Bothersome Phillips Head Screws

[Larry Smith]

Doing a little work on old Cessnas for fun these days and have to tell you I
don't like Phillips head screws. The slightest corrosion and they stick
and freeze. Then your Snap-On screwdriver (make sure it fits) wallows the
head out, as you grunt and cuss. Then you have to pull out the old die
grinder and disc a groove in the dam* thing and go pull out your common
screwdriver. Last night taking off a set of wheelpants where corrosion
thrives, I had screw after screw frozen up and had to pull the compressor
out on the ramp several times --- cause it had to go back to the shop for a
recharge.

Time to go to Allen screws. Yes. The entire Phillips head screw
population is held in contempt. They ought to be banned.

[Bill Daniels]

Get an expensive carbide tipped screwdriver. The tip will stay sharp and
grab the Phillips heads without damaging them.

I loosen screws with the sharp driver and then power them out with a
electric screwdriver set to low torque so it won't damage the heads - do the
reverse to re-install.

Bill Daniels

"Larry Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Doing a little work on old Cessnas for fun these days and have to tell you
I
> don't like Phillips head screws. The slightest corrosion and they stick
> and freeze. Then your Snap-On screwdriver (make sure it fits) wallows
the
> head out, as you grunt and cuss. Then you have to pull out the old die
> grinder and disc a groove in the dam* thing and go pull out your common
> screwdriver. Last night taking off a set of wheelpants where corrosion
> thrives, I had screw after screw frozen up and had to pull the compressor
> out on the ramp several times --- cause it had to go back to the shop for
a
> recharge.
>
> Time to go to Allen screws. Yes. The entire Phillips head screw
> population is held in contempt. They ought to be banned.
>
>

[RobertR237]

In article >, "Larry Smith"
> writes:

>
>Doing a little work on old Cessnas for fun these days and have to tell you I
>don't like Phillips head screws. The slightest corrosion and they stick
>and freeze. Then your Snap-On screwdriver (make sure it fits) wallows the
>head out, as you grunt and cuss. Then you have to pull out the old die
>grinder and disc a groove in the dam* thing and go pull out your common
>screwdriver. Last night taking off a set of wheelpants where corrosion
>thrives, I had screw after screw frozen up and had to pull the compressor
>out on the ramp several times --- cause it had to go back to the shop for a
>recharge.
>
>Time to go to Allen screws. Yes. The entire Phillips head screw
>population is held in contempt. They ought to be banned.
>
>

This must be a first! The first time I have agreed with you on anything that
is.

Try the screw extractor that Sears sells. It is setup to actually dig into the
screw and lock into the metal. Not perfect but works better than anything else
I have found.

Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Ron Natalie]

"Larry Smith" > wrote in message ...
> Doing a little work on old Cessnas for fun these days and have to tell you I
> don't like Phillips head screws. The slightest corrosion and they stick
> and freeze. Then your Snap-On screwdriver (make sure it fits) wallows the
> head out, as you grunt and cuss. Then you have to pull out the old die
> grinder and disc a groove in the dam* thing and go pull out your common
> screwdriver.

No, you drill a hole in them and remove them with a screw extractor. Replace
them with stainless if you can (not structural).

[Stu Fields]

I got so sick of the Phillips head, I had a batch of binder head screws made
for me with Torx head. I can put them on the end of a Torx driver and
extend them like a sword dueler and they stay on. Better, they don't Cam
out as easy as the Phillips. Now none of the screws in my Safari helicopter
are Phillips head. Thanks to the Homebuilt regs.
Stu Fields
"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Larry Smith" > wrote in message
...
> > Doing a little work on old Cessnas for fun these days and have to tell
you I
> > don't like Phillips head screws. The slightest corrosion and they
stick
> > and freeze. Then your Snap-On screwdriver (make sure it fits) wallows
the
> > head out, as you grunt and cuss. Then you have to pull out the old die
> > grinder and disc a groove in the dam* thing and go pull out your common
> > screwdriver.
>
> No, you drill a hole in them and remove them with a screw extractor.
Replace
> them with stainless if you can (not structural).
>

[Dan Thomas]

> In article >, "Larry Smith"
> > writes:
>
> >
> >Doing a little work on old Cessnas for fun these days and have to tell you I
> >don't like Phillips head screws. The slightest corrosion and they stick
> >and freeze. Then your Snap-On screwdriver (make sure it fits) wallows the
> >head out, as you grunt and cuss. Then you have to pull out the old die
> >grinder and disc a groove in the dam* thing and go pull out your common
> >screwdriver. Last night taking off a set of wheelpants where corrosion
> >thrives, I had screw after screw frozen up and had to pull the compressor
> >out on the ramp several times --- cause it had to go back to the shop for a
> >recharge.
> >
> >Time to go to Allen screws. Yes. The entire Phillips head screw
> >population is held in contempt. They ought to be banned.

Not Allen head, but Torx. Those are by far the best-gripping
socket head ever. Commonly used on automobiles, from headlight
retaining screws up to seat-belt and brake caliper bolts. Allen head
screws aren't much better than Philips when they're seized or
overtight.
We have Henry Ford to thank for the Philips mess, as I understand
it. A Canadian, Robertson, invented the square-socket head screw many
years ago, and Ford wanted exclusive distribution rights in the US.
Robertson wouldn't give it to him, so Ford was able to keep the design
out of the US and only recently it's shown up there as a
"square-socket head" screw. We've been using it here in Canada for
generations (I have seen it on antique furniture) and it's popular
with carpenters and so on. Much better than Philips.

Dan

[Del Rawlins]

On 05 Jan 2004 08:47 AM, Stu Fields posted the following:
> I got so sick of the Phillips head, I had a batch of binder head
> screws made for me with Torx head. I can put them on the end of a
> Torx driver and extend them like a sword dueler and they stay on.
> Better, they don't Cam out as easy as the Phillips. Now none of the
> screws in my Safari helicopter are Phillips head. Thanks to the
> Homebuilt regs. Stu Fields

I would like to find aircraft grade hardware in square drive. I watched
a tv (history channel I think) program on the inventer of the phillips
head screw (it wasn't phillips) but they completely failed to mention in
his background that he was born out of wedlock. I''d like to wring his
neck but I think I'd have to stand in a long line.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

[GeorgeB]

On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 07:23:56 -0500, "Larry Smith"
> wrote:

>Doing a little work on old Cessnas for fun these days and have to tell you I
>don't like Phillips head screws. The slightest corrosion and they stick
>and freeze. Then your Snap-On screwdriver (make sure it fits) wallows the
>head out, as you grunt and cuss. Then you have to pull out the old die
>grinder and disc a groove in the dam* thing and go pull out your common
>screwdriver. Last night taking off a set of wheelpants where corrosion
>thrives, I had screw after screw frozen up and had to pull the compressor
>out on the ramp several times --- cause it had to go back to the shop for a
>recharge.
>
>Time to go to Allen screws. Yes. The entire Phillips head screw
>population is held in contempt. They ought to be banned.

Rather than hex driver (Allen is a trademark for one of these), I
suggest Torx, even better.

Now for the removal problem ... Use a_GOOD_ driver, and tap it into
the screw to remove paint, crud, corrosion, etc, in the bottom. The
inserts for power drivers tend to be pretty good. I'm told that
somone makes a carbide or carbide coated driver that is really good.

BUT, my usual problem has been my, or earlier, damage because of
"stuff" in the screw.

[Michael Alexander]

Ever try to remove a broken screw extractor? Try using a Chinese impact
driver with an American Phillips bit. Also try soaking the screw with
Kroil.

[Yoram Leshinski]

Next time, on the slightest indication that it gives you problems, do
on of the following:

1. TIGHTEN the screw. I know it sounds funny but it does work to
loosen the screw.
2. If you couldn't tighten it hit the screwdriver's head with a hammer
while pressing the screwdiver down and in the tightening direction,
the try unscrewing while hammering on the screwdriver.
3. if you have a screw that you could remove to the right and to the
left of the one that gives you problem, get a jig that screws into the
empty holes and has a screwdriver that can be then preesed down on the
stuck screw and then follow #1. I haven't used the jig since my days
in the airforce, which was no later then 1971, so I wouldn't know
where to get this jig today, I just know that I used it a lot and that
there wasn't a screw we didn't get out.

Yoram Leshinski

A pig's orgasm lasts for 30 minutes.
(In my next life I want to be a pig)



On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 07:23:56 -0500, "Larry Smith"
> wrote:

>Doing a little work on old Cessnas for fun these days and have to tell you I
>don't like Phillips head screws. The slightest corrosion and they stick
>and freeze. Then your Snap-On screwdriver (make sure it fits) wallows the
>head out, as you grunt and cuss. Then you have to pull out the old die
>grinder and disc a groove in the dam* thing and go pull out your common
>screwdriver. Last night taking off a set of wheelpants where corrosion
>thrives, I had screw after screw frozen up and had to pull the compressor
>out on the ramp several times --- cause it had to go back to the shop for a
>recharge.
>
>Time to go to Allen screws. Yes. The entire Phillips head screw
>population is held in contempt. They ought to be banned.
>

[C J Campbell]

The Phillips screw was invented by somebody who thought that it would make
the manufacturing process easier. It has been a dismal failure from day 1,
but manufacturers continue to use it.

One of the biggest problems with the screw is that you never seem to have a
screwdriver that fits it exactly, so you use the wrong size and tear up the
screw, the screwdriver, or both.

[Eugene Wendland]

It's ashamed that Roberston screw heads didn't catch on. These are the
"square" socket heads screws, opposed to the more common "hex" socket head
screws.

A Canadian invention, that unfortunately, had patent problems in the U.S.
before the start of WW2. The dawning of WW2 required U.S. manufacturers to
use a newly patented "Philips" head to keep up with wartime production and
the popular screw never looked back.

The Robertson system is far superior, doesn't strip the screw head as easily
as the Phillips and one can easily start a Robertson using one hand on the
screwdriver.
"Larry Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Doing a little work on old Cessnas for fun these days and have to tell you
I
> don't like Phillips head screws. The slightest corrosion and they stick
> and freeze. Then your Snap-On screwdriver (make sure it fits) wallows
the
> head out, as you grunt and cuss. Then you have to pull out the old die
> grinder and disc a groove in the dam* thing and go pull out your common
> screwdriver. Last night taking off a set of wheelpants where corrosion
> thrives, I had screw after screw frozen up and had to pull the compressor
> out on the ramp several times --- cause it had to go back to the shop for
a
> recharge.
>
> Time to go to Allen screws. Yes. The entire Phillips head screw
> population is held in contempt. They ought to be banned.
>
>

[JDupre5762]

>Doing a little work on old Cessnas for fun these days and have to tell you I
>don't like Phillips head screws. The slightest corrosion and they stick
>and freeze. Then your Snap-On screwdriver (make sure it fits) wallows the
>head out, as you grunt and cuss. Then you have to pull out the old die
>grinder and disc a groove in the dam* thing and go pull out your common
>screwdriver.

I have found that most stuck screws are as much the result of too much torque
on installation as corrosion, I mean a combination of both. If the initial
torque was not too high than removal is no problem even if there is some
corrosion.

If I am removing screws on a plane I haven't worked before I set the torque on
my battery screwdriver to a low setting so that it starts racheting before it
cams out of the screw head. If a screw is stuck then I progressively ramp up
the torque on the driver and often that will get a screw out. For the really
stubborn ones I get out my Craftsmen speed handle, I have the one with a really
wide handle that I sometimes will actually lean on with my chest. Anyway I
take the speed handle and try first to tighten the screw. If the screw is
stuck from corrosion than sometimes tightening will break it free and allow it
to be removed. If the screw is well and truly stuck I can judge when the bit
will cam out much better than with the power driver.

If the screw head is buggered up then very often a little valve grinding
compound will allow the bit to get a better bite. Snap On makes replaceable
bits that have serration on the removal faces that grip better than standard
bits.

If the screw won't come out either from being stuck or because the head is to
damaged then I will use a screw removal tool of some kind. I own several
types. I almost never use the die grinder disc technique and how to you use
that on a flush head screw anyway? Sometimes, especiall on smaller screws #8
and #6 the head break off even when you use all techniques and the only thing
left is to muckle on to the stem of the screw with vise grips and twist it out,
providing you get all the other screws out so that the cover is removed and the
body of the srcrew is accessible. Sometimes I will get on the underside of the
stuck screw and continue to tighten it until the headless screw comes out the
bottom, this is not possible if the screw is in a blind area of course.

In any event once I have gone through the procedures of stuck screw removal on
one annual of a new to me aircraft I rarely have any more problems from stuck
screws because I do not overtorque them on installation. I will also squirt a
light oil into the female fastener if I think it is necessary.

I suspect that whether you are dealing with torx, hex or square drive, phillips
or reed and prince, quad wing or tri wing, every type of fastener style has its
pros and cons.

John Dupre'

[Bill Hale]

"Larry Smith" > wrote in message >...

Couple of a ideas for Phillips...

1) Use a good phillips driver and put a bit of valve
grinding compound on it. Can sometimes walk out a really
stuck screw that way. Throw the screw away then.

2) Don't use Stainless. The strength is much less and they round
out more easily.

3) Use head with deepest possible cross.

4) If they don't look too hot when removed, don't put them
back. Buy cheap ones by the gross on Ebay.

Bill Hale

> Doing a little work on old Cessnas for fun these days and have to tell you I
> don't like Phillips head screws. The slightest corrosion and they stick
> and freeze. Then your Snap-On screwdriver (make sure it fits) wallows the
> head out, as you grunt and cuss. Then you have to pull out the old die
> grinder and disc a groove in the dam* thing and go pull out your common
> screwdriver. Last night taking off a set of wheelpants where corrosion
> thrives, I had screw after screw frozen up and had to pull the compressor
> out on the ramp several times --- cause it had to go back to the shop for a
> recharge.
>
> Time to go to Allen screws. Yes. The entire Phillips head screw
> population is held in contempt. They ought to be banned.

[Drew Dalgleish]

On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 07:23:56 -0500, "Larry Smith"
> wrote:

>Doing a little work on old Cessnas for fun these days and have to tell you I
>don't like Phillips head screws. The slightest corrosion and they stick
>and freeze. Then your Snap-On screwdriver (make sure it fits) wallows the
>head out, as you grunt and cuss. Then you have to pull out the old die
>grinder and disc a groove in the dam* thing and go pull out your common
>screwdriver. Last night taking off a set of wheelpants where corrosion
>thrives, I had screw after screw frozen up and had to pull the compressor
>out on the ramp several times --- cause it had to go back to the shop for a
>recharge.
>
>Time to go to Allen screws. Yes. The entire Phillips head screw
>population is held in contempt. They ought to be banned.
>
>
Not as bad as reed and prince screw heads they truly are the work of
the devil.
Drew

[Roger Halstead]

On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 22:27:42 GMT, (Michael Alexander)
wrote:

>Ever try to remove a broken screw extractor? Try using a Chinese impact
>driver with an American Phillips bit. Also try soaking the screw with
>Kroil.

Give them the Kroil, or WD-40 treatment a day before trying to remove
them. It works like magic.

With small engines that had frozen up where you couldn't even budge
the crank, we'd take the head off, give it a really good dose of WD-40
(or Kroil), set the head back in place and forget the thing for 24
hours. Go back the next day and you could turn the crank by hand.
Never had it fail although I'm sure there were such cases.

But, that was aluminum and I'd thin the penetrating oil would have the
same effect when trying to get bound up screws out. Have patience
and save a *lot* of work.

Nuther thing that might help is use the bit in a drill that has the
hammer drill function. Set the torque to low and put 'er in reverse
(after the kroil treatment) The low torque and hammer seems to also
work wonders for me.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger Halstead]

On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 18:20:27 -0500, "Eugene Wendland" >
wrote:

>It's ashamed that Roberston screw heads didn't catch on. These are the
>"square" socket heads screws, opposed to the more common "hex" socket head
>screws.
>

I like the ones that look like a figure 8 better than the square. I
forget what they are called, but I've never had a driver slip out of
one. Course I never had to remove one full of paint either.


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>A Canadian invention, that unfortunately, had patent problems in the U.S.
>before the start of WW2. The dawning of WW2 required U.S. manufacturers to
>use a newly patented "Philips" head to keep up with wartime production and
>the popular screw never looked back.
>
>The Robertson system is far superior, doesn't strip the screw head as easily
>as the Phillips and one can easily start a Robertson using one hand on the
>screwdriver.
>"Larry Smith" > wrote in message
...
>> Doing a little work on old Cessnas for fun these days and have to tell you
>I
>> don't like Phillips head screws. The slightest corrosion and they stick
>> and freeze. Then your Snap-On screwdriver (make sure it fits) wallows
>the
>> head out, as you grunt and cuss. Then you have to pull out the old die
>> grinder and disc a groove in the dam* thing and go pull out your common
>> screwdriver. Last night taking off a set of wheelpants where corrosion
>> thrives, I had screw after screw frozen up and had to pull the compressor
>> out on the ramp several times --- cause it had to go back to the shop for
>a
>> recharge.
>>
>> Time to go to Allen screws. Yes. The entire Phillips head screw
>> population is held in contempt. They ought to be banned.
>>
>>
>

[Fred Stewart]

"Roger Halstead" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 18:20:27 -0500, "Eugene Wendland" >
> wrote:
>
> >It's ashamed that Roberston screw heads didn't catch on. These are the
> >"square" socket heads screws, opposed to the more common "hex" socket
head
> >screws.
> >
>
> I like the ones that look like a figure 8 better than the square. I
> forget what they are called, but I've never had a driver slip out of
> one. Course I never had to remove one full of paint either.
>
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
> www.rogerhalstead.com
>
> >A Canadian invention, that unfortunately, had patent problems in the U.S.
> >before the start of WW2. The dawning of WW2 required U.S. manufacturers
to
> >use a newly patented "Philips" head to keep up with wartime production
and
> >the popular screw never looked back.
> >
> >The Robertson system is far superior, doesn't strip the screw head as
easily
> >as the Phillips and one can easily start a Robertson using one hand on
the
> >screwdriver.
> >"Larry Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Doing a little work on old Cessnas for fun these days and have to tell
you
> >I
> >> don't like Phillips head screws. The slightest corrosion and they
stick
> >> and freeze. Then your Snap-On screwdriver (make sure it fits) wallows
> >the
> >> head out, as you grunt and cuss. Then you have to pull out the old
die
> >> grinder and disc a groove in the dam* thing and go pull out your common
> >> screwdriver. Last night taking off a set of wheelpants where
corrosion
> >> thrives, I had screw after screw frozen up and had to pull the
compressor
> >> out on the ramp several times --- cause it had to go back to the shop
for
> >a
> >> recharge.
> >>
> >> Time to go to Allen screws. Yes. The entire Phillips head screw
> >> population is held in contempt. They ought to be banned.
> >>
> >>
> >
>

[Fred Stewart]

Try dipping your phillips bit in a small amount of valve grinding compound,
the bit will bite into the screw. That screw will back right out every time.

Fred Stewart


"Roger Halstead" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 18:20:27 -0500, "Eugene Wendland" >
> wrote:
>
> >It's ashamed that Roberston screw heads didn't catch on. These are the
> >"square" socket heads screws, opposed to the more common "hex" socket
head
> >screws.
> >
>
> I like the ones that look like a figure 8 better than the square. I
> forget what they are called, but I've never had a driver slip out of
> one. Course I never had to remove one full of paint either.
>
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
> www.rogerhalstead.com
>
> >A Canadian invention, that unfortunately, had patent problems in the U.S.
> >before the start of WW2. The dawning of WW2 required U.S. manufacturers
to
> >use a newly patented "Philips" head to keep up with wartime production
and
> >the popular screw never looked back.
> >
> >The Robertson system is far superior, doesn't strip the screw head as
easily
> >as the Phillips and one can easily start a Robertson using one hand on
the
> >screwdriver.
> >"Larry Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Doing a little work on old Cessnas for fun these days and have to tell
you
> >I
> >> don't like Phillips head screws. The slightest corrosion and they
stick
> >> and freeze. Then your Snap-On screwdriver (make sure it fits) wallows
> >the
> >> head out, as you grunt and cuss. Then you have to pull out the old
die
> >> grinder and disc a groove in the dam* thing and go pull out your common
> >> screwdriver. Last night taking off a set of wheelpants where
corrosion
> >> thrives, I had screw after screw frozen up and had to pull the
compressor
> >> out on the ramp several times --- cause it had to go back to the shop
for
> >a
> >> recharge.
> >>
> >> Time to go to Allen screws. Yes. The entire Phillips head screw
> >> population is held in contempt. They ought to be banned.
> >>
> >>
> >
>

[Wright1902Glider]

Gives me an entirely new respect for common slot-headed screws. I'm limited to
using them on my Wright machine (no Phillips in 1902.) I've found that with a
good screwdriver, they hold a lot more torque. However, they absolutely suck
when used with a cordless drill. Use the tool that matches the technology I
guess. BTW, try removing #6 zinc screws from seasoned white ash lumber
sometime. FUN!

Harry

[Roger Halstead]

On 06 Jan 2004 20:42:52 GMT,
(Wright1902Glider) wrote:

>Gives me an entirely new respect for common slot-headed screws. I'm limited to
>using them on my Wright machine (no Phillips in 1902.) I've found that with a
>good screwdriver, they hold a lot more torque. However, they absolutely suck
>when used with a cordless drill. Use the tool that matches the technology I
>guess. BTW, try removing #6 zinc screws from seasoned white ash lumber
>sometime. FUN!
>
<LOL>
When disassembling Jack's old Barracuda (which is made of wood) there
are hundreds and hundreds of screws. There are slotted head and
phillips head. I learned early on that the "old technology" ( hand
held screwdriver) was about the only way to remove those slotted head
screws. I could not for the life of me, keep a bit in those slotted
heads. It would just start to back out and there I was with the bit
walking across the fire wall, wing, or what ever and that was with the
thing in low gear.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>Harry

[John Ousterhout]

On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 07:23:56 -0500, "Larry Smith"
> wrote:

>Doing a little work on old Cessnas for fun these days and have to tell you I
>don't like Phillips head screws.
>
>Time to go to Allen screws. Yes. The entire Phillips head screw
>population is held in contempt. They ought to be banned.

Anything with the name Phillips is just a pain in the ass :)

- J.O.-

[Larry Smith]

"John Ousterhout" >
wrote in message ...
> On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 07:23:56 -0500, "Larry Smith"
> > wrote:
>
> >Doing a little work on old Cessnas for fun these days and have to tell
you I
> >don't like Phillips head screws.
> >
> >Time to go to Allen screws. Yes. The entire Phillips head screw
> >population is held in contempt. They ought to be banned.
>
> Anything with the name Phillips is just a pain in the ass :)
>
> - J.O.-

ROFL! That was priceless.

[Snowbird]

"Larry Smith" > wrote in message >...
> Doing a little work on old Cessnas for fun these days and have to tell you I
> don't like Phillips head screws. The slightest corrosion and they stick
> and freeze. Then your Snap-On screwdriver (make sure it fits) wallows the
> head out, as you grunt and cuss.

One thing I haven't seen in this thread, is dousing the suckers
with the penetrating oil of one's choice a day or so before
planned maintenance.

This works wonders on yuccky corroded steel or aluminum which
has spent years in a cold, very corrosive environment w/out
any maintenance at all, but I haven't had occasion to try it
on a plane (no corroded screws yet on ours, certain not in
the commonly-off parts like wheelpants).

Doesn't this work on planes? I can see where a pro in a maintenance
shop wouldn't have the time to wait, but when working "for fun"...

Sydney

[Ron Natalie]

"Snowbird" > wrote in message om...
> Doesn't this work on planes? I can see where a pro in a maintenance
> shop wouldn't have the time to wait, but when working "for fun"...
>
Somebody already suggested WD-40 and Kroil. I wasn't familiar with
Kroil, but it appears to also be a penetrating oil (we generally go with the
name Liquid Wrench here, another popular penetrating oil).

[Eric Miller]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Snowbird" > wrote in message
om...
> > Doesn't this work on planes? I can see where a pro in a maintenance
> > shop wouldn't have the time to wait, but when working "for fun"...
> >
> Somebody already suggested WD-40 and Kroil. I wasn't familiar with
> Kroil, but it appears to also be a penetrating oil (we generally go with
the
> name Liquid Wrench here, another popular penetrating oil).

I just trailered my Dragonfly home and a kindly stranger lent me some Aero
Kroil to remove the exhaust nuts... best stuff I've ever used!

Eric

[m alexander]

Kroil http://www.kanolabs.com

Works much better than WD-40

[RU ok]

>> Somebody already suggested WD-40 and Kroil. I wasn't familiar with
>> Kroil, but it appears to also be a penetrating oil (we generally go with
>the
>> name Liquid Wrench here, another popular penetrating oil).
>
>I just trailered my Dragonfly home and a kindly stranger lent me some Aero
>Kroil to remove the exhaust nuts... best stuff I've ever used!
>
>Eric
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Welcome to the 'Kroil Club', Eric. <g>


Barnyard BOb --

[Dan Thomas]

"Eric Miller" > wrote in message >...
> "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
> m...
> >
> > "Snowbird" > wrote in message
> om...
> > > Doesn't this work on planes? I can see where a pro in a maintenance
> > > shop wouldn't have the time to wait, but when working "for fun"...
> > >
> > Somebody already suggested WD-40 and Kroil. I wasn't familiar with
> > Kroil, but it appears to also be a penetrating oil (we generally go with
> the
> > name Liquid Wrench here, another popular penetrating oil).
>
> I just trailered my Dragonfly home and a kindly stranger lent me some Aero
> Kroil to remove the exhaust nuts... best stuff I've ever used!
>
> Eric

I use Mouse Milk. Dandy stuff, and works well on throttle/turbo
waste gate linkages where there's a lot of heat. Expensive, though.
Have to milk a lot of mice to get even a small bottle...

Dan

[Eric Miller]

"RU ok" > wrote in message
...
>
> >I just trailered my Dragonfly home and a kindly stranger lent me some
Aero
> >Kroil to remove the exhaust nuts... best stuff I've ever used!
> >
> >Eric
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Welcome to the 'Kroil Club', Eric. <g>
>
> Barnyard BOb --

I'm a convert. The "Kroil Club"... users check in, but don't they check out!



"Dan Thomas" > wrote in message >
> I use Mouse Milk. Dandy stuff, and works well on throttle/turbo
> waste gate linkages where there's a lot of heat. Expensive, though.
> Have to milk a lot of mice to get even a small bottle...
>
> Dan

Reminds me of an old joke....

A cannibal goes into a meat market to buy some brains.
They sell passengers' brains for $5/pound.
They sell pilots' brains for $10/pound.
And they have homebuilders' brains for $1,000/pound.
They cannibal says to the butcher, "Why are homebulders brains so expensive?
They must really be smart!"
The butcher says, "Are you kidding? Do you have any idea how many
homebuilders it takes to scrape together one pound of brains?!?"

Eric :-)

[RU ok]

On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 11:41:58 GMT, "Eric Miller" >
wrote:


>> >I just trailered my Dragonfly home and a kindly stranger lent me some
>Aero
>> >Kroil to remove the exhaust nuts... best stuff I've ever used!
>> >
>> >Eric
>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>
>> Welcome to the 'Kroil Club', Eric. <g>
>>
>> Barnyard BOb --


>
>I'm a convert. The "Kroil Club"... users check in, but don't they check out!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Here's another slogan....

USERS SUCK TO GET MOUSE MILK.

:o)



Barnyard BOb -

[Big John]

Roger

They make a bit that is for a slotted head screw and has a spring
loaded sleave that goes down over the screw driver blade. This helps
hold the screw in the screw driver blade.

Not sure where I got mine but ask around at a tool place and you can
probably find. Might work for you?

I use mine in a hand screw driver that I can use different bits in and
also in my electric drill.

Big John
Pilot ROCAF


On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 00:46:40 GMT, Roger Halstead
> wrote:

>On 06 Jan 2004 20:42:52 GMT,
>(Wright1902Glider) wrote:
>
>>Gives me an entirely new respect for common slot-headed screws. I'm limited to
>>using them on my Wright machine (no Phillips in 1902.) I've found that with a
>>good screwdriver, they hold a lot more torque. However, they absolutely suck
>>when used with a cordless drill. Use the tool that matches the technology I
>>guess. BTW, try removing #6 zinc screws from seasoned white ash lumber
>>sometime. FUN!
>>
><LOL>
>When disassembling Jack's old Barracuda (which is made of wood) there
>are hundreds and hundreds of screws. There are slotted head and
>phillips head. I learned early on that the "old technology" ( hand
>held screwdriver) was about the only way to remove those slotted head
>screws. I could not for the life of me, keep a bit in those slotted
>heads. It would just start to back out and there I was with the bit
>walking across the fire wall, wing, or what ever and that was with the
>thing in low gear.
>
>Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
>(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
>www.rogerhalstead.com
>>Harry

[Big John]

RU ok

Just ask Jay. Go to any corn crib in Iowa and you will find plenty of
mice to provide your milk.

Big John
Pilot ROCAF


On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 06:48:07 -0600, RU ok > wrote:

>On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 11:41:58 GMT, "Eric Miller" >
>wrote:
>
>
>>> >I just trailered my Dragonfly home and a kindly stranger lent me some
>>Aero
>>> >Kroil to remove the exhaust nuts... best stuff I've ever used!
>>> >
>>> >Eric
>>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>
>>> Welcome to the 'Kroil Club', Eric. <g>
>>>
>>> Barnyard BOb --
>
>
>>
>>I'm a convert. The "Kroil Club"... users check in, but don't they check out!
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Here's another slogan....
>
> USERS SUCK TO GET MOUSE MILK.
>
> :o)
>
>
>
>Barnyard BOb -

[Jim Weir]

I see from the website that they sell mail order primarily. Does anybody know
if there is a local outlet for the stuff? I tried the usual aviation supply
houses (K-Mart, Kragen, True Value, etc.) and couldn't find any on the shelf.

Jim




(m alexander)
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

->Kroil http://www.kanolabs.com
->
->Works much better than WD-40



Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Eric Miller]

"Jim Weir" > wrote in message
...
>
> I see from the website that they sell mail order primarily. Does anybody
know
> if there is a local outlet for the stuff? I tried the usual aviation
supply
> houses (K-Mart, Kragen, True Value, etc.) and couldn't find any on the
shelf.
>
> Jim

I did a Google search and found a few places that sell it (the last two are
shooting supply houses, which I found surprising):

http://www.eastwoodco.com/
http://www.midwayusa.com/
http://www.brunoshooters.com/

Haven't had any experience with any of them

Eric

[B2431]

>From: "Eric Miller"
>Date: 1/8/2004 12:05 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"Jim Weir" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> I see from the website that they sell mail order primarily. Does anybody
>know
>> if there is a local outlet for the stuff? I tried the usual aviation
>supply
>> houses (K-Mart, Kragen, True Value, etc.) and couldn't find any on the
>shelf.
>>
>> Jim
>
>I did a Google search and found a few places that sell it (the last two are
>shooting supply houses, which I found surprising):
>
>http://www.eastwoodco.com/
>http://www.midwayusa.com/
>http://www.brunoshooters.com/
>
>Haven't had any experience with any of them
>
>Eric
>
As a gunsmith let me tell you some gun owners are extremely lazy about caring
for their firearms. Shotgun and 22 owners are the worst followed by the guy who
only keeps the gun because it belonged to grandpa. Most of the "repairs" I have
done on those types are due to not cleaning and/or not rustproofing.

Kroil comes in handy when someone brings in his great grandfather's 30-40 Krag
with the bolt rusted shut and would I be so kind as to make it shootable? Don't
mind the mudwasp nest in the barrel. Yes, I have actually had such a case.

For what it's worth I keep a small can of Kroil I can dunk parts in. It's a
great way to get parts separated.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: "Eric Miller"
>Date: 1/8/2004 5:41 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"RU ok" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> >I just trailered my Dragonfly home and a kindly stranger lent me some
>Aero
>> >Kroil to remove the exhaust nuts... best stuff I've ever used!
>> >
>> >Eric
>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>
>> Welcome to the 'Kroil Club', Eric. <g>
>>
>> Barnyard BOb --
>
>I'm a convert. The "Kroil Club"... users check in, but don't they check out!
>
>
>
>"Dan Thomas" > wrote in message >
>> I use Mouse Milk. Dandy stuff, and works well on throttle/turbo
>> waste gate linkages where there's a lot of heat. Expensive, though.
>> Have to milk a lot of mice to get even a small bottle...
>>
>> Dan
>
>Reminds me of an old joke....
>
>A cannibal goes into a meat market to buy some brains.
>They sell passengers' brains for $5/pound.
>They sell pilots' brains for $10/pound.
>And they have homebuilders' brains for $1,000/pound.
>They cannibal says to the butcher, "Why are homebulders brains so expensive?
>They must really be smart!"
>The butcher says, "Are you kidding? Do you have any idea how many
>homebuilders it takes to scrape together one pound of brains?!?"
>
>Eric :-)
>

Have you ever seen the cartoons where the cannibals are cooking missionaries in
huge pots? They are incorrect in doing that. They are Franciscan Monks and are
thus friars.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[StellaStar]

> Most of the "repairs" I have
>done on those types are due to not cleaning and/or not rustproofing.
>

Horribly off-topic, but I know you experts will have this answer too: my
teenage boy spends his allowance on great fake swords that he just adores. I
hesitate to criticize the dreadful workmanship (handles and hilts tend to fall
off) because they're within his budget, but at least they're not chrome-plated.
He's gone through sandpaper and steel wool to polish them (hey, it keeps him
off the streets) and now is on a quest to find something called Naval Jelly.
Apparently it's for polishing metal to a very fine finish. Any ideas where I
can get him some?

[Mike Patterson]

On 09 Jan 2004 04:23:49 GMT, (StellaStar) wrote:

>> Most of the "repairs" I have
>>done on those types are due to not cleaning and/or not rustproofing.
>>
>
>Horribly off-topic, but I know you experts will have this answer too: my
>teenage boy spends his allowance on great fake swords that he just adores. I
>hesitate to criticize the dreadful workmanship (handles and hilts tend to fall
>off) because they're within his budget, but at least they're not chrome-plated.
> He's gone through sandpaper and steel wool to polish them (hey, it keeps him
>off the streets) and now is on a quest to find something called Naval Jelly.
>Apparently it's for polishing metal to a very fine finish. Any ideas where I
>can get him some?

Here's what is is:
http://www.shorechemical.com/Section%207%20Tech%20Sheets/naval_jelly.htm

And you can get it at any hardware store, paint store, Home Depot,
Lowes, and I think they even sell it at Wal-Mart.

HTH
Mike
Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

[J&D Kahn]

There is even worse than Phillips used in aerospace. An evil thing called a
Tri-Wing. It has three offset points so that there is more reverse contact
area than tighten so supposedly you can't strip it by tightening enough to
prevent removal. Problem is they are very shallow and fill with paint
easily and need to have the screwdriver very straight. Most airline
operators replace them with Phillips NAS screws in the field. There is less
choice with aerospace standard screws since holes that provide a nice deep
staight wall socket like allen, robertson and torx make it harder to give a
low profile or countersunk screw the required strength. Never seen an MS or
NAS torx or robertson.

There is another aerospace screw like a tri wing but with 4 offset points
and a deeper narrower slot that works pretty good. Forget what it's called.

John

"Larry Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Doing a little work on old Cessnas for fun these days and have to tell you
I
> don't like Phillips head screws. The slightest corrosion and they stick
> and freeze. Then your Snap-On screwdriver (make sure it fits) wallows
the
> head out, as you grunt and cuss. Then you have to pull out the old die
> grinder and disc a groove in the dam* thing and go pull out your common
> screwdriver. Last night taking off a set of wheelpants where corrosion
> thrives, I had screw after screw frozen up and had to pull the compressor
> out on the ramp several times --- cause it had to go back to the shop for
a
> recharge.
>
> Time to go to Allen screws. Yes. The entire Phillips head screw
> population is held in contempt. They ought to be banned.
>
>

[Morgans]

"Mike Patterson" > wrote in
message ...
> On 09 Jan 2004 04:23:49 GMT, (StellaStar) wrote:
>
> >> Most of the "repairs" I have
> >>done on those types are due to not cleaning and/or not rustproofing.
> >>
> >
> >Horribly off-topic, but I know you experts will have this answer too: my
> >teenage boy spends his allowance on great fake swords that he just
adores. I
> >hesitate to criticize the dreadful workmanship (handles and hilts tend to
fall
> >off) because they're within his budget, but at least they're not
chrome-plated.
> > He's gone through sandpaper and steel wool to polish them (hey, it keeps
him
> >off the streets) and now is on a quest to find something called Naval
Jelly.
> >Apparently it's for polishing metal to a very fine finish. Any ideas
where I
> >can get him some?
>
> Here's what is is:
> http://www.shorechemical.com/Section%207%20Tech%20Sheets/naval_jelly.htm
>
> And you can get it at any hardware store, paint store, Home Depot,
> Lowes, and I think they even sell it at Wal-Mart.
>
And auto parts stores. I don't think it will do the polishing you want,
though.
--
Jim in NC

[Roger Halstead]

On 6 Jan 2004 23:44:23 -0800, (Snowbird)
wrote:

>"Larry Smith" > wrote in message >...
>> Doing a little work on old Cessnas for fun these days and have to tell you I
>> don't like Phillips head screws. The slightest corrosion and they stick
>> and freeze. Then your Snap-On screwdriver (make sure it fits) wallows the
>> head out, as you grunt and cuss.
>
>One thing I haven't seen in this thread, is dousing the suckers
>with the penetrating oil of one's choice a day or so before
>planned maintenance.

Just back up a few of my posts. I brought up both Kroil and WD-40 for
"the day before" <:-))
>
>This works wonders on yuccky corroded steel or aluminum which
>has spent years in a cold, very corrosive environment w/out
>any maintenance at all, but I haven't had occasion to try it
>on a plane (no corroded screws yet on ours, certain not in
>the commonly-off parts like wheelpants).

Sure does. Either Kroil or WD-40. The WD-40 has the advantage it
doesn't stay around as long as the Kroil. Which is great as I had a
good half can of the stuff set loose in the back of the 4-runner.
After 3 weeks the smell is pretty well gone. (or my sinuses are shot)

>
>Doesn't this work on planes? I can see where a pro in a maintenance
>shop wouldn't have the time to wait, but when working "for fun"...
>
Some times you don't have time to not wait. <:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


>Sydney

[Roger Halstead]

On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 09:53:28 -0800, Jim Weir > wrote:

>
>I see from the website that they sell mail order primarily. Does anybody know
>if there is a local outlet for the stuff? I tried the usual aviation supply
>houses (K-Mart, Kragen, True Value, etc.) and couldn't find any on the shelf.

Try machine shops and industrial supply houses.

I've never checked at Lowe's or Home Depot.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>Jim
>
>
>
>
(m alexander)
>shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:
>
>->Kroil http://www.kanolabs.com
>->
>->Works much better than WD-40
>
>
>
>Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
>VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
>http://www.rst-engr.com

[Roger Halstead]

On 09 Jan 2004 04:23:49 GMT, (StellaStar) wrote:

>> Most of the "repairs" I have
>>done on those types are due to not cleaning and/or not rustproofing.
>>
>
>Horribly off-topic, but I know you experts will have this answer too: my
>teenage boy spends his allowance on great fake swords that he just adores. I
>hesitate to criticize the dreadful workmanship (handles and hilts tend to fall
>off) because they're within his budget, but at least they're not chrome-plated.
> He's gone through sandpaper and steel wool to polish them (hey, it keeps him
>off the streets) and now is on a quest to find something called Naval Jelly.
>Apparently it's for polishing metal to a very fine finish. Any ideas where I
>can get him some?

It's a rust remover.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Eric Miller]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> >"Eric Miller" wrote
> >"Dan Thomas" > wrote in message >
> >> I use Mouse Milk. Dandy stuff, and works well on throttle/turbo
> >> waste gate linkages where there's a lot of heat. Expensive, though.
> >> Have to milk a lot of mice to get even a small bottle...
> >>
> >> Dan
> >
> >Reminds me of an old joke....
> >
> >A cannibal goes into a meat market to buy some brains.
> >They sell passengers' brains for $5/pound.
> >They sell pilots' brains for $10/pound.
> >And they have homebuilders' brains for $1,000/pound.
> >They cannibal says to the butcher, "Why are homebulders brains so
expensive?
> >They must really be smart!"
> >The butcher says, "Are you kidding? Do you have any idea how many
> >homebuilders it takes to scrape together one pound of brains?!?"
> >
> >Eric :-)
> >
>
> Have you ever seen the cartoons where the cannibals are cooking
missionaries in
> huge pots? They are incorrect in doing that. They are Franciscan Monks and
are
> thus friars.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

LOL Dan!

[Jim Weir]

Don't be silly. Those are the folks who cook the potatos at a fish and chips
dinner. Those are the Chip Monks.


Jim



->Have you ever seen the cartoons where the cannibals are cooking missionaries
in
->huge pots? They are incorrect in doing that. They are Franciscan Monks and are
->thus friars.




Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[B2431]

>From: Jim Weir
>Date: 1/9/2004 10:08 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Don't be silly. Those are the folks who cook the potatos at a fish and chips
>dinner. Those are the Chip Monks.
>
>
>Jim
>
>
>
>->Have you ever seen the cartoons where the cannibals are cooking
>missionaries
>in
>->huge pots? They are incorrect in doing that. They are Franciscan Monks and
>are
>->thus friars.
>
>
>
>
>Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
>VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
>http://www.rst-engr.com
>
Groan

Mine was bad enough.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Snowbird]

(StellaStar) wrote in message >...

> Horribly off-topic, but I know you experts will have this answer too: my
> teenage boy spends his allowance on great fake swords that he just adores. I
> hesitate to criticize the dreadful workmanship (handles and hilts tend to fall
> off) because they're within his budget, but at least they're not chrome-plated.
> He's gone through sandpaper and steel wool to polish them (hey, it keeps him
> off the streets) and now is on a quest to find something called Naval Jelly.
> Apparently it's for polishing metal to a very fine finish. Any ideas where I
> can get him some?

No expert, but Naval Jelly is a rust remover. I made its acquaintance
when I was a highschooler restoring an old army foot locker as a trunk
I could take to college (hey, it kept me off the streets).

You can buy it at Big Home Repair Warehouse Inc, but for polishing
metal to a fine finish, how about getting him an inexpensive bench-grinder
from Harbor Freight and some polishing compounds of various flavors?

Failing that:
Motorcycle shops which cater to enthusiasts are a great place to find
esoteric but effective polishing compounds and advice about which ones
work best.

HTH -- is he into SCA or that sort of thing?

Sydney

[StellaStar]

> is he into SCA or that sort of thing?

He would be, if he met anybody who'd talk him into going to Society for
Creative Anachronism events...and if I'd oblige him by making him a great
swirling cape or (his preference) a spiffy coat like the guy in Matrix. He's
done extensive damage to a bookcase in his room, the only furniture he's
officially allowed to deface because it's worthless, and last week had to make
his first ever visit to an emergency room. He fell on his sword, in a way, and
needed stitches in one finger.

I didn't even take the opportunity to make the easy jokes. He loves me :-)