New type of Launch Method? Video

[JohnDeRosa]

There is aero, auto, winch, bungie and slope/cliff launch methods.

Now we can add ... being dropped from a BALLOON? Would *YOU* do
this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeJ0UFOj_WQ

- John

[Gary Boggs]

It would be kinda hard to recover from a premature termination of the
tow! I want to see the release!

Boggs

[Tony[_5_]]

On Nov 22, 9:30*am, JohnDeRosa > wrote:
> There is aero, auto, winch, bungie and slope/cliff launch methods.
>
> Now we can add ... being dropped from a BALLOON? *Would *YOU* do
> this?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeJ0UFOj_WQ
>
> - John

Ralph Barnaby dropped from an Airship in 1931.

Would not want a low altitude rope break on the balloon launch!

http://www.patriotspoint.org/news_events/the-birth-of-gliders-in-america/

[Gary Osoba[_3_]]

Balloon drops can be safely conducted and have been fort many years
(going back to pilot Maloney on the early Montgomery primaries).

However, as both a balloon and sailplane pilot, I can tell you that
this video does not display much safety consciousness. In light wind
conditions (ballooning regime), it is not uncommon to have several
shearing events at low levels. Note how, after launch, the glider
moves forward following the ballon's movement. But then how the
balloon encounters a shear resulting in the glider starting to move
backward. If another shear were not encountered, changing the
balloon's direction, the glider would have been pulled into the cars
which were parked very near the launch site. Without enough bouyancy
to lift the glider over the cars, what do you suppose would have
happened? Immediately? If the pilot was pulled aloft and later
released after likely damage?

Regards,

Gary Osoba

[Bob]

On Nov 22, 8:30*am, JohnDeRosa > wrote:
> There is aero, auto, winch, bungie and slope/cliff launch methods.
>
> Now we can add ... being dropped from a BALLOON? *Would *YOU* do
> this?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeJ0UFOj_WQ
>
> - John

Back in a previous life, hang gliding, I did 6 of these with my hang
glider. Common sense, and self preservation got the best of me, and I
stopped at 6. The big fear was tow termination in the first several
hundred feet, as immediately upon release the glider pivoted straight
down, and it took several hundred feet to end the dive, which turned
into a fast pull-up, and stall if you didn't do a wingover at the
top. Hang gliders at the time had "luff lines" attached from the
kingpost to the rear of the sails, which, in a dive, or any time the
glider was going very fast, created an "automatic up elevator" effect,
forcing the nose up with speed. Even though we thought we had
everything figured out to be safe, that first few hundred feet from
leaving the ground was always a very nervous time for me. On the
positive side, I never did hear of anyone ever getting killed in a
balloon hang glider drop.

Bob

[Bill D]

On Nov 22, 9:00*am, Gary Osoba > wrote:
> Balloon drops can be safely conducted and have been fort many years
> (going back to pilot Maloney on the early Montgomery primaries).
>
> However, as both a balloon and sailplane pilot, I can tell you that
> this video does not display much safety consciousness. In light wind
> conditions (ballooning regime), it is not uncommon to have several
> shearing events at low levels. Note how, after launch, the glider
> moves forward following the ballon's movement. But then how the
> balloon encounters a shear resulting in the glider starting to move
> backward. If another shear were not encountered, changing the
> balloon's direction, the glider would have been pulled into the cars
> which were parked very near the launch site. Without enough bouyancy
> to lift the glider over the cars, what do you suppose would have
> happened? Immediately? If the pilot was pulled aloft and later
> released after likely damage?
>
> Regards,
>
> Gary Osoba

Way back in the '60's while working with Paul MacCready's company
Meteorology Research, Inc. we cooked up an idea for a high altitude
probe using a RC sized model glider and balloon.

The idea was for the balloon to lift the glider to around 100,000
feet, release it to glide back upwind to the launch point so the
experiment package could be recovered. The glider contained a homing
receiver tuned to a beacon operated at the launch point. In the day,
this was considered tricky stuff. I think maybe the DOD was funding
the project.

Several flights resulted in the same crash scenario. The little
glider had to fly really fast to make headway into high speed winds
aloft so it would cross the beacon transmitter at high speed, discover
is was flying 180 degrees the wrong way, apply hard over controls,
roll inverted and crash scattering our experiment.

The obvious solution was to spot the incoming glider and switch from
homing to normal RC so a human pilot could land it safely.
Unfortunately, we could never see it coming until the last few seconds
so the usual termination of a sortie was a bunch of scientists diving
face down in the dirt to avoid the little kamikaze. We had developed
a self-targeting glide bomb.

[Tom Gardner]

On Nov 22, 3:30*pm, JohnDeRosa > wrote:
> There is aero, auto, winch, bungie and slope/cliff launch methods.

You missed a few
- rocket, as in my 1970s logbook. I haven't read any reports of
this
being done, except for the shuttle, of course
- horse, see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86rOfjhsIIM
- foot, see the same video starting at 2:00. I wonder whether this
was inspired by that Goofy cartoon, or vice versa :)

[sisu1a]

> Now we can add ... being dropped from a BALLOON? *Would *YOU* do
> this?


The only thing scary about that one was taking off so close the the
cars, which appear within the swing of the glider when initially
launching. Okay, rope break options kinda suck below 400', but that
was still really tame compared to the helicopter launches (New
Zealand) I got on vid... initial launch and first 1000' or so is
'normal' aerotow, but after that the chopper really starts climbing
and the ASW 24/27 (grainy footage...) is vertically dangling -by it's
nosehook. Pilot releases once the propwash starts spinning the
glider. O_O

-Paul

[tstock]

On Nov 22, 10:30*am, JohnDeRosa > wrote:
> There is aero, auto, winch, bungie and slope/cliff launch methods.
>
> Now we can add ... being dropped from a BALLOON? *Would *YOU* do
> this?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeJ0UFOj_WQ
>
> - John

Hmm, well I didn't see anyone actually IN the glider, nor any movement
of the control surfaces... maybe just transporting?

[Tony[_5_]]

On Nov 22, 3:11*pm, tstock > wrote:
> On Nov 22, 10:30*am, JohnDeRosa > wrote:
>
> > There is aero, auto, winch, bungie and slope/cliff launch methods.
>
> > Now we can add ... being dropped from a BALLOON? *Would *YOU* do
> > this?
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeJ0UFOj_WQ
>
> > - John
>
> Hmm, well I didn't see anyone actually IN the glider, nor any movement
> of the control surfaces... maybe just transporting?

I can see the ailerons deflecting right at lift off. pilot trying as
hard as he can to level the wings.

[JP Stewart]

On Nov 22, 4:26*pm, Tony > wrote:
> On Nov 22, 3:11*pm, tstock > wrote:
>
> > On Nov 22, 10:30*am, JohnDeRosa > wrote:
>
> > > There is aero, auto, winch, bungie and slope/cliff launch methods.
>
> > > Now we can add ... being dropped from a BALLOON? *Would *YOU* do
> > > this?
>
> > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeJ0UFOj_WQ
>
> > > - John
>
> > Hmm, well I didn't see anyone actually IN the glider, nor any movement
> > of the control surfaces... maybe just transporting?
>
> I can see the ailerons deflecting right at lift off. pilot trying as
> hard as he can to level the wings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bINmbkLH9Lk

[Bart[_4_]]

On Nov 22, 11:04*am, sisu1a > wrote:
> was still really tame compared to the helicopter launches (New
> Zealand) I got on vid... * *initial launch and first 1000' or so is
> 'normal' aerotow, but after that the chopper really starts climbing

Given a choice, I think I would rather go with a helicopter. I'd say
that the "normal aerotow" part at the beginning makes it much safer.

By the way, are you planning to fly anytime soon?

Bart

[Bruce Hoult]

On Nov 23, 8:04*am, sisu1a > wrote:
> > Now we can add ... being dropped from a BALLOON? *Would *YOU* do
> > this?
>
> The only thing scary about that one was taking off so close the the
> cars, which appear within the swing of the glider when initially
> launching. *Okay, rope break options kinda suck below 400', but that
> was still really tame compared to the helicopter launches (New
> Zealand) I got on vid... * *initial launch and first 1000' or so is
> 'normal' aerotow, but after that the chopper really starts climbing
> and the ASW 24/27 (grainy footage...) is vertically dangling -by it's
> nosehook. Pilot releases once the propwash starts spinning the
> glider. *O_O

Pretty sure it was from the belly hook. I was there, but then you have
a video and I don't.

I think it was Bruce Drake in the ASW20, but I can't remember who was
flying the Hughes 500.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Nov 23, 8:04*am, sisu1a > wrote:
> was still really tame compared to the helicopter launches (New
> Zealand) I got on vid... * *initial launch and first 1000' or so is
> 'normal' aerotow, but after that the chopper really starts climbing
> and the ASW 24/27 (grainy footage...) is vertically dangling -by it's
> nosehook. Pilot releases once the propwash starts spinning the
> glider. *O_O

OK, my emailed notes on the day confirm that I thought it was the
belly hook, not the nose hook.

http://gei.aerobaticsweb.org/WORLD_95/bulletin_jan10.html

(scroll to the bottom)

[sisu1a]

(scroll to the bottom)

I haven't watched it in a while, and I'm not disputing which hook it
was dangling by, before it started spinning in the propwash. Release
from that position also made for a pretty nice tailslide. Honestly the
whole affair looked like a lot of damn fun! :p

Seeing as you were there, taking notes and all, pm me if you want a
copy of the vid to complete your records. It's tucked at the end of a
grainy copy of that Aussie knockoff of Sunship Game of the 74'
World's, which is actually really interesting in itself.

-Paul

[Tom Claffey]

Tip: Lock the belly release so it wont back release!
Tom



At 23:29 22 November 2011, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>On Nov 23, 8:04=A0am, sisu1a wrote:
>> was still really tame compared to the helicopter launches (New
>> Zealand) I got on vid... =A0 =A0initial launch and first 1000' or so is
>> 'normal' aerotow, but after that the chopper really starts climbing
>> and the ASW 24/27 (grainy footage...) is vertically dangling -by it's
>> nosehook. Pilot releases once the propwash starts spinning the
>> glider. =A0O_O
>
>OK, my emailed notes on the day confirm that I thought it was the
>belly hook, not the nose hook.
>
>http://gei.aerobaticsweb.org/WORLD_95/bulletin_jan10.html
>
>(scroll to the bottom)
>

[Andy[_1_]]

On Nov 22, 8:30*am, JohnDeRosa > wrote:
> There is aero, auto, winch, bungie and slope/cliff launch methods.
>
> Now we can add ... being dropped from a BALLOON? *Would *YOU* do
> this?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeJ0UFOj_WQ
>
> - John

See Chapter 1 of Collected Classics of Soaring for "Uncle Wally and
the Blimp Tow".

http://www.asa-soaring.org/content/publications.asp

Andy

[GM]

On Nov 23, 3:38*am, Tom Claffey > wrote:
> Tip: Lock the belly release so it wont back release!
> Tom

Tom,
I have been working with TOST CG-hooks (i.e. 'belly release') for the
last 25+years and have yet to find a way to 'lock' the back-release
function, a very important safety feature.
Feel free to elaborate on that one..... ;-)
Uli Neumann

[Peter Scholz[_3_]]

Am 24.11.2011 12:07, GM wrote:
> On Nov 23, 3:38 am, Tom > wrote:
>> Tip: Lock the belly release so it wont back release!
>> Tom
>
> Tom,
> I have been working with TOST CG-hooks (i.e. 'belly release') for the
> last 25+years and have yet to find a way to 'lock' the back-release
> function, a very important safety feature.
> Feel free to elaborate on that one..... ;-)
> Uli Neumann

Uli,
on my ASW24 (CG-hook only) I regularily lock the back-release feature
when aero-towing in the alps, due to the high turbulence that can be
experienced there. I simply push a cork from an ordinary wine bottle
behind the TOST hook, so that the swiveling part of the hook is blocked.

Needless to say that the cork should be removed before the next winch
launch....
--
Peter Scholz
ASW24 JE

[David Dyck]

What was the device at 56 seconds into
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HafLzEByb20&feature=fvwrel

I'm guessing it is an airspeed indicator, but I'm not sure.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Nov 25, 1:36*am, Peter Scholz > wrote:
> on my ASW24 (CG-hook only) I regularily lock the back-release feature
> when aero-towing in the alps, due to the high turbulence that can be
> experienced there. I simply push a cork from an ordinary wine bottle
> behind the TOST hook, so that the swiveling part of the hook is blocked.

Does your tow pilot know you're doing this? They might not be happy.

I've flown a belly hook-only glider (Janus) in strong thermals and
rotor and never had any problem with the rope back releasing due to
going slack. It takes quite a positive backwards pull to make the cage
swivel. I don't think the weight of the rope alone would do it.

[Andy[_1_]]

On Nov 25, 1:36*am, Bruce Hoult > wrote:

> Does your tow pilot know you're doing this? They might not be happy.

Why not? No Tost nose hook is capable of back release.

(And please let's not re-start the discussion about how dangerous it
is to aero-tow on CG hooks. In my experience with ASW-19b and ASW-28
it's a non issue so I doubt it is for the ASW-24).

Andy

[Peter Scholz[_3_]]

Am 25.11.2011 09:36, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On Nov 25, 1:36 am, Peter > wrote:
>> on my ASW24 (CG-hook only) I regularily lock the back-release feature
>> when aero-towing in the alps, due to the high turbulence that can be
>> experienced there. I simply push a cork from an ordinary wine bottle
>> behind the TOST hook, so that the swiveling part of the hook is blocked.
>
> Does your tow pilot know you're doing this? They might not be happy.
>

Yes. They actually recomend it.

> I've flown a belly hook-only glider (Janus) in strong thermals and
> rotor and never had any problem with the rope back releasing due to
> going slack. It takes quite a positive backwards pull to make the cage
> swivel. I don't think the weight of the rope alone would do it.

It's no fun to find yourself released in a rotor with no real place to
land out below you. And blocking the cage in an aero tow doesn't hurt
anybody, it just makes the CG hook function like a nose hook.
--
Peter Scholz
ASW24 JE