east now and he has a hard time getting a flight over 300k.back east.

Timing and location. Keep launching and looking for thermals, ask
questions if you can't get an answer ask someone else.
RS it will come with time and experience keep at it fly often

[John Cochrane[_2_]]

On Sep 6, 6:32*pm, RAS56 > wrote:
> As a relative newcomer to the sport, my 2 cents on why there's a general
> decline in participation in contest soaring is that there is a general
> lack of a structure and interest of "passing XC knowledge" along in the
> soaring community to new guys. Folks just want to go to the gliderport
> on Saturday, assemble and fly, and I can't necessarily blame them.
> > RS
>
> --
> RAS56

This is exactly what a sports class regional is set up to accomplish!

I think there's a huge misunderstanding here about what it takes to
"be ready" to go to a sports class regional. No, you don't have to
profile the wings, install a new computer, and get a thousand hours of
cross country. You need one silver badge distance flight or its
equivalent on OLC. Period. That's not much!

Then, the whole point of sports class regionals is to bring new pilots
who are just getting going, and provide exactly the mentoring you're
looking for. Every regional provides a "mentoring" sytsem where you
will have your own personally assigned buddy. Many have explicit
"newbie" classes in the mornings.

The structure and interest for passing on knowledge is there! It's
called a sports class regionals.

John Cochrane

[jcarlyle]

RAS,

I come down between John Cochrane and Alexander Georgas, and more with
Dan Marotta - I suggest learning XC yourself. Please note that I’m
limiting the discussion to learning XC in areas such as eastern
Pennsylvania, under thermic conditions, nowhere near mountainous
terrain, and with plenty of landable fields. Then, there are only 7
steps you need to take to safely fly XC - 2 attitudinal, 3 flying, and
2 organizational.

The first step is deciding that you absolutely, truly want to fly a
glider XC. There will be some discouraging times, and you must make a
firm, unswerving commitment to keep on trying. The second step is
firmly believing that thermals are everywhere. If the day is
developing such that thermals are all around your home airport, you
must have unquestioned confidence that they are also out there beyond
gliding distance.

The third step is practicing thermalling until you are able to keep
the glider up several times for 3 hours, with a few climbs from down
low each flight. This give you the confidence that you can not only
find and work thermals, but that you won’t get rattled when you need
altitude. The fourth step is practicing landing until you can put the
glider down and stop it inside of a 300 foot distance, every time, no
excuses. This gives you the confidence that if you can’t stay up, you
have the skills needed to land the glider in a farmer’s field. The
fifth step is identifying from the air suitable off field landing
sites (I use the SSSSLOWW mnemonic - size, surface, slope,
surroundings, livestock, obstructions, wind, wires). Good fields
change with the season, and you must drive out afterwards to validate
your choices until you don’t make mistakes

The sixth step is always having a gassed up vehicle hooked up
mechanically and electrically to a suitable trailer for retrieves. You
are eventually going to land out somewhere where an aerotow isn’t
possible, so always be prepared. The seventh step is always arranging
with someone at the home airfield to retrieve you if it becomes
necessary. The friend you think you can always rely upon to get you if
you simply call him up might be on a business trip that day.

That’s all you need! I don’t like the sorts of courses Alexander
suggests, because in my view one tends to get quite discouraged,
thinking that there is so much to learn that XC must be very difficult
to do. John’s suggestion of a sports class regional is good, but only
after you’ve learned how to fly XC. I was quite intimidated and very
nervous during my first sports class regional, which if I’d had less
confidence in my ability to fly an XC task would have been a deal
breaker. Dan’s suggestion of asking questions of experienced XC pilots
is quite good, and you should definitely do that. But I believe XC is
something that you need to teach yourself, and you improve in direct
proportion to the number of times you go out and do it.

Whatever way you decide to go, though, RS, do make an attempt to try
XC flight. It’s an amazing feeling of accomplishment, and it’ll open
up a new soaring world for you.

-John

On Sep 6, 7:32 pm, RAS56 > wrote:
> As a relative newcomer to the sport, my 2 cents on why there's a general
> decline in participation in contest soaring is that there is a general
> lack of a structure and interest of "passing XC knowledge" along in the
> soaring community to new guys. Folks just want to go to the gliderport
> on Saturday, assemble and fly, and I can't necessarily blame them.
>
> Frank Paynter detailed many of these problems very precisely in the
> latest issue of Soaring Magazine in the Condor column. Go read it...I've
> encountered most of the problems he highlights and in fact have
> communicated with him about my experiences and thoughts.
>
> I started a thread about obtaining XC instruction a while back on this
> forum in search of info. Sure, it's out there commercially if I want to
> drop 3 grand (plus airfare and expenses) for a week's instruction....or
> if I want to trailer my rig 1/2 way across country I might be able to
> attend some "XC camps"...but why shouldn't we be able to obtain some of
> this knowledge "locally" (or regionally) or perhaps by doing some online
> training sponsored by the SSA? I don't want to "learn under fire" by
> participating in a actual contest without picking up basic skills to
> keep me out of trouble first.
>
> You want more contest participation? Get more guys comfortable with
> leaving the local area and going XC and I'll bet contest participation
> will increase as well.
>
> I'm not anywhere near ready to fly a contest yet...but I want to be!
> But, from my perspective, it appears the barriers to "getting there" on
> developing good XC skills currently require a level of commitment (in
> time and money) that many weekend flyers look at...and walk away from.
>
> Frank's article confirms this and offers some thoughts on fixing it
> (Condor)...but that won't solve all the problems. Maybe every Region
> should sponsor a Thermal/XC course for newbies (something like the folks
> up at Air Sailing put on) before each contest season????? Sounds like a
> good idea to me..
>
> RS
>
> --
> RAS56

[Alexander Georgas[_2_]]

On 07/09/2011 20:59, jcarlyle wrote:
> RAS,
>
> I come down between John Cochrane and Alexander Georgas, and more with
> Dan Marotta - I suggest learning XC yourself. Please note that I’m
> limiting the discussion to learning XC in areas such as eastern
> Pennsylvania, under thermic conditions, nowhere near mountainous
> terrain, and with plenty of landable fields. Then, there are only 7
> steps you need to take to safely fly XC - 2 attitudinal, 3 flying, and
> 2 organizational.
>
> The first step is deciding that you absolutely, truly want to fly a
> glider XC. There will be some discouraging times, and you must make a
> firm, unswerving commitment to keep on trying. The second step is
> firmly believing that thermals are everywhere. If the day is
> developing such that thermals are all around your home airport, you
> must have unquestioned confidence that they are also out there beyond
> gliding distance.
>
> The third step is practicing thermalling until you are able to keep
> the glider up several times for 3 hours, with a few climbs from down
> low each flight. This give you the confidence that you can not only
> find and work thermals, but that you won’t get rattled when you need
> altitude. The fourth step is practicing landing until you can put the
> glider down and stop it inside of a 300 foot distance, every time, no
> excuses. This gives you the confidence that if you can’t stay up, you
> have the skills needed to land the glider in a farmer’s field. The
> fifth step is identifying from the air suitable off field landing
> sites (I use the SSSSLOWW mnemonic - size, surface, slope,
> surroundings, livestock, obstructions, wind, wires). Good fields
> change with the season, and you must drive out afterwards to validate
> your choices until you don’t make mistakes
>
> The sixth step is always having a gassed up vehicle hooked up
> mechanically and electrically to a suitable trailer for retrieves. You
> are eventually going to land out somewhere where an aerotow isn’t
> possible, so always be prepared. The seventh step is always arranging
> with someone at the home airfield to retrieve you if it becomes
> necessary. The friend you think you can always rely upon to get you if
> you simply call him up might be on a business trip that day.
>
> That’s all you need! I don’t like the sorts of courses Alexander
> suggests, because in my view one tends to get quite discouraged,
> thinking that there is so much to learn that XC must be very difficult
> to do. John’s suggestion of a sports class regional is good, but only
> after you’ve learned how to fly XC. I was quite intimidated and very
> nervous during my first sports class regional, which if I’d had less
> confidence in my ability to fly an XC task would have been a deal
> breaker. Dan’s suggestion of asking questions of experienced XC pilots
> is quite good, and you should definitely do that. But I believe XC is
> something that you need to teach yourself, and you improve in direct
> proportion to the number of times you go out and do it.
>
> Whatever way you decide to go, though, RS, do make an attempt to try
> XC flight. It’s an amazing feeling of accomplishment, and it’ll open
> up a new soaring world for you.
>
> -John
>
> On Sep 6, 7:32 pm, > wrote:
>> As a relative newcomer to the sport, my 2 cents on why there's a general
>> decline in participation in contest soaring is that there is a general
>> lack of a structure and interest of "passing XC knowledge" along in the
>> soaring community to new guys. Folks just want to go to the gliderport
>> on Saturday, assemble and fly, and I can't necessarily blame them.
>>
>> Frank Paynter detailed many of these problems very precisely in the
>> latest issue of Soaring Magazine in the Condor column. Go read it...I've
>> encountered most of the problems he highlights and in fact have
>> communicated with him about my experiences and thoughts.
>>
>> I started a thread about obtaining XC instruction a while back on this
>> forum in search of info. Sure, it's out there commercially if I want to
>> drop 3 grand (plus airfare and expenses) for a week's instruction....or
>> if I want to trailer my rig 1/2 way across country I might be able to
>> attend some "XC camps"...but why shouldn't we be able to obtain some of
>> this knowledge "locally" (or regionally) or perhaps by doing some online
>> training sponsored by the SSA? I don't want to "learn under fire" by
>> participating in a actual contest without picking up basic skills to
>> keep me out of trouble first.
>>
>> You want more contest participation? Get more guys comfortable with
>> leaving the local area and going XC and I'll bet contest participation
>> will increase as well.
>>
>> I'm not anywhere near ready to fly a contest yet...but I want to be!
>> But, from my perspective, it appears the barriers to "getting there" on
>> developing good XC skills currently require a level of commitment (in
>> time and money) that many weekend flyers look at...and walk away from.
>>
>> Frank's article confirms this and offers some thoughts on fixing it
>> (Condor)...but that won't solve all the problems. Maybe every Region
>> should sponsor a Thermal/XC course for newbies (something like the folks
>> up at Air Sailing put on) before each contest season????? Sounds like a
>> good idea to me..
>>
>> RS
>>
>> --
>> RAS56
>

Let me add a seventh step: Fly tasks with other people over the
internet on the Condor flight simulator during the winter. You will be
surprised with yourself come springtime.

[Peter von Tresckow]

I really enjoyed the Chicago Memorial Day contest a couple of years ago and
also learned a ton. I'd love to try my hand a a full week regional contest,
but it's been several years since anything has been done in region 7 other
than the contest at Sky Soaring.

I'd love to fly in a regional, but I don't want to have to drive 1,000 miles
to go there.

Pete

"John Cochrane" > wrote in message
...
On Sep 6, 6:32 pm, RAS56 > wrote:
> As a relative newcomer to the sport, my 2 cents on why there's a general
> decline in participation in contest soaring is that there is a general
> lack of a structure and interest of "passing XC knowledge" along in the
> soaring community to new guys. Folks just want to go to the gliderport
> on Saturday, assemble and fly, and I can't necessarily blame them.
> > RS
>
> --
> RAS56

This is exactly what a sports class regional is set up to accomplish!

I think there's a huge misunderstanding here about what it takes to
"be ready" to go to a sports class regional. No, you don't have to
profile the wings, install a new computer, and get a thousand hours of
cross country. You need one silver badge distance flight or its
equivalent on OLC. Period. That's not much!

Then, the whole point of sports class regionals is to bring new pilots
who are just getting going, and provide exactly the mentoring you're
looking for. Every regional provides a "mentoring" sytsem where you
will have your own personally assigned buddy. Many have explicit
"newbie" classes in the mornings.

The structure and interest for passing on knowledge is there! It's
called a sports class regionals.

John Cochrane

[BobW]

On 9/6/2011 5:32 PM, RAS56 wrote:
> As a relative newcomer to the sport, my 2 cents on why there's a general
> decline in participation in contest soaring is that there is a general
> lack of a structure and interest of "passing XC knowledge" along in the
> soaring community to new guys. Folks just want to go to the gliderport
> on Saturday, assemble and fly, and I can't necessarily blame them.

You seem to have this aspect of weekend (U.S., club-based) soaring accurately
diagnosed, IMO. The time some (not all) folks want to BS is *after* the day's
soaring. *Then* is a great time to listen in and occasionally prime the pump
with ad-hoc questions of personal interest. You'll soon figure out which
pilots are genuinely interested in helping you ascend to the next level by
sharing their own experience(s); bug 'em, they'll be happy to share.

>
> Frank Paynter detailed many of these problems very precisely in the
> latest issue of Soaring Magazine in the Condor column. Go read it...I've
> encountered most of the problems he highlights and in fact have
> communicated with him about my experiences and thoughts.
>
> I started a thread about obtaining XC instruction a while back on this
> forum in search of info. Sure, it's out there commercially if I want to
> drop 3 grand (plus airfare and expenses) for a week's instruction....or
> if I want to trailer my rig 1/2 way across country I might be able to
> attend some "XC camps"...but why shouldn't we be able to obtain some of
> this knowledge "locally" (or regionally) or perhaps by doing some online
> training sponsored by the SSA? I don't want to "learn under fire" by
> participating in a actual contest without picking up basic skills to
> keep me out of trouble first.

Others have already shared lots of insightful, usable info regarding the
issues raised in the preceding paragraph. I'll second the observations that:
a) making the time/personal commitment to safely and sanely (which is not to
say 100% risk-freely [but darned close to it!]) learn how to choose/land-in
fields is perhaps THE largest actual hurdle to flying XC, and b) it really is
self-taught in the sense that nothing about it can be short-cutted, in an
experience sense. You can learn from others most of the (easily avoidable)
'dumb mistakes' to avoid, but the difference between 'book learning' and
'usable knowledge' comes only with the actual making of OFLs. Retrieving
others is a darned good approximation, though...

>
> You want more contest participation? Get more guys comfortable with
> leaving the local area and going XC and I'll bet contest participation
> will increase as well.

FWIW, that's exactly what I've seen in my club from ~1983 until ~2000 (at
which time some formalization of training also began available for the first
time). So far as I'm aware, the club has always (via its bylaws) encouraged
members to take club ships XC, but few did who had not also made the personal
commitment on their own to do so. For many years there were no instructors who
regularly (or even actually) flew XC, and formal XC-dual training consisted
mostly of performing an 'OFL' at an airport about 8 miles distant.
Encouragingly, very few club ships were ever damaged in farm-field-based landings.

Eventually, some instructors, almost certainly encouraged by a cycle of
XC-wannabe pilots (perhaps in situations similar to yours), began to offer
actual dual XC, and in the past 5-10 years the club has seen a blossoming of
XC-/contest-mentorship, using club 2-seaters. Time will tell how long this
lasts, but in the absence of 'disaster based scenarios,' history suggests that
- in this club, anyway - change and 'near-stasis' have years-long time constants.

One constant throughout the years has been that it has always been motivation
from the individual pilot that underlay growth of XC skills and comfort level.
FWIW, I 'self-taught' myself XC, almost exclusively in the intermountain west,
and almost exclusively alone (in shared flight path terms). Rarely scared
myself. Even more rarely ever put the ship at known risk (and then only once
per scenario, rueful head shaking). Had gobs of fun doing so. The only OFL
damage ever inflicted were minor fabric holes in the belly of a 1-26 from poor
choice of a plowed (only! - not disked) field. Never felt others were
hindering my learning. Eventually realized that no amount of proselytizing on
my part could induce anyone who was not yet ready to 'make the commitment' (to
learn XC) to join me, even when they were flying their own ships.

>
> I'm not anywhere near ready to fly a contest yet...but I want to be!
> But, from my perspective, it appears the barriers to "getting there" on
> developing good XC skills currently require a level of commitment (in
> time and money) that many weekend flyers look at...and walk away from.

Almost certainly exactly right, though I suspect many pilots don't actually
formalize the thought process so clearly.

All anyone needs, in order to be able to find some level of contest in which
their skills wouldn't guarantee them last place, is the genuine ability to 'be
comfortable with' making an off-field landing choice. The first contest in
which I ever flew (Marion, OH, in a 1-26), I finished 4th (of 12) and
absolutely crushed the reigning national 1-26 champion. My strategy was simply
to complete the course; da champ landed out on my flying day (there were 3 of
us sharing the ship). My next contest flight (the old Black Forest, CO) in an
HP-14 I again finished 4th because most everyone else landed out; I'd been
ready to numerous times, but was motivated by a dismal trailer to keep
plugging away. Both - and all other XC - flights were made 'easily mentally
possible' simply by previously-learning how to 'relaxedly' pick fields then -
if necessary - land in them. I'd made exactly 1 OFL prior to the Ohio flight,
and 3 more prior to the Colorado flight.

>
> Frank's article confirms this and offers some thoughts on fixing it
> (Condor)...but that won't solve all the problems. Maybe every Region
> should sponsor a Thermal/XC course for newbies (something like the folks
> up at Air Sailing put on) before each contest season????? Sounds like a
> good idea to me..
>
>
> RS
>

Have fun!
Bob W.

P.S. I've long used S-O-A-R as a mnemonic for choosing landing fields. "S" for
surface. If it's no good, no need to continue to the..."O" for obstructions
(on/to the surface, e.g. a lone tree, piece of farm equipment, oil well,
field-eating wires, etc.). Next to evaluate is..."A" for the approach. (I've
always [conservatively?] figured each field-edging obstruction [tree, fence,
whatever] makes 10 times its estimated height of the field unusable. The "R"
is for a rectangular approach; it's your insurance against landing downwind,
and insurance *for* choosing the best roundout spot, if the surface isn't uniform.

[Darryl Ramm]

On 9/7/11 1:14 PM, BobW wrote:
> On 9/6/2011 5:32 PM, RAS56 wrote:
>> As a relative newcomer to the sport, my 2 cents on why there's a general
>> decline in participation in contest soaring is that there is a general
>> lack of a structure and interest of "passing XC knowledge" along in the
>> soaring community to new guys. Folks just want to go to the gliderport
>> on Saturday, assemble and fly, and I can't necessarily blame them.
>
> You seem to have this aspect of weekend (U.S., club-based) soaring
> accurately diagnosed, IMO. The time some (not all) folks want to BS is
> *after* the day's soaring. *Then* is a great time to listen in and
> occasionally prime the pump with ad-hoc questions of personal interest.
> You'll soon figure out which pilots are genuinely interested in helping
> you ascend to the next level by sharing their own experience(s); bug
> 'em, they'll be happy to share.

Its sad that folks are having trouble finding XC mentors. This has just
*never* been my experience. Flying out of Hollister CA there were
several instructors and private owners willing to mentor, and local fun
races organized with the intention that new XC pilots can tag along.
Thanks especially to Ramy Yanetz for arranging the race series,
mentoring XC pilots and acting as lead pilot in lead and follow XC
flights. I have tried to return the favor, taking pilots up in a two
seater for their early XC flights and helping with lead and follow. BASA
(Bay Area Soaring Associates) really encourages new members to ride XC
in their DG-1000 or DG-505 with experienced XC members then get them
into the Pegasus etc. Air Sailing organizes thermalling and cross
country camps that are well regarded. Williams Soaring has experienced
XC instructors that can help take you XC in a Duo Discus or do
lead-follow. And there are experienced XC private owners who fly out of
Williams who do very good lead/follow mentoring. Morgan at Avenal has a
Duo Discus and is using it to really encourage/mentor XC soaring. I know
Cindy Brickner does great XC instructing/mentoring. Soaring NV does as
well. But yes I still know that there are places where this does not
happen and its sad. My best advice is ask politely, show you really are
interested and have read up, are prepared (studied the areas, landout
options, etc. and can already thermal OK, have flown small local
triangles around the home gliderport, have a flight recorder or some
other way to record flights and SeeYou to analyze flights if possible,
etc.). Then if you really cannot find somebody to help I'd advise going
elsewhere or taking a vacation trip to somewhere you can get high
quality mentoring help.

Darryl

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 10:59:49 -0700, jcarlyle wrote:

> RAS,
>
> I come down between John Cochrane and Alexander Georgas, and more with
> Dan Marotta - I suggest learning XC yourself. Please note that I’m
> limiting the discussion to learning XC in areas such as eastern
> Pennsylvania, under thermic conditions, nowhere near mountainous
> terrain, and with plenty of landable fields. Then, there are only 7
> steps you need to take to safely fly XC - 2 attitudinal, 3 flying, and 2
> organizational.
>
> The first step is deciding that you absolutely, truly want to fly a
> glider XC. There will be some discouraging times, and you must make a
> firm, unswerving commitment to keep on trying. The second step is firmly
> believing that thermals are everywhere. If the day is developing such
> that thermals are all around your home airport, you must have
> unquestioned confidence that they are also out there beyond gliding
> distance.
>
> The third step is practicing thermalling until you are able to keep the
> glider up several times for 3 hours, with a few climbs from down low
> each flight. This give you the confidence that you can not only find and
> work thermals, but that you won’t get rattled when you need altitude.
> The fourth step is practicing landing until you can put the glider down
> and stop it inside of a 300 foot distance, every time, no excuses. This
> gives you the confidence that if you can’t stay up, you have the skills
> needed to land the glider in a farmer’s field. The fifth step is
> identifying from the air suitable off field landing sites (I use the
> SSSSLOWW mnemonic - size, surface, slope, surroundings, livestock,
> obstructions, wind, wires). Good fields change with the season, and you
> must drive out afterwards to validate your choices until you don’t make
> mistakes
>
> The sixth step is always having a gassed up vehicle hooked up
> mechanically and electrically to a suitable trailer for retrieves. You
> are eventually going to land out somewhere where an aerotow isn’t
> possible, so always be prepared. The seventh step is always arranging
> with someone at the home airfield to retrieve you if it becomes
> necessary. The friend you think you can always rely upon to get you if
> you simply call him up might be on a business trip that day.
>
> That’s all you need! I don’t like the sorts of courses Alexander
> suggests, because in my view one tends to get quite discouraged,
> thinking that there is so much to learn that XC must be very difficult
> to do. John’s suggestion of a sports class regional is good, but only
> after you’ve learned how to fly XC. I was quite intimidated and very
> nervous during my first sports class regional, which if I’d had less
> confidence in my ability to fly an XC task would have been a deal
> breaker. Dan’s suggestion of asking questions of experienced XC pilots
> is quite good, and you should definitely do that. But I believe XC is
> something that you need to teach yourself, and you improve in direct
> proportion to the number of times you go out and do it.
>
> Whatever way you decide to go, though, RS, do make an attempt to try XC
> flight. It’s an amazing feeling of accomplishment, and it’ll open up a
> new soaring world for you.
>
Might I add that finding and working through a copy of Helmut Reichmann's
'Cross-country Soaring' may be a good idea, particularly what he has to
say about practising thermal entry, climbing and exit.

Also flying mini-triangles: lay out triangular courses with easily
visible turnpoints. These need not be more than five 5 miles from home in
any direction, or put them all within gliding range of the field at
first, and work on going faster round this course. You'll be surprised
how used you'd gotten to bimbling from one thermal to the next and what a
wrench it is to break this habit and stop to climb less often. You can
use almost any glider for this: I did quite a bit of it in the club's SZD
Juniors using a 26 mile triangle with its furthest point being 7.6 miles
from home and all three corners being local landmarks with the club's
field in the middle. Better yet, if you keep your furthest point within 5
miles of home, you can do this before you have any XC signoffs, At least
you can in the UK where local soaring is defined as staying within
gliding distance of home and doesn't require you to carry a map.

You can do this while working on your Silver badge, so I'd suggest you
start in on that ASAP because you can do two legs (height gain and
duration) while local soaring and treat the 50 km leg as your first solo
XC flight.

In my club this is the norm: a new solo pilot is encouraged to work on
his Bronze badge (50 solo flights of which at least two must exceed 30
minutes off the winch [60m off an aero tow to 2000ft or less], a written
test, a flying test [includes stalling, spinning and launch failures] and
observed field landings or spot landings on an specified and unusual part
of the field). Then you add the XC Endorsement to the Bronze (one and two
hour solo soaring flights plus dual seat field selection, field landing
and navigation exercises [we do these in a Schreibe motor glider]). All
these (the Silver height and duration legs and the Bronze endorsement 1
and 2 hour flights) can be and usually are done as some of the 50 Bronze
solo flights.

The field landing and navigation exercises are usually the last to be
done and then an instructor will brief the pilot and send him off on his
Silver distance on the first suitable day after he qualified for the
Bronze XC Endorsement.

Again, you don't need to fly anything special to do this: I did all my
solo flying up to and including Silver Distance in the club's SZD
Juniors, and all off the winch too: I got my solo aero-tow signoff after
my Silver C.

If your club doesn't have an equivalent program, you and any club mates
with similar experience could probably organize a similar program for
yourselves. I found it a good stepping stone. The experience of doing the
mini-triangles and the Silver Distance made the next step (the UK's 100km
diploma) a lot less daunting.

As to time, it took me almost exactly a year of weekend flying to go from
first solo to Silver C, but we had a lot of good soaring weather that
year and the Juniors had good availability, with 6 - 8 of us sharing them
that year. If I remember right, three of us got Silver Height on the same
day in them.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[jcarlyle]

I personally wouldn't suggest Reichmann to a budding XC pilot until he
had actually done some XC flying. For learning about thermalling, I'd
steer them towards "Thermalling Made Easy" by Bob Wander and
"Thermals" by Rolf Hertenstein.

Don't get me wrong, Reichmann is an excellent resource, he covers XC
flying thoroughly, and he has some great exercises. The problem for me
is his writing style - it's dense and very hard to get through. Heck,
I've had quantum mechanic texts that were more accessible! It took
several readings before I could truly say that I understood the
concepts Reichmann was explaining. Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised to
learn that Reichmann's book is a big reason for XC flying being viewed
as difficult.

-John

On Sep 7, 8:32 pm, Martin Gregorie >
wrote:
> Might I add that finding and working through a copy of Helmut Reichmann's
> 'Cross-country Soaring' may be a good idea, particularly what he has to
> say about practising thermal entry, climbing and exit.
>
> Also flying mini-triangles: lay out triangular courses with easily
> visible turnpoints. These need not be more than five 5 miles from home in
> any direction, or put them all within gliding range of the field at
> first, and work on going faster round this course. You'll be surprised
> how used you'd gotten to bimbling from one thermal to the next and what a
> wrench it is to break this habit and stop to climb less often. You can
> use almost any glider for this: I did quite a bit of it in the club's SZD
> Juniors using a 26 mile triangle with its furthest point being 7.6 miles
> from home and all three corners being local landmarks with the club's
> field in the middle. Better yet, if you keep your furthest point within 5
> miles of home, you can do this before you have any XC signoffs, At least
> you can in the UK where local soaring is defined as staying within
> gliding distance of home and doesn't require you to carry a map.
>
> [snip]
> --
> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> org |

[[email protected]]

On Sep 7, 12:07*pm, John Cochrane >
wrote:
> On Sep 6, 6:32*pm, RAS56 > wrote:
>
> > As a relative newcomer to the sport, my 2 cents on why there's a general
> > decline in participation in contest soaring is that there is a general
> > lack of a structure and interest of "passing XC knowledge" along in the
> > soaring community to new guys. Folks just want to go to the gliderport
> > on Saturday, assemble and fly, and I can't necessarily blame them.
> > > RS
>
> > --
> > RAS56
>
> This is exactly what a *sports class regional is set up to accomplish!
>
> I think there's a huge misunderstanding here about what it takes to
> "be ready" to go to a sports class regional. No, you don't have to
> profile the wings, install a new computer, and get a thousand hours of
> cross country. You need one silver badge distance flight or its
> equivalent on OLC. Period. That's not much!
>
> Then, the whole point of sports class regionals is to bring new pilots
> who are just getting going, and provide exactly the mentoring you're
> looking for. Every regional provides a "mentoring" sytsem where you
> will have your own personally assigned buddy. Many have explicit
> "newbie" classes in the mornings.
>
> The structure and interest for passing on knowledge is there! It's
> called a sports class regionals.
>
> John Cochrane

John is quite correct.
Sports Regionals are a training ground.
Entry requirements are not restrictive. Silver distance or OLC
documented equivalent.
I've been running "rookie schools" in the Regionals I attend for more
than 20 years. We do ground school and mentor
pilots every day.
WE also try to regonize the best rookie pilot flight in the daily
meetings. Commonly, these are more interesting than the ones by the
experienced pilots.
I have also done a ride program similar to KS to show what it is like.
We let it be known that we are doing this and get good participation.
Walt Rogers communicated with me about R12 and had planned to possibly
do such a school. In addition, his plan was to task the Sports and the
"BIg Guys" quite differently so that newbies would not be intimidated
and would have a good time.
I guess that message didn't get received or there really was no
interest. I thought he was on the right track.
The US rules committee is planning on adding a second poll this year,
in addition to the usual rules topic poll, to get feedback from the
pilot population on the topic of contest participation.
UH

[Dan Marotta]

"glidergeek" > wrote in message
...
On Sep 7, 6:56 am, "Dan Marotta" > wrote:
> What is stopping you from following one of the more experienced pilots as
> he
> goes out on a task? What stops you from asking questions?
>
> When I was learning to "cut the cord", that's what I did. Some of the
> pilots were real snobs and had no time to talk with inexperienced guys,
> others were open, friendly, and helpful. Find them. Don't let the lack of
> "cross country instruction" keep you from enjoying the benefits!
>
> "RAS56" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > As a relative newcomer to the sport, my 2 cents on why there's a general
> > decline in participation in contest soaring is that there is a general
> > lack of a structure and interest of "passing XC knowledge" along in the
> > soaring community to new guys. Folks just want to go to the gliderport
> > on Saturday, assemble and fly, and I can't necessarily blame them.
>
> > Frank Paynter detailed many of these problems very precisely in the
> > latest issue of Soaring Magazine in the Condor column. Go read it...I've
> > encountered most of the problems he highlights and in fact have
> > communicated with him about my experiences and thoughts.
>
> > I started a thread about obtaining XC instruction a while back on this
> > forum in search of info. Sure, it's out there commercially if I want to
> > drop 3 grand (plus airfare and expenses) for a week's instruction....or
> > if I want to trailer my rig 1/2 way across country I might be able to
> > attend some "XC camps"...but why shouldn't we be able to obtain some of
> > this knowledge "locally" (or regionally) or perhaps by doing some online
> > training sponsored by the SSA? I don't want to "learn under fire" by
> > participating in a actual contest without picking up basic skills to
> > keep me out of trouble first.
>
> > You want more contest participation? Get more guys comfortable with
> > leaving the local area and going XC and I'll bet contest participation
> > will increase as well.
>
> > I'm not anywhere near ready to fly a contest yet...but I want to be!
> > But, from my perspective, it appears the barriers to "getting there" on
> > developing good XC skills currently require a level of commitment (in
> > time and money) that many weekend flyers look at...and walk away from.
>
> > Frank's article confirms this and offers some thoughts on fixing it
> > (Condor)...but that won't solve all the problems. Maybe every Region
> > should sponsor a Thermal/XC course for newbies (something like the folks
> > up at Air Sailing put on) before each contest season????? Sounds like a
> > good idea to me..
>
> > RS
>
> > --
> > RAS56

"What is stopping you from following one of the more experienced
pilots as he
goes out on a task? What stops you from asking questions?"

Dan I'm a bit of an experienced xc pilot. If you haven't noticed most
highly experienced xc pilots (don't include me on this or maybe you
either) don't have the time or want to extend the time to mentor low
time pilots (some do & will). Following? How does a new guy follow an
experienced pilot that's hot to go? Most have the mentality of "hey
learn it yourself, I had to and there's books on this subject". Yes
the other option is spend a few hundred or a couple thousand $'s on
training. Also look at a guy like Tony Smolder (excellent pilot), when
he lived in Arizona he couldn't fly under 500k per flight, he's back
east now and he has a hard time getting a flight over 300k.back east.

Timing and location. Keep launching and looking for thermals, ask
questions if you can't get an answer ask someone else.
RS it will come with time and experience keep at it fly often

----------------------

After some 25 years of XC gliding, I still don't consider myself "expert".
I recall following one of the "experienced" guys (and gals) until losing
sight and then picking up on another one of them or chickening out and going
home. Those who have no time to mentor are quickly identified and ignored.
Above all, ask questions and listen to the answers and evaluate and follow
or ignore the advice.

Example: My club at the time was having a weekend contest and, on the
practice day, I started following one of the women out on task. She quickly
left me behind, finishing the 100 km or so task more than an hour faster
than I did. So, on the ground afterwards, I asked her how she finished so
quickly compared to my time. She said, "Don't circle so much. Leave the
thermal and head out." The following weekend at the contest, I took first
place in sports class simply by following her advice. BTW, I beat her that
time, too!

My opinion is that XC flying can't be taught. Theories can be taught, but
it's up to the pilot to put them into practice. My biggest concern with XC
flying is landing out. Not the landing itself - that's an adventure and, if
you're sensible about where you fly, it's not much more dangerous than
landing at home. My concern is that I generally don't have a crew to come
and get me so I have to fly more conservatively.

Read Reichmann's book, "Cross Country Soaring". Not only will you learn a
LOT, but you'll really enjoy it.

Dan

[Dan Marotta]

BRILLIANT! Absolutely brilliant.

You have nailed perfectly what I've tried (poorly) to convey. I wish you'd
been ther 25 years ago to tell me that.

Dan



"jcarlyle" > wrote in message
...
RAS,

I come down between John Cochrane and Alexander Georgas, and more with
Dan Marotta - I suggest learning XC yourself. Please note that I’m
limiting the discussion to learning XC in areas such as eastern
Pennsylvania, under thermic conditions, nowhere near mountainous
terrain, and with plenty of landable fields. Then, there are only 7
steps you need to take to safely fly XC - 2 attitudinal, 3 flying, and
2 organizational.

The first step is deciding that you absolutely, truly want to fly a
glider XC. There will be some discouraging times, and you must make a
firm, unswerving commitment to keep on trying. The second step is
firmly believing that thermals are everywhere. If the day is
developing such that thermals are all around your home airport, you
must have unquestioned confidence that they are also out there beyond
gliding distance.

The third step is practicing thermalling until you are able to keep
the glider up several times for 3 hours, with a few climbs from down
low each flight. This give you the confidence that you can not only
find and work thermals, but that you won’t get rattled when you need
altitude. The fourth step is practicing landing until you can put the
glider down and stop it inside of a 300 foot distance, every time, no
excuses. This gives you the confidence that if you can’t stay up, you
have the skills needed to land the glider in a farmer’s field. The
fifth step is identifying from the air suitable off field landing
sites (I use the SSSSLOWW mnemonic - size, surface, slope,
surroundings, livestock, obstructions, wind, wires). Good fields
change with the season, and you must drive out afterwards to validate
your choices until you don’t make mistakes

The sixth step is always having a gassed up vehicle hooked up
mechanically and electrically to a suitable trailer for retrieves. You
are eventually going to land out somewhere where an aerotow isn’t
possible, so always be prepared. The seventh step is always arranging
with someone at the home airfield to retrieve you if it becomes
necessary. The friend you think you can always rely upon to get you if
you simply call him up might be on a business trip that day.

That’s all you need! I don’t like the sorts of courses Alexander
suggests, because in my view one tends to get quite discouraged,
thinking that there is so much to learn that XC must be very difficult
to do. John’s suggestion of a sports class regional is good, but only
after you’ve learned how to fly XC. I was quite intimidated and very
nervous during my first sports class regional, which if I’d had less
confidence in my ability to fly an XC task would have been a deal
breaker. Dan’s suggestion of asking questions of experienced XC pilots
is quite good, and you should definitely do that. But I believe XC is
something that you need to teach yourself, and you improve in direct
proportion to the number of times you go out and do it.

Whatever way you decide to go, though, RS, do make an attempt to try
XC flight. It’s an amazing feeling of accomplishment, and it’ll open
up a new soaring world for you.

-John

On Sep 6, 7:32 pm, RAS56 > wrote:
> As a relative newcomer to the sport, my 2 cents on why there's a general
> decline in participation in contest soaring is that there is a general
> lack of a structure and interest of "passing XC knowledge" along in the
> soaring community to new guys. Folks just want to go to the gliderport
> on Saturday, assemble and fly, and I can't necessarily blame them.
>
> Frank Paynter detailed many of these problems very precisely in the
> latest issue of Soaring Magazine in the Condor column. Go read it...I've
> encountered most of the problems he highlights and in fact have
> communicated with him about my experiences and thoughts.
>
> I started a thread about obtaining XC instruction a while back on this
> forum in search of info. Sure, it's out there commercially if I want to
> drop 3 grand (plus airfare and expenses) for a week's instruction....or
> if I want to trailer my rig 1/2 way across country I might be able to
> attend some "XC camps"...but why shouldn't we be able to obtain some of
> this knowledge "locally" (or regionally) or perhaps by doing some online
> training sponsored by the SSA? I don't want to "learn under fire" by
> participating in a actual contest without picking up basic skills to
> keep me out of trouble first.
>
> You want more contest participation? Get more guys comfortable with
> leaving the local area and going XC and I'll bet contest participation
> will increase as well.
>
> I'm not anywhere near ready to fly a contest yet...but I want to be!
> But, from my perspective, it appears the barriers to "getting there" on
> developing good XC skills currently require a level of commitment (in
> time and money) that many weekend flyers look at...and walk away from.
>
> Frank's article confirms this and offers some thoughts on fixing it
> (Condor)...but that won't solve all the problems. Maybe every Region
> should sponsor a Thermal/XC course for newbies (something like the folks
> up at Air Sailing put on) before each contest season????? Sounds like a
> good idea to me..
>
> RS
>
> --
> RAS56

[HoUdino]

Condor doesn't eliminate the fear of doing "it" the first time.

"It" is landing out.

Most GFIGs are not particularly good at XC, focusing on beginners not
XC.

No CFIG wants to "land out", all want to return to home field for the
next paying customer...this is subconciously planted in every students
mind.

.................................................. ............................................
The #1 learning event that got me flying XC was getting in my car and
physically looking at every field I thought I might land in with
camera...slope, wind, obsticals, GPS coordinates, etc. This greatly
reduced the fear of "landing out".

My club has organized early season "field trips" to do this
basic...which have been alot of fun, especially for those on
motorcycles. We take tools to clear fields, streamers to indicate
wind, and cold beer to BS with.

Once you have or while you are getting your Silver Badge, go to a
contest, any contest, as pilot or crew, and listen with both ears wide
open.

LT

[Alexander Georgas[_2_]]

On 08/09/2011 19:35, HoUdino wrote:
> Condor doesn't eliminate the fear of doing "it" the first time.
>
> "It" is landing out.
>
> Most GFIGs are not particularly good at XC, focusing on beginners not
> XC.
>
> No CFIG wants to "land out", all want to return to home field for the
> next paying customer...this is subconciously planted in every students
> mind.
>
> .................................................. ...........................................
> The #1 learning event that got me flying XC was getting in my car and
> physically looking at every field I thought I might land in with
> camera...slope, wind, obsticals, GPS coordinates, etc. This greatly
> reduced the fear of "landing out".
>
> My club has organized early season "field trips" to do this
> basic...which have been alot of fun, especially for those on
> motorcycles. We take tools to clear fields, streamers to indicate
> wind, and cold beer to BS with.
>
> Once you have or while you are getting your Silver Badge, go to a
> contest, any contest, as pilot or crew, and listen with both ears wide
> open.
>
> LT
>

Yes, this is all true!

Also, as you say, one would be foolish to start on a cross-country first
time without doing a number of necessary things in preparation: Get in
your car and walk some fields you may land. Study your map. Learn your
machine and be able to land it very short, etc...

What condor is brilliant at is two things:
1) making you internalize a number of decisions you will need to be
making while cross-country. You can get used to this work flow for free
and get better and better at it. The big bonus the first time around,
and the next few times, is that since this type of decision making has
become second nature, the workload for the flight is lighter and you can
concentrate on what is most important and fly safer
2) the second thing is that after flying in Condor for a while you will
realize what you will realize after flying your first cross-countries:
if the weather is there, the lift will be there as well. Believe in the
weather and search it out rather than worrying about where the home
field is. It is this realization that probably marks the true transition
between local and cross-country flying. In Condor, you get a preview of
this for free.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Sep 9, 4:35*am, HoUdino > wrote:
> The #1 learning event that got me flying XC was getting in my car and
> physically looking at every field I thought I might land in with
> camera...slope, wind, obsticals, GPS coordinates, etc. *This greatly
> reduced the fear of "landing out".

Absolutely.

All the pros know where all the good landing fields are. Usually
they've had to use them all a few times!

You don't even need to know all that many -- maybe every 15- 20 km or
so if you've usually flying around 3000 ft AGL like we are here.
Certainly every 10 km -- always having a known good field within 5 km
in front or of behind you -- is getting towards overkill.

If you're thermal flying then the usual reason for landouts is that
the day has died. In that case you can be pretty sure of being able to
final glide quite a way to a good field .. sniffing for that one last
thermal on the way of course.

If you're doing wave/ridge flying in high winds then there is a much
higher chance of getting "dumped" and losing height rapidly. If you're
doing glides from one ridge to another then you really want to know
some landable place close to the start of each ridge in case you get
there too low or you get there and it's simply not working.

[RAS56]

Thanks to all for the interesting and varied replies. My apologies to the thread starter, I didn't mean to hijack the topic, but it appears me putting my 2 cents in did just that! I've learned quite a bit just from reading through the responses..

My opinion was based on my experience level as a post-Bronze Pre-Silver badged pilot. Sports Class contests are closed to me, and it seems like there is a scarcity of options towards getting there. Trust me, my club has an active XC soaring community, including some of world renown..and I have spent plenty of time at the club house gleaning nuggets from these sages to use in my flying....but we have no real XC instructors, not much in the way of mentoring and no real program to get guys their Silver. Taking a club ship out of the local area is generally verboten, and although we have some provisions for allowing it to be done, I've never seen it happen.

Once again...my opinion and mine only..."generally" the soaring community makes it harder than it needs to be to get fledgling eagles out of the nest. Paynter recognized it in his article....heck even the SSA/SSF admits there's a problem! Consider the following taken from the "Cross Country Handbook" written back in 2002 which I found on the SSF's website:

http://www.soaringsafety.org/dl/Cross-CountryHandbook.pdf


"Dear Cross-Country Student:

The SSA instituted the Master Instructor Cross-Country Program in response to member
demands for better access to cross-country instruction. This Handbook has been
developed as a guide for students attending cross-country camps and other pilots starting
out to fly cross-country. It summarizes the knowledge and skills needed to fly
successfully cross-country. It assumes that you already have acquired (and retain) the
knowledge and skills required to pass the knowledge and practical tests for the FAA
private pilot glider rating.
You will observe that the contents of this Handbook are expressed in the form of ground
and flight instruction. While many successful cross-country pilots have been self-taught,
this is somewhat analogous to jumping in at the deep end and teaching yourself to swim
straight after you discovered you could float and, perhaps, after having read ‘Swimming
for Dummies’. A much better way, both safer and quicker, is to learn with the help of a
qualified instructor.
Many glider pilots who have not flown cross-country, even those who have demonstrated
good local soaring skills, perceive barriers to safe and successful cross-country flight.
Some of these are physical - a lack of the various skills needed to make a safe and
successful cross-country flight; and some of these are psychological - probably
generalized as a fear of not getting to the planned goal, and being forced to endure the
risks and danger of an off-field landing, with no assurance of the safe outcome. These
psychological fears have likely been increased by personal experience, e.g. when pressing
further away from the home field, finding a couple of good looking clouds in succession
but discovering nothing except heavy sink, engendering a lack of confidence in the ability
to stay up. In addition, turning away from the home field, breaking the umbilical cord and
getting beyond gliding distance from it, is the opposite of what all previous flights have
involved, namely getting back safely.
The ground and flight instruction contemplated in this Handbook is intended, in part, to
contribute to a confidence building process to address and break down these
psychological barriers. This includes actually making landings at new fields, and
executing soaring flights which remain within gliding distance of an airport. You should
remember that the underlying logic of safe cross-country flight is based on the premise
that the probability of finding another thermal down the chosen route is just as high as
finding one close to your home field."

Notice in the above how important it is to have a XC instructor as part of your learning matrix and they acknowledge the reluctance most have to "just jump out there and do it!!" and concur with most folks decision to pass on a plan like that.

My plan now consists of continuing to plod along and essentially "self-teach" until/unless I can justify a long-distance trip to get some quality instruction. Fly Condor. Get really good at flying my glider and until I know I can put it where I want, when I want.

Thanks again for all the advice, opinion, and wisdom. It's the mix of those characteristics that draws me back to this forum daily.

Regards,

RAS