Position Recorders allowed the US for Silver badges?

[Bastoune]

I spent a bit of time on the SSA website trying to find out if
"Position Recorders" (not an IGC Approved Flight Recorder) are allowed
for Silver badges. The info from 2010 seems to indicate that Position
Recorders are not allowed for Silver badges, unless someone has in
addition a barograph. Did I read this correctly? Is this likely to
change in the future or do I need to order an IGC approved FR from
Santa?

Second question - Would and Out & Return of 60km qualify for a Silver
badge? Can't seem to find a clarification on the SSA website (beside
the definition of Silver = 50+km).

Thanks,

B

[Tony[_5_]]

On Sep 10, 10:17*pm, Bastoune > wrote:
> I spent a bit of time on the SSA website trying to find out if
> "Position Recorders" (not an IGC Approved Flight Recorder) are allowed
> for Silver badges. The info from 2010 seems to indicate that Position
> Recorders are not allowed for Silver badges, unless someone has in
> addition a barograph. Did I read this correctly? Is this likely to
> change in the future or do I need to order an IGC approved FR from
> Santa?
>
> Second question - Would and Out & Return of 60km qualify for a Silver
> badge? Can't seem to find a clarification on the SSA website (beside
> the definition of Silver = 50+km).
>
> Thanks,
>
> B

I believe the information which you seek is on the FAI gliding
website. The FlywithCE recorder is approved in the US as a position
recorder.

I *believe* that for the Silver you have to have one leg of at least
50 km so a 60 km out and return would not qualify. spend some time
with the sporting code and the SSA badge and record guide and your
OO. The paperwork is one of the biggest obstacles to the badge but is
not difficult if you understand what is needed before you attempt the
flight. have fun!

[Darryl Ramm]

Bastoune > wrote:
>
> I spent a bit of time on the SSA website trying to find out if
> "Position Recorders" (not an IGC Approved Flight Recorder) are allowed
> for Silver badges. The info from 2010 seems to indicate that Position
> Recorders are not allowed for Silver badges, unless someone has in
> addition a barograph. Did I read this correctly? Is this likely to
> change in the future or do I need to order an IGC approved FR from
> Santa?
>
> Second question - Would and Out & Return of 60km qualify for a Silver
> badge? Can't seem to find a clarification on the SSA website (beside
> the definition of Silver = 50+km).

No. The silver distance flight is a 50km leg. A simple 60 km O&R had 30
km legs. But it is not just any 50km leg, and many flight claims fail
because of pilots not paying attention to the 1% altitude rule or not
understanding flight declaration requirements, not properly making
declarations (always make a paper declaration that overrides any
electronic one), or not properly entering OZs etc. on more complex
silver distance flights. The silver badge also has duration and altitude
achievement requirements that you can do on the same or separate
flights.

You are going about this the wrong way by reading the SSA website. You
really have to get the FAI sporting code section 3 and the seperate
annex C OO and pilots guide and read those. Start here
http://www.fai.org/gliding/sc3

Notice the new October 2011 SC3 rules. You also technically are supposed
to read the approval documents for the particular flight recorder (e.g.
the recorder may need sealing to the aircraft etc.).

The SSA website has useful information, links and forms etc. But you
have to read the rules. And especially some well intentioned efforts to
simplify or clarify the rules in SSA documents sometimes actually
complicates this more or results in invalid flights.

The FAI rules will also clarify flight recorder etc. requirements. It is
usually easier to fly with an IGC recorder but it is for example it is
entirely possible to do a straight out silver distance with no recorder
of any type (the tow pilot attests to the release altitude and the
finish altitude is the landing elevation).

There is a lot of stuff to trip up a newcomer but after hitting your
head against this for a while it will start to make sense, either that
or it's the concussion settling in. In SC3 read the definitions section
very carefully and refer to those formal definitions as you read the
main text.

Find a competent OO, somebody who actually understands the FAI rules in
detail and go over your plans and procedures with them well before the
flight.

Darryl

[T[_2_]]

On Sep 10, 8:17*pm, Bastoune > wrote:
> I spent a bit of time on the SSA website trying to find out if
> "Position Recorders" (not an IGC Approved Flight Recorder) are allowed
> for Silver badges. The info from 2010 seems to indicate that Position
> Recorders are not allowed for Silver badges, unless someone has in
> addition a barograph. Did I read this correctly? Is this likely to
> change in the future or do I need to order an IGC approved FR from
> Santa?
>
> Second question - Would and Out & Return of 60km qualify for a Silver
> badge? Can't seem to find a clarification on the SSA website (beside
> the definition of Silver = 50+km).
>
> Thanks,
>
> B

The 60km (30 out 30 back) will not qualify as others have stated.

Certain position only recorders may be used for the silver badge, but
you must also have a recording barograph.

Find an experienced mentor in the flying group or club. Some clubs are
now maintaining an approved data logger for club pilots to borrow.
Some club member may have a portable logger you can use.

The SSA web site has a list of approved position only loggers, they
also have a Silver Badge two page guide.

T

[Bruce Hoult]

On Sep 11, 4:48*pm, T > wrote:
> Certain position only recorders may be used for the silver badge, but
> you must also have a recording barograph.

I'm not sure that's true.

I suspect the tug pilot certifying that you released less than 500m
above the landing point may be good enough (or even higher if your
actual flight is more than 50 km?)

[Papa3]

Leaving aside the issue of creating a valid task: There is as of now only one GPS Position Recorder approved by the SSA for Badge attempts, and that is FlyWithCE. I know that we posted this information last year, but I too can't find it on the SSA Website, sorry. We'll get that fixed. As others have mentioned, you still need to carry a "traditional" Barograph recording pressure-based readings. As it stands, there have been no claims using this method in the US to date and very few in several other active gliding countries, largely due to the complexities introduced in having to manage two separate devices.

Please email me or reach out to Rollin Hasness, "The Badge Dude" ) for official clarifications on Badge and Record issues.

Erik Mann (P3)
Chair, SSA Badge and Record Committee

[Darryl Ramm]

Darryl Ramm > wrote:
[snip]
> The FAI rules will also clarify flight recorder etc. requirements. It
> is
> usually easier to fly with an IGC recorder but it is for example it is
> entirely possible to do a straight out silver distance with no
> recorder
> of any type (the tow pilot attests to the release altitude and the
> finish altitude is the landing elevation).

Geez which twit wrote this? What I should have said is it's possible to
do the silver distance without a flight or position recorder - but that
still needs a barograph for proving flight continuity. The duration
flight can be done with just OO observation. Maybe to my point that
trying to simplify/explain these rule scan be dangerous and you really
need to study the actual rules.

Darryl

[Marc]

On Sep 11, 6:58*am, Papa3 > wrote:
> Leaving aside the issue of creating a valid task: * There is as of now only one GPS Position
> Recorder approved by the SSA for Badge attempts, and that is FlyWithCE. * I know that we
> posted this information last year, but I too can't find it on the SSA Website, sorry. * We'll get
> that fixed. * As others have mentioned, you still need to carry a "traditional" Barograph
> recording pressure-based readings. * As it stands, there have been no claims using this
> method in the US to date and very few in several other active gliding countries, largely due
> to the complexities introduced in having to manage two separate devices. *

Just a minor point of clarification, IGC rules permit approval of
"position recorders" which have integral pressure altitude recording
capability, and therefore can be used without a separate barograph.
For example, some FLARM devices are not IGC approved flight recorders,
and have been approved by various countries as combined position
recorders and barographs...

Marc

[Bastoune]

All,

Thank you very much to all for your inputs. I got quite a few answers
and additional leads to further study the subject (FAI website, SSA
badge team, etc). I appreaciate the heads-up about studying the rules
well ahead. It seems that half of the acheivement of the badge is
understanding the rule book!

Sincerely,

B

[Tony[_5_]]

On Sep 11, 8:58*am, Papa3 > wrote:
> Leaving aside the issue of creating a valid task: * There is as of now only one GPS Position Recorder approved by the SSA for Badge attempts, and that is FlyWithCE. * I know that we posted this information last year, but I too can't find it on the SSA Website, sorry. * We'll get that fixed. * As others have mentioned, you still need to carry a "traditional" Barograph recording pressure-based readings. * As it stands, there have been no claims using this method in the US to date and very few in several other active gliding countries, largely due to the complexities introduced in having to manage two separate devices. *
>
> Please email me or reach out to Rollin Hasness, "The Badge Dude" ) for official clarifications on Badge and Record issues. *
>
> Erik Mann (P3)
> Chair, SSA Badge and Record Committee

Erik,

I did submit a state record claim last fall using a barograph/
FlywithCE. most of our club badge work this season has been in pursuit
of gold badges and diamond goal.

[Chris Nicholas[_2_]]

A question I would like to see settled, important for those who fly
beneath controlled airspace (CAS), is how to ensure that the CAS has
not been entered. (In the UK at least, this is treated as a reason to
not grant claims.)

If the base of CAS is defined by flight level, GPS altitude does not
establish whether or not CAS was violated unless some elaborate
computations are done, AIUI. Baro is needed.

If CAS is defined by height or altitude, GPS may suffice.

As our moving map software is using height/altitude data for glide
angle to goal etc., can it mislead people to think that they are clear
of CAS when on fact just up inside it?

If the logger is the source of the GPS engine for the moving map, this
seems to me to be an issue.

I was recently in a comp where one pilot on successive days was
penalised for just slightly going up into CAS. He did not mean to. I
suspect that the FL/Altitude difference may have played a part.

Chris N.

[Chris Nicholas[_2_]]

Tim, thanks. By your silence on the subject, I presume you agree with
my first point: that moving map software using (I think) only GPS
altitude data is apt to mislead pilots into thinking they are below
(or above, depending on QNH on the day) CAS which is defined by flight
levels.

I was short cutting a bit when I said “may”, in “If CAS is defined by
height or altitude, GPS may suffice”. What I was hinting was that at
low levels (e.g. Stansted UK CTA at 1500’), and when QNH and ascents
are close to standard atmosphere, you would be unlikely to be a few
hundred feet wrong.

In principle, yes – FAI requires baro. So does the law in the UK. So
our moving map warning, re height, are undependable.


Chris N.

[Darryl Ramm]

Chris Nicholas > wrote:
> Tim, thanks. By your silence on the subject, I presume you agree with
> my first point: that moving map software using (I think) only GPS
> altitude data is apt to mislead pilots into thinking they are below
> (or above, depending on QNH on the day) CAS which is defined by flight
> levels.
>
> I was short cutting a bit when I said “may�, in “If CAS is defined by
> height or altitude, GPS may suffice�. What I was hinting was that at
> low levels (e.g. Stansted UK CTA at 1500’), and when QNH and ascents
> are close to standard atmosphere, you would be unlikely to be a few
> hundred feet wrong.
>
> In principle, yes – FAI requires baro. So does the law in the UK. So
> our moving map warning, re height, are undependable.
>
>
> Chris N.

I am not sure why you seem to be referring to this issue as in the
moving map software or why you seem to assume all "loggers" only pass
GPS based altitudes.

All popular PDA/PNA software that I am aware of is capable of (and
flight computers that support airspace all) will work with pressure
altitude. You want this to all work as it should with "moving map
software" then buy a flight computer/flight recorder etc. that outputs
pressure altitude data over NMEA. Pilots who do not have that better get
the need to defer to their altimeter. As for use for determining
airspace violations post-flight I think this is such a pain in the neck
that pressure recording should always be required (so we likely agree on
that).

I really think the whole position recorder idea from the IGC was
unnecessary and results in yet more confusion. And that is on top of the
already multiple levels of approvals for IGC flight recorders, often
separate ENL options, confusing IGC/FAI rules, different OLC rules,
crappy support for popular legacy products (e.g. Cambridge), ... all
that just ads up to a much worse end-user experience than it should be.

Darryl

[Chris Nicholas[_2_]]

Darryl, thanks. I did not know that “All popular PDA/PNA software that
I am aware of is capable of (and flight computers that support
airspace all) will work with pressure altitude.”

So I was seeking clarification.

I use Volkslogger and Winpilot, set up and connected by an agent/
vendor. I really don’t know the technicalities.

There was some correspondence recently on the (mainly UK)
gliderpilot.net which caused me to raise the question.

Regards – Chris.

[Darryl Ramm]

Chris

Winpilot (Advanced and Pro) will use pressure altitude for airspace
violation warnings etc. The pressure altitude is in the Volkslogger's
PGCS NMEA sentence--assuming that sentence is turned in the Volkslogger
setup. That setup is described well in both the Winpilot and Volkslogger
manuals.

That pressure altitude is of course cockpit ambient pressure and may
disagree with a proper static source. But that is what you have an
altimeter for. And it's the cockpit static that gets recorded in the IGC
file. Pilots should compare these altitudes and effects of opening
cockpit vents etc in flight.

Darryl

Chris Nicholas > wrote:
>
>
> Darryl, thanks. I did not know that “All popular PDA/PNA software that
> I am aware of is capable of (and flight computers that support
> airspace all) will work with pressure altitude.�
>
> So I was seeking clarification.
>
> I use Volkslogger and Winpilot, set up and connected by an agent/
> vendor. I really don’t know the technicalities.
>
> There was some correspondence recently on the (mainly UK)
> gliderpilot.net which caused me to raise the question.
>
> Regards – Chris.
>

[Chris Nicholas[_2_]]

Thanks again. Got it now!

Chris N.