Club Class - Class growth - progression - Have we seen any?

[hotelalpha]

NOT MUCH CLUB CLASS ACTIVITY. NO CHANGE IN RULES - is the answer from
the 2011 SSA Rules Committee Meeting Minutes in Waller Texas November
12, 2011.

The facts however show US Club Class gliders (flying in the Sports
Class) has increased over the last four years.

2011 - 14 Club Class gliders flying the Sports Class Nationals
2010 - 13
2009 - 11
2008 - 9

The 2011 Sports Class Nationals had more Club Class gliders than non
Club Class gliders! In fact 63% were Club Class gliders. The contest
name would have been more appropriately named "US Club & Sports Class
Nationals". With Club Class first since there were more Club Class
gliders!

It's interesting to see there is enough Club Class activity without
any promotion or meaningful recognition. It appears the true lack of
interest, activity, progression and growth for the US Club Class lies
within the Rules Committee.

Sean Franke
US Club Class Team 2010 & 2012

[Mike[_37_]]

On Dec 17, 7:08*am, hotelalpha > wrote:
> NOT MUCH CLUB CLASS ACTIVITY. *NO CHANGE IN RULES - is the answer from
> the 2011 SSA Rules Committee Meeting Minutes in Waller Texas November
> 12, 2011.
>
> The facts however show US Club Class gliders (flying in the Sports
> Class) has increased over the last four years.
>
> 2011 - 14 Club Class gliders flying the Sports Class Nationals
> 2010 - 13
> 2009 - 11
> 2008 - 9
>
> The 2011 Sports Class Nationals had more Club Class gliders than non
> Club Class gliders! *In fact 63% were Club Class gliders. *The contest
> name would have been more appropriately named "US Club & Sports Class
> Nationals". *With Club Class first since there were more Club Class
> gliders!
>
> It's interesting to see there is enough Club Class activity without
> any promotion or meaningful recognition. *It appears the true lack of
> interest, activity, progression and growth for the US Club Class lies
> within the Rules Committee.
>
> Sean Franke
> US Club Class Team 2010 & 2012

Please support the Club Class/Modern Class Super Regional Contest at
Moriarty NM.

Practice: 6/9/2012 - 6/10/2012
Contest: 6/11/2012 - 6/16/2012

[John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]]

On Dec 17, 9:08*am, hotelalpha > wrote:
> NOT MUCH CLUB CLASS ACTIVITY. *NO CHANGE IN RULES - is the answer from
> the 2011 SSA Rules Committee Meeting Minutes in Waller Texas November
> 12, 2011.
>
> The facts however show US Club Class gliders (flying in the Sports
> Class) has increased over the last four years.
>
> 2011 - 14 Club Class gliders flying the Sports Class Nationals
> 2010 - 13
> 2009 - 11
> 2008 - 9
>
> The 2011 Sports Class Nationals had more Club Class gliders than non
> Club Class gliders! *In fact 63% were Club Class gliders. *The contest
> name would have been more appropriately named "US Club & Sports Class
> Nationals". *With Club Class first since there were more Club Class
> gliders!
>
> It's interesting to see there is enough Club Class activity without
> any promotion or meaningful recognition. *It appears the true lack of
> interest, activity, progression and growth for the US Club Class lies
> within the Rules Committee.
>
> Sean Franke
> US Club Class Team 2010 & 2012

I think a more appropriate measure of club class interest is "How many
pilots flew a contest for the first time and flew a club class
glider?" The only reason to add classes is if there are more pilots
participating (which is not happening). Unless you are suggesting
doing away with Sports Class...

[hotelalpha]

I don't think a measure of Club Class interest is "first time contest
and Club Class glider". I'm not new to contest flying but prefer Club
Class.

Last year the Sports Class was subsidized by Club Class gliders making
the Sports Class viable. Not a opinion, just fact. Market demand
already speaks. With that said, I think both classes can compliment
each other. If you look at the entry list you will basically find
there are two types of gliders - Club and Modern. Moriarty has proven
the Club/Modern concept works. So to answer your question about doing
away with the Sports Class, my answer is NO - just restructure. Until
this happens the US Club Class will continue to be suppressed for fear
of what might happen to the Sports Class.

[John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]]

On Dec 17, 11:49*am, hotelalpha > wrote:
> I don't think a measure of Club Class interest is "first time contest
> and Club Class glider". *I'm not new to contest flying but prefer Club
> Class.
>
> Last year the Sports Class was subsidized by Club Class gliders making
> the Sports Class viable. *Not a opinion, just fact. *Market demand
> already speaks. *With that said, I think both classes can compliment
> each other. *If you look at the entry list you will basically find
> there are two types of gliders - Club and Modern. *Moriarty has proven
> the Club/Modern concept works. *So to answer your question about doing
> away with the Sports Class, my answer is NO - just restructure. Until
> this happens the US Club Class will continue to be suppressed for fear
> of what might happen to the Sports Class.

You have a good point. The "Modern" aka "FAI Handicapped" concept was
very well received last year. Whether it is viable at the national
level is entirely another thing. You are correct that such a change
wold be good for Club Class, The question is whether the "Modern"
pilots could be enticed to embrace it.It represents a huge change.
However, addressing overall participation is a very high priority for
the RC, Standby for a BB white paper laying out some ideas and
considerations.

[John Cochrane[_2_]]

>
> It's interesting to see there is enough Club Class activity without
> any promotion or meaningful recognition. *It appears the true lack of
> interest, activity, progression and growth for the US Club Class lies
> within the Rules Committee.
>
> Sean Franke
> US Club Class Team 2010 & 2012

No "promotion or meaningful recognition?" World team selection is
restricted to club class gliders. There is a separate club class
scoresheet. We have club class regionals.

It would be a much more effective post if you said what it is exactly
that you want the rules committee to do that we are not doing rather
than just hurl snarky comments.

I presume the answer is "club class nationals" as opposed to just
"club class scoresheet and club class world team selection." But 14
gliders is not enough for a viable new class. So, again presuming, are
you arguing that this small difference in scoresheet will make dozens
of additional pilots appear, enough to overcome the consequent
destruction of sports class? Really? Are there really dozens of
pilots, not now participating in sports or club regionals or
nationals, who are waiting breathlessly for a fully separate contest?
Ok, look up the numbers, make the case. You could start by looking up
the seeding list and coming up with a list of people you think are
qualified but are not coming to sports nationals because current club
recognition is inadequate. (The argument that they don't even come to
club regionals because a separate scoresheet and world team selection
at nationals is inadequate seems pretty far fetched.) "build it and
they will come", by some sort of magic, is not enough.

If this isn't what you're arguing, what is it you want?

Participation is second only to safety on the RC priorities. "Club"
class gliders are by far the least represented in contest soaring. I'm
putting together the numbers now, Over the last two years only 17 out
of the 711 "club" gliders on the FAA database showed up. We want to do
anything we can to get these people out. So, support for club class at
RC is very strong. But so is support for sports class and anything
else that gets people to fly. We need to work together to find a
solution that creates a viable, 20-30 glider minimum, club class while
also not driving away the other 1/2 to 2/3 of the gliders that show up
at sports contests. We're working on that. Do you have productive and
concrete suggestions?

The 2011 poll had an open ended questionnaire about what was keeping
people from coming to contests. Many pilots took a lot of time to
write us lots of thoughtful suggestions. Time and distance were by far
the biggest barriers. Cost is mentioned as well. There was not a
groundswell of "I would fly contests if only there were a pure club
class nationals, not just this separate scoresheet business."

John Cochrane

[hotelalpha]

On Dec 17, 11:01*am, John Cochrane >
wrote:
> > It's interesting to see there is enough Club Class activity without
> > any promotion or meaningful recognition. *It appears the true lack of
> > interest, activity, progression and growth for the US Club Class lies
> > within the Rules Committee.
>
> > Sean Franke
> > US Club Class Team 2010 & 2012
>
> No "promotion or meaningful recognition?" World team selection is
> restricted to club class gliders. There is a separate club class
> scoresheet. We have club class regionals.
>
> It would be a much more effective post if you said what it is exactly
> that you want the rules committee to do that we are not doing rather
> than just hurl snarky comments.
>
> I presume the answer is "club class nationals" as opposed to just
> "club class scoresheet and club class world team selection." But 14
> gliders is not enough for a viable new class. So, again presuming, are
> you arguing that this small difference in scoresheet will make dozens
> of additional pilots appear, enough to overcome the consequent
> destruction of sports class? Really? Are there really dozens of
> pilots, not now participating in sports or club regionals or
> nationals, who are waiting breathlessly for a fully separate contest?
> Ok, look up the numbers, make the case. You could start by looking up
> the seeding list and coming up with a list of people you think are
> qualified but are not coming to sports nationals because current club
> recognition is inadequate. (The argument that they don't even come to
> club regionals because a separate scoresheet and world team selection
> at nationals is inadequate seems pretty far fetched.) "build it and
> they will come", by some sort of magic, is not enough.
>
> If this isn't what you're arguing, what is it you want?
>
> Participation is second only to safety on the RC priorities. "Club"
> class gliders are by far the least represented in contest soaring. I'm
> putting together the numbers now, Over the last two years only 17 out
> of the 711 "club" gliders on the FAA database showed up. We want to do
> anything we can to get these people out. So, support for club class at
> RC is very strong. But so is support for sports class and anything
> else that gets people to fly. We need to work together to find a
> solution that creates a viable, 20-30 glider minimum, club class while
> also not driving away the other 1/2 to 2/3 of the gliders that show up
> at sports contests. We're working on that. Do you have productive and
> concrete suggestions?
>
> The 2011 poll had an open ended questionnaire about what was keeping
> people from coming to contests. Many pilots took a lot of time to
> write us lots of thoughtful suggestions. Time and distance were by far
> the biggest barriers. Cost is mentioned as well. There was not a
> groundswell of "I would fly contests if only there were a pure club
> class nationals, not just this separate scoresheet business."
>
> John Cochrane

Are you suggesting there is "not much Club Class activity" because
only 17/711 show up? I suppose it then can be argued that the World
Class is most popular because most show up at the National level? Is
there really any applicable logic in either statement?

Handicap restriction and a separate score sheet was certainly a step
in the right direction. I applaud the RC for taking that step.
However, there remains no official US Club Class.

If you look back to an earlier post you'll find productive and
concrete suggestions. Will fewer pilots show up to a restructured
Sports Class (Club/Modern)? Unlikely. Will more show up because of
an official Club Class? Unknown, that remains to be seen. I think
there is growth potential without "driving away" gliders by
restructuring. The RC should consider restructuring the Sports Class
nationals into the Club & Modern Class Nationals with two distinct
score sheets. Some Club Class enthusiasts have even expresses
interest in adopting international rules. Arguably this could produce
the most prepared pilot for World level competition.

Sean Franke

[John Cochrane[_2_]]

The RC should consider restructuring the Sports Class
> nationals into the Club & Modern Class Nationals with two distinct
> score sheets.

This is an interesting idea, under consideration. You need a "modern
class" and also a "low performance class" to really replicate sports
class, and now we're spreading awfully thin. But it could work. The
mixed handicap regionals seem to be a success.

>Some Club Class enthusiasts have even expresses
> interest in adopting international rules. *Arguably this could produce
> the most prepared pilot for World level competition.

It could also produce unsafe flying, massive pilot confusion, and a
steep decline in participation. Who wants to go back to mass landouts,
starts up in the clouds or at VNE, finishes 1 inch over the barbed
wire fence, and scoring formulas that make a necessity out of 2 hours
of start gate roulette, then sticking with a big gaggle and all
landing out together? What fun.

World rules are a great idea for a US team camp/contest, not for US
nationals struggling to attract pilots, 99% of which are there for fun
not to prepare for the worlds.

John Cochrane

[hotelalpha]

> It could also produce unsafe flying, massive pilot confusion, and a
> steep decline in participation. Who wants to go back to mass landouts,
> starts up in the clouds or at VNE, finishes 1 inch over the barbed
> wire fence, and scoring formulas that make a necessity out of 2 hours
> of start gate roulette, then sticking with a big gaggle and all
> landing out together? What fun.
>
> World rules are a great idea for a US team camp/contest, not for US
> nationals struggling to attract pilots, 99% of which are there for fun
> not to prepare for the worlds.
>
> John Cochrane

Aren't you being a bit dramatic?

I experienced none of this at Prievidza 2010 WGC. In fact I found
rules simpler and format easier than here in the US. There was one
day with mass landouts due to weather (it happens here in the US too)
otherwise 11 days with almost everyone making it back. I think you
might be confusing rules vs contest management.

Sean Franke

[John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]]

On Dec 17, 7:39*pm, hotelalpha > wrote:
> > It could also produce unsafe flying, massive pilot confusion, and a
> > steep decline in participation. Who wants to go back to mass landouts,
> > starts up in the clouds or at VNE, finishes 1 inch over the barbed
> > wire fence, and scoring formulas that make a necessity out of 2 hours
> > of start gate roulette, then sticking with a big gaggle and all
> > landing out together? What fun.
>
> > World rules are a great idea for a US team camp/contest, not for US
> > nationals struggling to attract pilots, 99% of which are there for fun
> > not to prepare for the worlds.
>
> > John Cochrane
>
> Aren't you being a bit dramatic?
>
> I experienced none of this at Prievidza 2010 WGC. *In fact I found
> rules simpler and format easier than here in the US. *There was one
> day with mass landouts due to weather (it happens here in the US too)
> otherwise 11 days with almost everyone making it back. I think you
> might be confusing rules vs contest management.
>
> Sean Franke

IMO not even a little. The following accident is a direct result of a
rules system that provides huge point incentive to make it back to the
airport rather than land 1km short - with disastrous consequences.
This is an excerpt from the IGC 2011 President's Report. The entire
report is worth reading as to pilot behavior at WGCs.

<snip>
accident occurred at the WGC in Hungary where a glider on approach to
landing collided with a truck passing along the road adjacent to the
end of the runway. The glider pilot was uninjured despite the glider
being destroyed in the subsequent uncontrollable landing, but
regretfully the truck driver suffered severe facial injuries when the
wing tip struck him. I understand that surgeons have been able to
restore sight in one of his eyes.
<snip>

Entire report:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDkQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fai.org%2Fcomponent%2Fphocado wnload%2Fcategory%2F1168-annexes%3Fdownload%3D3517%3Aigc-presidents-report&ei=ZuvtTpbWPKX50gGKmrznCQ&usg=AFQjCNHehjoYWTA8fkpu9FRwVWN4eQBNpQ&sig2=f0QElv5Q0LDOL-Cv08q40Q

[hotelalpha]

On Dec 18, 5:36*am, "John Godfrey (QT)" >
wrote:
> On Dec 17, 7:39*pm, hotelalpha > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > It could also produce unsafe flying, massive pilot confusion, and a
> > > steep decline in participation. Who wants to go back to mass landouts,
> > > starts up in the clouds or at VNE, finishes 1 inch over the barbed
> > > wire fence, and scoring formulas that make a necessity out of 2 hours
> > > of start gate roulette, then sticking with a big gaggle and all
> > > landing out together? What fun.
>
> > > World rules are a great idea for a US team camp/contest, not for US
> > > nationals struggling to attract pilots, 99% of which are there for fun
> > > not to prepare for the worlds.
>
> > > John Cochrane
>
> > Aren't you being a bit dramatic?
>
> > I experienced none of this at Prievidza 2010 WGC. *In fact I found
> > rules simpler and format easier than here in the US. *There was one
> > day with mass landouts due to weather (it happens here in the US too)
> > otherwise 11 days with almost everyone making it back. I think you
> > might be confusing rules vs contest management.
>
> > Sean Franke
>
> IMO not even a little. The following accident is a direct result of a
> rules system that provides huge point incentive to make it back to the
> airport rather than land 1km short - with disastrous consequences.
> This is an excerpt from the IGC 2011 President's Report. *The entire
> report is worth reading as to pilot behavior at WGCs.
>
> <snip>
> accident occurred at the WGC in Hungary where a glider on approach to
> landing collided with a truck passing along the road adjacent to the
> end of the runway. The glider pilot was uninjured despite the glider
> being destroyed in the subsequent uncontrollable landing, but
> regretfully the truck driver suffered severe facial injuries when the
> wing tip struck him. I understand that surgeons have been able to
> restore sight in one of his eyes.
> <snip>
>
> Entire report:http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0C...

Was the accident due to rules or contest management creating a
dangerous environment?

No incentive for a low finish in Prievidza. There was a 3 km finish
ring with a minimum altitude.

I think there are misconceptions regarding WGC rules which ultimately
influence our rules.

Sean Franke

[[email protected]]

On Dec 18, 12:18*pm, hotelalpha > wrote:
> On Dec 18, 5:36*am, "John Godfrey (QT)" >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 17, 7:39*pm, hotelalpha > wrote:
>
> > > > It could also produce unsafe flying, massive pilot confusion, and a
> > > > steep decline in participation. Who wants to go back to mass landouts,
> > > > starts up in the clouds or at VNE, finishes 1 inch over the barbed
> > > > wire fence, and scoring formulas that make a necessity out of 2 hours
> > > > of start gate roulette, then sticking with a big gaggle and all
> > > > landing out together? What fun.
>
> > > > World rules are a great idea for a US team camp/contest, not for US
> > > > nationals struggling to attract pilots, 99% of which are there for fun
> > > > not to prepare for the worlds.
>
> > > > John Cochrane
>
> > > Aren't you being a bit dramatic?
>
> > > I experienced none of this at Prievidza 2010 WGC. *In fact I found
> > > rules simpler and format easier than here in the US. *There was one
> > > day with mass landouts due to weather (it happens here in the US too)
> > > otherwise 11 days with almost everyone making it back. I think you
> > > might be confusing rules vs contest management.
>
> > > Sean Franke
>
> > IMO not even a little. The following accident is a direct result of a
> > rules system that provides huge point incentive to make it back to the
> > airport rather than land 1km short - with disastrous consequences.
> > This is an excerpt from the IGC 2011 President's Report. *The entire
> > report is worth reading as to pilot behavior at WGCs.
>
> > <snip>
> > accident occurred at the WGC in Hungary where a glider on approach to
> > landing collided with a truck passing along the road adjacent to the
> > end of the runway. The glider pilot was uninjured despite the glider
> > being destroyed in the subsequent uncontrollable landing, but
> > regretfully the truck driver suffered severe facial injuries when the
> > wing tip struck him. I understand that surgeons have been able to
> > restore sight in one of his eyes.
> > <snip>
>
> > Entire report:http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0C...
>
> Was the accident due to rules or contest management creating a
> dangerous environment?
>
> No incentive for a low finish in Prievidza. *There was a 3 km finish
> ring with a minimum altitude.
>
> I think there are misconceptions regarding WGC rules which ultimately
> influence our rules.
>
> Sean Franke- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Possibly you could give some examples of the misconceptions you refer
to.
The RC has only one current member that has not flown on the US team.
It would be worth
knowing what you think the members don't understand correctly.
UH
US Club Class WGC teamGawler and Musbach.