Bonded aluminum aircraft structures

[asennad]

I remember seeing an article several years ago on a car company
developing a racecar using a bonded aluminum structure and rivet
reinforcing. It struck me at the time that this would make an improved
method of aircraft construction and I was wondering if this had been
used before on homebuilt aircraft and what might be the pitfalls of
such a system.

My thinking is that the aircraft's aluminum skins could be attached
over a wooden buck and adhesive used to attach the skins. Once the
adhesive has setup, the bulkheads could be installed, holes drilled
and rivets set. The rivets would still from the primary means of
fastening the panels and the adhesive could serve as extra
reinforcement.

I suggest this as I suspect it would make for a quicker way of
construction particularly as the buck could be reused for subsequent
aircraft.

[Ron Natalie]

"asennad" > wrote in message om...

> I suggest this as I suspect it would make for a quicker way of
> construction particularly as the buck could be reused for subsequent
> aircraft.

There are some use of aluminum adhesives in light aircraft. The Grumman
Tiger for example uses it on some of the parts.

[Steve Robertson]

The Grumman single engine line and the Beechcraft Musketeer line both used
bonded aluminum wing skins. It's been done successfully.

Best regards,

Steve Robertson
N4732J 1967 Beechcraft A23-24 Musketeer

asennad wrote:

> I remember seeing an article several years ago on a car company
> developing a racecar using a bonded aluminum structure and rivet
> reinforcing. It struck me at the time that this would make an improved
> method of aircraft construction and I was wondering if this had been
> used before on homebuilt aircraft and what might be the pitfalls of
> such a system.
>
> My thinking is that the aircraft's aluminum skins could be attached
> over a wooden buck and adhesive used to attach the skins. Once the
> adhesive has setup, the bulkheads could be installed, holes drilled
> and rivets set. The rivets would still from the primary means of
> fastening the panels and the adhesive could serve as extra
> reinforcement.
>
> I suggest this as I suspect it would make for a quicker way of
> construction particularly as the buck could be reused for subsequent
> aircraft.

[Drew Dalgleish]

On 23 Dec 2003 10:55:11 -0800, (asennad) wrote:

>I remember seeing an article several years ago on a car company
>developing a racecar using a bonded aluminum structure and rivet
>reinforcing. It struck me at the time that this would make an improved
>method of aircraft construction and I was wondering if this had been
>used before on homebuilt aircraft and what might be the pitfalls of
>such a system.
>
>My thinking is that the aircraft's aluminum skins could be attached
>over a wooden buck and adhesive used to attach the skins. Once the
>adhesive has setup, the bulkheads could be installed, holes drilled
>and rivets set. The rivets would still from the primary means of
>fastening the panels and the adhesive could serve as extra
>reinforcement.
>
>I suggest this as I suspect it would make for a quicker way of
>construction particularly as the buck could be reused for subsequent
>aircraft.

This is more or less, minus the bucks how I built the floats for my
plane.
Drew Dalgleish

[Morgans]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "asennad" > wrote in message
om...
>
> > I suggest this as I suspect it would make for a quicker way of
> > construction particularly as the buck could be reused for subsequent
> > aircraft.
>
> There are some use of aluminum adhesives in light aircraft. The Grumman
> Tiger for example uses it on some of the parts.
>

There is one thing that everyone is not mentioning, while talking of bonding
aluminum. The process (that I know no more about than what has been
mentioned here, in the past) is very tricky, from a prep standpoint, and
quality control. It has been said that homebuilders lack the facilities and
experience to reliably complete the process.
--
Jim in NC

[Wayne Paul]

This has been done with various degrees of success in sailplanes since the
late 1960s. Here are a few links that you might consider looking at:

http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/Schreder/Building_the_HP-18.html
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/Construction/HBldr_Hall.html#wings
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/Construction/Home_Builders_Hall_10-80.html

Schreder used bonded wings on the following models:

HP-16 - http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/HP-16/N8DC/N8DC_First_Flight.htm

RS-15 - http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/RS-15/C-GPUB.html

HP-18 - http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/HP-18/N15DP/N15DP.htm

http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/Stories/Contests/2003_Seniors/2003_Seniors.htm

I hope you find these links helpful in your quest for the optimum
construction technique.

Wayne
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder

P.S. I use to own an HP-16T
(http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/HP-16/N16VP.html) and didn't have any
problems with the bonded wings.



"asennad" > wrote in message
om...
> I remember seeing an article several years ago on a car company
> developing a racecar using a bonded aluminum structure and rivet
> reinforcing. It struck me at the time that this would make an improved
> method of aircraft construction and I was wondering if this had been
> used before on homebuilt aircraft and what might be the pitfalls of
> such a system.
>
> My thinking is that the aircraft's aluminum skins could be attached
> over a wooden buck and adhesive used to attach the skins. Once the
> adhesive has setup, the bulkheads could be installed, holes drilled
> and rivets set. The rivets would still from the primary means of
> fastening the panels and the adhesive could serve as extra
> reinforcement.
>
> I suggest this as I suspect it would make for a quicker way of
> construction particularly as the buck could be reused for subsequent
> aircraft.

[Corky Scott]

On 23 Dec 2003 10:55:11 -0800, (asennad) wrote:

>I remember seeing an article several years ago on a car company
>developing a racecar using a bonded aluminum structure and rivet
>reinforcing. It struck me at the time that this would make an improved
>method of aircraft construction and I was wondering if this had been
>used before on homebuilt aircraft and what might be the pitfalls of
>such a system.
>
>My thinking is that the aircraft's aluminum skins could be attached
>over a wooden buck and adhesive used to attach the skins. Once the
>adhesive has setup, the bulkheads could be installed, holes drilled
>and rivets set. The rivets would still from the primary means of
>fastening the panels and the adhesive could serve as extra
>reinforcement.
>
>I suggest this as I suspect it would make for a quicker way of
>construction particularly as the buck could be reused for subsequent
>aircraft.

Do you get Sport Aviation? The most recent issue highlited a Harmon
Rocket that was skinned using a bonding agent and rivets. The guy
apparently is a true perfectionist though, he literally built an
"exoskeleton" that exactly mimicked the external skin. He used the
exoskeleton to hold the skin against the ribs to press the skin to the
ribs and the bonding agent. He riveted at the same time.

I think the guy liked building things.

Corky Scott

[Scott Correa]

"asennad" > wrote in message
om...
>
> My thinking is that the aircraft's aluminum skins could be attached
> over a wooden buck and adhesive used to attach the skins. Once the
> adhesive has setup, the bulkheads could be installed, holes drilled
> and rivets set. The rivets would still from the primary means of
> fastening the panels and the adhesive could serve as extra
> reinforcement.

You don't understand the process. Follow me
for a minute. If the rivets are stronger than the
adhesive, the adhesive only adds weight to the
structure. If the adhesive is stronger
(it is by the way) then the rivets serve no purpose
...... So why are they there????? Because the
rivets hold the structure in place while the adhesive
cures. Holes and fasteners are the cheapest
tooling you can use when gluing structure together.
Older alum race car tubs got glued together and
used pop rivets to hold it together while it cured.
The bond lines can only accept shear loads, not peel
loads so attachment of secondary structures to
the tub was usually mechanical fasteners. We
glued tubs together not because it was strongest,
but because it was the fastest way to get it done
and meet our design goals. Bonded aircraft are a
similar story. Its economics vs performance.
Somewhere there is a bean counter that has a curve that
shows the most economical way to get it done.

Scott

[asennad]

I want to thank everybody who responded to my post. Great info for me
to think about. My main goal is to think about building a metal
aircraft in a shorter amount of time without going to full CNC.

[Ron Natalie]

"asennad" > wrote in message om...
> I want to thank everybody who responded to my post. Great info for me
> to think about. My main goal is to think about building a metal
> aircraft in a shorter amount of time without going to full CNC.

What makes you think it's going to be shorter? Something's got to hold
the thing in place while the glue dries. Your one off jigs might take you longer
than if you'd drilled some holes and cleco'd riveted things together. Perhaps
you can get by with glue and a smaller number of rivets.