Who is responsible?

[JJ Sinclair[_2_]]

Who is primarily responsible for my safety?
(choose one)
A. My supervisor
B. My boss
C. My club
D. My FBO
E. Contest Director
F. Contest Manager
G. Rules Committee
H. Soaring Society of America
I. Soaring Safety Foundation
J. FAA
K. NTSB
L. Me

I got to thinking about the safety responsibility issue, so I started
asking a few people. Got several of the above optipns, but the best
one was, "My husband, Jim",

Food for thought,
JJ

[Andy[_1_]]

On Oct 18, 7:57*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:

>but the best one was, "My husband, Jim",

I can say with some certainty that would not have been my answer ;)

Maybe this is really a 2 part question:

1. Who cares most about my safety?
2. Who is responsible for my safety?

The answer may not be the same.

Andy

[Brad[_2_]]

On Oct 18, 9:23*am, Andy > wrote:
> On Oct 18, 7:57*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
>
> >but the best one was, "My husband, Jim",
>
> I can say with some certainty that would not have been my answer ;)
>
> Maybe this is really a 2 part question:
>
> 1. Who cares most about my safety?
> 2. Who is responsible for my safety?
>
> The answer may not be the same.
>
> Andy

Years ago I flew Point of the Mountain in Utah, back in my hang
gliding days. There was this hot pilot doing low lever aero and
general hot-dogging it a few hundred feet above launch. The only
"problem" was he was not wearing a helmet. After he top landed a few
of the locals went over to him and politely but firmly let him know
that helmets were required to fly there. He became very indignant and
somewhat verbally abusive to these guys and basically blew them off. I
was standing nearby after the guys walked away, I could hear him
muttering to himself sarcastically about how "nice" it was that
everyone was so concerned about his safety...........and blah blah
blah............anyways.........I do think he put a helmet on before
taking off again, which was a good thing, as before the day was over
he stuffed it in pretty good, taking out his control bar and whacking
his head pretty good.

My point................pretty sure the concern was not for this dudes
personal safety, but more for the preservation of the hang gliding
site.........pilots breaking site protocols are not
tolerated ........we are all free to choose what we want to do wrp to
safety, but when it jeopardizes our fellow pilots or by-standers, that
is another matter entirely.

Brad

[Jim Logajan]

JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> Who is primarily responsible for my safety?

Are you a private pilot, a student pilot, or a passenger?

[[email protected]]

On Oct 18, 10:57*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> Who is primarily responsible for my safety?
> * * (choose one)
> A. My supervisor
> B. My boss
> C. My club
> D. My FBO
> E. Contest Director
> F. Contest Manager
> G. Rules Committee
> H. Soaring Society of America
> *I. Soaring Safety Foundation
> J. FAA
> K. NTSB
> L. Me
>
> I got to thinking about the safety responsibility issue, so I started
> asking a few people. Got several of the above optipns, but the best
> one was, "My husband, Jim",
>
> Food for thought,
> JJ

I work at Disney World, FL during the winter and their motto "Safety
Begins With Me" is everywhere and it is the only 'real' answer. Other
people can affect your safety while at a gliderport or contest by
permitting others to operate in an unsafe manner, but it all starts
with you. If the gliderport is operated unsafely, then you need to
find another place to fly.
Fred

[Andy[_10_]]

On Oct 18, 7:57*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> Who is primarily responsible for my safety?
> * * (choose one)
> A. My supervisor
> B. My boss
> C. My club
> D. My FBO
> E. Contest Director
> F. Contest Manager
> G. Rules Committee
> H. Soaring Society of America
> *I. Soaring Safety Foundation
> J. FAA
> K. NTSB
> L. Me
>
> I got to thinking about the safety responsibility issue, so I started
> asking a few people. Got several of the above optipns, but the best
> one was, "My husband, Jim",
>
> Food for thought,
> JJ

If it's not me I'm abdicating to people who can't possibly make
decisions for me in the moment when they are most needed. Everything
else is advice, much of it good advice, but advice nevertheless. I
recall a thread a couple of years back regarding accidental incursions
into Class A where some advocated for risking the structural integrity
of the airplane (fly over redline, shift focus away from flying to
twiddle with the radio to report in to controllers, etc.) in order to
comply strictly with FARs. That would be making the FAA more
responsible for my safety than I am. I can think of a similar example
for most every answer on JJ's list except the last one.

Was it a trick question?

9B

[T[_2_]]

On Oct 18, 7:57*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> Who is primarily responsible for my safety?
> * * (choose one)
> A. My supervisor
> B. My boss
> C. My club
> D. My FBO
> E. Contest Director
> F. Contest Manager
> G. Rules Committee
> H. Soaring Society of America
> *I. Soaring Safety Foundation
> J. FAA
> K. NTSB
> L. Me
>
> I got to thinking about the safety responsibility issue, so I started
> asking a few people. Got several of the above optipns, but the best
> one was, "My husband, Jim",
>
> Food for thought,
> JJ

L. We are responsible for ourselves.

Flight manuals, military tech orders, have Notes, Cautions and
Warnings.
Notes are for information,
Cautions are to protect the airplane or components from breakage.
Warnings are to protect people, so you don't kill yourself or others.

We are told most cautions or warnings are there because someone broke
something or someone was hurt or killed.

Local rules at hang glider areas are there to protect the individual,
but also the group. And also to keep the area open to hang gliding.
Too many injuries or deaths that locals have to respond to bring in
outside intervention.

Same thing for glider club rules at airports, public or private. To
protect the individual and the group.
Besides, I'd rather be flying, then spending my time picking up broken
bodies and airplanes, and telling their families how we could not keep
their jerk of a relative safe.

T

[Bob]

On Oct 18, 7:57*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> Who is primarily responsible for my safety?
> * * (choose one)
> A. My supervisor
> B. My boss
> C. My club
> D. My FBO
> E. Contest Director
> F. Contest Manager
> G. Rules Committee
> H. Soaring Society of America
> *I. Soaring Safety Foundation
> J. FAA
> K. NTSB
> L. Me
>
> I got to thinking about the safety responsibility issue, so I started
> asking a few people. Got several of the above optipns, but the best
> one was, "My husband, Jim",
>
> Food for thought,
> JJ

It's all between a person's ears. Neuroscientists look at these sorts
of things. A recent article in Nature Neuroscience and also in
Science News Online, entitled "A mind for optimism - Reality checks
affect judgment more when prospects are rosier", discusses the concept
from scientists' viewpoints, with "data that suggests that brains with
sunny outlooks are particularly immune to undesirable
information" (such as you might get killed in a glider if you have
certain habits... resulting in the" It will never happen to me"
syndrome).

The article can be found at: http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/335187/title/A_mind_for_optimism.
Pilots can debate safety ad nausium, but people are pretty much gonna
do what they are gonna do, whatever we say. Regardless, most of us
will continue to try to change others' habits towards being safer. It
would appear that so far this year too many glider pilots have had too
much optimism.

More food for thought.
Bob T.

[Alexander Georgas[_2_]]

(L) please.

This is why it is called "Pilot In Command"

The other people/agencies/societies are there to protect the community
from the rogue PICs out there and to hopefully give us all an additional
helping hand.

On 18/10/2011 17:57, JJ Sinclair wrote:
> Who is primarily responsible for my safety?
> (choose one)
> A. My supervisor
> B. My boss
> C. My club
> D. My FBO
> E. Contest Director
> F. Contest Manager
> G. Rules Committee
> H. Soaring Society of America
> I. Soaring Safety Foundation
> J. FAA
> K. NTSB
> L. Me
>
> I got to thinking about the safety responsibility issue, so I started
> asking a few people. Got several of the above optipns, but the best
> one was, "My husband, Jim",
>
> Food for thought,
> JJ

[glidergeek]

On Oct 18, 7:57*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> Who is primarily responsible for my safety?
> * * (choose one)
> A. My supervisor
> B. My boss
> C. My club
> D. My FBO
> E. Contest Director
> F. Contest Manager
> G. Rules Committee
> H. Soaring Society of America
> *I. Soaring Safety Foundation
> J. FAA
> K. NTSB
> L. Me
>
> I got to thinking about the safety responsibility issue, so I started
> asking a few people. Got several of the above optipns, but the best
> one was, "My husband, Jim",
>
> Food for thought,
> JJ

Obviously Federal, State and local government and all the voters that
put our government into office since they are telling us how to live,
what to eat, see, feel and breathe. The list goes on.

[Morgan[_2_]]

"If the gliderport is operated unsafely, then you need to
> find another place to fly.
> Fred "

Since many of us operate out of club environments, I would argue that
if a gliderport is operated unsafely, it is your responsibility to try
to change that, not to just walk away. Even a commercial operation
that has unsafe, or perceived unsafe practices is worth trying to help
shore up the safety side of things.

As president of a soaring club, I can say for certain that the most
common statement people make is "You should do X for the club..."
Replace X with whatever you feel like. The point being, people tend
to want someone else to take responsibility for initiating change.

If you want the safety culture to change at your club or operation,
find a way to lead that change. That's really taking responsibility
for your own safety and helping out others.

Morgan

[Squeaky]

On Oct 18, 7:57*am, JJ Sinclair wrote:
JJ

It's all between a person's ears. Neuroscientists look at these sorts
of things. A recent article in Nature Neuroscience and also in
Science News Online, entitled "A mind for optimism - Reality checks
affect judgment more when prospects are rosier", discusses the concept
from scientists' viewpoints, with "data that suggests that brains with
sunny outlooks are particularly immune to undesirable
information" (such as you might get killed in a glider if you have
certain habits... resulting in the" It will never happen to me"
syndrome).

The article can be found at: http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/335187/title/A_mind_for_optimism.
Pilots can debate safety ad nausium, but people are pretty much gonna
do what they are gonna do, whatever we say. Regardless, most of us
will continue to try to change others' habits towards being safer. It
would appear that so far this year too many glider pilots have had too
much optimism.

More food for thought.
Bob T.

Safety...

It is a personal thing. I think it's obvious everyone here knows they are responsible for their own safety. But it took my kids for me to realize something--everyone sees or interprets things differently.

My son, when he was 18 months, liked to go down a very tall slide. So I would walk behind him as he went up the stairs to the top, then go down behind him. He would get a secure death grip with one hand, then move one foot, then new secure death grip with next hand, then next foot, etc. When he got older, same play ground, he'd cross the swinging bridge with both hands on the ropes-one of each side-walking along hand over hand as he moved across--not afraid, just safe.

My Daughter comes along two years later. Same park. She goes up the slide at 18 months too, fast, in my mind heedless of danger, moving hands and feet together, sometimes not even holding on. When older and she gets to the swinging bridge, she runs right across, no hands...

Same issues when they got to driving--Son, cautious, careful, double checks, takes his time. Daughter-zoom, bye Dad.

They're both responsible for their own safety, I raised independent kids. Both assess risk, safety needs differently. I need to add nothing to my Son--sometimes I tell him not to be so careful... My Daughter I have to admonish, warn, make her do the right thing.

Both are optimists, both honor grads and college students 3.0+, both pleasant, both hard workers.

If both were to fly, I'd have no worries about my son. My Daughter? I'd hope someone on the field would also be looking out for her safety. Ensuring she was thorough and removed a tail dolly, or locked the cockpit, having someone else mention maybe she shouldn't try a low pass just yet...

Prior to my kids I would have thought everyone knew they were responsible for their own safety, and would be safety concious. My son is like me. My daughter isn't. She's responsible for her own safety, her risk tolerance and care level is lower than I'd like. So safety does fall on all of us to pitch in as well, to do what we can, to recognize there are people who don't see some things as risky, that don't perceive the potential dangers to themselves of their actions--for whatever reason they are wired differently.

But that's just my nickle on the grass for the rest of you.

[Ralph Jones[_3_]]

On Tue, 18 Oct 2011 07:57:07 -0700 (PDT), JJ Sinclair
> wrote:

>Who is primarily responsible for my safety?
> (choose one)
>A. My supervisor
>B. My boss
>C. My club
>D. My FBO
>E. Contest Director
>F. Contest Manager
>G. Rules Committee
>H. Soaring Society of America
> I. Soaring Safety Foundation
>J. FAA
>K. NTSB
>L. Me
>
The answer to that question is only useful for one thing: Helping your
estate win the lawsuit after you're dead.

The more meaningful question is "Whom do I TRUST with my safety?"

rj

[2G]

On Oct 18, 7:57*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> Who is primarily responsible for my safety?
> * * (choose one)
> A. My supervisor
> B. My boss
> C. My club
> D. My FBO
> E. Contest Director
> F. Contest Manager
> G. Rules Committee
> H. Soaring Society of America
> *I. Soaring Safety Foundation
> J. FAA
> K. NTSB
> L. Me
>
> I got to thinking about the safety responsibility issue, so I started
> asking a few people. Got several of the above optipns, but the best
> one was, "My husband, Jim",
>
> Food for thought,
> JJ

There is one that you left off: the glider manufacturer. And not just
for the original production, but also for on-going airworthiness.

And I actually find myself depending upon the FAA since I installed a
transponder, although I trust the heavy iron TCAS somewhat more.

Tom

[jcarlyle]

It's a trick question - the answer is really "all of the above, plus
others".

The pilot clearly has the majority of the safety responsibility, but
he couldn't be safe no matter how hard he tried unless others
participated as well. As an illustration, consider the designer of the
aircraft, the unknown craftsmen who made it, the test pilot who
explored its flight envelope, the A&P who inspected it, the aerotow
pilot who launched the flight, and the flight instructors that taught
the pilot his skills. JJ's list adds the regulatory side of flight,
people who also contribute to safety no matter how much we mock them.
As John Donne said, "no man is an island", and a pilot exemplifies
that saying.

One thing I always keep in mind while flying is that it isn't a
natural thing for us humans. We're airborne courtesy of a lot of smart
people who developed some wonderful machines. But engineering
compromises and uncommon aerial situations exist - we always need to
be wary, as Ernest K. Gann said. I know that I fly wary, because
unlike when I'm driving to work, I can remember every second of a
flight after I land. That's a good thing, because there's always
something to be learned that will help make me a better pilot, even
after a good flight.

-John

On Oct 18, 10:57 am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> Who is primarily responsible for my safety?
> (choose one)
> A. My supervisor
> B. My boss
> C. My club
> D. My FBO
> E. Contest Director
> F. Contest Manager
> G. Rules Committee
> H. Soaring Society of America
> I. Soaring Safety Foundation
> J. FAA
> K. NTSB
> L. Me
>
> I got to thinking about the safety responsibility issue, so I started
> asking a few people. Got several of the above optipns, but the best
> one was, "My husband, Jim",
>
> Food for thought,
> JJ

[[email protected]]

The PIC!

[[email protected]]

Be careful or it might be Donald Trump

[[email protected]]

Princess Dalra from Thoron is responsible for my safety.

[Bob Pasker]

as an itinerant renter, I can tell you that every place I have rented -- about 6 leading glider clubs and commercial orgs across the country -- has its own idea of safety.

this is just an abbreviated list of differences:

1. some places have tie downs, some have wing stands, some have nothing
2. some require canopies to be down all the time, other places leave them up all the time
3. some places people have their hands on the canopy all the time, some places you can never touch the canopy
4. some places you open and shut the canopy by the rails, other places you can only operate the canopy by reaching in and using the handle
5. some places you push on the canopy to check secure, other places its verboten, or you are expected to look at the locking pins
6. some places the only thing you do is rudder wag, other places you have a wing runner, other places, you have to call the tow pilot and say "brakes locked, canopy locked, slack out" and then you can wag.
7. everyone has their own tow position they like: hstab centered on the wings, hstab at the top of the wing, hstab on the mirrors, etc. boxing the wake (remember, this is a checkout) is a whole 'nother set of parameters regarding positioning, rudder versus aileron, and whether to pause for 1/2 a second or 2 seconds, or somewhere in between, and everyone likes 'em different
8. everyone has their own favorite set of stall series, MCA, and various banks of turns. for steep turns, it could be the triangle, 50, Va, or some other number
9. on landing, everyone has their own set of IP, downwind distance from the runway ("fly over that road", "1/4 mile", "45 degrees"), base leg distance (at the threshold, 1/2 mile past the threshold, but not too far if you have a large headwind on final)
10. no speedbrakes until on base or final, never more than 1/2 speed brakes, never close the speedbrakes, etc etc
11. before landing checklist -- RUFSTALL, factory placard, this here laminated one
12. base landing speed. triangle, 1.5*Vs0, some random number which is "what we do here"
13. high energy landing or low energy landing
14. roll out straight, roll out straight but if you can move over to side of the runway into the dirt or grass, turn to get off the runway but dont groundloop
15. use the brakes, don't use the brakes, test the brakes when you land but don't use them, test the brakes when you land and use them to stop at a designated point on the runway
16. come to a stop at that intersection so you can push off there, ... stop past the instersection because the towplanes need to use it, ...stop at the staging area
17. get out of the glider when you stop, don't get out of the glider when you stop
18. radio calls -- only on downwind, on the 45, 45/downwind/base/final, depends on how much traffic there is

this is a serious list. i have had every single one of these instructions.

there is absolutely no standardization in what is expected from gliderport to gliderport

on these checkouts, I have become a chameleon, asking lots of questions in order to satisfy the CFI. at the end of the day, when I'm PIC, i do my best to take care of the glider as if it were my own, to stay out of the way of other aircraft, and to operate safely.

--bob

[[email protected]]

Uhhh... I think the correct answer is "Yes, definitely."

[[email protected]]

Well said, Bob.
What a frustration and all regarding "standardized" procedures.
This is why flight reviews have been a high stress event for me over all of my flying life. Doesn't matter how I fly it will be incorrect. Such comments as "who taught you THAT!" and "I have NEVER heard/seen/taught/read that" are pretty standard.

Even boxing the wake. Everything Bob said I have experienced PLUS two places where I have been told that "we never do that" because it overstresses the towplane or has no value in demonstrating flying skills.

In the end...I have always successfully completed flight reviews and field check-outs.

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

On Monday, August 3, 2015 at 5:53:13 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Well said, Bob.
> What a frustration and all regarding "standardized" procedures.
> This is why flight reviews have been a high stress event for me over all of my flying life. Doesn't matter how I fly it will be incorrect. Such comments as "who taught you THAT!" and "I have NEVER heard/seen/taught/read that" are pretty standard.
>
> Even boxing the wake. Everything Bob said I have experienced PLUS two places where I have been told that "we never do that" because it overstresses the towplane or has no value in demonstrating flying skills.
>
> In the end...I have always successfully completed flight reviews and field check-outs.


It's probably good to differentiate as much as possible safety considerations from operational procedures from personal preferences.

[Bob Pasker]

On Monday, August 3, 2015 at 9:12:14 AM UTC-4, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> It's probably good to differentiate as much as possible safety considerations from operational procedures from personal preferences.

even the definition of what is a "safety consideration" or an "operational consideration" or a "personal preference" varies from place to place.

take something fundamental like boxing the wake. if you can't fly it exactly the way the CFI wants it flown, maybe you don't know how to tow, and will cause ____insert failure here___

[[email protected]]

One solution to all this discontinuity is fundamentally anti-American.
National standardization of CFI training and pilot performance standards.
We are talking way beyond FARs.
Take France as an example.
All CFIGs are recertified in central locations by a national staff.
That way the training, training requirements,and performance standards are the same throughout the whole country.
The good part is that it dramatically reduces the unpredictability of what a pilot is going to face during flight reviews and local field check-outs.