XCSoar Questions

[Paul Remde]

Hi XCSoar users,

I am new to XCSoar. I am currently reading the manual for version 6.2 and
playing with XCSoar on my PC and iPAQ hx4700.

My goal is to become a technical resource for XCSoar users. But since I'm
new, it will take me some time to get up to speed.

I'll be perfectly honest, in the past, I have not spent much time with
XCSoar because I prefer to sell products like SeeYou Mobile and Glide
Navigator II - because I'm trying to make a living selling soaring products
and supporting glider pilots with their technical products. Since I can't
sell XCSoar, it has been tough to make time to play with it. However, many
XCSoar users have told me how great it is, and I want to be able to support
XCSoar users with phone/web conferencing support (I do a lot of that with
SeeYou, SeeYou Mobile, Oudie, Glide Navigator II and LXe users) and also
provide cables, cradles and other accessories for XCSoar users. Also, I try
to stay up to date on the latest technologies (I'm a techno-nerd) and XCSoar
is definitely on the leading edge in regard to supported hardware platforms.
Becoming knowledgeable on XCSoar (over time) will help me stay up with the
latest technologies.

The reason I'm sending this note is to try to get a feel for how customers
are using XCSoar. I really have no idea what hardware users are running it
on, or how they are connecting their PDAs and PNAs to their soaring flight
instruments.

I hope no one minds my asking these questions. I sincerely want to be able
to help XCSoar users and become an expert.

Questions:
- What hardware platform (PDA/PNA/phone) are you running XCSoar on?
- What GPS are you using with XCSoar? Is it built-in to your PDA/PNA or
connected to your PDA using a cable connection, or Bluetooth, or.?
- Is your PDA/PNA connected to a soaring flight computer? If so, is it a
cable connection or Bluetooth, or .?
- If you are using a Bluetooth connection - is it reliable and easy to use?
- If you are using cables, where did you get them? I'd love to be able to
supply Goddard built cables for XCSoar users. Any PDA/PNA connector wiring
diagrams would be greatly appreciated.

I'm sorry for these basic questions. I look forward to your feedback.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
Serving the soaring community
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com
1-952-445-9033

[Wayne Paul]

Paul,

XCSoar is a good program. It is definitely worth what it cost. So is
LK8000. You might want to familiarize yourself with both packages, their
similarities and differences. I have run both and am currently running
LK8000 on an iPAQ hx4700.

Wayne
http://tinyurl.com/N990-6F


"Paul Remde" wrote in message ...

Hi XCSoar users,

I am new to XCSoar. I am currently reading the manual for version 6.2 and
playing with XCSoar on my PC and iPAQ hx4700.

My goal is to become a technical resource for XCSoar users. But since I'm
new, it will take me some time to get up to speed.

I'll be perfectly honest, in the past, I have not spent much time with
XCSoar because I prefer to sell products like SeeYou Mobile and Glide
Navigator II - because I'm trying to make a living selling soaring products
and supporting glider pilots with their technical products. Since I can't
sell XCSoar, it has been tough to make time to play with it. However, many
XCSoar users have told me how great it is, and I want to be able to support
XCSoar users with phone/web conferencing support (I do a lot of that with
SeeYou, SeeYou Mobile, Oudie, Glide Navigator II and LXe users) and also
provide cables, cradles and other accessories for XCSoar users. Also, I try
to stay up to date on the latest technologies (I'm a techno-nerd) and XCSoar
is definitely on the leading edge in regard to supported hardware platforms.
Becoming knowledgeable on XCSoar (over time) will help me stay up with the
latest technologies.

The reason I'm sending this note is to try to get a feel for how customers
are using XCSoar. I really have no idea what hardware users are running it
on, or how they are connecting their PDAs and PNAs to their soaring flight
instruments.

I hope no one minds my asking these questions. I sincerely want to be able
to help XCSoar users and become an expert.

Questions:
- What hardware platform (PDA/PNA/phone) are you running XCSoar on?
- What GPS are you using with XCSoar? Is it built-in to your PDA/PNA or
connected to your PDA using a cable connection, or Bluetooth, or.?
- Is your PDA/PNA connected to a soaring flight computer? If so, is it a
cable connection or Bluetooth, or .?
- If you are using a Bluetooth connection - is it reliable and easy to use?
- If you are using cables, where did you get them? I'd love to be able to
supply Goddard built cables for XCSoar users. Any PDA/PNA connector wiring
diagrams would be greatly appreciated.

I'm sorry for these basic questions. I look forward to your feedback.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
Serving the soaring community
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com
1-952-445-9033

[Brian[_1_]]

I have ran both LK8000 and XCSoar. I have recently been using LK8000.

I use an Ipaq 3950 connected to an Garmin GPS12XL (serial cable
connection). When my Flarm Arrives I will drive it off of the Flarm.
I typically make my own mounts and cables, but am thinking about
purchasing a mount for the Ipaq.

Brian
HP16T

[Paul Remde]

Hi Brian,

I have some very nice Nimbus cradles for the iPAQ h3950 which you can see
here:
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/nimbus.htm

I also have gooseneck and RAM mounting arms and cables for connecting the
Garmin to the PDA and powering the PDA and GPS.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

"Brian" > wrote in message
...
>I have ran both LK8000 and XCSoar. I have recently been using LK8000.
>
> I use an Ipaq 3950 connected to an Garmin GPS12XL (serial cable
> connection). When my Flarm Arrives I will drive it off of the Flarm.
> I typically make my own mounts and cables, but am thinking about
> purchasing a mount for the Ipaq.
>
> Brian
> HP16T

[S. Murry]

Paul,

I have been using XC Soar for about the last year. Currently, I am
running it on my mobile phone, an HTC EVO from Sprint. I would not
necessarily recommend this as a platform because the AMOLED screen (while
beautiful indoors) washes out badly in the sunlight. However, the
hardware was free (since I already had the phone).

I have built an interface board based on the IOIO controller in order to
connect XC Soar to the 302 in my DG-200. So far this has not been tested,
but it's on my "to-do" list for my next trip to the gliderport. Support
for the IOIO was only included in XCSoar 6.2 (which was released a couple
of weeks ago), so this is a fairly new feature that is not supremely well
documented, and requires some building of hardware at the present time.
The documentation support is being remedied by the XC Soar team, I believe.

Regarding your desire for a cable to connect your PDA (Phone) running XC
Soar to a glide computer, I am not aware of anything commercial at the
present time. I am an electrical engineer by training and I manage an
electronics manufacturing firm, so if nobody else is already working on
this, and depending on my experience with the prototype interface board
I've built based on IOIO, I might consider producing a version
commercially. This is just an idea at this point and the answer probably
depends on whether someone else is already doing this, and what the
potential demand might be. Building one from the IOIO is not difficult,
but does take some soldering and assembly skills. Nothing most glider
pilots can't handle, but maybe more hassle than some would wish to put up
with. In nothing else, perhaps a kit of the relevant parts, along with a
clear set of assembly instructions would be an interim first step.

I am not a big fan of bluetooth in this application due to concerns about
power draw and interference. Probably these are overblown concerns on my
part, but for "mission critical" connections, I really prefer a cable.

Rob Dunning has already done a lot of development on this (see
http://xcsoar-robd.wikispaces.com/XCSoar+Android+-+to+-+RS232+%28IOIO%29
). Anyone interested can get an idea of the technical skills required
from reading his page.

I have not used a lot of other PNA devices, so my experience is a bit
limited, but here are my reasons for selecting XC SOAR:

Pros:
1) I like the Android OS. I have had it on my phone for a couple of
years and it has proven to be stable and has a growing base of apps and
hardware platforms.
2) I like the ability to select my preferred hardware platform.
Especially since more and more Anndroid platforms are coming onto the
market. It's nice to be able to select a screen size, display type, etc.
that fits your needs.
3) Android platforms are based on modern hardware (as opposed to old
Ipaqs that are getting a bit long in the tooth)
4) XC Soar itself is supported by an amazing group of developers. I am
completely impressed by the short development cycle and feature set that
exists in this program.
5) Of course, the price is right (free!)

Cons:
1) Documentation is sparse and infrequently updated with new features as
they emerge. I imagine this will eventually "catch up" with the
developers, but currently a fair amount of "trial and error" is required
to figure out how to use the system.
2) XC Soar is highly configurable. This is actually a "pro" but can be
a bit of a "con" when combined with the somewhat lacking documentation.
It's nice to have a list of scores of useful information parameters that
can be displayed, but if you don't understand exactly what each piece of
information means, errors can be made in interpretation and use of this
information in flight.
3) The whole XC Soar "experience" is a bit "DIY" at the moment. This is
a confluence of the lack of documentation, lack of commercial support
(since it's free), and the variety of hardware platforms involved. I
think it is great that you are interested in trying to support this system
commercially (perhaps by offering cables, recommended hardware platforms,
cradles?, etc.). Offering a "plug and play" solution based on XC Soar
would probably help accelerate the growth of the user base.

If you have any questions, feel free to e-mail me directly (I'm in your
order database).

--Stefan Murry








On Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:32:20 -0500, Paul Remde > wrote:

> Hi XCSoar users,
>
> I am new to XCSoar. I am currently reading the manual for version 6.2
> and playing with XCSoar on my PC and iPAQ hx4700.
>
> My goal is to become a technical resource for XCSoar users. But since
> I'm new, it will take me some time to get up to speed.
>
> I'll be perfectly honest, in the past, I have not spent much time with
> XCSoar because I prefer to sell products like SeeYou Mobile and Glide
> Navigator II - because I'm trying to make a living selling soaring
> products and supporting glider pilots with their technical products.
> Since I can't sell XCSoar, it has been tough to make time to play with
> it. However, many XCSoar users have told me how great it is, and I want
> to be able to support XCSoar users with phone/web conferencing support
> (I do a lot of that with SeeYou, SeeYou Mobile, Oudie, Glide Navigator
> II and LXe users) and also provide cables, cradles and other accessories
> for XCSoar users. Also, I try to stay up to date on the latest
> technologies (I'm a techno-nerd) and XCSoar is definitely on the leading
> edge in regard to supported hardware platforms. Becoming knowledgeable
> on XCSoar (over time) will help me stay up with the latest technologies.
>
> The reason I'm sending this note is to try to get a feel for how
> customers are using XCSoar. I really have no idea what hardware users
> are running it on, or how they are connecting their PDAs and PNAs to
> their soaring flight instruments.
>
> I hope no one minds my asking these questions. I sincerely want to be
> able to help XCSoar users and become an expert.
>
> Questions:
> - What hardware platform (PDA/PNA/phone) are you running XCSoar on?
> - What GPS are you using with XCSoar? Is it built-in to your PDA/PNA
> or connected to your PDA using a cable connection, or Bluetooth, or.?
> - Is your PDA/PNA connected to a soaring flight computer? If so, is it
> a cable connection or Bluetooth, or .?
> - If you are using a Bluetooth connection - is it reliable and easy to
> use?
> - If you are using cables, where did you get them? I'd love to be able
> to supply Goddard built cables for XCSoar users. Any PDA/PNA connector
> wiring diagrams would be greatly appreciated.
>
> I'm sorry for these basic questions. I look forward to your feedback.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Paul Remde
> Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
> Serving the soaring community
> http://www.cumulus-soaring.com
> 1-952-445-9033
>


--
Stefan Murry

[Max Kellermann]

S. Murry > wrote:
> Cons:
> 1) Documentation is sparse and infrequently updated with new features as
> they emerge. I imagine this will eventually "catch up" with the
> developers, but currently a fair amount of "trial and error" is required
> to figure out how to use the system.

We know that, and we're terribly sorry for the outdated manual. The
problem is: everybody likes to hack code, that's exciting, but writing
documentation is rather boring.

You can blame me, too; I spent countless nights on new features, but
for 6.2, I have documented none of it yet.

We would love to have more volunteers to help improve the
documentation. There are about six thousand pilots who installed
XCSoar from Google's Android Market, not counting anonymous downloads
from our web site; there must be some potential for more contributors!

Max

[S. Murry]

Max, I'll be happy to volunteer. I'll e-mail you privately to see how I
can help.

--Stefan

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 03:53:28 -0500, Max Kellermann > wrote:

> S. Murry > wrote:
>> Cons:
>> 1) Documentation is sparse and infrequently updated with new
>> features as
>> they emerge. I imagine this will eventually "catch up" with the
>> developers, but currently a fair amount of "trial and error" is required
>> to figure out how to use the system.
>
> We know that, and we're terribly sorry for the outdated manual. The
> problem is: everybody likes to hack code, that's exciting, but writing
> documentation is rather boring.
>
> You can blame me, too; I spent countless nights on new features, but
> for 6.2, I have documented none of it yet.
>
> We would love to have more volunteers to help improve the
> documentation. There are about six thousand pilots who installed
> XCSoar from Google's Android Market, not counting anonymous downloads
> from our web site; there must be some potential for more contributors!
>
> Max


--
Stefan Murry

[Adam]

Questions:
- What hardware platform (PDA/PNA/phone) are you running XCSoar on?
I have two systems running XCsoar, a newer one on a Dell Axim Axim
X51v, my old one is on the old Dell X5.

- What GPS are you using with XCSoar? Is it built-in to your PDA/PNA
or
connected to your PDA using a cable connection, or Bluetooth, or.?
Dell Axim Axim X51v uses a Haicom Bluethooth dongle type, the older X5
uses the Haicom 303 that plugs into the SD slot. Both work very well
but of course the X5 is much harder to see. In a way I prefer the
simple nature of the X5 over the X51v. But I fly with the newer one
which has a newer, updated O/S in it (I'll have to check what I put in
there but it was a hack of sorts I bought from ebay a few years ago.).
Today I would chose a more modern hardware platform.


- Is your PDA/PNA connected to a soaring flight computer? If so, is
it a
cable connection or Bluetooth, or .?
No.

- If you are using a Bluetooth connection - is it reliable and easy
to use?
Easy to set up the first time? No. Reliable and easy to connect once
set up? Yes.

- If you are using cables, where did you get them? I'd love to be
able to
supply Goddard built cables for XCSoar users. Any PDA/PNA connector
wiring
diagrams would be greatly appreciated.

I only have power cables. The older Dell X5 works off an extended
battery. Good for 5 hours or so.

The newer X51v runs off an voltage regulator sourced from radio
control which supplies a clean 5 volts to the PDA and GPS dongle. I
made this harness myself from a 12V cigaratte power adaptor "kit"
sourced off the internet (it came with a vatiety of plugs for all
types of PDA,s and cell phones). I tried to use the cigarette lighter-
style power supply that came with the kit but it was very dirty power
and messed with my radio transmissions. Once I chaged to the better r/
c type of regulator my VHF radio problems went away.

Paul, thanks for your nice webpage and the PDA reviews. I used them a
lot when shopping for this stuff. Let me know if you have any more
questions.

See you on the field,
Adam

[Wayne Paul]

Stefan,

As mentioned earlier, I'm currently using LK8000 on an iPAQ 4700. I'm using
both a cable and Bluetooth serial connections. The cable is from my GPS (in
the future PowerFLARM) and data from my Borgelt B-50 is transmitted via
Bluetooth.

The Bluetooth interface used with the B-50 was purchased from Paul.
(http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/k6.htm) So far I haven't had any problems
with either battery life, or interference.

Wayne
http://tinyurl.com/N990-6F

"S. Murry" wrote in message
...

....Snip...

I am not a big fan of bluetooth in this application due to concerns about
power draw and interference. Probably these are overblown concerns on my
part, but for "mission critical" connections, I really prefer a cable.

.... Snip ...

[S. Murry]

Thanks, Paul. It's good to hear that the bluetooth is a workable solution.

--Stefan

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 09:52:21 -0500, Wayne Paul > wrote:

> Stefan,
>
> ...Snip...
>
> The Bluetooth interface used with the B-50 was purchased from Paul.
> (http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/k6.htm) So far I haven't had any
> problems with either battery life, or interference.
>
> Wayne
> http://tinyurl.com/N990-6F
>
> "S. Murry" wrote in message
> ...
>
> ...Snip...
>
> I am not a big fan of bluetooth in this application due to concerns about
> power draw and interference. Probably these are overblown concerns on my
> part, but for "mission critical" connections, I really prefer a cable.
>
> ... Snip ...


--
Stefan Murry

[YourNameHere]

I am running both XC Soar and LK8000 on a MIO S501 PNA.
Runs great, but screen could be a bit brighter.
I am complementing GNII which has fallen far behind on performance and
good task information, but I really like the readability of the Compaq
1500 display. If only I could get XC Soar on a Compaq 1500 display I'd
be done.
The MIO even though a 12 channel gps receiver will occasionally lose gps
in thermals, but only briefly and returns.

XC Soar has the best documentation compared to LK8000.

Wells

On 9/20/2011 12:32 PM, Paul Remde wrote:
> Hi XCSoar users,
>
> I am new to XCSoar. I am currently reading the manual for version 6.2
> and playing with XCSoar on my PC and iPAQ hx4700.
>
> My goal is to become a technical resource for XCSoar users. But since
> I'm new, it will take me some time to get up to speed.
>
> I'll be perfectly honest, in the past, I have not spent much time with
> XCSoar because I prefer to sell products like SeeYou Mobile and Glide
> Navigator II - because I'm trying to make a living selling soaring
> products and supporting glider pilots with their technical products.
> Since I can't sell XCSoar, it has been tough to make time to play with
> it. However, many XCSoar users have told me how great it is, and I want
> to be able to support XCSoar users with phone/web conferencing support
> (I do a lot of that with SeeYou, SeeYou Mobile, Oudie, Glide Navigator
> II and LXe users) and also provide cables, cradles and other accessories
> for XCSoar users. Also, I try to stay up to date on the latest
> technologies (I'm a techno-nerd) and XCSoar is definitely on the leading
> edge in regard to supported hardware platforms. Becoming knowledgeable
> on XCSoar (over time) will help me stay up with the latest technologies.
>
> The reason I'm sending this note is to try to get a feel for how
> customers are using XCSoar. I really have no idea what hardware users
> are running it on, or how they are connecting their PDAs and PNAs to
> their soaring flight instruments.
>
> I hope no one minds my asking these questions. I sincerely want to be
> able to help XCSoar users and become an expert.
>
> Questions:
> - What hardware platform (PDA/PNA/phone) are you running XCSoar on?
> - What GPS are you using with XCSoar? Is it built-in to your PDA/PNA or
> connected to your PDA using a cable connection, or Bluetooth, or.?
> - Is your PDA/PNA connected to a soaring flight computer? If so, is it a
> cable connection or Bluetooth, or .?
> - If you are using a Bluetooth connection - is it reliable and easy to use?
> - If you are using cables, where did you get them? I'd love to be able
> to supply Goddard built cables for XCSoar users. Any PDA/PNA connector
> wiring diagrams would be greatly appreciated.
>
> I'm sorry for these basic questions. I look forward to your feedback.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Paul Remde
> Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
> Serving the soaring community
> http://www.cumulus-soaring.com
> 1-952-445-9033
>

[soartech]

LK8000 has a great manual on their website, over 200 pages. Trouble is
it is
all in German. Isn't there someone out there who would like to
translate to English
for us mono-linguistic pilots?

[Wayne Paul]

This isn't the latest version; however, it will is a good reference to
understanding the LK8000 philosophy. The "Help" elements of Ver 2.x screens
will fill in the blanks.
http://www.bware.it/LK8000/LK8000_MANUAL_122.pdf

Wayne

"soartech" wrote in message
...

LK8000 has a great manual on their website, over 200 pages. Trouble is
it is
all in German. Isn't there someone out there who would like to
translate to English
for us mono-linguistic pilots?

[Sean Fidler]

Paul,

Using Droid X and recently Droid bionic. Use the internal phone GPS currently but would love to use a cable from the lx5000 or bluetooth from LX Nano.. Have Oudie...but also like learning about other popular units that people are using.

Just like Google Maps and their Navigaton product has dominated Garmin out of existence in consumer GPS, so has XC soar begun to crush other flight computers. Partially because of cost but mostly because of the convenience of an all in one device. People don't want to carry 5 hardware units around.

With Garmin, their business model holds the basic limitation and requirement to purchase their hardware (crappy, requires second piece of hardware vs already being onboard ones phone) & most importantly expensive software (maps) upgrades or being faced with out of date maps. Google Nav/Maps is up to date automatically just as XC soar is automatically updated with Google market.

The other soaring product/software companies do not get it. They should have been out in front on this trend. Instead they are ignorant and way behind. They are stuck on stupid and ignoring this clear success of integrating software into smartphones or (most likely) are completely unable to respond to what XC Soar had done. A vast majority of their customers want to use their smart phones the many advantages they offer in hardware currency... And they are not reorganizing the transformation in the marketplace. They cannot compete any longer with garbage hardware. Why are so many who own expensive Oudies even trying XC Soar? The current providers offer cheap Chinese hardware vs. allowing their customers to use rapidly improving and vastly superior screen quality in mobile devices which most relevant pilots own already. Why they are still doing this is obvious, $$$. The customers are onto them now.

Also, the more recent generation Android smartphones feature increasingly large screens which can get extremely bright. Far brighter than, for example, my Oudie. All if these companies should be offering software on all major mobile platforms. The first ones to do so will dominate and likely kill the rest...

[Sean Fidler]

Oh and by the way...I would happily pay $100+ for professional supported software from Google market for soaring. I'm sure many iPhone/iPad users would as well. Maybe that's Max & team? Maybe somebody will buy them. But more should be stepping up to compete...

For now...XC soar is way ahead...for a vast najoriry if recreational and racing soaring pilots. Distribution is good!

[Max Kellermann]

Sean Fidler > wrote:
> Oh and by the way...I would happily pay $100+ for professional supported software from Google market for soaring. I'm sure many iPhone/iPad users would as well. Maybe that's Max & team? Maybe somebody will buy them. But more should be stepping up to compete...

There's iGlide on the iPhone, but that's a proprietary software that
was started from scratch last year - it has some refreshing new
concepts, but it will probably never be able to catch up with XCSoar,
it's a one trick pony.

Proprietary software is a dead end, because to make something better,
you need to start from scratch. With free software, you improve the
existing thing, and contribute to the big project as a whole.

Money will not improve XCSoar. What we do is only possible because
there is no money involved: when developer time costs nothing, you can
afford to spend a year or two on just improving things on the backend,
where no user will notice it, until the big picture becomes visible
(e.g. the Android port, my pet project).

For that reason, none of the commercial vendors have an Android port:
they cannot afford the massive amount of developer time required to do
it. I spent thousands of hours on our Android port, with help from
other fellow developers. That's some huge investment that will never
pay off for a commercial vendor. It's not solely ignorance.

Anyway, don't believe me, I'm biased ;-)

Max

[Ramy]

On Sep 23, 10:55*am, Max Kellermann > wrote:
> Sean Fidler > wrote:
> > Oh and by the way...I would happily pay $100+ for professional supported software from Google market for soaring. *I'm sure many iPhone/iPad users would as well. *Maybe that's Max & team? *Maybe somebody will buy them. *But more should be stepping up to compete...
>
> There's iGlide on the iPhone, but that's a proprietary software that
> was started from scratch last year - it has some refreshing new
> concepts, but it will probably never be able to catch up with XCSoar,
> it's a one trick pony.
>
> Proprietary software is a dead end, because to make something better,
> you need to start from scratch. *With free software, you improve the
> existing thing, and contribute to the big project as a whole.
>
> Money will not improve XCSoar. *What we do is only possible because
> there is no money involved: when developer time costs nothing, you can
> afford to spend a year or two on just improving things on the backend,
> where no user will notice it, until the big picture becomes visible
> (e.g. the Android port, my pet project).
>
> For that reason, none of the commercial vendors have an Android port:
> they cannot afford the massive amount of developer time required to do
> it. *I spent thousands of hours on our Android port, with help from
> other fellow developers. *That's some huge investment that will never
> pay off for a commercial vendor. *It's not solely ignorance.
>
> Anyway, don't believe me, I'm biased ;-)
>
> Max

Good discussion. I decided it is time to replace my 4700 PDA (which
keep freezing on me recently when it gets too hot) with a Droid
running XCSoar. My understanding that the Dell Streak mini is the best
option currently, and am getting ready to get one on eBay. What is not
clear to me is what else will I need to be able to connect it to my
302 and the glider battery, including cradle, without having to build
it myself or pay more than the cost of the tablet itself. Also if
anyone has suggestion for better Droid based hardware please advise.

Ramy

[Max Kellermann]

Ramy > wrote:
> Good discussion. I decided it is time to replace my 4700 PDA (which
> keep freezing on me recently when it gets too hot) with a Droid
> running XCSoar. My understanding that the Dell Streak mini is the best
> option currently, and am getting ready to get one on eBay.

That's right, the Streak Mini has the best sunlight readable display.
Get one while you can, it's out of production.

> What is not clear to me is what else will I need to be able to
> connect it to my 302 and the glider battery, including cradle,
> without having to build it myself or pay more than the cost of the
> tablet itself.

There are two options for the data connection: a Bluetooth adapter
(easy), or the IOIO (you need to solder it).

The battery connection is easy: the CAI 302 has a DC 5V outlet, which
you connect to a USB plug. This is how my panel looks:

http://max.kellermann.name/gallery/fliegen/streak-mount/PICT0423_1024x768.html

Max

[Ramy]

On Sep 25, 12:16*pm, Max Kellermann > wrote:
> Ramy > wrote:
> > Good discussion. I decided it is time to replace my 4700 PDA (which
> > keep freezing on me recently *when it gets too hot) with a Droid
> > running XCSoar. My understanding that the Dell Streak mini is the best
> > option currently, and am getting ready to get one on eBay.
>
> That's right, the Streak Mini has the best sunlight readable display.
> Get one while you can, it's out of production.
>
> > What is not clear to me is what else will I need to be able to
> > connect it to my 302 and the glider battery, including cradle,
> > without having to build it myself or pay more than the cost of the
> > tablet itself.
>
> There are two options for the data connection: a Bluetooth adapter
> (easy), or the IOIO (you need to solder it).
>
> The battery connection is easy: the CAI 302 has a DC 5V outlet, which
> you connect to a USB plug. *This is how my panel looks:
>
> *http://max.kellermann.name/gallery/fliegen/streak-mount/PICT0423_1024....
>
> Max

Thanks Max. Any suggestions for cradle?
Also, now that the Amazon Kindle Fire was announced, perhaps it could
be a better solution?

Ramy

[Max Kellermann]

Ramy > wrote:
> Thanks Max. Any suggestions for cradle?

On my photos, you can see the original Dell cradle for cars. One of
my club mates builds mounts from bended plastic.

Max

[Craig Funston]

On Sep 28, 12:06*pm, Ramy > wrote:
> On Sep 25, 12:16*pm, Max Kellermann > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Ramy > wrote:
> > > Good discussion. I decided it is time to replace my 4700 PDA (which
> > > keep freezing on me recently *when it gets too hot) with a Droid
> > > running XCSoar. My understanding that the Dell Streak mini is the best
> > > option currently, and am getting ready to get one on eBay.
>
> > That's right, the Streak Mini has the best sunlight readable display.
> > Get one while you can, it's out of production.
>
> > > What is not clear to me is what else will I need to be able to
> > > connect it to my 302 and the glider battery, including cradle,
> > > without having to build it myself or pay more than the cost of the
> > > tablet itself.
>
> > There are two options for the data connection: a Bluetooth adapter
> > (easy), or the IOIO (you need to solder it).
>
> > The battery connection is easy: the CAI 302 has a DC 5V outlet, which
> > you connect to a USB plug. *This is how my panel looks:
>
> > *http://max.kellermann.name/gallery/fliegen/streak-mount/PICT0423_1024...
>
> > Max
>
> Thanks Max. Any suggestions for cradle?
> Also, now that the Amazon Kindle Fire was announced, perhaps it could
> be a better solution?
>
> Ramy

It sounds like the Kindle Fire hardware is similar to the color Nook.
Nook has the advantage of an SD slot and is hackable....

Thanks,
Craig

[akiley]

Hi Paul,

I don't own a glider, only club and rental. I own SeeYou mobile and
PC with several iPaqs. SeeYou has several bug$ that never get fixed.
And the iPaq hardware is horribly old and slow. So I tried XCSoar on
my Droid X Android phone. It's so much faster, larger and more
readable screen. I do not have an external GPS for the Droid, so it's
sort of my backup GPS for now. I ran them both and got some IGC file
discrepancies that may be from lack of external antenna for the Droid
X.

Anyway, I think XCSoar is amazing. The shaded circle around your
glider showing wind aware landout point based on polar, safety
altitude etc is very nice.

XCSoar has improved dramatically recently. Porting to Android and
great features. I still occasionally get kicked out of the app and
have to restart it, but it happens less with each upgrade. That said,
this type of thing happens with SeeYou and iPaq too.

Hoping for more refinements from XCSoar namely some kind of color
coded nav boxes like SeeYou so you can quickly id data.

Sean Fiddler is right. People keep begging for these commercial apps
to port to modern hardware. I've seen the Oudie but I think it
terrible in full sun. The iPaqs are better because the screen sort of
uses the sun to light the image. Oudie is much better in the shade
though.

Anyway, but thumbs up for XCSoar! ... Aaron

[Paul Remde]

Hi Aaron,

I'm sorry, but I must respectfully disagree with your statements below about
the Naviter Oudie. I find it to be fast and significantly brighter in
sunlight than any iPAQ. The only devices that are brighter are the much
more expensive LX8000, LX8080, LX98000, ClearNav, Ultimate, and LX Mini Map.

Please mention the bugs in SeeYou Mobile that have not been fixed. I think
it works great and is very well supported.

I think the new devices do look interesting, but the Oudie has been and
continues to be hugely popular. I've sold 336 so far. Customers seem to
like them very much - and tell their friends about them.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

"akiley" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Paul,
>
> I don't own a glider, only club and rental. I own SeeYou mobile and
> PC with several iPaqs. SeeYou has several bug$ that never get fixed.
> And the iPaq hardware is horribly old and slow. So I tried XCSoar on
> my Droid X Android phone. It's so much faster, larger and more
> readable screen. I do not have an external GPS for the Droid, so it's
> sort of my backup GPS for now. I ran them both and got some IGC file
> discrepancies that may be from lack of external antenna for the Droid
> X.
>
> Anyway, I think XCSoar is amazing. The shaded circle around your
> glider showing wind aware landout point based on polar, safety
> altitude etc is very nice.
>
> XCSoar has improved dramatically recently. Porting to Android and
> great features. I still occasionally get kicked out of the app and
> have to restart it, but it happens less with each upgrade. That said,
> this type of thing happens with SeeYou and iPaq too.
>
> Hoping for more refinements from XCSoar namely some kind of color
> coded nav boxes like SeeYou so you can quickly id data.
>
> Sean Fiddler is right. People keep begging for these commercial apps
> to port to modern hardware. I've seen the Oudie but I think it
> terrible in full sun. The iPaqs are better because the screen sort of
> uses the sun to light the image. Oudie is much better in the shade
> though.
>
> Anyway, but thumbs up for XCSoar! ... Aaron
>
>

[Max Kellermann]

akiley > wrote:
> I still occasionally get kicked out of the app and have to restart
> it, but it happens less with each upgrade. That said, this type of
> thing happens with SeeYou and iPaq too.

We expect that this does not happen at all, and we take every bug
report very serious. On Windows CE, the unstable operating system and
ancient flaky hardware is responsible for most crashes. But on
Android, once we get a good bug report, it's usually fairly easy to
fix.

What we need in a bug report is a "logcat" (Android's system log).
Install an app such as "CatLog" from the market. When XCSoar crashes,
use CatLog to save the log to a file. Upload that file to a bug
report on our bug tracker (http://www.xcsoar.org/trac/newticket).

Bugs don't get fixed magically, they only get fixed if users report
them to us.

(And thanks for praising XCSoar, all on the team are putting a lot of
sweat into it ...)

Max

[akiley]

On Sep 30, 2:29*am, Max Kellermann > wrote:
> akiley > wrote:
> > I still occasionally get kicked out of the app and have to restart
> > it, but it happens less with each upgrade. *That said, this type of
> > thing happens with SeeYou and iPaq too.
>
> We expect that this does not happen at all, and we take every bug
> report very serious. *On Windows CE, the unstable operating system and
> ancient flaky hardware is responsible for most crashes. *But on
> Android, once we get a good bug report, it's usually fairly easy to
> fix.
>
> What we need in a bug report is a "logcat" (Android's system log).
> Install an app such as "CatLog" from the market. *WhenXCSoarcrashes,
> use CatLog to save the log to a file. *Upload that file to a bug
> report on our bug tracker (http://www.xcsoar.org/trac/newticket).
>
> Bugs don't get fixed magically, they only get fixed if users report
> them to us.
>
> (And thanks for praisingXCSoar, all on the team are putting a lot of
> sweat into it ...)
>
> Max

Thanks Max, I attempted to do a bug report a few months ago as per
your instructions on your forum. I downloaded catlog, but I couldn't
figure out what triggered it my crash. My luck, every time I ran
CatLog it wouldn't crash. For that reason I didn't do an "official"
bug report. But you fixed something because I've been using the 6.2.1
with no problems so far. Ran it for several hours today and a few
yesterday. Noticed you did several Android bug fixes with 6.2.1 and
that may have done the trick. Great App. ... Aaron

[akiley]

On Sep 29, 10:57*pm, "Paul Remde" > wrote:
> Hi Aaron,
>
> I'm sorry, but I must respectfully disagree with your statements below about
> the Naviter Oudie. *I find it to be fast and significantly brighter in
> sunlight than any iPAQ. *The only devices that are brighter are the much
> more expensive LX8000, LX8080, LX98000, ClearNav, Ultimate, and LX Mini Map.
>
> Please mention the bugs in SeeYou Mobile that have not been fixed. *I think
> it works great and is very well supported.
>
> I think the new devices do look interesting, but the Oudie has been and
> continues to be hugely popular. *I've sold 336 so far. *Customers seem to
> like them very much - and tell their friends about them.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Paul Remde
> Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
>
> "akiley" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > Hi Paul,
>
> > I don't own a glider, only club and rental. *I own SeeYou mobile and
> > PC with several iPaqs. *SeeYou has several bug$ that never get fixed.
> > And the iPaq hardware is horribly old and slow. *So I triedXCSoaron
> > my Droid X Android phone. *It's so much faster, larger and more
> > readable screen. *I do not have an external GPS for the Droid, so it's
> > sort of my backup GPS for now. *I ran them both and got some IGC file
> > discrepancies that may be from lack of external antenna for the Droid
> > X.
>
> > Anyway, I thinkXCSoaris amazing. *The shaded circle around your
> > glider showing wind aware landout point based on polar, safety
> > altitude etc is very nice.
>
> >XCSoarhas improved dramatically recently. *Porting to Android and
> > great features. *I still occasionally get kicked out of the app and
> > have to restart it, but it happens less with each upgrade. *That said,
> > this type of thing happens with SeeYou and iPaq too.
>
> > Hoping for more refinements fromXCSoarnamely some kind of color
> > coded nav boxes like SeeYou so you can quickly id data.
>
> > Sean Fiddler is right. *People keep begging for these commercial apps
> > to port to modern hardware. *I've seen the Oudie but I think it
> > terrible in full sun. *The iPaqs are better because the screen sort of
> > uses the sun to light the image. *Oudie is much better in the shade
> > though.
>
> > Anyway, but thumbs up forXCSoar! *... Aaron

I've mentioned these bugs on the Naviter forum and on this group. I
don't have the latest SeeYou, I'm at 3.2. I lived with these bugs for
a long time and didn't feel like spending more money on an upgrade to
see if they were fixed or not. Here is my list. The wing loading
changes when you leave the polar screen then come back. In Michigan,
the magnetic track box is off 12 degrees. Sometimes the graphic
thermal page shows blank the entire flight, sometimes it starts
working part way through. The Required MC to your target (NavBox)
doesn't take wind into account like the pseudo glideslope indicator
does.

I still like SeeYou mobile, and especially SeeYou PC, but I think
these should have been fixed by free incremental upgrades. I paid
good money for these apps :-)

I'm glad people like Oudie/SeeYou combo, and I'm sorry I dissagree,
but I still say in full sun, the Oudie is not as readable as the old
iPacs. They have a brighter screen for sure, but in full sun, screen
brightness isn't really a factor because the sun overpowers them so
much. I put the Oudie side by side with several iPaqs in direct sun
and played with every angle to the sun, and reflected them into my
black t-shirt for maximum contrast and that was my personal
conclusion. I forget the name for it, but the old iPaqs (3700 and
3850) have a screen that will sort of glow when held at the correct
angle to full sun. Under a cloud I wouldn't be surprised if Oudie was
as good or better. Maybe building a sun shade for the Oudie as I've
heard people talk about. One of the new Android phones has this kind
of screen which is recommend on the XCSoar forums.

... Aaron

[Ramy]

On Sep 28, 11:11*pm, Max Kellermann > wrote:
> Ramy > wrote:
> > Thanks Max. Any suggestions for cradle?
>
> On my photos, you can see the original Dell cradle for cars. *One of
> my club mates builds mounts from bended plastic.
>
> Max

The following mounting for the streak was recommended to me:
http://www.slipgripcarmounts.com/SlipGrip-RAM-HOL-Mount-Dell-Streak-5-OtterBox-Commuter_p_99842.html
So looks like we have all the pieces. Except maybe for integrating
with flarm in addition to 302? Will this require the K6Mux in addition
to the K6bt?

Ramy

[Max Kellermann]

Ramy > wrote:
> Except maybe for integrating with flarm in addition to 302? Will
> this require the K6Mux in addition to the K6bt?

No, just K6-Bt. If you want to connect multiple loggers/varios/...,
then you can use multiple K6-Bt (I have two adapters, one for CAI302
and one for FLARM, to have airspeed/vario data and traffic data at the
same time). K6-Mux is a deprecated product for legacy hardware.

[Ramy]

On Oct 1, 3:04*am, Max Kellermann > wrote:
> Ramy > wrote:
> > Except maybe for integrating with flarm in addition to 302? Will
> > this require the K6Mux in addition to the K6bt?
>
> No, just K6-Bt. *If you want to connect multiple loggers/varios/...,
> then you can use multiple K6-Bt (I have two adapters, one for CAI302
> and one for FLARM, to have airspeed/vario data and traffic data at the
> same time). *K6-Mux is a deprecated product for legacy hardware.

When I dig more into the various accessories needed, I find the
pricing, hmm, interesting...
- The amazing software, accumulative of many developers hours, is
free!
- The hardware is priced right ($200-$400)
- The accessories are expensive (BT adapters, mountings etc)
- The cables are down right outragously expensive ($45-75$ for a DB9
to RJ-11/USB!!) are they made of gold??
Obviously I am in the wrog business, writing software. Should make
cables instead...
Anyone can recommend a more reasonable source to purchase those
cables?

Ramy