Alien Attack Described By Werner Von Braun's CoWorker

[Quaalude]

Werner Von Braun gave Carol Rosin a work colleague a mission in 1977. To
tell the world about the Nazi controlled secret government in the
U.S.A. A large part of the NSA, CIA and NASA were infiltrated after
Project Paperclip brought over 170 Nazi scientists to the USA after the
end of WWII in 1945. These scientists established a secret order and
brought hundreds of Ex Nazi's into the US government.

Werner Von Braun the Father of Rocket Science and the NASA space program
was so horrified at their plan of world wide genocide he told Carol
Rosin. Everything she has predicted since 1977 has come true. The next
thing to happen will be a false E.T attack so that more legislation
against the people can be rushed through as an emergency measure.

This was predicted by Werner Von Braun In 1977 because he had seen the
plan laid out in detail.

http://youtu.be/t-wsBFSsCbI

[Tom[_15_]]

On Sat, 8 Oct 2011 16:50:54 -0400, Quaalude wrote:

> Werner Von Braun gave Carol Rosin a work colleague a mission in 1977. To
> tell the world about the Nazi controlled secret government in the
> U.S.A. A large part of the NSA, CIA and NASA were infiltrated after
> Project Paperclip brought over 170 Nazi scientists to the USA after the
> end of WWII in 1945. These scientists established a secret order and
> brought hundreds of Ex Nazi's into the US government.
>
> Werner Von Braun the Father of Rocket Science and the NASA space program
> was so horrified at their plan of world wide genocide he told Carol
> Rosin. Everything she has predicted since 1977 has come true. The next
> thing to happen will be a false E.T attack so that more legislation
> against the people can be rushed through as an emergency measure.
>
> This was predicted by Werner Von Braun In 1977 because he had seen the
> plan laid out in detail.
>
> http://youtu.be/t-wsBFSsCbI

There are multiple accounts from highly intelligent, well-respected
people (in their professions) which concur and addendum Ms. Rosin
including Bonnie Phillips, WvBraun's NASA secretary. I am one who feels
that the preponderance of accounts conclude with her assertions.

The followup question would be when and where with when of paramount
importance.

[Bert[_2_]]

In Quaalude >
wrote:

> Werner Von Braun the Father of Rocket Science

You've read his biography, haven't you?

"I Aim For the Stars (but sometimes I hit London)"

--
St. Paul, MN

[Tom[_15_]]

On 08 Oct 2011 21:08:02 GMT, Bert wrote:

> In Quaalude >
> wrote:
>
>> Werner Von Braun the Father of Rocket Science
>
> You've read his biography, haven't you?
>
> "I Aim For the Stars (but sometimes I hit London)"

Poke a bit of fun at our favorite SS Nazi, eh? :)

WvBraun was a complex man of many, many complexities, finding which ones
dominated his life is a very difficult proposition. I tend to rely more
on the evidences of the Carol Rosin' who knew him personally than I do
of Internet-based authors who claim to have studied his history. YMMV.

[Tom[_15_]]

On Sat, 8 Oct 2011 17:21:18 -0400, Tom wrote:

> On 08 Oct 2011 21:08:02 GMT, Bert wrote:
>
>> In Quaalude >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Werner Von Braun the Father of Rocket Science
>>
>> You've read his biography, haven't you?
>>
>> "I Aim For the Stars (but sometimes I hit London)"
>
> Poke a bit of fun at our favorite SS Nazi, eh? :)
>
> WvBraun was a complex man of many, many complexities, finding which ones
> dominated his life is a very difficult proposition. I tend to rely more
> on the evidences of the Carol Rosin' who knew him personally than I do
> of Internet-based authors who claim to have studied his history. YMMV.

http://youtu.be/s8Nc-gG7vIY

more from Ms. Rosin Quaalude.

[Dan[_15_]]

On 10/8/2011 3:50 PM, Quaalude wrote:
> Werner Von Braun gave Carol Rosin a work colleague a mission in 1977. To
> tell the world about the Nazi controlled secret government in the
> U.S.A. A large part of the NSA, CIA and NASA were infiltrated after
> Project Paperclip brought over 170 Nazi scientists to the USA after the
> end of WWII in 1945. These scientists established a secret order and
> brought hundreds of Ex Nazi's into the US government.
>
> Werner Von Braun the Father of Rocket Science and the NASA space program
> was so horrified at their plan of world wide genocide he told Carol
> Rosin. Everything she has predicted since 1977 has come true. The next
> thing to happen will be a false E.T attack so that more legislation
> against the people can be rushed through as an emergency measure.
>
> This was predicted by Werner Von Braun In 1977 because he had seen the
> plan laid out in detail.
>
> http://youtu.be/t-wsBFSsCbI

So Sturmbannführer von Braun had nothing better to do in the last 6
months before his death to babble such nonsense? He became a good Nazi
16 June 1977.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Dan[_15_]]

On 10/8/2011 4:08 PM, Bert wrote:
> In >
> wrote:
>
>> Werner Von Braun the Father of Rocket Science
>
> You've read his biography, haven't you?
>
> "I Aim For the Stars (but sometimes I hit London)"
>

Sturmbannführer von Braun claimed he based is work on Goddard's.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Eunometic]

On Oct 9, 8:08*am, Bert > wrote:
> >
> wrote:
>
> > Werner Von Braun the Father of Rocket Science
>
> You've read his biography, haven't you?
>
> "I Aim For the Stars (but sometimes I hit London)"

Of course this comes from the lyrics of a left wing jewish satirist
pushing his own agenda.

Do you think he might have satirised Jewish Partisans who on more than
one occaision slaughtered entire Polish villages: atrocities several
times worse than Oradour-sur-Glane.
The murderous Bielski brothers are celebrated as heroes but were war
criminals.

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2011/10/jewish-partisan-warfare-during-wwii/


The bombardment of London by the V2 was morally the same as 1942
Bomber Commands area bombardment and dehousing campaign directed
against residential areas of cities often of negligible strategic
value such as Rostok or Lubek. The accuracy of H2S 3cm was atrocious:
about 5km. A system working like Oboe but using transmitters orbiting
at height to extend the range of Oboe was never proceded with despite
its simpliticity.

The V2's guidance system had not been perfected however the “voll-
zirkel” or “wireless canon barrel” beam riding system was to have an
accuracy of 0.05 degrees with engine velocity cut-off controlled by
both Doppler speed and down range distance for a theoretical accuracy
of better than 500m (excluding wind drift on re-entry)

The system ran into difficulties with ground wave interference for the
elevation portion of the guidance and had to be re-engineered for
higher frequencies and compensating techniques and so missed the war.

It required on 4000 hours to build the V2 missile, much less than a
single engined fighter with engine such as an Me 109.


The winged version, the A9 (or A4b) could have attacked Britain from
bases in Germany with an accuracy of 180m.


Werener von Braun accelerated mankinds expansion into space by about
10 years, (so did Albert Speer who supplied the funds)

von Braun when he secured German Army funding for the missile promised
to produce a missile with an absolute accuracy of 300m. He just
missed out, by a few months, on achieving close to that as he was
forced to place the V2 in production ahead of schedule. He was
building an accurate precise weapon whose collateral damage would have
been less than most WW2 level bombers. Like many men he was compelled
to compromise; he certainly was not the first to mack such a choice
but rather one of the last.

[Keith Willshaw[_3_]]

Eunometic wrote:
> On Oct 9, 8:08 am, Bert > wrote:
>>
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Werner Von Braun the Father of Rocket Science
>>
>> You've read his biography, haven't you?
>>
>> "I Aim For the Stars (but sometimes I hit London)"
>
> Of course this comes from the lyrics of a left wing jewish satirist
> pushing his own agenda.
>
> Do you think he might have satirised Jewish Partisans who on more than
> one occaision slaughtered entire Polish villages: atrocities several
> times worse than Oradour-sur-Glane.
> The murderous Bielski brothers are celebrated as heroes but were war
> criminals.

Reality check

The Nazis systematically razed eastern poland and Belarus.
Some 9,000 Belarusian settlements were destroyed
and over 5295 settlements were burned and some or all
their inhabitants killed. Almost the whole Jewish population
of Belarus which did not initially evacuate was killed.

The Bielski's were peaceful millers who fled into the forest.
Most of their families were killed. They managed to rescue
thousands of others in the same position and establish
and defend a large mobile settlement in the forest before
coming to an arrangement with Soviet partisans.

They were ruthless certainly but the times demanded it.
Any of their number who failed to rescue civilians
when it was possible was also shot.

As for entire Polish villages being destroyed we know
who actually did that. Bottom line it was kill Nazis
or die, they chose to kill Nazis.

Keith

[Bert[_2_]]

In
Eunometic > wrote:

> The bombardment of London by the V2 was morally the same as 1942
> Bomber Commands area bombardment and dehousing campaign directed
> against residential areas of cities often of negligible strategic
> value such as Rostok or Lubek.

You're still a little upset about the way the war came out, aren't you?

--
St. Paul, MN

[Marvin the Martian]

On Mon, 10 Oct 2011 11:55:02 +0000, Bert wrote:

> In
> Eunometic > wrote:
>
>> The bombardment of London by the V2 was morally the same as 1942 Bomber
>> Commands area bombardment and dehousing campaign directed against
>> residential areas of cities often of negligible strategic value such as
>> Rostok or Lubek.
>
> You're still a little upset about the way the war came out, aren't you?

Yeah. Their war crimes were EVIL. Our war crimes were GOOD!

[Matt[_1_]]

Complex is a good description of von Braun. Read the definitive
biograply, Michael Neufeld's Werhner von Braun: Dreamer of Space,
Engineer of War. I don't mean to excuse anything he did or was
involved in. I'm just saying Neufeld's exhaustively researched bio
goes into depth I could barely touch on in my 2004 book The First
Space Race.
The Nazi secret government - UFO thing... hmmm.. Don't you think it
might mean a little more if there was a fractions of a shred of
evidence besides attributed statements floating on the Web?

Matt

[Moramarth]

On Oct 10, 3:22 am, Eunometic > wrote:
>
> It required on 4000 hours to build the V2 missile, much less than a
> single engined fighter with engine such as an Me 109.
It's more economical than that, as the V2's were built by expendable
slave labour, whereas the forced labour used in aircraft production
was treated relatively benignly.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

"Eunometic" > wrote in message
...
> On Oct 9, 8:08 am, Bert > wrote:
>> >
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Werner Von Braun the Father of Rocket Science
>>
>> You've read his biography, haven't you?
>>
>> "I Aim For the Stars (but sometimes I hit London)"

> Of course this comes from the lyrics of a left wing jewish satirist
> pushing his own agenda.

Seems the truth hurts, especially when it is made into jokes.

The Mel Brooks approach strikes again.

> Do you think he might have satirised Jewish Partisans who on more than
> one occaision slaughtered entire Polish villages: atrocities several
> times worse than Oradour-sur-Glane.
> The murderous Bielski brothers are celebrated as heroes but were war
> criminals.

> http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2011/10/jewish-partisan-warfare-during-wwii/

Ah yes a "white culture" web site. Eunometic keeps using
such sites as sources.

Shall we say a more reliable source is required?

And yes, partisan war is rather dirty.

And of course the Germans managed to destroy thousands of
villages, so that was the template.

> The bombardment of London by the V2 was morally the same as 1942
> Bomber Commands area bombardment and dehousing campaign directed
> against residential areas of cities often of negligible strategic
> value such as Rostok or Lubek.

It is well established the V-2s were doing attacks similar to manned
bombers and the WWII bombers were building on the WWI attempts
at strategic bombing. However Eunometic cannot actually compare
like with like, the German areas have to be declared as negligible,
rather than real places with real industry.

Ah yes, the Eunometic definition of negligible. Ignore Lubeck was
a port with ship building and had a chemical industry. The pre war
population was about 130,000.

Raid of 28/29 March 1942, 400 tons of bombs, about two thirds
incendiary, aimed at the centre of the old city, narrow streets, half
timbered construction. Either 312 or 320 people killed, 1,425
buildings destroyed, 1,976 seriously damaged, 8,411 lightly
damaged, about two thirds the city's buildings. In the destroyed
or seriously damaged category were some outstanding cultural
structures and 256 industrial or commercial ones. The Draeger
work building, making oxygen equipment for U-boats was one
of the destroyed.

In Bomber Command's terms 130 acres of built up area, 30%
of the city area, destroyed.

An agreement to use the port for Red Cross supplies spared it
any further large raids.

Think He111, think Heinkel, think Rostock. Think 1,337 He111
in 1942, and another 1,408 in 1943. Think only about 25% of
Germany's twin engined bomber production.

Rostock/Warnemunde, pre war population about 93,500.
A Baltic port. Four RAF raids in the April 1942 sequence.

23/24 April, 143 bombers to carry out a Lubeck type raid,
plus 18 to the Heinkel factory.

24/25 April, 91 bombers to the town, 34 to the Heinkel factory.

25/26 April, 110 bombers to the town, 18 to the Heinkel factory.
This raid finally did hit the Heinkel works.

26/27 April, 106 or 109 bombers, split almost evenly between
the town and the Heinkel factory. The RAF Official History
describes this raid as a masterpiece.

The overall results of the four raids were 204 killed, 89 injured,
low because much of the population made the sensible decision
to leave early in the raid sequence. Some 1,765 buildings
destroyed, 513 seriously damaged. Bomber Command's
assessment 130 acres destroyed, about 60% of the city area.

The Heinkel program suffered the loss of approximately one
months production, main assembly hall severely damaged, some
50 aircraft in states from completed to being built were destroyed
or severely damaged.

The Niedersachsen air raid area reported the majority of the
factories in its area were more or less severely damaged.

By the way the 1/2 October 1942 raid hit the Arado works at
Rostock.

These details have been given before, Eunometic could look them
up but instead simply writes fiction about them.

The Germans used terror raid for the first time in describing the
results. This seems to stem more from the fact the target was
hit four nights in a row.

If the above two port towns have not enough industry and so
should not be heavily attacked then places like Liverpool should
not have been heavily attacked.

The 8th Air Force first bombed Rostock as part of "Big Week"
in February 1944, 138 bombers credited with attacking the port
and industrial area. Four days later on the 24th it was 236
bombers on the same targets.

There were further raids in April and August 1944. Interesting
effort if the place had such little industry.

> The accuracy of H2S 3cm was atrocious: about 5km.

The USSBS noted in total could cover for 4 months of 1944
the 8th Air Force using H2X managed to put around 40%
of bombs dropped within 3 miles of the target. H2X was
used in conditions ranging from 4/10 to total cloud cover,
in 4 or 5/10 cloud it was 48.5% of bombs within 1 mile
of the target, 89.1% within 3 miles.

As usual with Eunometic the non German devices are measured
at their worst, and this is announced as normal accuracy.

The V-2 accuracy against London was around 12 km, half due
to the deception, so V-2 accuracy to use the language above
was worse than atrocious. That is unacceptable to Eunometic
so stand by for the E-2.

> A system working like Oboe but using transmitters orbiting
> at height to extend the range of Oboe was never proceded with despite
> its simpliticity.

Actually it was but at the experimental stage, H2S was preferred
in 1943 and early 1944, given the limits on the number of aircraft
that could be Oboe controlled at one time.

> The V2's guidance system had not been perfected however the “voll-
> zirkel” or “wireless canon barrel” beam riding system was to have an
> accuracy of 0.05 degrees with engine velocity cut-off controlled by
> both Doppler speed and down range distance for a theoretical accuracy
> of better than 500m (excluding wind drift on re-entry)

Now we are looking at the E-2, not to be confused with the WWII V-2.
The E-2 has a precision modern militaries want, but cannot achieve since
non Germans are doing the development. The E(Eunometic)-2 has
various guidance systems not used, or paper projects and their accuracy
is reported in the most optimistic manner, to put it mildly.

> The system ran into difficulties with ground wave interference for the
> elevation portion of the guidance and had to be re-engineered for
> higher frequencies and compensating techniques and so missed the war.

The E-2 is another Eunometic war winning wonder weapon,
available sooner but usually much later after the war has finished.
But it would have won the war if it had been there, or at the
very least been decades ahead of anything non German.

> It required on 4000 hours to build the V2 missile, much less than a
> single engined fighter with engine such as an Me 109.

Actually the 4,000 man hours seems to be an incomplete V-2, which
is being compared to a complete fighter. And in any case these
figures change as mass production cuts costs.

Meantime the V-2 when fired came in at around 13 tons, of which
1 ton was warhead.

> The winged version, the A9 (or A4b) could have attacked Britain from
> bases in Germany with an accuracy of 180m.

2 winged V-2 versions launched, 1 failed, the other shed part of its wings
on re-entry. And yes the 180 metres is an E-2, not a V-2.

> Werener von Braun accelerated mankinds expansion into space by about
> 10 years, (so did Albert Speer who supplied the funds)

Apparently it was all one man, not a major research team, plus various
forced workers at Peenemunde and other sites.

> von Braun when he secured German Army funding for the missile promised
> to produce a missile with an absolute accuracy of 300m. He just
> missed out, by a few months, on achieving close to that as he was
> forced to place the V2 in production ahead of schedule.

You see the average accuracy of the V-2 was more like 20 times
the 300 metre figure, hence the need to announce do not look at the
results, look at what optimistic theory says would be the next results.

It looks like V-2 accuracy against London was 12 km as the overall
result, 6 km if you factor out the deception program.

The remarkable fact is if the accuracy of the (E)V-2 was as good as
claimed then with Antwerp being the target of 1,610 V2s and 8,696
V1s then the port should not have even existed in 1945.

After all Antwerp spent most of that time on the front line, a point
blank target. The US army alone was moving around half a
million tons of cargo through the port each month, expanding as
the war went on.

And Eunometic has a flexible definition of time, German advances
take minimal E time, and turn out even better. Non German
advances are a contradiction in terms, time does not really come
into it.

> He was
> building an accurate precise weapon whose collateral damage would have
> been less than most WW2 level bombers.

This is of course the E-2, versus the 8th Air Force flying in total
cloud cover. It should not be confused with the V-2 and WWII
bomber performance.

> Like many men he was compelled
> to compromise; he certainly was not the first to mack such a choice
> but rather one of the last.

My but such rhetoric, you sort of wonder how much individual
compromise went into the Soviet weapons programs and the
ongoing North Korean etc. ones.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

[Sky Rider]

On Mon, 10 Oct 2011 09:23:46 +0100, Keith Willshaw wrote:

> Eunometic wrote:
>> On Oct 9, 8:08 am, Bert > wrote:
>>>
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Werner Von Braun the Father of Rocket Science
>>>
>>> You've read his biography, haven't you?
>>>
>>> "I Aim For the Stars (but sometimes I hit London)"
>>
>> Of course this comes from the lyrics of a left wing jewish satirist
>> pushing his own agenda.
>>
>> Do you think he might have satirised Jewish Partisans who on more than
>> one occaision slaughtered entire Polish villages: atrocities several
>> times worse than Oradour-sur-Glane.
>> The murderous Bielski brothers are celebrated as heroes but were war
>> criminals.
>
> Reality check

> Unless you are here to suck my cock, get the **** out of MY newsgroup.

*YOUR* newsgroups?

[Tom[_15_]]

On Mon, 10 Oct 2011 06:09:53 -0700 (PDT), Matt wrote:

> Complex is a good description of von Braun. Read the definitive
> biograply, Michael Neufeld's Werhner von Braun: Dreamer of Space,
> Engineer of War. I don't mean to excuse anything he did or was
> involved in. I'm just saying Neufeld's exhaustively researched bio
> goes into depth I could barely touch on in my 2004 book The First
> Space Race.

Think of what is known about WvB. Then think about the deep secret
negotiations that must have embroiled his life. We will never know the
true WvB.

> The Nazi secret government - UFO thing... hmmm.. Don't you think it
> might mean a little more if there was a fractions of a shred of
> evidence besides attributed statements floating on the Web?

I believe there is.

[Yrrah]

On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 16:46:37 -0500, Dan wrote:

> So Sturmbannführer von Braun had nothing better to do in the last 6
> months before his death to babble such nonsense? He became a good Nazi
> 16 June 1977.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired Nazi homosexual

Cite please and I don't mean you're penchant for sucking German
wienerschitzels.

[Tom[_15_]]

On Mon, 10 Oct 2011 13:00:08 -0400, Sky Rider wrote:

> On Mon, 10 Oct 2011 09:23:46 +0100, Keith Willshaw wrote:
>
>> Eunometic wrote:
>>> On Oct 9, 8:08 am, Bert > wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Werner Von Braun the Father of Rocket Science
>>>>
>>>> You've read his biography, haven't you?
>>>>
>>>> "I Aim For the Stars (but sometimes I hit London)"
>>>
>>> Of course this comes from the lyrics of a left wing jewish satirist
>>> pushing his own agenda.
>>>
>>> Do you think he might have satirised Jewish Partisans who on more than
>>> one occaision slaughtered entire Polish villages: atrocities several
>>> times worse than Oradour-sur-Glane.
>>> The murderous Bielski brothers are celebrated as heroes but were war
>>> criminals.
>>
>> Reality check
>
>> Unless you are here to suck my cock, get the **** out of MY newsgroup.
>
> *YOUR* newsgroups?

Speaking of a "reality check"...

[Eunometic]

SNIP hype.
> As for entire Polish villages being destroyed we know
> who actually did that. Bottom line it was kill Nazis
> or die, they chose to kill Nazis.
>

They, Jewish partisans (or communist partisans mostly the same thing)
killed White Polish Catholic villagers who weren't exactly Nazi or pro-
German. It was murder, it was a war crime. It was racial.

It wasn't the Nazi's that did that.

[Dan[_15_]]

On 10/10/2011 10:59 PM, Eunometic wrote:
> SNIP hype.
>> As for entire Polish villages being destroyed we know
>> who actually did that. Bottom line it was kill Nazis
>> or die, they chose to kill Nazis.
>>
>
> They, Jewish partisans (or communist partisans mostly the same thing)
> killed White Polish Catholic villagers who weren't exactly Nazi or pro-
> German. It was murder, it was a war crime. It was racial.
>
> It wasn't the Nazi's that did that.

Does that excuse all the slaughter of unarmed civilians and Soviet
POW? I know you are anti Semitic, but do try to keep things in perspective.

Partisan wars are similar to civil wars in the sense of neigbours
killing neighbours. Excesses occur on all sides. I am not excusing what
Jewish partisans did, but they did have most of the local population,
the Nazis and pro Soviet partisans determined to wipe them out. What
would YOU have done in their situation?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Don in Vegas and Memphis!]

Wait, don't tell me, the Aliens are from Uranus, right?

Don

[Keith Willshaw[_3_]]

Eunometic wrote:
> On Oct 11, 1:19 am, "Geoffrey Sinclair" >
> wrote:
>> "Eunometic" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>>> On Oct 9, 8:08 am, Bert > wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Werner Von Braun the Father of Rocket Science
>>
>>>> You've read his biography, haven't you?
>>
>>>> "I Aim For the Stars (but sometimes I hit London)"
>>> Of course this comes from the lyrics of a left wing jewish satirist
>>> pushing his own agenda.
>>
>> Seems the truth hurts, especially when it is made into jokes.
> snip
>
>
> There is no truth here by you or Lehrer, only a double standard.
>
> The core POINT is this: the allies bombed when they could not
> possibly achieve any accuracy
> because they did not develop the technical means to do so similarly
> von Braun's missile was
> forced into use before it was ready and achchieved high accuracy.
>
> The allies had the possibillity to develop technical means but it
> seems the
> dehousing and area bombardment policy meant disinterest.
>

Which rather ignores the fact that they DID develop the technical
means in the form of Oboe, Gee, H2S, Loran etc while the
Germans kept right on area bombing.

>
>
> The bulk of Bomber commands night time raids were conducted by H2S at
> night, irrespective of whether it was the 9cm version or
> the 3cm version the system had Circular Error probables of 5 miles.
>
> Worse than the early V2.
>

Well no , 5 miles was BEFORE the technical aids were developed.


> At certain periodes of the year the by far the bulk of the USAAF's
> raids were
> conducted under cloud cover and demonstrated similarly poor levels of
> accuracy.
>
> Worse than the early V2.
>

Well no, the Americans could actually hit a city which the V-2
struggled to manage.

> Even under 50% clould cover the accuracy of daylight bombardment was
> not spectactular.
>
> Morover von Braun was designing a system with high accuracy.
>
> So what do we have? Perhaps 50% of RAF bomber commands raids and
> perhaps 25% of the 8th airforce with worse accuracy than the V2?
>

Only in your mind

> The spectactular accuracies selectively quoted from the USSBS are for
> ideal conditions.
>
>
> The V2 on the other hand was technically CLOSE to achieving a
> consistant 1km CEP: 5-7 times more accurate than H2S/H2X
> in darkness and 100% cloud cover, creating 25-49 times less collateral
> damage area.
>

It actually achieved 12 km

> It would have been considerably more accurate than H2X in partial
> cloud cover.
>
> And hardly worse than the spread of collateral damage caused by
> formation bombing.
>

The V-2 was intended to cause collateral damage, its aiming point
was the city centre, the German government boasted that it was
intended to cause terror.

Keith


..

[Keith Willshaw[_3_]]

On Tue, 11 Oct 2011 07:30:22 -0700 (PDT), Don in Vegas and Memphis!
wrote:

> Wait, don't tell me, the Aliens are from Uranus, right?
>
> Don

Spread the, Let's see.

Keith

[Eunometic]

On Oct 13, 9:36 am, "Keith Willshaw" > wrote:

>
> > The allies had the possibillity to develop technical means but it
> > seems the dehousing and area bombardment policy meant disinterest.
>
> Which rather ignores the fact that they DID develop the technical
> means in the form of Oboe, Gee, H2S, Loran etc while the
> Germans kept right on area bombing.

The Germans had the technical means to blind bomb as well,
Sonnenschein a hyperbolic navigation system, Bernhard-Bernhardine
(virtually unjammable),
EGON and the Oboe like EGON-II as well as "Zyklops" a late war beam
riding system. All saw considerable use.

EGON was to be replaced by FuG 226 Neuling since EGON was simply a
beefed up version of the Luftwaffe's standard IFF and by the end of
the war compromised.

H2S was mostly useless untill post war 1.5cm versions incorporating
more advanced signal processing.

Where the allies failed was in the development of an accurate system
that works "over the horrison".

Such a system used Oboe like contollers in orbiting aircraft but was
never pushed: area bombardment was apparently to desirable.

For the Germans over the horison blind attacks would have used a
missile like the A4b with an postion update to an inertial guidance
system a minute before impact when the missile was still not below
line of sight.



>
>
>
> > The bulk of Bomber commands night time raids were conducted by H2S at
> > night, irrespective of whether it was the 9cm version or
> > the 3cm version the system had Circular Error probables of 5 miles.
>
> > Worse than the early V2.
>
> Well no , 5 miles was BEFORE the technical aids were developed.


5 miles was what H2X achieved. 9cm H2S was worse.

Read the results of the oxford experiment

The Oxford experiment showed that H2X bombing:


"Forty-two percent of the
bombs had fallen more than
five miles from this point."


http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/radar/oxford-experiment-h2x-radar-bombing-26720.html

The Combat Accuracy of H2X Bombing
By the time the Oxford experiment was
completed, the momentum of the war was
such that the Eighth Air Force sent missions
against Germany using Gee-H, Micro-
H, or H2X blind bombing equipment,
as appropriate and necessary, on every day
on which it could fly its airplanes. The last
big report prepared by the bombing accuracy
subsection covered all bombing from
the period September 1 to December 31,
1944; it showed that 58 percent of all
Eighth Air Force bombing for this period
was done with the aid of H2X, and that 35
percent was through 10/10 cloud cover.
Thus, H2X had in fact become the dominant
mode of bombing.

Furthermore, the report showed that,
when the cloud cover was reported as 10/
10, only 0.2 of one percent of the bombs
had fallen within 1,000 feet of the assigned
aiming point, and that 42 percent
had fallen more than five miles from this
point. The 58 percent of the bombs that
fell less than five miles from the aiming
point were distributed uniformly over a
circle of radius five miles [McArthur 1990,
pp. 287-298].

When Lt. Col. Scott and I were invited
to present the findings of this report at a
meeting of the staff officers at the headquarters
of the Second Division, Scott
asked me to do the talking. It was not an
easy assignment to present a report of such
poor accuracy, and Scott was glad to hand
it over to a civilian. Four generals sat in
the front row. I summarized the accuracy
figures in the report; they showed that the
accuracy of visual bombing had shown a
threefold improvement since the beginning
of the war, but that H2X bombing had not
improved during its use by the Eighth Air
Force.

When I had finished, two of the generals
insisted that the Eighth Air Force had
wasted planes, bombs, and men on its
campaign of inaccurate blind bombing, but
the other two supported the policy because
it kept the pressure on the enemy throughout
the period. While they argued, Scott
and I went home. It was not our business
to tell them how to operate the air force


SNIP
>
> > The spectactular accuracies selectively quoted from the USSBS are for
> > ideal conditions.
>
> > The V2 on the other hand was technically CLOSE to achieving a
> > consistant 1km CEP: 5-7 times more accurate than H2S/H2X
> > in darkness and 100% cloud cover, creating 25-49 times less collateral
> > damage area.
>
> It actually achieved 12 km

The dispersion in systematic test shots was 4.5km using inertial boost
phase only guidance.

If the Viktoria-Hawaii beam system was used the cross range dispersion
was halved; one could the CEP went from a 4.5km radious circle to a
4.5km long and 2.25km wide ellipse. (though in reality the CEP was
already elliptical)

The effect of the double cross system (fales impact feedback) degraded
this by 12km.

However if the effect of the double cross system was excluded the CEP
was 6km.

The difference between practice and reality likely amounts to
manufacturing variation control in early missiles.

The CEP of H2X in daylight USAAF usage under cloud cover was 5 miles
(8km)

Worse

The standard way of measuring V2 impacts was with an Ar 234 with
sideways motion picture cameras synchronised to the impact or simply
post stricke 'carter analyssis' An radar and optical based system
based on the V2 telemetry system was being worked upon.

Jet flights over Britain were banned, in order to protect the secret
of the Jumo engines (obviously pointless given autonomous British
advances in this area)



>
>
> The V-2 was intended to cause collateral damage, its aiming point
> was the city centre, the German government boasted that it was
> intended to cause terror.

So was the earlier 'dehousing' and 'area bombardment' campaign
intended to inflect terror which had been promoted to Churchill by
pathalogical racial hater of Germans, the Jew (Lord Cherwell)
Frederick Lindemann. Analysis of Luftwaffe bombing of British towns
subsequently showed that Lindemann;s 'demoralisation' simply wasn't
there.

The V2 was put in production about 9 months before von Brauns team
could sort out the the guidance issues.

A full system would have used either the SG-66 (productionised as the
SG-70 stablised inertial guidance platform instead of the LEV-3 or a
beam riding system capable of 0.05 degree accurcy for a re-entry
accuracy of
better than 500m.

If more accuracy was needed the winged version of the A4b could be
guided to impact or if it was over the horizon guided to within
minutes of impact.

The V1 was also getting a midcourse 'course corrector' guidance system
that worked by trilateration of a single pulse.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

"Eunometic" > wrote in message
...
> On Oct 13, 9:36 am, "Keith Willshaw" > wrote:
>
>>
>> > The allies had the possibillity to develop technical means but it
>> > seems the dehousing and area bombardment policy meant disinterest.
>>
>> Which rather ignores the fact that they DID develop the technical
>> means in the form of Oboe, Gee, H2S, Loran etc while the
>> Germans kept right on area bombing.
>
> The Germans had the technical means to blind bomb as well,
> Sonnenschein a hyperbolic navigation system, Bernhard-Bernhardine
> (virtually unjammable),

Sonnenschein, assuming Eunometic has managed to spell it correctly,
seems to be another vapour ware product.

Virtually unjammable is code for German, not a technical description
and the Bernhard system seems to be used by the fighters, not the
bombers. At half a degree accuracy it seems rather a stretch to call
it a blind bombing system, unless you are into area bombing.

Given how many German bombers were unable to find Coventry in
November 1940 and how many more could not find London in 1944
and the results of the night attacks from 1940 onwards the Luftwaffe
was area bombing quite readily, since Warsaw in fact.

Think of the Eunometic text as follows, the allies had Oboe, therefore
they could not have area bombed, and actual results are not to be
counted.

> EGON and the Oboe like EGON-II as well as "Zyklops" a late war beam
> riding system. All saw considerable use.

In case people are wondering EGON seems to have seen use for
fighter control, very little to none for bomber control. The second
version and Zyklops are the usual Eunometic flee to another
wonder device when the first one is shown not to match the
Eunometic specifications. Yet another wonder device that seems
to be rather rare and rather late.

http://www.gyges.dk/II%20JK%20spring%201945%202.htm

And not a range finding beam either.

"Considerable use" is Eunometic speak for a code name was
allocated.

> EGON was to be replaced by FuG 226 Neuling since EGON was simply a
> beefed up version of the Luftwaffe's standard IFF and by the end of
> the war compromised.

Yes once again the war winning wonder weapon available some
time post war, and the standard German IFF was compromised
from mid war, after the allies were able to examine systems in
Luftwaffe aircraft that were captured or shot down, after the
Germans had managed to come up with a standard set. No
surprise there.

By the way FuG 226 had not got beyond a few test sets by the time
German surrendered. This counts in Eunometic terms, allied systems
under test do not count. It conflicts with the need to reel out a long list
of systems the Germans are supposed to have used, a list that has to
be much longer than the allies, and of course of much better devices.

> H2S was mostly useless untill post war 1.5cm versions incorporating
> more advanced signal processing.

Mostly useless is a Eunometic term for not German.

> Where the allies failed was in the development of an accurate system
> that works "over the horrison".
>
> Such a system used Oboe like contollers in orbiting aircraft but was
> never pushed: area bombardment was apparently to desirable.

By the way anyone else noted how Eunometic announces the allies
did not have a system then says they did? You see the idea is to
announce the conclusion, the allies and area bombing, then back
fill the facts to fit.

Note after September 1944 the allies had Oboe stations on the
German border, which covered the area Bomber Command was
normally after. March to the end of September 1944 Bomber
Command was doing a lot of attacks in France in support of the
invasion. In 1943 there was rather a lack of Mosquitoes and
the RAF did not want to put Oboe into heavy bombers.

> For the Germans over the horison blind attacks would have used a
> missile like the A4b with an postion update to an inertial guidance
> system a minute before impact when the missile was still not below
> line of sight.

Ah yes, the Germans never deployed an over the horizon system
but hey, they are allowed to dream of it so that counts. The V-2
above was supposed to be in line of sight, hardly over the horizon
but people must remember Eunometic definitions apply. The winged
V-2 was of course a long way from production as was the wonder
inertial guidance system, wonder what this guidance system will be
called.

At 200 nautical miles and a ground antenna 100 feet high it looks like
the V-2 would need to be falling at around 23,000 feet per minute to
impact a minute later. At 400 miles it is more like 100,000 feet per
minute.

>> > The bulk of Bomber commands night time raids were conducted by H2S at
>> > night, irrespective of whether it was the 9cm version or
>> > the 3cm version the system had Circular Error probables of 5 miles.
>>
>> > Worse than the early V2.
>>
>> Well no , 5 miles was BEFORE the technical aids were developed.
>
> 5 miles was what H2X achieved. 9cm H2S was worse.

No.

> Read the results of the oxford experiment

People have, hence why they know Eunometic cannot handle the truth.

> The Oxford experiment showed that H2X bombing:
>
> "Forty-two percent of the
> bombs had fallen more than
> five miles from this point."

Dear Eunometic, the Oxford Experiment is quoting the USSBS
bombing accuracy report, and the above quote is the results
for total cloud cover, where all you can see is clouds.

People have been pointing out the difference between the above
quote and the actual results, which depended on the cloud cover,
also that the accuracy figures are for the last 4 months in 1944,
not the entire campaign.

But of course Eunometic does not want to cope with reality
so the idea is to simply announce the results for total cloud
cover and claim it is for all attacks.

> http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/radar/oxford-experiment-h2x-radar-bombing-26720.html

>> > The spectactular accuracies selectively quoted from the USSBS are for
>> > ideal conditions.
>>
>> > The V2 on the other hand was technically CLOSE to achieving a
>> > consistant 1km CEP: 5-7 times more accurate than H2S/H2X
>> > in darkness and 100% cloud cover, creating 25-49 times less collateral
>> > damage area.
>>
>> It actually achieved 12 km
>
> The dispersion in systematic test shots was 4.5km using inertial boost
> phase only guidance.

You see the idea here is to announce the Eunometic version of good
test results for the V-2 and ignore the actual combat performance.
Note there is zero attempt to use good test performance for H2X,
that would be too much like compared with like for Eunometic.
Let alone H2X in combat conditions with say 4/10 cloud.

> If the Viktoria-Hawaii beam system was used the cross range dispersion
> was halved; one could the CEP went from a 4.5km radious circle to a
> 4.5km long and 2.25km wide ellipse. (though in reality the CEP was
> already elliptical)

Again this seems to be more theory than reality and it seems Eunometic
is confusing the various versions of this system, yes yet another V-2
guidance system, this time with several versions. The least accurate
version was the one used in WWII.

Eunometic collects used and unused German guidance systems, then
enhances them as well as making them available in WWII. Collecting
belly button lint proved to much of an intellectual challenge. Hence
all the imaginary devices and/or performance.

> The effect of the double cross system (fales impact feedback) degraded
> this by 12km.

Actually it degraded things from around 6 to 12 km.

> However if the effect of the double cross system was excluded the CEP
> was 6km.
>
> The difference between practice and reality likely amounts to
> manufacturing variation control in early missiles.

It is quite amazing how the real results for the Germans are
always excused and of course we are to assume as the slave
labourers making the missiles were worked to death manufacturing
quality would go up. When the quality of German aviation products
were all going down.

> The CEP of H2X in daylight USAAF usage under cloud cover was 5 miles
> (8km)
>
> Worse

Actually no, as has been stated many times since Eunometic is only
quoting the worst USAAF results, that is total cloud cover.

Think of it this way around 10% of V-2s simply vanished and others
came down offshore when fired against England. Now calculate the
error for these shots, after all that is 10+% of firings, announce this is
the true V-2 accuracy, which would be running into the hundreds of
km and you have the Eunometic version of accuracy, but applied to
the V-2, not the USAAF.

> The standard way of measuring V2 impacts was with an Ar 234 with
> sideways motion picture cameras synchronised to the impact or simply
> post stricke 'carter analyssis' An radar and optical based system
> based on the V2 telemetry system was being worked upon.

In case people are wondering the Ar234 flights seem to be rather
lacking and "worked on" includes having pencil marks on napkins.

Antwerp was a major target for the V-2, and effectively on the
front line. The US Army alone was moving 500,000 tons of
cargo through the port a month, increasing. Hence why it is easy
to see the gap between Eunometic and reality.

> Jet flights over Britain were banned, in order to protect the secret
> of the Jumo engines (obviously pointless given autonomous British
> advances in this area)

In case people are wondering some Me262s did run flights over
England as did some Ar234. The reconnaissance photographs
brought back on one case helped the V-1 deception.

Normally Eunometic boasts about these not being intercepted.

>> The V-2 was intended to cause collateral damage, its aiming point
>> was the city centre, the German government boasted that it was
>> intended to cause terror.
>
> So was the earlier 'dehousing' and 'area bombardment' campaign

Done by the Luftwaffe against England and others, hence the RAF
felt it had no barriers when it came to bombing Germany.

> intended to inflect terror which had been promoted to Churchill by
> pathalogical racial hater of Germans, the Jew (Lord Cherwell)
> Frederick Lindemann.

In case people are wondering Lindemann was born in Baden-Baden
in Germany, son of a German who had become a British citizen and
an American mother. Part of his schooling was in Darmstadt and
the University of Berlin where he received his PhD.

Hence why Eunometic hates him so much, in Eunometic eyes
Lindemann is a traitor. As for his religion it is notable how much
Eunometic thinks it matters but whether he actually practiced the
religion is another matter (Nazis of course do not care about
whether a person worshipped, only if one of their grandparents
did). There are some claims that Lindemann hated Nazi Germany.
Eunometic tends to drop the Nazis from German history. Of course
the ideology is reinstated in Eunometic's own mimicry of Nazi
terms, hence "racial" and "the Jew"

> Analysis of Luftwaffe bombing of British towns
> subsequently showed that Lindemann;s 'demoralisation' simply wasn't
> there.

No, only the effects that showed infrastructure loss usually cost more
production than factory damage.

> The V2 was put in production about 9 months before von Brauns team
> could sort out the the guidance issues.

By the way the V-2 was in combat for around 8 months before the
end of the war. The 9 months claim seems to be part of the attempt
to paint the V-2 team as really peaceful.

And as usual for Eunometic trying to build better German guidance
systems counts as if it was in mass use.

> A full system would have used either the SG-66 (productionised as the
> SG-70 stablised inertial guidance platform instead of the LEV-3 or a
> beam riding system capable of 0.05 degree accurcy for a re-entry
> accuracy of better than 500m.

Ah yes, once again we flee towards another V-2 guidance system,
or systems, with of course wonder performance.

Productionised is Eunometic code for some hardware was built
and tested.

> If more accuracy was needed the winged version of the A4b could be
> guided to impact or if it was over the horizon guided to within
> minutes of impact.

You see the idea here is to not only create a ready to go V-2 that
was actually nowhere near production but add guidance systems
that were further behind while giving them enhanced accuracy.

> The V1 was also getting a midcourse 'course corrector' guidance system
> that worked by trilateration of a single pulse.

Yes folks, wonder guidance systems all round. Not used, which is
why Eunometic loves them, they can be claimed to be wonder and
of course all set to enter mass production now, as long as you define
now as sometime within the next decade.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.