Re: Chinese fighter jet crashes at air show

[Sam]

On Fri, 14 Oct 2011 21:51:22 -0400, vaughn wrote:

> I've heard that claim in regards to several airshow accidents and I seldom
> believe it. If a plane is out of control, you simply can't control it, so
> therefore you can't control where it crashes. From the tiny bit of video I saw,
> that plane appeared far beyond any control from the pilot. I concede that in
> cases of engine failure or fire there may be room for some pilot heroics.

Concur. OOC is, by definition, NIC of the PIC.

> Airshows are designed to keep the aircraft's vectors parallel to, or away from
> the crowd. That's done for a good reason! It means that any crash should miss
> the crowd. The recent Reno accident shows what can happen when you have vectors
> towards the crowd.. .

Concur and do not concur. Reno was a race (not an AS) however an
argument can be made that vectors could be arranged with a greater
degree of safety.

> I have witnessed two airshow accidents. Both happened so quickly and so close
> to the ground that the pilot couldn't possible have chosen his point of impact.
> (One was a loop that was apparently started too close to the ground. The
> pullout point ended up slightly below ground....fatal. The other was a Cri-Cri
> that lost an engine and then directional control on takeoff. It nearly ended up
> in the crowd.)

We simply do not need races and shows to be less vigilant or less
truthful. I would hope that literary incompetence and not determined
misdirection by the Chinese involved can be blamed in this particular
case.

[Ray O'Hara[_3_]]

"Sam" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 14 Oct 2011 21:51:22 -0400, vaughn wrote:
>
>> I've heard that claim in regards to several airshow accidents and I
>> seldom
>> believe it. If a plane is out of control, you simply can't control it,
>> so
>> therefore you can't control where it crashes. From the tiny bit of video
>> I saw,
>> that plane appeared far beyond any control from the pilot. I concede
>> that in
>> cases of engine failure or fire there may be room for some pilot heroics.
>
> Concur. OOC is, by definition, NIC of the PIC.
>

engine failure doesn't mean totally out of control.

[Sam]

On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 08:50:38 -0400, Ray O'Hara wrote:

> "Sam" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Fri, 14 Oct 2011 21:51:22 -0400, vaughn wrote:
>>
>>> I've heard that claim in regards to several airshow accidents and I
>>> seldom
>>> believe it. If a plane is out of control, you simply can't control it,
>>> so
>>> therefore you can't control where it crashes. From the tiny bit of video
>>> I saw,
>>> that plane appeared far beyond any control from the pilot. I concede
>>> that in
>>> cases of engine failure or fire there may be room for some pilot heroics.
>>
>> Concur. OOC is, by definition, NIC of the PIC.
>>
>
> engine failure doesn't mean totally out of control.

Reductio ad absurdum and the slippery slope? Sir, you have a
refutation of an argument by carrying that argument to its logical
end and so reducing it to an absurd conclusion.

Or not. :)

[vaughn[_3_]]

"Ray O'Hara" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Sam" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Fri, 14 Oct 2011 21:51:22 -0400, vaughn wrote:
>>
>>> I've heard that claim in regards to several airshow accidents and I seldom
>>> believe it. If a plane is out of control, you simply can't control it, so
>>> therefore you can't control where it crashes. From the tiny bit of video I
>>> saw,
>>> that plane appeared far beyond any control from the pilot. I concede that
>>> in
>>> cases of engine failure or fire there may be room for some pilot heroics.
>>
>> Concur. OOC is, by definition, NIC of the PIC.
>>
>
> engine failure doesn't mean totally out of control.

As a Commercial glider pilot, I can only agree. But I already implied as much
in my earlier post, and even included in-flight fire.

Vaughn

[Ray O'Hara[_3_]]

"vaughn" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ray O'Hara" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Sam" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Fri, 14 Oct 2011 21:51:22 -0400, vaughn wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've heard that claim in regards to several airshow accidents and I
>>>> seldom
>>>> believe it. If a plane is out of control, you simply can't control it,
>>>> so
>>>> therefore you can't control where it crashes. From the tiny bit of
>>>> video I saw,
>>>> that plane appeared far beyond any control from the pilot. I concede
>>>> that in
>>>> cases of engine failure or fire there may be room for some pilot
>>>> heroics.
>>>
>>> Concur. OOC is, by definition, NIC of the PIC.
>>>
>>
>> engine failure doesn't mean totally out of control.
>
> As a Commercial glider pilot, I can only agree. But I already implied as
> much in my earlier post, and even included in-flight fire.
>
> Vaughn
>

it seems to me they should make every pilot first get a glider pilots
license and really learn to fly.
at an air show a long time ago I watched Bob Hoover take off and once at
altitude shut his engines of and then do an areobatic show for a half hour
and finally land stopping at a coin he had placed on the runway before
taking off.
His point as he said in his speech to the crowd was that a crash was rarely
the planes fault but usually was the pilots.

I onlt have been in a glider once, I took a four hour glider ride near
Franconia Notch in the White Mts, it was amazing , so graceful and peaceful.
it's something I recommend everybody do.

[Dan[_12_]]

On 10/15/2011 9:11 PM, Ray O'Hara wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Ray > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> On Fri, 14 Oct 2011 21:51:22 -0400, vaughn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I've heard that claim in regards to several airshow accidents and I
>>>>> seldom
>>>>> believe it. If a plane is out of control, you simply can't control it,
>>>>> so
>>>>> therefore you can't control where it crashes. From the tiny bit of
>>>>> video I saw,
>>>>> that plane appeared far beyond any control from the pilot. I concede
>>>>> that in
>>>>> cases of engine failure or fire there may be room for some pilot
>>>>> heroics.
>>>>
>>>> Concur. OOC is, by definition, NIC of the PIC.
>>>>
>>>
>>> engine failure doesn't mean totally out of control.
>>
>> As a Commercial glider pilot, I can only agree. But I already implied as
>> much in my earlier post, and even included in-flight fire.
>>
>> Vaughn
>>
>
> it seems to me they should make every pilot first get a glider pilots
> license and really learn to fly.
> at an air show a long time ago I watched Bob Hoover take off and once at
> altitude shut his engines of and then do an areobatic show for a half hour
> and finally land stopping at a coin he had placed on the runway before
> taking off.
> His point as he said in his speech to the crowd was that a crash was rarely
> the planes fault but usually was the pilots.
>
> I onlt have been in a glider once, I took a four hour glider ride near
> Franconia Notch in the White Mts, it was amazing , so graceful and peaceful.
> it's something I recommend everybody do.
>
>

What o'haha fails mention is both examples were under good
conditions. When things go bad in a high performance aircraft it
happens fast and usually not under ideal circumstances. In the event of
engine failure flight control rapidly degrades due to lack of hydraulic
pressure.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[george152]

On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 21:51:28 -0500, Dan wrote:

> On 10/15/2011 9:11 PM, Ray O'Hara wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Ray > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> On Fri, 14 Oct 2011 21:51:22 -0400, vaughn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I've heard that claim in regards to several airshow accidents and I
>>>>>> seldom
>>>>>> believe it. If a plane is out of control, you simply can't control it,
>>>>>> so
>>>>>> therefore you can't control where it crashes. From the tiny bit of
>>>>>> video I saw,
>>>>>> that plane appeared far beyond any control from the pilot. I concede
>>>>>> that in
>>>>>> cases of engine failure or fire there may be room for some pilot
>>>>>> heroics.
>>>>>
>>>>> Concur. OOC is, by definition, NIC of the PIC.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> engine failure doesn't mean totally out of control.
>>>
>>> As a Commercial glider pilot, I can only agree. But I already implied as
>>> much in my earlier post, and even included in-flight fire.
>>>
>>> Vaughn
>>>
>>
>> it seems to me they should make every pilot first get a glider pilots
>> license and really learn to fly.
>> at an air show a long time ago I watched Bob Hoover take off and once at
>> altitude shut his engines of and then do an areobatic show for a half hour
>> and finally land stopping at a coin he had placed on the runway before
>> taking off.
>> His point as he said in his speech to the crowd was that a crash was rarely
>> the planes fault but usually was the pilots.
>>
>> I onlt have been in a glider once, I took a four hour glider ride near
>> Franconia Notch in the White Mts, it was amazing , so graceful and peaceful.
>> it's something I recommend everybody do.
>>
>>
>
> What o'haha fails mention is both examples were under good
> conditions. When things go bad in a high performance aircraft it
> happens fast and usually not under ideal circumstances. In the event of
> engine failure flight control rapidly degrades due to lack of hydraulic
> pressure.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

hes a kook a kookine kook it el ya a kookie kook kook

[Ray O'Hara[_3_]]

"Dan" > wrote in message
...
> On 10/15/2011 9:11 PM, Ray O'Hara wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Ray > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> On Fri, 14 Oct 2011 21:51:22 -0400, vaughn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I've heard that claim in regards to several airshow accidents and I
>>>>>> seldom
>>>>>> believe it. If a plane is out of control, you simply can't control
>>>>>> it,
>>>>>> so
>>>>>> therefore you can't control where it crashes. From the tiny bit of
>>>>>> video I saw,
>>>>>> that plane appeared far beyond any control from the pilot. I
>>>>>> concede
>>>>>> that in
>>>>>> cases of engine failure or fire there may be room for some pilot
>>>>>> heroics.
>>>>>
>>>>> Concur. OOC is, by definition, NIC of the PIC.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> engine failure doesn't mean totally out of control.
>>>
>>> As a Commercial glider pilot, I can only agree. But I already implied
>>> as
>>> much in my earlier post, and even included in-flight fire.
>>>
>>> Vaughn
>>>
>>
>> it seems to me they should make every pilot first get a glider pilots
>> license and really learn to fly.
>> at an air show a long time ago I watched Bob Hoover take off and once at
>> altitude shut his engines of and then do an areobatic show for a half
>> hour
>> and finally land stopping at a coin he had placed on the runway before
>> taking off.
>> His point as he said in his speech to the crowd was that a crash was
>> rarely
>> the planes fault but usually was the pilots.
>>
>> I onlt have been in a glider once, I took a four hour glider ride near
>> Franconia Notch in the White Mts, it was amazing , so graceful and
>> peaceful.
>> it's something I recommend everybody do.
>>
>>
>
> What o'haha fails mention is both examples were under good conditions.
> When things go bad in a high performance aircraft it happens fast and
> usually not under ideal circumstances. In the event of engine failure
> flight control rapidly degrades due to lack of hydraulic pressure.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

clearly I wasn't talking about high performance aircraft dannyboi.
but you just love to misinterpet anything. **** off

[george152]

On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:24:47 -0400, Ray O'Hara wrote:

> "Dan" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 10/15/2011 9:11 PM, Ray O'Hara wrote:
>>> > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> "Ray > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>> > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> On Fri, 14 Oct 2011 21:51:22 -0400, vaughn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've heard that claim in regards to several airshow accidents and I
>>>>>>> seldom
>>>>>>> believe it. If a plane is out of control, you simply can't control
>>>>>>> it,
>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>> therefore you can't control where it crashes. From the tiny bit of
>>>>>>> video I saw,
>>>>>>> that plane appeared far beyond any control from the pilot. I
>>>>>>> concede
>>>>>>> that in
>>>>>>> cases of engine failure or fire there may be room for some pilot
>>>>>>> heroics.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Concur. OOC is, by definition, NIC of the PIC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> engine failure doesn't mean totally out of control.
>>>>
>>>> As a Commercial glider pilot, I can only agree. But I already implied
>>>> as
>>>> much in my earlier post, and even included in-flight fire.
>>>>
>>>> Vaughn
>>>>
>>>
>>> it seems to me they should make every pilot first get a glider pilots
>>> license and really learn to fly.
>>> at an air show a long time ago I watched Bob Hoover take off and once at
>>> altitude shut his engines of and then do an areobatic show for a half
>>> hour
>>> and finally land stopping at a coin he had placed on the runway before
>>> taking off.
>>> His point as he said in his speech to the crowd was that a crash was
>>> rarely
>>> the planes fault but usually was the pilots.
>>>
>>> I onlt have been in a glider once, I took a four hour glider ride near
>>> Franconia Notch in the White Mts, it was amazing , so graceful and
>>> peaceful.
>>> it's something I recommend everybody do.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> What o'haha fails mention is both examples were under good conditions.
>> When things go bad in a high performance aircraft it happens fast and
>> usually not under ideal circumstances. In the event of engine failure
>> flight control rapidly degrades due to lack of hydraulic pressure.
>>
>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
> clearly I wasn't talking about high performance aircraft dannyboi.
> but you just love to misinterpet anything. **** off

a kook a kookine kook it el ya a kookie kook kook

[george152]

On 17/10/2011 8:32 a.m., george152 wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:24:47 -0400, Ray O'Hara wrote:
>
>> > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On 10/15/2011 9:11 PM, Ray O'Hara wrote:
>>>> > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Ray > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > wrote in message
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> On Fri, 14 Oct 2011 21:51:22 -0400, vaughn wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've heard that claim in regards to several airshow accidents and I
>>>>>>>> seldom
>>>>>>>> believe it. If a plane is out of control, you simply can't control
>>>>>>>> it,
>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>> therefore you can't control where it crashes. From the tiny bit of
>>>>>>>> video I saw,
>>>>>>>> that plane appeared far beyond any control from the pilot. I
>>>>>>>> concede
>>>>>>>> that in
>>>>>>>> cases of engine failure or fire there may be room for some pilot
>>>>>>>> heroics.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Concur. OOC is, by definition, NIC of the PIC.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> engine failure doesn't mean totally out of control.
>>>>>
>>>>> As a Commercial glider pilot, I can only agree. But I already implied
>>>>> as
>>>>> much in my earlier post, and even included in-flight fire.
>>>>>
>>>>> Vaughn
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> it seems to me they should make every pilot first get a glider pilots
>>>> license and really learn to fly.
>>>> at an air show a long time ago I watched Bob Hoover take off and once at
>>>> altitude shut his engines of and then do an areobatic show for a half
>>>> hour
>>>> and finally land stopping at a coin he had placed on the runway before
>>>> taking off.
>>>> His point as he said in his speech to the crowd was that a crash was
>>>> rarely
>>>> the planes fault but usually was the pilots.
>>>>
>>>> I onlt have been in a glider once, I took a four hour glider ride near
>>>> Franconia Notch in the White Mts, it was amazing , so graceful and
>>>> peaceful.
>>>> it's something I recommend everybody do.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> What o'haha fails mention is both examples were under good conditions.
>>> When things go bad in a high performance aircraft it happens fast and
>>> usually not under ideal circumstances. In the event of engine failure
>>> flight control rapidly degrades due to lack of hydraulic pressure.
>>>
>>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>
>> clearly I wasn't talking about high performance aircraft dannyboi.
>> but you just love to misinterpet anything. **** off
>
> a kook a kookine kook it el ya a kookie kook kook

So he has to pretend to be some-one else..What a loser!

[Richard[_11_]]

On Oct 15, 9:11*pm, "Ray O'Hara" > wrote:
> "vaughn" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Ray O'Hara" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> >> "Sam" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>> On Fri, 14 Oct 2011 21:51:22 -0400, vaughn wrote:
>
> >>>> I've heard that claim in regards to several airshow accidents and I
> >>>> seldom
> >>>> believe it. *If a plane is out of control, you simply can't control it,
> >>>> so
> >>>> therefore you can't control where it crashes. *From the tiny bit of
> >>>> video I saw,
> >>>> that plane appeared far beyond any control from the pilot. * *I concede
> >>>> that in
> >>>> cases of engine failure or fire there may be room for some pilot
> >>>> heroics.
>
> >>> Concur. OOC is, by definition, NIC of the PIC.
>
> >> engine failure doesn't mean totally out of control.
>
> > As a Commercial glider pilot, I can only agree. *But I already implied as
> > much in my earlier post, and even included in-flight fire.
>
> > Vaughn
>
> it seems to me they should make every pilot first get a glider pilots
> license and really learn to fly.
> at an air show a long time ago I watched Bob Hoover take off and once at
> altitude shut his engines of and then do an areobatic show for a half hour
> and finally land stopping at a coin he had placed on the runway before
> taking off.
> His point as he said in his speech to the crowd was that a crash was rarely
> the planes fault but usually was the pilots.
>
> I onlt have been in a glider once, I took a four hour glider ride near
> Franconia Notch in the White Mts, it was amazing , so graceful and peaceful.
> it's something I recommend everybody do.

Yeah, glider piloting will come in really handy for a fly by wire
system if the aux power is off line.

Bob Hoover's aerocommander isn't fly by wire.