refinishing Ventus 2cm- wing profile

[[email protected]]

Can anyone help with the wing profile data for a Ventus 2cm? I need
the numerical data and if possible someone who could make templates on
a CNC. I have contacted US dealer with no response. Ken

[Stephen[_3_]]

On Oct 30, 5:40*pm, wrote:
> Can anyone help with the wing profile data for a Ventus 2cm? I need
> the numerical data and if possible someone who could make templates on
> a CNC. I have contacted US dealer with no response. *Ken

Isn't this wing the same as V2b except for the added tips? S9

[[email protected]]

On Oct 30, 6:40*pm, wrote:
> Can anyone help with the wing profile data for a Ventus 2cm? I need
> the numerical data and if possible someone who could make templates on
> a CNC. I have contacted US dealer with no response. *Ken

the Ventus c model has 2 sets of wing tips,15m and 18m. I'am not sure
if it is the same as a Ventus 2b

[[email protected]]

On Oct 30, 8:11*pm, wrote:
> On Oct 30, 6:40*pm, wrote:
>
> > Can anyone help with the wing profile data for a Ventus 2cm? I need
> > the numerical data and if possible someone who could make templates on
> > a CNC. I have contacted US dealer with no response. *Ken
>
> the Ventus c model has 2 sets of wing tips,15m and 18m. I'am not sure if it is the same as a Ventus 2b David Lednicer's site shows a different airfoil for a Ventus 2 and a Ventus 2b no mention of a Ventus 2c.

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Oct 30, 3:40*pm, wrote:
> Can anyone help with the wing profile data for a Ventus 2cm? I need
> the numerical data and if possible someone who could make templates on
> a CNC. I have contacted US dealer with no response. *Ken

Round in front, pointy in back, and smooth over the top and under the
bottom. That will do what needs to be done.

Thanks, Bob K.

[[email protected]]

On Oct 30, 6:07*pm, Bob Kuykendall > wrote:
> On Oct 30, 3:40*pm, wrote:
>
> > Can anyone help with the wing profile data for a Ventus 2cm? I need
> > the numerical data and if possible someone who could make templates on
> > a CNC. I have contacted US dealer with no response. *Ken
>
> Round in front, pointy in back, and smooth over the top and under the
> bottom. That will do what needs to be done.
>
> Thanks, Bob K.

I have profiled several sets of wings and what Bob says is essentially
correct. I would profile the first 6 inches and fair the rest.
Getting the existing wing to "as-designed" is probably impossible
because the factory probably did not get it to that state when it was
built. Typically, the wing is too thick and the leading edge too
blunt.

[Rick Walters[_2_]]

On Oct 30, 3:40*pm, wrote:
> Can anyone help with the wing profile data for a Ventus 2cm? I need
> the numerical data and if possible someone who could make templates on
> a CNC. I have contacted US dealer with no response. *Ken

Ken

SH does not publish their airfoil data, or glide polars for that
matter.
The Ventus airfoil has changed in subtle ways since the 1981 a/b model
introduction.
The most notable changes have been a sharper leading edge and a
thinner profile near the wingtip,
which showed up on the V2a/b and C models. Take Bob's advice and sand,
smooth, and polish.

Rick

[Dave Nadler]

On Monday, October 31, 2011 10:51:09 AM UTC-4, Rick Walters wrote:
> SH does not publish their airfoil data, or glide polars for that
> matter.
> The Ventus airfoil has changed in subtle ways since the 1981 a/b model
> introduction.
> The most notable changes have been a sharper leading edge and a
> thinner profile near the wingtip,
> which showed up on the V2a/b and C models. Take Bob's advice and sand,
> smooth, and polish.
>
> Rick

Note also that the airfoils (even on the original
Ventus) are tailored for the Reynolds number change
towards the tip. One well-known expert measured the
coordinates near the root and just scaled them down,
reprofiled the wing using the (incorrect) airfoils
near the tip, and reported an (incorrectly measured)
performance improvement !

If you didn't get the coordinates from SH, beware
of any profile you might obtain...

So, smooth and pray ;-)

See ya, Dave "YO electric"

[Gary Boggs]

Ah, the joys of sanding... No better way to bond with your ship.
Similar in many ways to good foreplay...

Sorry.

Boggs

[BruceGreeff]

The joys of ever advancing computer computational power.
As things have become possible to calculate so the glider wings get more
complex. The current crop of 18m ships are currently approaching thirty
profiles over the ~8.7m of wing...

They generally blend the transition from one to the next, but you
certainly can't measure a station and extrapolate further out or inboard.

Yes they are not all made in CNC machined steel female mounds like the
JS1 - and even there I am sure there is manufacturing variation, but you
would have to think carefully before re-profiling significantly. Easy to
disimprove things.

On 2011/10/31 4:51 PM, Rick Walters wrote:
> On Oct 30, 3:40 pm, wrote:
>> Can anyone help with the wing profile data for a Ventus 2cm? I need
>> the numerical data and if possible someone who could make templates on
>> a CNC. I have contacted US dealer with no response. Ken
>
> Ken
>
> SH does not publish their airfoil data, or glide polars for that
> matter.
> The Ventus airfoil has changed in subtle ways since the 1981 a/b model
> introduction.
> The most notable changes have been a sharper leading edge and a
> thinner profile near the wingtip,
> which showed up on the V2a/b and C models. Take Bob's advice and sand,
> smooth, and polish.
>
> Rick

--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771 & Std Cirrus #57

[Robert Fidler[_2_]]

Ken,

Suggestion for you, start off by measuring the max thickness of each
wing at say the root and 1meter increments and compare the two
measurements. With that info in front of you, you will discover that
gliders wings are not precision manufactured. The amount of work and
money it would take to make two identical and correct to a speciific
airfoil shape may be more than realistic. I would devote my time to
making the leading edge correct and the remainder of the wing fair.

Bob Fidler "F1"


On Nov 1, 5:25*am, BruceGreeff > wrote:
> The joys of ever advancing computer computational power.
> As things have become possible to calculate so the glider wings get more
> complex. The current crop of 18m ships are currently approaching thirty
> profiles over the ~8.7m of wing... To
>
> They generally blend the transition from one to the next, but you
> certainly can't measure a station and extrapolate further out or inboard.
>
> Yes they are not all made in CNC machined steel female mounds like the
> JS1 - and even there I am sure there is manufacturing variation, but you
> would have to think carefully before re-profiling significantly. Easy to
> disimprove things.
>
> On 2011/10/31 4:51 PM, Rick Walters wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 30, 3:40 pm, wrote:
> >> Can anyone help with the wing profile data for a Ventus 2cm? I need
> >> the numerical data and if possible someone who could make templates on
> >> a CNC. I have contacted US dealer with no response. *Ken
>
> > Ken
>
> > SH does not publish their airfoil data, or glide polars for that
> > matter.
> > The Ventus airfoil has changed in subtle ways since the 1981 a/b model
> > introduction.
> > The most notable changes have been a sharper leading edge and a
> > thinner profile near the wingtip,
> > which showed up on the V2a/b and C models. Take Bob's advice and sand,
> > smooth, and polish.
>
> > Rick
>
> --
> Bruce Greeff
> T59D #1771 & Std Cirrus #57

[wladkummer76]

On Nov 2, 11:46*am, Robert Fidler > wrote:
> Ken,
>
> Suggestion for you, start off by measuring the max thickness of each
> wing at say the root and 1meter increments and compare the two
> measurements. With that info in front of you, you will discover that
> gliders wings are not precision manufactured. The amount of work and
> money it would take to make two identical and correct to a speciific
> airfoil shape may be more than realistic. I would devote my time to
> making the leading edge correct and the remainder of the wing fair.
>
> Bob Fidler "F1"
>
> On Nov 1, 5:25*am, BruceGreeff > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > The joys of ever advancing computer computational power.
> > As things have become possible to calculate so the glider wings get more
> > complex. The current crop of 18m ships are currently approaching thirty
> > profiles over the ~8.7m of wing... To
>
> > They generally blend the transition from one to the next, but you
> > certainly can't measure a station and extrapolate further out or inboard.
>
> > Yes they are not all made in CNC machined steel female mounds like the
> > JS1 - and even there I am sure there is manufacturing variation, but you
> > would have to think carefully before re-profiling significantly. Easy to
> > disimprove things.
>
> > On 2011/10/31 4:51 PM, Rick Walters wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 30, 3:40 pm, wrote:
> > >> Can anyone help with the wing profile data for a Ventus 2cm? I need
> > >> the numerical data and if possible someone who could make templates on
> > >> a CNC. I have contacted US dealer with no response. *Ken
>
> > > Ken
>
> > > SH does not publish their airfoil data, or glide polars for that
> > > matter.
> > > The Ventus airfoil has changed in subtle ways since the 1981 a/b model
> > > introduction.
> > > The most notable changes have been a sharper leading edge and a
> > > thinner profile near the wingtip,
> > > which showed up on the V2a/b and C models. Take Bob's advice and sand,
> > > smooth, and polish.
>
> > > Rick
>
> > --
> > Bruce Greeff
> > T59D #1771 & Std Cirrus #57

Better use the time and $$ to fly and train rather than trying to
achieve the utmost accuracy. One wrong thermal and you are a behind.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 11/2/2011 9:43 AM, wladkummer76 wrote:

>
> Better use the time and $$ to fly and train rather than trying to
> achieve the utmost accuracy. One wrong thermal and you are a behind.

You can do both: sand and paint in the Winter, and you can have a glider
that climbs and glides better all the time. Fly in the summer, and learn
to choose better thermals. If you do the work yourself, I don't think
the cost is very high, and you'll get some of that back if you sell it,
and enjoy looking at it and wiping down in the meantime.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[wladkummer76]

On Nov 2, 9:35*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> On 11/2/2011 9:43 AM, wladkummer76 wrote:
>
>
>
> > Better use the time and $$ to fly and train rather than trying to
> > achieve the utmost accuracy. One wrong thermal and you are a behind.
>
> You can do both: sand and paint in the Winter, and you can have a glider
> that climbs and glides better all the time. Fly in the summer, and learn
> to choose better thermals. If you do the work yourself, I don't think
> the cost is very high, and you'll get some of that back if you sell it,
> and enjoy looking at it and wiping down in the meantime.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
> email me)

Sure..sand and paint is much less effort than sand, fill, measure,
fill, measure, sand, measure, sand and finally paint. BTW my Ventus 1
is said to have a FX79-144K airfoil. I don't know what the V2 uses.
Have you tried to contact S&H directly? They are usually very helpful.

[[email protected]]

On Oct 30, 6:40*pm, wrote:
> Can anyone help with the wing profile data for a Ventus 2cm? I need
> the numerical data and if possible someone who could make templates on
> a CNC. I have contacted US dealer with no response. *Ken

I'm curious as to why you think you want/need to do this.
The most it is likely to need is a bit of fill and smoothing of shrink
areas.
From my experience, if you aren't in the top 10 at the Nationals, you
are wasting your time and money.
Airfoil coordinates are proprietary and are not generally made
available to customers or others.
If you haven't done this before, you are more likely to make the
glider worse instead of better.
FWIW
UH

[[email protected]]

On Nov 3, 8:29*am, wrote:
> On Oct 30, 6:40*pm, wrote:
>
> > Can anyone help with the wing profile data for a Ventus 2cm? I need
> > the numerical data and if possible someone who could make templates on
> > a CNC. I have contacted US dealer with no response. *Ken
>
> I'm curious as to why you think you want/need to do this.
> The most it is likely to need is a bit of fill and smoothing of shrink
> areas.
> From my experience, if you aren't in the top 10 at the Nationals, you
> are wasting your time and money.
> Airfoil coordinates are proprietary and are not generally made
> available to customers or others.
> If you haven't done this before, you are more likely to make the
> glider worse instead of better.
> FWIW
> UH

To satisfy your curiosity I will enlighten to my reasons for
refinishing the Ventus. I SH gel-coat does not hold up well in
Florida (or anywhere else where the sun shines). And even tho
presently I'am not in the top 10 at the National doesn't mean I don't
want to fly a sailplane that performs like a contender. The gel-coat
is crazed and needs redone. Its A lot of work so I want to do the best
I can.

[[email protected]]

On Nov 3, 9:40*pm, wrote:
> On Nov 3, 8:29*am, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 30, 6:40*pm, wrote:
>
> > > Can anyone help with the wing profile data for a Ventus 2cm? I need
> > > the numerical data and if possible someone who could make templates on
> > > a CNC. I have contacted US dealer with no response. *Ken
>
> > I'm curious as to why you think you want/need to do this.
> > The most it is likely to need is a bit of fill and smoothing of shrink
> > areas.
> > From my experience, if you aren't in the top 10 at the Nationals, you
> > are wasting your time and money.
> > Airfoil coordinates are proprietary and are not generally made
> > available to customers or others.
> > If you haven't done this before, you are more likely to make the
> > glider worse instead of better.
> > FWIW
> > UH
>
> To satisfy your curiosity I will enlighten to my reasons for
> refinishing the Ventus. *I SH gel-coat does not hold up well in
> Florida (or anywhere else where the sun shines). And even tho
> presently I'am not in the top 10 at the National doesn't mean I don't
> want to fly a sailplane that performs like a contender. The gel-coat
> is crazed and needs redone. Its A lot of work so I want to do the best
> I can.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

So this is a "normal" mid life refinish. No templates needed for this
if care is taken in sanding. If you are concerned with holding shape,
pull templates off wings before refinishing. First 6 inches is
plenty.
Cut 1/2 think MDF to rough profile. Wax surface. Mix up body filler
and spread on template. Slap in place and hold till cured.
A template every 2 ft is enough.
When sanding, only hand sand on leading edge area with block about 11
inches long.
Beware, this is far more work than you think.
BTDT too many times
Good luck
UH

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Nov 3, 6:40*pm, wrote:

> To satisfy your curiosity I will enlighten to my reasons for
> refinishing the Ventus. *I SH gel-coat does not hold up well in
> Florida (or anywhere else where the sun shines). And even tho
> presently I'am not in the top 10 at the National doesn't mean I don't
> want to fly a sailplane that performs like a contender. The gel-coat
> is crazed and needs redone. Its A lot of work so I want to do the best
> I can.

If you have crazed gelcoat, that is obviously not a good thing.

But making CNC templates for some mythical reference profile, and then
adding a bunch of filler and work to make your wings match it, will
likely introduce more problems than it solves. Your best bet is to
profile only the first few inches of leading edge, and for the rest of
it just concentrate on getting the waviness down to around .002". And
given a choice between those, I'd ditch the profiling and concentrate
on the waviness.

I've done template checks on a variety of sailplanes, and I have
stopped being surprised at how often the left wing profile has
substantial variations from that of the right wing. And this isn't on
dogmeat gliders, these are nationals-winning machines that go like
stink and fly straight as arrows. The takeaway there is that absolute
fidelity to profile is way down on the list of things you need. Much
higher on the list is lack of waviness that prematurely trips laminar
flow .

Thanks, Bob K.
www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24
(also search Facebook for "HP-24")

[Janet Goshorn]

On Nov 4, 1:42*pm, wrote:
> On Nov 3, 9:40*pm, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 3, 8:29*am, wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 30, 6:40*pm, wrote:
>
> > > > Can anyone help with the wing profile data for a Ventus 2cm? I need
> > > > the numerical data and if possible someone who could make templates on
> > > > a CNC. I have contacted US dealer with no response. *Ken
>
> > > I'm curious as to why you think you want/need to do this.
> > > The most it is likely to need is a bit of fill and smoothing of shrink
> > > areas.
> > > From my experience, if you aren't in the top 10 at the Nationals, you
> > > are wasting your time and money.
> > > Airfoil coordinates are proprietary and are not generally made
> > > available to customers or others.
> > > If you haven't done this before, you are more likely to make the
> > > glider worse instead of better.
> > > FWIW
> > > UH
>
> > To satisfy your curiosity I will enlighten to my reasons for
> > refinishing the Ventus. *I SH gel-coat does not hold up well in
> > Florida (or anywhere else where the sun shines). And even tho
> > presently I'am not in the top 10 at the National doesn't mean I don't
> > want to fly a sailplane that performs like a contender. The gel-coat
> > is crazed and needs redone. Its A lot of work so I want to do the best
> > I can.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> So this is a "normal" mid life refinish. No templates needed for this
> if care is taken in sanding. If you are concerned with holding shape,
> pull templates off wings before refinishing. First 6 inches is
> plenty.
> Cut 1/2 think MDF to rough profile. Wax surface. Mix up body filler
> and spread on template. Slap in place and hold till cured.
> A template every 2 ft is enough.
> When sanding, only hand sand on leading edge area with block about 11
> inches long.
> Beware, this is far more work than you think.
> BTDT too many times
> Good luck
> UH- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Heinz's talked to the factory today, bottom line ,they are not willing
to give up the data. I,ve been making templates off the orignal finish
every 2 ft. and will use plan B. It's not more work than I think,it's
more work than I would like to do.

[wladkummer76]

On Nov 4, 9:07*pm, Janet Goshorn > wrote:
> On Nov 4, 1:42*pm, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 3, 9:40*pm, wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 3, 8:29*am, wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 30, 6:40*pm, wrote:
>
> > > > > Can anyone help with the wing profile data for a Ventus 2cm? I need
> > > > > the numerical data and if possible someone who could make templates on
> > > > > a CNC. I have contacted US dealer with no response. *Ken
>
> > > > I'm curious as to why you think you want/need to do this.
> > > > The most it is likely to need is a bit of fill and smoothing of shrink
> > > > areas.
> > > > From my experience, if you aren't in the top 10 at the Nationals, you
> > > > are wasting your time and money.
> > > > Airfoil coordinates are proprietary and are not generally made
> > > > available to customers or others.
> > > > If you haven't done this before, you are more likely to make the
> > > > glider worse instead of better.
> > > > FWIW
> > > > UH
>
> > > To satisfy your curiosity I will enlighten to my reasons for
> > > refinishing the Ventus. *I SH gel-coat does not hold up well in
> > > Florida (or anywhere else where the sun shines). And even tho
> > > presently I'am not in the top 10 at the National doesn't mean I don't
> > > want to fly a sailplane that performs like a contender. The gel-coat
> > > is crazed and needs redone. Its A lot of work so I want to do the best
> > > I can.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > So this is a "normal" mid life refinish. No templates needed for this
> > if care is taken in sanding. If you are concerned with holding shape,
> > pull templates off wings before refinishing. First 6 inches is
> > plenty.
> > Cut 1/2 think MDF to rough profile. Wax surface. Mix up body filler
> > and spread on template. Slap in place and hold till cured.
> > A template every 2 ft is enough.
> > When sanding, only hand sand on leading edge area with block about 11
> > inches long.
> > Beware, this is far more work than you think.
> > BTDT too many times
> > Good luck
> > UH- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Heinz's talked to the factory today, bottom line ,they are not willing
> to give up the data. I,ve been making templates off the orignal finish
> every 2 ft. and will use plan B. It's not more work than I think,it's
> more work than I would like to do.

And be sure to seal it tight and put the the CG exactly the way it
behaves the best (usually a personal taste, but does make a difference
in thermals)

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Nov 5, 4:14*pm, wladkummer76 > wrote:

> And be sure to seal it tight...

Good point, I'd forgotten about that. Very important. Also, one of
those newfangled cockpit exhaust vents can help keep the cockpit air
from getting out where it ouhtn't.