"Joy of Soaring" Book

[Carl B]

I have just heard that the SSA is no longer going to supply "The Joy
of Soaring". This is the book that I have recommended to ab initio
students and it has been well accepted. What are other instructors
recommending to their ab initio students? Thanks.

Carl

[Tom[_12_]]

The SSA has recently mailed a letter to the membership regarding the
continuing unacceptable accident rate. Studies have shown one of the
primary reasons for a high accident rate is a fundemental lack of
knowledge. The Joy of Soaring was written as a simple coffee table
book. It was never designed to be a flight training manual.


Tom Knauff

[Brad[_2_]]

On Sep 5, 11:24*am, Tom > wrote:
> The SSA has recently mailed a letter to the membership regarding the
> continuing unacceptable accident rate. Studies have shown one of the
> primary reasons for a high accident rate is a fundemental lack of
> knowledge. The Joy of Soaring was written as a simple coffee table
> book. It was never designed to be a flight training manual.
>
> Tom Knauff

30 years ago my instructor at Issaquah Soaring sold me a copy of this
book...............30 years later and a few thousand hours of flight
time and I'm still accident free......maybe it's not the book?

Brad

[S. Murry]

Maybe SSA needs a new book: "The Pain of Crashing." That would certainly
cause the accident rate to decrease...

--Stefan

On Mon, 05 Sep 2011 13:31:05 -0500, Brad > wrote:

> On Sep 5, 11:24 am, Tom > wrote:
>> The SSA has recently mailed a letter to the membership regarding the
>> continuing unacceptable accident rate. Studies have shown one of the
>> primary reasons for a high accident rate is a fundemental lack of
>> knowledge. The Joy of Soaring was written as a simple coffee table
>> book. It was never designed to be a flight training manual.
>>
>> Tom Knauff
>
> 30 years ago my instructor at Issaquah Soaring sold me a copy of this
> book...............30 years later and a few thousand hours of flight
> time and I'm still accident free......maybe it's not the book?
>
> Brad


--
Stefan Murry

[Andrew[_11_]]

The FAA's "Glider Flying Handbook" and Tom's books.

On Sep 5, 2:10*pm, Carl B > wrote:
> I have just heard that the SSA is no longer going to supply "The Joy
> of Soaring". *This is the book that I have recommended to ab initio
> students and it has been well accepted. *What are other instructors
> recommending to their ab initio students? *Thanks.
>
> Carl

[Brad[_2_]]

On Sep 5, 11:39*am, Andrew > wrote:
> The FAA's "Glider Flying Handbook" and Tom's books.
>
> On Sep 5, 2:10*pm, Carl B > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I have just heard that the SSA is no longer going to supply "The Joy
> > of Soaring". *This is the book that I have recommended to ab initio
> > students and it has been well accepted. *What are other instructors
> > recommending to their ab initio students? *Thanks.
>
> > Carl

Tom's books................of course!

[Gary[_5_]]

On Sep 5, 2:39*pm, Andrew > wrote:
> The FAA's "Glider Flying Handbook" and Tom's books.
>
> On Sep 5, 2:10*pm, Carl B > wrote:
>
>
>
> > I have just heard that the SSA is no longer going to supply "The Joy
> > of Soaring". *This is the book that I have recommended to ab initio
> > students and it has been well accepted. *What are other instructors
> > recommending to their ab initio students? *Thanks.
>
> > Carl- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I agree with Andrew....my fiance recently started taking lessons, so
she pulled "Glider Basics" and the FAA Handbook (Tom's revision) from
the shelves. After starting with the handbook, she said she felt as if
she were back in grad school. She quickly learned that for somebody
brand new the Glider Basic's book was easy to understand and apply to
what she was doing in the air. It did not overwhelm her.

When I learned to fly in the early '70's we had two books, Joy of
Soaring and Richard Walter's book, both of which have their place
today.....on the book shelf along with other historical refernces.

Gary Adams

[[email protected]]

On Sep 5, 2:10*pm, Carl B > wrote:
> I have just heard that the SSA is no longer going to supply "The Joy
> of Soaring". *This is the book that I have recommended to ab initio
> students and it has been well accepted. *What are other instructors
> recommending to their ab initio students? *Thanks.
>
> Carl

The GFH and the two Russell Holtz books

[SRM]

On Sep 5, 1:10*pm, Carl B > wrote:
> I have just heard that the SSA is no longer going to supply "The Joy
> of Soaring". *This is the book that I have recommended to ab initio
> students and it has been well accepted. *What are other instructors
> recommending to their ab initio students? *Thanks.
>
> Carl

In my opinion, the best materials on the market are Russ Holtz's
GliderBooks. I also like and use Bob Wander's materials and the
F.A.A. Glider Flying Handbook. I especially like the progress
tracking forms available with GliderBooks. I use the progress records
to keep track of my students, to do lesson planning, and keep the
student in the loop on their progress (a very important practice).
The progress records can be invaluable in situations (e.g. clubs)
where students have multiple instructors.

By the way, what I have found lacking in all available glider flight
training materials is what I refer to as lesson sequencing or a
mapping of prerequisite skills. For example:
- in order to fly a landing approach in a glider, you must first have
mastered airspeed control, coordinated turns, and descent control.
- mastery of steep turns is a prerequisite to flying in thermals.
- mastery of crabbing and slipping flight must precede cross-wind
approaches, landings, and takeoffs.

To that end, I have developed a lesson sequencing diagram. I'm happy
to share it with anyone who requests a copy. It is a Microsoft Excel
document. Email me at ".

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 9/5/2011 11:31 AM, Brad wrote:
> On Sep 5, 11:24 am, > wrote:
>> The SSA has recently mailed a letter to the membership regarding the
>> continuing unacceptable accident rate. Studies have shown one of the
>> primary reasons for a high accident rate is a fundemental lack of
>> knowledge. The Joy of Soaring was written as a simple coffee table
>> book. It was never designed to be a flight training manual.
>>
>> Tom Knauff
>
> 30 years ago my instructor at Issaquah Soaring sold me a copy of this
> book...............30 years later and a few thousand hours of flight
> time and I'm still accident free......maybe it's not the book?

I'm sure the SSA had every intention it would serve as a flight training
book, as did the author. Like Brad, I'm at 30 years and a few thousand
hours later, and I also used it as a manual for many years as a CFIG.
It's probably not the best choice now, but it was a good choice then.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[T8]

On Sep 6, 12:41*am, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> On 9/5/2011 11:31 AM, Brad wrote:
>
> > On Sep 5, 11:24 am, > *wrote:
> >> The SSA has recently mailed a letter to the membership regarding the
> >> continuing unacceptable accident rate. Studies have shown one of the
> >> primary reasons for a high accident rate is a fundemental lack of
> >> knowledge. The Joy of Soaring was written as a simple coffee table
> >> book. It was never designed to be a flight training manual.
>
> >> Tom Knauff
>
> > 30 years ago my instructor at Issaquah Soaring sold me a copy of this
> > book...............30 years later and a few thousand hours of flight
> > time and I'm still accident free......maybe it's not the book?
>
> I'm sure the SSA had every intention it would serve as a flight training
> book, as did the author. Like Brad, I'm at 30 years and a few thousand
> hours later, and I also used it as a manual for many years as a CFIG.
> It's probably not the best choice now, but it was a good choice then.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
> email me)

I loved Joy of Soaring 25 years ago, don't particularly like seeing it
slagged off here either.

It taught the simple subject of basic stick and rudder airmanship to
this student, quite well. I'm quite confident in saying that if a
student masters the basics as presented in Joy of Soaring, and sticks
to them, they won't crash.

I'm not buying "fundamental lack of knowledge" just yet, either. It
doesn't square up with my personal observations. Whose studies?
Published where?

-Evan Ludeman / T8

[Brad[_2_]]

On Sep 6, 3:57*am, T8 > wrote:
> On Sep 6, 12:41*am, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 9/5/2011 11:31 AM, Brad wrote:
>
> > > On Sep 5, 11:24 am, > *wrote:
> > >> The SSA has recently mailed a letter to the membership regarding the
> > >> continuing unacceptable accident rate. Studies have shown one of the
> > >> primary reasons for a high accident rate is a fundemental lack of
> > >> knowledge. The Joy of Soaring was written as a simple coffee table
> > >> book. It was never designed to be a flight training manual.
>
> > >> Tom Knauff
>
> > > 30 years ago my instructor at Issaquah Soaring sold me a copy of this
> > > book...............30 years later and a few thousand hours of flight
> > > time and I'm still accident free......maybe it's not the book?
>
> > I'm sure the SSA had every intention it would serve as a flight training
> > book, as did the author. Like Brad, I'm at 30 years and a few thousand
> > hours later, and I also used it as a manual for many years as a CFIG.
> > It's probably not the best choice now, but it was a good choice then.
>
> > --
> > Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
> > email me)
>
> I loved Joy of Soaring 25 years ago, don't particularly like seeing it
> slagged off here either.
>
> It taught the simple subject of basic stick and rudder airmanship to
> this student, quite well. *I'm quite confident in saying that *if a
> student masters the basics as presented in Joy of Soaring, and sticks
> to them, they won't crash.
>
> I'm not buying "fundamental lack of knowledge" just yet, either. *It
> doesn't square up with my personal observations. *Whose studies?
> Published where?
>
> -Evan Ludeman / T8

What worries me more are the folks that claim soaring simulators like
Condor do a great job of prepping pilots for a variety of conditions.
I have never used it, but I can't see how it in any way can prepare a
pilot for a windy day up against a rock wall in windy thermal
conditions. I'm sure the book "Joy of Soaring" mentions something
about flying in these conditions and what to look for, but I can't
imagine anyone actually flying in those conditions would be up there
because they read how to do it in that book, conversely, after parking
in front of a simulator for a few hours there might be some pilots who
feel they are ready to head out and give it a try.

Brad

[Ramy]

On Sep 6, 3:57*am, T8 > wrote:
> On Sep 6, 12:41*am, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 9/5/2011 11:31 AM, Brad wrote:
>
> > > On Sep 5, 11:24 am, > *wrote:
> > >> The SSA has recently mailed a letter to the membership regarding the
> > >> continuing unacceptable accident rate. Studies have shown one of the
> > >> primary reasons for a high accident rate is a fundemental lack of
> > >> knowledge. The Joy of Soaring was written as a simple coffee table
> > >> book. It was never designed to be a flight training manual.
>
> > >> Tom Knauff
>
> > > 30 years ago my instructor at Issaquah Soaring sold me a copy of this
> > > book...............30 years later and a few thousand hours of flight
> > > time and I'm still accident free......maybe it's not the book?
>
> > I'm sure the SSA had every intention it would serve as a flight training
> > book, as did the author. Like Brad, I'm at 30 years and a few thousand
> > hours later, and I also used it as a manual for many years as a CFIG.
> > It's probably not the best choice now, but it was a good choice then.
>
> > --
> > Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
> > email me)
>
> I loved Joy of Soaring 25 years ago, don't particularly like seeing it
> slagged off here either.
>
> It taught the simple subject of basic stick and rudder airmanship to
> this student, quite well. *I'm quite confident in saying that *if a
> student masters the basics as presented in Joy of Soaring, and sticks
> to them, they won't crash.
>
> I'm not buying "fundamental lack of knowledge" just yet, either. *It
> doesn't square up with my personal observations. *Whose studies?
> Published where?
>
> -Evan Ludeman / T8

Accidents happen due to human nature to make mistakes, NOT due to
fundamental lack of knowledge! None of the accidents I am familiar
with were due to lack of knowledge. Just look at the statistics. Most
accidents, especially this year, happened to very experienced pilots,
commercial pilots and CFIG!
Writing more books will not change that. Discussing accidents such as
on RAS is more effective than books IMHO.

Ramy

Ramy

Ramy

[Bill D]

On Sep 6, 8:12*am, Brad > wrote:
> On Sep 6, 3:57*am, T8 > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 6, 12:41*am, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
>
> > > On 9/5/2011 11:31 AM, Brad wrote:
>
> > > > On Sep 5, 11:24 am, > *wrote:
> > > >> The SSA has recently mailed a letter to the membership regarding the
> > > >> continuing unacceptable accident rate. Studies have shown one of the
> > > >> primary reasons for a high accident rate is a fundemental lack of
> > > >> knowledge. The Joy of Soaring was written as a simple coffee table
> > > >> book. It was never designed to be a flight training manual.
>
> > > >> Tom Knauff
>
> > > > 30 years ago my instructor at Issaquah Soaring sold me a copy of this
> > > > book...............30 years later and a few thousand hours of flight
> > > > time and I'm still accident free......maybe it's not the book?
>
> > > I'm sure the SSA had every intention it would serve as a flight training
> > > book, as did the author. Like Brad, I'm at 30 years and a few thousand
> > > hours later, and I also used it as a manual for many years as a CFIG.
> > > It's probably not the best choice now, but it was a good choice then.
>
> > > --
> > > Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
> > > email me)
>
> > I loved Joy of Soaring 25 years ago, don't particularly like seeing it
> > slagged off here either.
>
> > It taught the simple subject of basic stick and rudder airmanship to
> > this student, quite well. *I'm quite confident in saying that *if a
> > student masters the basics as presented in Joy of Soaring, and sticks
> > to them, they won't crash.
>
> > I'm not buying "fundamental lack of knowledge" just yet, either. *It
> > doesn't square up with my personal observations. *Whose studies?
> > Published where?
>
> > -Evan Ludeman / T8
>
> What worries me more are the folks that claim soaring simulators like
> Condor do a great job of prepping pilots for a variety of conditions.
> I have never used it, but I can't see how it in any way can prepare a
> pilot for a windy day up against a rock wall in windy thermal
> conditions. I'm sure the book "Joy of Soaring" mentions something
> about flying in these conditions and what to look for, but I can't
> imagine anyone actually flying in those conditions would be up there
> because they read how to do it in that book, conversely, after parking
> in front of a simulator for a few hours there might be some pilots who
> feel they are ready to head out and give it a try.
>
> Brad

Condor flight simulator is a huge asset to any instructor who chooses
to use it with students. The key to success is not the sim, it's the
instructor. There are few situations which cannot be accurately
simulated and a good instructor can work through them with a student
to good effect.

The the airplane world, simulators have proven a huge asset. However,
they are always used with an instructor at the console setting up
realistic scenarios. Students are rarely left on their own to learn
with a simulator.

[Bill D]

On Sep 5, 12:24*pm, Tom > wrote:
> The SSA has recently mailed a letter to the membership regarding the
> continuing unacceptable accident rate. Studies have shown one of the
> primary reasons for a high accident rate is a fundemental lack of
> knowledge. The Joy of Soaring was written as a simple coffee table
> book. It was never designed to be a flight training manual.
>
> Tom Knauff

Right on all points.

Bill Daniels

[ray conlon]

On Sep 6, 2:37*pm, Bill D > wrote:
> On Sep 5, 12:24*pm, Tom > wrote:
>
> > The SSA has recently mailed a letter to the membership regarding the
> > continuing unacceptable accident rate. Studies have shown one of the
> > primary reasons for a high accident rate is a fundemental lack of
> > knowledge. The Joy of Soaring was written as a simple coffee table
> > book. It was never designed to be a flight training manual.
>
> > Tom Knauff
>
> Right on all points.
>
> Bill Daniels

I always found any knowledge is a good thing, the Joy of Soaring is a
wonderful place to start and expand on from it's basic concepts,
speaking for myself I am/was no Chuck Yeager and anything I can learn
from is welcomed..

[BobW]

On 9/6/2011 1:08 PM, ray conlon wrote:
> On Sep 6, 2:37 pm, Bill > wrote:
>> On Sep 5, 12:24 pm, > wrote:
>>
>>> The SSA has recently mailed a letter to the membership regarding the
>>> continuing unacceptable accident rate. Studies have shown one of the
>>> primary reasons for a high accident rate is a fundemental lack of
>>> knowledge. The Joy of Soaring was written as a simple coffee table
>>> book. It was never designed to be a flight training manual.
>>
>>> Tom Knauff
>>
>> Right on all points.
>>
>> Bill Daniels
>
> I always found any knowledge is a good thing, the Joy of Soaring is a
> wonderful place to start and expand on from it's basic concepts,
> speaking for myself I am/was no Chuck Yeager and anything I can learn
> from is welcomed..

"What Ray said."

N.B.: I greatly respect Tom Knauff's opinions regarding instruction
methodologies, the importance of the law of primacy, which books do a
better/not-so-good job presenting the basics, etc. Why?

Quantity of students instructed-to-license:
Tom Knauff - Lots, over 3+ decades.
Me - Zero.

That said, and with a nod to the law of primacy's power over what Tom calls
the reptilian part of our brain (which Tom argues takes over in moments of
great stress), the rational part of my brain genuinely struggles with the
precept that 'proper training' in conjunction with 'accurate self-generated
continuing analyses' are INcapable of overcoming the law of primacy.

In a nutshell, that's what (any) training is all about.

In other words, even if a person has - for whatever reason and in whatever
manner - managed to initially learn some
bad/incorrect/potentially-life-threatening information prior to obtaining
'Knauff-worthy' instruction on the matter, I'm inclined to believe that the
new information can indeed permanently and successfully replace the
old/bad/incorrect information...even in moments of great stress.

For example, consider stalls. I dare say some measurable percentage of
existing glider pilots once thought pulling back on the stick was 'the thing
to do,' even if only when 10 years old. I also believe it's possible for this
bad information to be 'trained out of wannabe pilots.' It may take more time,
and it's probably the wise instructor who tends to probe new-to-them,
ab-initio students' concepts of certain potentially life-threatening
situations/ideas/concepts (e.g. stalls - what they are and what to do about
incipient ones). In any event, I'd expect some insightful (aka 'sneaky')
instruction to see if said student really *has* absorbed the correct idea(s)
and applies 'em when immediately necessary; in hindsight, I realized my
instructor did precisely this. Consequently I tend to think it's somewhat
misguided thinking to hold 'bad ==> *initial* <== ideas' up as the primary
contributor to the U.S. soaring community's dismal safety record of the past
two summers.

That's not to suggest some misguided thinking has NOT contributed, though.

Hence, "What Ray said." Information is good. Prior bogus 'knowledge' (may?
can? might?) make it more difficult to retrain us, but should not make it
impossible to do so.

Bob W.

P.S. I rather enjoyed "The Joy of Soaring" when it was loaned to me way back
in 1972 when I got into the sport, because I inhaled anything I could get my
hands on regarding soaring and flight. I never felt it hurt me in any
way...nor did I ever imagine it was the end all and be all in written soaring
flight instruction.

[T8]

On Sep 6, 2:37*pm, Bill D > wrote:
> On Sep 5, 12:24*pm, Tom > wrote:
>
> > The SSA has recently mailed a letter to the membership regarding the
> > continuing unacceptable accident rate. Studies have shown one of the
> > primary reasons for a high accident rate is a fundemental lack of
> > knowledge. The Joy of Soaring was written as a simple coffee table
> > book. It was never designed to be a flight training manual.
>
> > Tom Knauff
>
> Right on all points.
>
> Bill Daniels

Again: Whose studies? Published Where?

From the title page "The Joy of Soaring -- A Training Manual"

From the Forward

"...As part of the preparation of this manual, its authors visited
numerous gliding schools from coast to coast in order to ensure that
the text represented the best practices of commercial and club schools
as well as to hear the ideas of many prominent soaring pilots....."
etc. etc. written by Harner Selvidge, SSA training manual project
manager.

From the Acknowledgements:

"This training manual had its genesis in a suggestion by Mrs.
Catherine Hiller, SSA governor of Mass. As a member of the FAA
Women's Advisory Committee for Aeronautics she proposed that FAA
publish a glider training manual similar to the one they have for
power pilots, and that it be prepared for FAA by SSA... SSA undertook
the complete job of preparation and publishing on its own.

The real authors of this manual are the operators and instructors of
the following schools and clubs as well as other individual pilots who
gave so generously of their time and experience to make this manual
possible and even authoritative...."

Okay, so I think we can dispense with the notion that Joy of Soaring
was not intended to be flight training manual.

I still want to know what objective study has been done and published
that supports the claim that pilots are crashing due to "fundamental
lack of knowledge". This is a serious subject, it deserves better
than sweeping statements without backing and opinion asserted as fact.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

[vaughn[_3_]]

"T8" > wrote in message
...
>I still want to know what objective study has been done and published
>that supports the claim that pilots are crashing due to "fundamental
>lack of knowledge". This is a serious subject, it deserves better
>than sweeping statements without backing and opinion asserted as fact.

And I would like to see the logical "dotted line" from this particular book to
our (admittedly terrible) accident rate.

....because I have yet to see where one has anything to do with the other.

Vaughn

[Dan Marotta]

"Brad" > wrote in message
...
On Sep 5, 11:24 am, Tom > wrote:
> The SSA has recently mailed a letter to the membership regarding the
> continuing unacceptable accident rate. Studies have shown one of the
> primary reasons for a high accident rate is a fundemental lack of
> knowledge. The Joy of Soaring was written as a simple coffee table
> book. It was never designed to be a flight training manual.
>
> Tom Knauff

30 years ago my instructor at Issaquah Soaring sold me a copy of this
book...............30 years later and a few thousand hours of flight
time and I'm still accident free......maybe it's not the book?

Brad

BINGO!

Dan

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Sep 5, 11:24*am, Tom > wrote:

> The Joy of Soaring was written as a simple coffee table
> book. It was never designed to be a flight training manual.

That merits a big ol' [citation needed] in my mind. The foundation for
this assertion would be...?

Thanks, Bob K.

[Mike[_37_]]

On Sep 7, 10:02*am, Bob Kuykendall > wrote:
> On Sep 5, 11:24*am, Tom > wrote:
>
> > The Joy of Soaring was written as a simple coffee table
> > book. It was never designed to be a flight training manual.
>
> That merits a big ol' [citation needed] in my mind. The foundation for
> this assertion would be...?
>
> Thanks, Bob K.

On the contrary...From the forward of the book;

"The title of this Book, "The Joy of Soaring-A Training Manual" may at
first seem like a contradiction, but this is not the case...."
Signed by Harner Selvidge, SSA Training Manual, Project Manager.

It is spelled out quite clearly that it is a training manual, and was
in fact part of the training syllabus at Schweizer Soaring School,
whose staff including the schools owners, manager and chief test pilot
contributed to its content, as did many other notable soaring pilots
from around the country.

Mike Carris

[Tom[_12_]]

Response from Tom Knauff:

Sorry for the delay. We have been busy pushing back the flood waters.

It was more than 50 years ago when I began learning to fly, more than
40 when I began to learn to fly gliders. The first training manual
(fortunately) was “Stick and Rudder” by Wolfgang Langeweische. My
glider flight instructor was from Germany, and recommended Derek
Piggott's book, “Gliding.”

During flight training, (power and gliders) I experienced differing
opinions how things are done as I switched from instructor to
instructor.

In 1975, Doris and I started Ridge Soaring Gliderport. Shortly after
the school opened, we attempted to conform with the national
standards, and ordered the SSA recommended flight training manual,
“The Joy of Soaring,” and sold it to the students.

It soon became apparent this book contained information different than
the other texts. Eventually, we stopped using the SSA manual because
of these differences, and concerns about complying with flight
training standards established by other countries.

Derek Piggot first came to the USA at my invitation. He spent
considerable time at Ridge Soaring Gliderport, and I returned the
favor with a couple of visits to the United Kingdom. Wolfgang
Langeweishe made several visits to our gliderport at my invitation,
and we had many conversations about flight training matters.

I don't recall the year, (late '70s?) however, the SSA had a
convention in California, and I was fortunate to have a lengthy
conversation with the author of "The Joy of Soaring." When asked about
some of the issues about "The Joy of Soaring," he told me the book was
not originally intended to be a flight training manual. It was
originally only to be a coffee table book.

This explains the limited scope of the book.

The laws of learning include the “law of primacy,” which states “the
first experiences creates a strong, almost unshakable impression.”
This means what is taught the first time must be correct and complete.
Further, correcting what is incorrectly taught the first time can be
very difficult. It is very important for first presentations of
information be correct.

The FAA also is contributing to the horrendous safety problems our
sport is experiencing with the publication of the seriously flawed
“Glider Flying Handbook.” I am sure every experienced glider flight
instructor recognizes the numerous errors in this publication.

The soaring community accknowledges the safety problems the community
has experienced for many years. Despite a highly educated, mature
population, the fatality rate in our sport is worse than ANY other
activity.

It is long past time to fix problems and make necessary changes.

Tom Knauff

[Mike Schumann]

On 9/7/2011 1:22 PM, Tom wrote:
> Response from Tom Knauff:
>
> Sorry for the delay. We have been busy pushing back the flood waters.
>
> It was more than 50 years ago when I began learning to fly, more than
> 40 when I began to learn to fly gliders. The first training manual
> (fortunately) was “Stick and Rudder” by Wolfgang Langeweische. My
> glider flight instructor was from Germany, and recommended Derek
> Piggott's book, “Gliding.”
>
> During flight training, (power and gliders) I experienced differing
> opinions how things are done as I switched from instructor to
> instructor.
>
> In 1975, Doris and I started Ridge Soaring Gliderport. Shortly after
> the school opened, we attempted to conform with the national
> standards, and ordered the SSA recommended flight training manual,
> “The Joy of Soaring,” and sold it to the students.
>
> It soon became apparent this book contained information different than
> the other texts. Eventually, we stopped using the SSA manual because
> of these differences, and concerns about complying with flight
> training standards established by other countries.
>
> Derek Piggot first came to the USA at my invitation. He spent
> considerable time at Ridge Soaring Gliderport, and I returned the
> favor with a couple of visits to the United Kingdom. Wolfgang
> Langeweishe made several visits to our gliderport at my invitation,
> and we had many conversations about flight training matters.
>
> I don't recall the year, (late '70s?) however, the SSA had a
> convention in California, and I was fortunate to have a lengthy
> conversation with the author of "The Joy of Soaring." When asked about
> some of the issues about "The Joy of Soaring," he told me the book was
> not originally intended to be a flight training manual. It was
> originally only to be a coffee table book.
>
> This explains the limited scope of the book.
>
> The laws of learning include the “law of primacy,” which states “the
> first experiences creates a strong, almost unshakable impression.”
> This means what is taught the first time must be correct and complete.
> Further, correcting what is incorrectly taught the first time can be
> very difficult. It is very important for first presentations of
> information be correct.
>
> The FAA also is contributing to the horrendous safety problems our
> sport is experiencing with the publication of the seriously flawed
> “Glider Flying Handbook.” I am sure every experienced glider flight
> instructor recognizes the numerous errors in this publication.
>
> The soaring community accknowledges the safety problems the community
> has experienced for many years. Despite a highly educated, mature
> population, the fatality rate in our sport is worse than ANY other
> activity.
>
> It is long past time to fix problems and make necessary changes.
>
> Tom Knauff
>
>

It would be very enlightening for those of us who haven't looked at the
"Glider Flying Handbook" recently to highlight some of the errors that
are in that publication.

--
Mike Schumann

[Tom[_12_]]

Problems with the FAA Glider Flying Handbook:

When you make corrections using a computer, the number of corrections
is tabulated by the computer program. In the case of the FAA’s Glider
Flying Handbook, the number of corrections totaled over 1,400.

The vast majority of these are English language corrections and have
little to do with flight safety. However, it is important for a
sentence to make sense, be easy to understand and use correct
spelling. A poorly written text will quickly loose interest of any
educated person, which most glider pilots are.

There are many substantive errors, and I did not keep track of all of
them. Glaring errors include photographs of tow ropes with knots being
used, I assume, as weak links. This is simply incorrect as tests have
shown a knot is an unreliable method of establishing a proper breaking
strength.

Chapter 2

Drawing of glider omits names of important parts.

It is stated “the wings produce lift which allows the aircraft to stay
aloft.” Not correct. If true, would not need thermals, ridge or wave
lift. They also fail to mention sustainer engines and the role they
play when describing motor gliders.

The description of “spoilers” and “dive brakes” is incomplete and I
changed words and added a drawing to make it clear.

Chapter 3
Aerodynamics

They continue to use the term “Relative Wind” as opposed to the
correct “Relative Airflow.” This may seem like a minor detail; however
students must understand the difference between “wind” and the airflow
caused by the passage of the aircraft through the air. It is a detail
with importance as the student progresses.

Added a drawing for crosswind takeoff to make the procedure clear.
Added drawing showing glider outside of arc of towplane for clarity.
Added explanation about not using knots in the towrope.

Stalls

Corrected signs of a stall (How important is this???)

Well, you get the idea. There are many, many small and large changes
to wording, descriptions, drawings, and photos to make the content
meet an accepted standard.

Our version is better, costs less and we give a quantity discount.
Further, and most important, it produces safer pilots.

Tom Knauff

[Tony V]

On 9/7/2011 2:56 PM, Mike Schumann wrote:

>
> It would be very enlightening for those of us who haven't looked at the
> "Glider Flying Handbook" recently to highlight some of the errors that
> are in that publication.

See
http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/GBSC/read_lst/handbook_corrections.htm

I particularly like "wench" driver. :-)


Tony "6N"

[Ramy]

On Sep 7, 1:49*pm, Tom > wrote:
> Problems with the FAA Glider Flying Handbook:
>
> When you make corrections using a computer, the number of corrections
> is tabulated by the computer program. In the case of the FAA’s Glider
> Flying Handbook, the number of corrections totaled over 1,400.
>
> The vast majority of these are English language corrections and have
> little to do with flight safety. However, it is important for a
> sentence to make sense, be easy to understand and use correct
> spelling. A poorly written text will quickly loose interest of any
> educated person, which most glider pilots are.
>
> There are many substantive errors, and I did not keep track of all of
> them. Glaring errors include photographs of tow ropes with knots being
> used, I assume, *as weak links. This is simply incorrect as tests have
> shown a knot is an unreliable method of establishing a proper breaking
> strength.
>
> Chapter 2
>
> Drawing of glider omits names of important parts.
>
> It is stated “the wings produce lift which allows the aircraft to stay
> aloft.” * Not correct. If true, would not need thermals, ridge or wave
> lift. They also fail to mention sustainer engines and the role they
> play when describing *motor gliders.
>
> The description of “spoilers” and “dive brakes” is incomplete and I
> changed words and added a drawing to make it clear.
>
> Chapter 3
> Aerodynamics
>
> They continue to use the term “Relative Wind” as opposed to the
> correct “Relative Airflow.” This may seem like a minor detail; however
> students must understand the difference between “wind” and the airflow
> caused by the passage of the aircraft through the air. *It is a detail
> with importance as the student progresses.
>
> Added a drawing for crosswind takeoff to make the procedure clear.
> Added drawing showing glider outside of arc of towplane for clarity.
> Added explanation about not using knots in the towrope.
>
> Stalls
>
> Corrected signs of a stall (How important is this???)
>
> Well, you get the idea. There are many, many small and large changes
> to wording, descriptions, drawings, and photos to make the content
> meet an accepted standard.
>
> Our version is better, costs less and we give a quantity discount.
> Further, and most important, it produces safer pilots.
>
> Tom Knauff

With all due respect Tom, you have yet pointed out a single error in
Glider Flying Handbook or Joy of Soaring which could be even remotely
connected to a single accident.
Implying that our dismay accident rate has anything to do with those
books is simply wrong.
Vast majority of accidents are due to human error, not fundamental
lack of knowledge.
Our accident rate is high since it is a high risk activity. To reduce
the accident rate you will need to reduce the risks (no contest
flying, no XC, no sharing of thermals, no flying in any type of
challenging weather, no flying in the mountains, no high speed low
pass, no aerobatics, etc, you get the idea) but this will also reduce
the fun to a point I rather play golf instead.
I think one of the problems we have is that most people simply don't
realize how risky this sport is, maybe because they were told the
first day they drove to the airport that the driving to the airport
was their biggest risk. Some still believes it!

Ramy

Ramy

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Sep 7, 5:49*pm, Ramy > wrote:

> I think one of the problems we have is that most people simply don't
> realize how risky this sport is, maybe because they were told the
> first day they drove to the airport that the driving to the airport
> was their biggest risk. Some still believes it!

I think that Ramy has made a very important point. We too often lie to
ourselves and to others about the risks we are taking, in soaring and
in other activities. That does a disservice to everyone involved.

In my experience, people will generally moderate the seriousness of
their approach to an activity based on their perception of the various
risks involved. However, their perceptions do not always encompass the
less-obvious gotchas and pitfalls. When people are not clear about
what risks they're really accepting, they might not learn for sure
until the lesson is irrevocable.

Please note that I am not saying that we always neglect or downplay
the risks we assume in soaring. Nor am I saying that soaring is an
extremely risky endeavor. But I do think that it is a central irony of
our sport that saying that it is generally safe makes it more
dangerous than it would otherwise be.

That's one of the reasons I enjoy reading the instructions and
disclaimers that go with rock climbing gear. The instructions are
always clearly and plainly written, and usually demonstrated with
clear and concise graphics that show not only the proper usage, but
the potentially fatal outcomes of misuse.

The disclaimers are also a hoot. They generally begin with something
stark like "You may die today. Rock climbing is a dangerous
activity..." and go on to explain that there are both subjective risks
and objective risks, and that you could get killed at it even if you
do everything as right as possible. While sometimes a bit disturbing,
their clarity is refreshing.

Thanks, Bob K.

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Sep 7, 1:49*pm, Tom > wrote:

> A poorly written text will quickly loose interest of any
> educated person, which most glider pilots are.

I wholeheartedly agree with the idea, at least.

Thanks, Bob K.

[Dan Nunes]

Firstly, I’ve flow with 29 flight instructors in the past decade in
both glider and powered airplanes while working on a variety of
training and goals. Several were very good in one way or another, be
it a spotless technique, a devotion to safety, making the student at
ease in the cockpit, or conveying the physics of flight in an
accessible manner. A few others may have been good pilots, but
horrible instructors. I have also read a number of the books mentioned
in this discussion thread and have learned much from them.

But I have to say that Russell Holtz not only combines all of the
qualities mentioned above, but also instructs in a very systematic
fashion that prepares the student-pilot to succeed in every step of
the flight training process. I am working with him towards my CFIG
rating and am impressed with the level of thought and preparation he
has put into his syllabus. His books, Glider Pilot’s Handbook of
Aeronautical Knowledge and Flight Training Manual for Gliders, reflect
these qualities, are very comprehensive in their content, and are
pedagogically skillful. Though I believe in the value of reading
different texts, Russell’s books offer the best soaring course to
primary and transition pilots.

Dan

[Gilbert Smith[_2_]]

Tom > wrote:

>Response from Tom Knauff:
>
>Sorry for the delay. We have been busy pushing back the flood waters.
>
>It was more than 50 years ago when I began learning to fly, more than
>40 when I began to learn to fly gliders. The first training manual
>(fortunately) was “Stick and Rudder” by Wolfgang Langeweische. My
>glider flight instructor was from Germany, and recommended Derek
>Piggott's book, “Gliding.”
>
>During flight training, (power and gliders) I experienced differing
>opinions how things are done as I switched from instructor to
>instructor.
>
>In 1975, Doris and I started Ridge Soaring Gliderport. Shortly after
>the school opened, we attempted to conform with the national
>standards, and ordered the SSA recommended flight training manual,
>“The Joy of Soaring,” and sold it to the students.
>
>It soon became apparent this book contained information different than
>the other texts. Eventually, we stopped using the SSA manual because
>of these differences, and concerns about complying with flight
>training standards established by other countries.
>
>Derek Piggot first came to the USA at my invitation. He spent
>considerable time at Ridge Soaring Gliderport, and I returned the
>favor with a couple of visits to the United Kingdom. Wolfgang
>Langeweishe made several visits to our gliderport at my invitation,
>and we had many conversations about flight training matters.
>
>I don't recall the year, (late '70s?) however, the SSA had a
>convention in California, and I was fortunate to have a lengthy
>conversation with the author of "The Joy of Soaring." When asked about
>some of the issues about "The Joy of Soaring," he told me the book was
>not originally intended to be a flight training manual. It was
>originally only to be a coffee table book.
>
>This explains the limited scope of the book.
>
>The laws of learning include the “law of primacy,” which states “the
>first experiences creates a strong, almost unshakable impression.”
>This means what is taught the first time must be correct and complete.
>Further, correcting what is incorrectly taught the first time can be
>very difficult. It is very important for first presentations of
>information be correct.
>
>The FAA also is contributing to the horrendous safety problems our
>sport is experiencing with the publication of the seriously flawed
>“Glider Flying Handbook.” I am sure every experienced glider flight
>instructor recognizes the numerous errors in this publication.
>
>The soaring community accknowledges the safety problems the community
>has experienced for many years. Despite a highly educated, mature
>population, the fatality rate in our sport is worse than ANY other
>activity.
>
>It is long past time to fix problems and make necessary changes.
>
>Tom Knauff
>

No doubt you will all have read this one from 2005:
http://www.gliding.co.uk/accidents/reports/nimbus4dtreport.pdf
Section 1.1.1 "Surviving Pilot's Statement" seems to say that he tried
to recover from a spin by pulling back hard on the stick and lowering
the flaps. Is this a translation error, or did a 4DM owner really
think this was the correct procedure ?

Gilbert