Re: Lightspeed Battery Box Warning

[Justin Case]

Lightspeed seems to know everything about all of their problems and
they all seem infrequent. Just too many infrequent problems for me.


On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 21:45:22 GMT, Sydney Hoeltzli
> wrote:

>
>Just got back from our annual jaunt to NW MA. Might write more
>later (have I mentioned recently how much I abhore flying or
>driving through the state of Ohio, no offense intended to anyone
>living there)
>
>Anyway, landing at a fuel stop on the return trip, husband
>said batteries were low in my new Lightspeed 30 3G (pilot
>gets to use it). Went in the FBO, lunch, wx, came out to
>preflight while husband filed (VFR in 1800 ft ceilings,
>wanted me to fly it, such a nice guy). Replaced batteries
>in Lightspeed 30 3G.
>
>Went back into FBO to change 3 yr olds wet undies for pullup,
>get the glad tidings on who gets to fly in what from DH.
>Thanks. I think. What does Louisville Approach have against
>small airplanes bopping around in 6 miles vis at 2000 MSL?
>You'd think I was scud running or something. Anyway, I
>digress.
>
>10 minutes later opened plane to hop in, stench of burning
>plastic.
>
>Sniffer traced to 30-3G battery box, which had been left
>lying across the yoke.
>
>Batteries were almost too hot to touch. Hot enough to
>have melted the plastic of the battery box. Holy S***.
>
>Lightspeed is sending replacement UPS red. But. This is
>a known (though infrequent) problem. Caveat Lightspeed
>User; don't leave your **** battery box lying on anything
>expensive or any plastic part of the plane it would be a
>PITA to replace. 'Cuz that puppy was Hot Hot Hot.
>
>Love the Lightspeed comfort; like the Lightspeed NR;
>Lightspeed QC needs some d*** ketchup. Maybe they oughtta
>try to hire someone away from Dave Clark (alternatively
>maybe someone at Dave Clamp ought to hire an ergonomics
>guy away from Lightspeed).
>
>Hola!
>Sydney

[G.R. Patterson III]

Justin Case wrote:
>
> Lightspeed seems to know everything about all of their problems and
> they all seem infrequent. Just too many infrequent problems for me.

I take your point. As a matter of curiousity, would you prefer that to hearing
"Never heard of that problem before." That's what I get out of Maule Air. I
would never accuse them of lying, but I can think it.

George Patterson
The optimist feels that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The
pessimist is afraid that he's correct.
James Branch Cavel

[EDR]

> Just got back from our annual jaunt to NW MA. Might write more
> later (have I mentioned recently how much I abhore flying or
> driving through the state of Ohio, no offense intended to anyone
> living there)

Driving I can understand, but flying through and around Ohio is a
wonderful. With the exception of the southeast corner of the state, you
are almost always withing gliding distance of a landing field.
Where's your beef? (Pun intended, Wendy's is based in Columbus OH).

[Dennis O'Connor]

LS owners seem to fall into two groups... Those who have never had any
problem over a number of years of continuous use, and those who seem to
lurch from crises to crises... Strange...

Denny

"Justin Case" > wrote in message
...
> Lightspeed seems to know everything about all of their problems and
> they all seem infrequent. Just too many infrequent problems for me.

[Sydney Hoeltzli]

Dennis O'Connor wrote:
> LS owners seem to fall into two groups... Those who have never had any
> problem over a number of years of continuous use, and those who seem to
> lurch from crises to crises... Strange...

Well, I guess I must be the exception which "proves" your rule, since
in general we have been very pleased with our Lightspeeds and while
we have had a previous problem with my 20Ks, I certainly wouldn't
describe it as a 'crisis'. Nor would I personally describe 2 problems
in 5 yrs ownership of 3 different headsets as "lurching from crisis
to crisis".

What seems strange to me is your perception, actually, but that
wouldn't be the first time.

Cheers,
Sydney

[Sydney Hoeltzli]

EDR wrote:
>>Just got back from our annual jaunt to NW MA. Might write more
>>later (have I mentioned recently how much I abhore flying or
>>driving through the state of Ohio, no offense intended to anyone
>>living there)

> Driving I can understand, but flying through and around Ohio is a
> wonderful. With the exception of the southeast corner of the state, you
> are almost always withing gliding distance of a landing field.
> Where's your beef? (Pun intended, Wendy's is based in Columbus OH).

Our beef is that flying through OH in summer no matter what the
forecast is when we take off from MA or NY, we always seem to
wind up with the worst kind of convective activity to dodge
(convective activity with clouds in multiple layers). Ohio
seems to be like a cork in a bottle with Lake Erie to the N
holding the wx in place and the gulf to the s. pumping in
moisture whenever there's a high in the right place (often).
The forecast may be for benign IMC (no tstorms, no ice), one
gets into the clouds and .... uh-oh. Or, the forecast is for
reasonable VFR 2 hrs later .... uh-oh.

Or, as the FSS briefer said to me when I responded to his forecast
with "well, I'm concerned if we do *that* we'll run into *this*,
even though it's not forecast": "you've done this before, haven't
you?" He was also somewhat amused that I responded to his canned
"VFR not recommended" with "well, this isn't good IFR weather"

Ohio is one of the main reasons a stormscope is tops on our want
list.

Florida is the other.

Anyway, as far's I'm concerned Ohio is a giant flight-block lying
between the NE and the midwest. When we visited IAG several times
a year we flew home N of the lake half the time just to stay away.
Yesterday we flew from Ohio to St. Louis via Lexington KY. Gack.

Coshocton, OH is a really nice place, though.

Cheers,
Sydney

[Jay Honeck]

> What seems strange to me is your perception, actually, but that
> wouldn't be the first time.

I believe Denny is perceiving this:

The only reason many Lightspeed owners have NOT had repeated problems with
broken wires at the plug is because they specifically lay the battery box on
the floor, or tuck it in a side pocket. This removes the weight of the
battery box from the inadequately designed wire and plug assembly, and keeps
the wires from breaking.

NOW it has come to light that laying the battery box on the floor (or
tucking it in a pocket) can result in a conflagration of your aircraft.

This is, indeed, a "crisis" of quality control, in my opinion. And, as I
have repeatedly stated in the past, is truly a shame, as we absolutely,
positively LOVE our Lightspeed headsets.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
"Sydney Hoeltzli" > wrote in message
...
> Dennis O'Connor wrote:
> > LS owners seem to fall into two groups... Those who have never had any
> > problem over a number of years of continuous use, and those who seem to
> > lurch from crises to crises... Strange...
>
> Well, I guess I must be the exception which "proves" your rule, since
> in general we have been very pleased with our Lightspeeds and while
> we have had a previous problem with my 20Ks, I certainly wouldn't
> describe it as a 'crisis'. Nor would I personally describe 2 problems
> in 5 yrs ownership of 3 different headsets as "lurching from crisis
> to crisis".
>
>
> Cheers,
> Sydney
>

[James M. Knox]

Sydney Hoeltzli > wrote in news:3F0AC7D5.9020908
@swbell.net:

> Nor would I personally describe 2 problems
> in 5 yrs ownership of 3 different headsets as "lurching from crisis
> to crisis".

Sydney,

First off, thanks for the post. I would be interested in knowing what
actually shorted out (sounds like a spring contact or some such, most
likely, in the battery box).

You are right that, compared to having, oh say, a wing spar break, it's
hardly a "crisis." OTOH, I've got two Peltor's and a Dave Clark ANR -
average life 10 years - and never had a problem (other that physically
wearing out the earpads) with any of them. So you can see that, relative
to the "crowd," you are well to one side of the curve.

[Not that we wouldn't expect you to stand out in a crowd regardless. <G>]

-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331
Austin, Tx 78721
-----------------------------------------------

[Sydney Hoeltzli]

Jay Honeck wrote:

Actually, Jay, if you reread Denny's post carefully, I don't think
this is what he's seeing or refering to as "some owners lurch from
crisis to crisis" but it's not worth addressing further.

> The only reason many Lightspeed owners have NOT had repeated problems with
> broken wires at the plug is because they specifically lay the battery box on
> the floor, or tuck it in a side pocket. This removes the weight of the
> battery box from the inadequately designed wire and plug assembly, and keeps
> the wires from breaking.

> NOW it has come to light that laying the battery box on the floor (or
> tucking it in a pocket) can result in a conflagration of your aircraft.

Actually I think that's overstating the possible outcomes considerably.

What happens is this. The battery box shorts. The batteries get hot.
The battery box gets hot. The battery box begins to melt. The
batteries lose contact w/ the deformed battery box, the short circuit
is broken, and the heating stops.

The worst case is if the battery box happens to get hot enough to
melt low-temperature plastic trim, which can be expensive and costly
to replace.

The fabrics used in the interior of the aircraft had durned well better
withstand a much higher temperature without igniting, or someone
installed the wrong stuff. Likewise, it should not get hot enough to
ignite paper.

I discussed this in detail with the Lightspeed engineer. DH, who has
extensive training in fire hazard prevention, concurs. Of course, there
can always be some combination of factors which lead to a different
result.

So I wouldn't worry that your Lightspeed battery box is likely to
cause conflagration of your aircraft.

However, I would make sure you don't place it somewhere which might
melt and cost you time and $$. For example, we've been securing our
20K and 25XL battery boxes with velcro (sewn to the plane interior,
glued to the battery box). This is gonna stop, because velcro melts
at rather low temperature and melted velcro would trash my interior
panels.

A fabric pocket should actually be a good place, provided the fabric
meets standard aircraft flammability tests.

Cheers,
Sydney


>
> This is, indeed, a "crisis" of quality control, in my opinion. And, as I
> have repeatedly stated in the past, is truly a shame, as we absolutely,
> positively LOVE our Lightspeed headsets.

[Sydney Hoeltzli]

James M. Knox wrote:

> First off, thanks for the post. I would be interested in knowing what
> actually shorted out (sounds like a spring contact or some such, most
> likely, in the battery box).

I think that's an excellent educated guess. The point of maximum
deformation was just to the side of a spring contact. There appeared
to be some material covering the bottom of the box which might have
been installed off-center, leaving an area where a short could occur,
but I'm not sure about this.

> You are right that, compared to having, oh say, a wing spar break, it's
> hardly a "crisis." OTOH, I've got two Peltor's and a Dave Clark ANR -
> average life 10 years - and never had a problem (other that physically
> wearing out the earpads) with any of them. So you can see that, relative
> to the "crowd," you are well to one side of the curve.

Well, Denny was specifically referring to different groups of
*Lightspeed* owners, so I don't think your perception applies to
his post. He posits two different populations of *Lightspeed*
owners, those whose headsets are trouble free and those who "lurch
from crisis to crisis".

However, you get no argument from me: I love my Lightspeeds because they
are comfortable comfortable comfortable whereas after about an hour
I want to throw DC's out the window. But on the "longevity" and
"durability" front, I must admit they do not measure up. Their customer
service and support is *excellent* -- but it has to be. I would much
prefer far less need for said good support.

By the way, after calling Lightspeed Customer service yesterday about
4:30 central time, I had a new headset in hand (!!!!) by 9:30 central
time.

> [Not that we wouldn't expect you to stand out in a crowd regardless. <G>]

Why thank you!

Cheers,
Sydney

[Wayne]

In my old boyscout days we used steel wool and a 6 volt lantern battery
with some of the most flamable papers and grasses etc to attempt to start a
fire. It took forever and many never got them to ignite. I agree that what
happened to you was not a fire hazard. You'd have a better chance to win the
lottery than to have that ignite on it's own, or maybe getting struck by
lightning, twice.

Wayne

> The worst case is if the battery box happens to get hot enough to
> melt low-temperature plastic trim, which can be expensive and costly
> to replace.
>
> The fabrics used in the interior of the aircraft had durned well better
> withstand a much higher temperature without igniting, or someone
> installed the wrong stuff. Likewise, it should not get hot enough to
> ignite paper.

[Dennis O'Connor]

Ummm, I see my name mentioned, which tends to wake me up... Then I see a
quote of my analogy of 'lurching from crises to crises'... This brings me
to the fully cognizant condition (rare) so I look at my post on that
topic... Hmmm, verb and subject are not clear - my fault...
For those who may have garnered the idea that I was back handedly, character
assassinating Sydney, et al., as being somehow at fault for their LS
headsets failing, that is wrong... LS needs to improve their product -
especially where the battery box melts down - jeez!

Anyway, I was simply noting that we see posts from the one group who
seemingly never have a problem with their LS headsets, and posts from the
other group who's LS headsets seem to be jinxed - with little or no middle
ground, i.e. no bell curve.. As I said; strange...

Denny
"Sydney Hoeltzli" > wrote in message
...
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> Actually, Jay, if you reread Denny's post carefully, I don't think
> this is what he's seeing or refering to as "some owners lurch from
> crisis to crisis" but it's not worth addressing further.

[Dennis O'Connor]

Tsk, tsk, Sydney... Bad hair day?

Denny

"Sydney Hoeltzli" > wrote in message
...
>> What seems strange to me is your perception, actually, but that
> wouldn't be the first time.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Sydney Hoeltzli wrote:
>
> So they definately try to make good when there's a problem.

Practice makes perfect.

George Patterson
The optimist feels that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The
pessimist is afraid that he's correct.
James Branch Cavel

[Jay Honeck]

> I discussed this in detail with the Lightspeed engineer. DH, who has
> extensive training in fire hazard prevention, concurs. Of course, there
> can always be some combination of factors which lead to a different
> result.

This is good to know -- thanks!

> However, I would make sure you don't place it somewhere which might
> melt and cost you time and $$. For example, we've been securing our
> 20K and 25XL battery boxes with velcro (sewn to the plane interior,
> glued to the battery box). This is gonna stop, because velcro melts
> at rather low temperature and melted velcro would trash my interior
> panels.

I've spent over $1000 with LightSpeed, and I sure don't expect their
headsets to melt down in my airplane.

Of course, I didn't expect to return all three pair for multiple repairs,
either.

I am buying our fourth ANR headset at OSH 2003 later this month. It most
certainly will NOT be Lightspeed brand.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
>
> A fabric pocket should actually be a good place, provided the fabric
> meets standard aircraft flammability tests.
>
> Cheers,
> Sydney
>
>
> >
> > This is, indeed, a "crisis" of quality control, in my opinion. And, as
I
> > have repeatedly stated in the past, is truly a shame, as we absolutely,
> > positively LOVE our Lightspeed headsets.
>

[Jay Honeck]

> > I am buying our fourth ANR headset at OSH 2003 later this month. It
most
> > certainly will NOT be Lightspeed brand.
>
> I guess I'm willing to give them another chance, because I just
> haven't found anything out there which is as comfortable and quiet
> with a better reputation.

Well, brand loyalty only goes so far.

Another example: I was firmly, 100% behind Lowrance, and we LOVED our
Airmap 300 -- until it started to flake out on us last month. Still, I was
with them, and we were really excited to hear about the new Airmap 500. I
wanted to see it at OSH in the worst way!

That is, until I discovered that -- after just four years(!) -- Lowrance is
no longer supporting my 300. Repairs for my flaky little GPS were simply no
longer available.

Poof, that was the end of MY enthusiasm and brand loyalty. Garmin still
supports every GPS they've ever made, and THAT says more about a company
than data sheets or marketing ploys, any day.

Thus, soon a Garmin 196 will be resting comfortably on my yoke, God willin'
and the crick don't rise... And some OTHER brand of ANRs will be setting
upon my balding pate...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Steve House]

Assuming the problems reported are legit, this seems to indicate a quality
assurance issue with the manufacturer. I was just looking over the
Lightspeed web site and didn't see any indication that their headsets were
TSO'd. Now I will be the first to admit I'm a newby so I my impressions may
be in error and as such take anything I say with a grain of salt but my
understanding of what TSO means is that 1: the product was type accepted,
passed testing to insure that it did what it was supposed to and was
compatible with and did not interact negatively with the other aircraft
systems, and 2: that the manufacturer has quality assurance programs in
effect that would insure all products coming off the line met the same
performance standards as the samples submitted for approval. I may be
wrong, but it seems to me to be foolish to buy non-TSO'ed equipment for
permanent aircraft installation or for use by the PIC or FO if there is one.
If my understanding of the QA issues regarding TSO is correct, this would
certainly increase the price of the product because testing of each and
every unit coming off the line is certainly going to be more expensive than
testing randomly selected samples. Because of the unforgiving nature of
aviation, uncertainty of product quality where safety of flight is concerned
is something I personally can't afford at any price and battery packs that
spontaneously burst into flame certainly seem to me to be a safety issue,
even if they're carried enclosed in fire resistant pouches.


"Dennis O'Connor" > wrote in message
...
> LS owners seem to fall into two groups... Those who have never had any
> problem over a number of years of continuous use, and those who seem to
> lurch from crises to crises... Strange...
>
> Denny
>
> "Justin Case" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Lightspeed seems to know everything about all of their problems and
> > they all seem infrequent. Just too many infrequent problems for me.
>
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

Steve House wrote:
>
> I was just looking over the
> Lightspeed web site and didn't see any indication that their headsets were
> TSO'd.

Well, I just checked out the Bose, Sennheiser, and David Clark web sites,
and it seems that none of their ANR headsets are TSO'd either.

George Patterson
The optimist feels that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The
pessimist is afraid that he's correct.
James Branch Cavel

[Jim Weir]

"Steve House" >
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

Now I will be the first to admit I'm a newby so I my impressions may
->be in error and as such take anything I say with a grain of salt

OK, that's a good start.


but my
->understanding of what TSO means is that 1: the product was type accepted,

Nope. It means the manufacturer tested the unit in accordance with the
Technical Service Order and it met some arbitrary specification. Look up the
TSO for audio panels some day. There are still vestiges of vacuum tube
terminology.

->passed testing to insure that it did what it was supposed to and was
->compatible with and did not interact negatively with the other aircraft
->systems,

Nope. That's the installer/approver's job.


and 2: that the manufacturer has quality assurance programs in
->effect that would insure all products coming off the line met the same
->performance standards as the samples submitted for approval.

Nope. That's PMA.

I may be
->wrong, but it seems to me to be foolish to buy non-TSO'ed equipment for
->permanent aircraft installation or for use by the PIC or FO if there is one.

And how many airplanes did you say you have owned or paid the maintenance bill
on?


->If my understanding of the QA issues regarding TSO is correct, this would
->certainly increase the price of the product because testing of each and
->every unit coming off the line is certainly going to be more expensive than
->testing randomly selected samples.

Even if the FAA approved testing procedure calls for random sampling? Not
hardly.


Because of the unforgiving nature of
->aviation, uncertainty of product quality where safety of flight is concerned
->is something I personally can't afford at any price and battery packs that
->spontaneously burst into flame certainly seem to me to be a safety issue,
->even if they're carried enclosed in fire resistant pouches.

Did anybody say anything about bursting into flame? Sydney said the damn thing
got hot to the point of softening the plastic case. Don't build hysteria with
wild-ass projections.

And, if you are so worried about product quality, then build 'em yourself. That
way you have 100% control over the product and performance.

www.rstengineering.com {;-)


Jim



Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Jay Honeck]

> And, if you are so worried about product quality, then build 'em yourself.
That
> way you have 100% control over the product and performance.

Hey Jim -- why don't you guys build us some GOOD ANR headsets?

I'd buy 'em!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Sydney Hoeltzli]

Steve House wrote:
> Assuming the problems reported are legit

In other words, maybe I'm an idiot or making this up? Good start....

>
, this seems to indicate a quality
> assurance issue with the manufacturer.

No argument there.

> I was just looking over the
> Lightspeed web site and didn't see any indication that their headsets were
> TSO'd.

True. Neither are any of the other ANR headsets AFAIK

Now I will be the first to admit I'm a newby so I my impressions may
> be in error and as such take anything I say with a grain of salt but my
> understanding of what TSO means is that 1: the product was type accepted,
> passed testing to insure that it did what it was supposed to and was
> compatible with and did not interact negatively with the other aircraft
> systems, and 2: that the manufacturer has quality assurance programs in
> effect that would insure all products coming off the line met the same
> performance standards as the samples submitted for approval.

Negative. What TSO'd means is that the product met the "type
standards order" the FAA has produced for that type of product.

The TSO for a given product may literally be decades old, and a
product which meets it may (of necessity) be inferior to a product
which does not.

The TSO says nothing about testing/compatibility with other
aircraft systems.

The TSO says nothing about quality assurance. It simply says that
the product, as designed and evaluated, met the standards of the order.
QA is what a "PMA" is supposed to be about.

> I may be wrong, but it seems to me to be foolish to buy non-TSO'ed
> equipment for permanent aircraft installation or for use by the
> PIC or FO if there is one.

We-eeeel, when you're making your purchasing and maintenance decisions,
you're entitled to chose according to your convictions.

Just remember this: Bernoulli not Marconi makes the plane fly.

And here's another little tidbit for you: I've been in the
clag with a TSO'd transponder which was emitting smoke and the
charming odure of frying electronics. So I wouldn't bet the
rent on the TSO quality thing.

> is something I personally can't afford at any price and battery packs that
> spontaneously burst into flame certainly seem to me to be a safety issue,

Who on earth talked about "battery packs that spontaneously burst
into flame?"

Jay (who has not experienced this problem) wondered if this could
happen, and I explained: no.

The thing did get durned hot, and could conceivably have melted
low-temperature plastic on which it was placed. It was not hot
enough to ignite either paper or plastic and was unlikely to become
so, because the plastic deformed and ended the short circuit
long before that point.

HTH,
Sydney

[Mike Long]

Personally, I'm giving up on them. When they are fixed, I'll sell them
but I guess I'd better give an MBG :)

Mike

Sydney Hoeltzli > wrote in message >...
> Sydney Hoeltzli wrote:
>
> > Sniffer traced to 30-3G battery box, which had been left
> > lying across the yoke.
> >
> > Batteries were almost too hot to touch. Hot enough to
> > have melted the plastic of the battery box. Holy S***.
> >
> > Lightspeed is sending replacement UPS red. But. This is
> > a known (though infrequent) problem. Caveat Lightspeed
> > User; don't leave your **** battery box lying on anything
> > expensive or any plastic part of the plane it would be a
> > PITA to replace.
>
> Just a follow-up: to Lightspeed's credit, having called
> them after 4 pm yesterday, I already have the replacement
> headset in hand before 10 am today.
>
> So they definately try to make good when there's a problem.
>
> I just wish they built a headset with fewer problems!!!!
>
> Cheers,
> Sydney

[Ryan Ferguson]

Sydney Hoeltzli wrote:

> Just a follow-up: to Lightspeed's credit, having called
> them after 4 pm yesterday, I already have the replacement
> headset in hand before 10 am today.
>
> So they definately try to make good when there's a problem.
>
> I just wish they built a headset with fewer problems!!!!

So do I. Their commitment to making good is impressive. Every time my
old Lightspeeds were sent in for repair, they came back with amazing
speed. Unfortunately, the quality control is simply not there.

There are customers out there who have no problems with Lightspeed
products. I have no doubt about that. There are also many who seem to
have nothing but problems. Lightspeed's 15, 20, and 25 series is the
only line of headsets I've ever seen removed from the stock of one of
the largest pilot shops in the United States. I know the explicit
reason for this because said pilot shop is in my home FBO, and I know
the pilot shop manager. Reason for removal: too many returns. The shop
has (had?) a commendable policy of handling the shipping costs on any
defective units sold via their shop. Whenever I had a problem, I'd stop
in and drop off the headset and say "Bernie, send 'em in again." I
personally utilized this service approximately 8 times on two separate
Lightspeed 25XL headsets before the shop offered to take them back
permanently and apply the new purchase price towards two pair of Bose
Xs. I accepted their offer and have been extremely happy with the Bose
X for the last two years. One pair went back one time for the sheepskin
headband coming loose, and... that was it. Bose repaired the headset
free, as expected. (BTW, yes, the Bose X are good enough to be worthy
of the 4-digit price tag. I would *never* have bought them under
different circumstances, but it's clear to me now that they are indeed
worth it!)

I can see the perspective of happy Lightspeed customers who appear to
have essentially lucked out with a good pair. I say, good for them, and
they have no reason to do anything differently. When the product
doesn't break, it's damn good. The price is right, it's comfortable,
and the ANR is good enough for the money. But I think we have to be
realistic and recognize that Lightspeed does have a problem on their
hands here. You just don't hear these complaints about other headsets
in this (and in many cases, below!) price range. For these issues to
come up consistently, there has to be a problem. It's not isolated to a
few bad headsets.

-Ryan
CFI-ASE-AME, CFI-RH, CP-ASMEL-IA, CP-RH, AGI

[Sydney Hoeltzli]

Ryan Ferguson wrote:
> Sydney Hoeltzli wrote:
>>Just a follow-up: to Lightspeed's credit, having called
>>them after 4 pm yesterday, I already have the replacement
>>headset in hand before 10 am today.
>>
>>So they definately try to make good when there's a problem.
>>
>>I just wish they built a headset with fewer problems!!!!

> So do I. Their commitment to making good is impressive. Every time my
> old Lightspeeds were sent in for repair, they came back with amazing
> speed. Unfortunately, the quality control is simply not there.

Yep. I think that sums it up.

Cheers,
Sydney

[Thomas Borchert]

Sydney,

ah, a voice of reason. Thanks!

"What comes to light now..." Jeeze!
--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Steve House]

Check again - DC says all theirs are. Haven't looked at Bose and Sennheiser
lately.


"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Steve House wrote:
> >
> > I was just looking over the
> > Lightspeed web site and didn't see any indication that their headsets
were
> > TSO'd.
>
> Well, I just checked out the Bose, Sennheiser, and David Clark web sites,
> and it seems that none of their ANR headsets are TSO'd either.
>
> George Patterson
> The optimist feels that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The
> pessimist is afraid that he's correct.
> James Branch Cavel

[[email protected]]

In rec.aviation.owning Mike Long > wrote:
: Personally, I'm giving up on them. When they are fixed, I'll sell them
: but I guess I'd better give an MBG :)

: Mike

Slightly off topic, but I was wondering if anyone's got any
thoughts on Lightspeed's Solo and Cross-country headsets. Different form
factor, and not as active. They seem pretty flimsy by the pictures, but
the passive on the X-C (along with mild active) seems like a winner to me.
Anyone used these?

I'm not really excited about buying any of the 15/20/25/30 K,XL,G
series because they seems pretty flimsy, have extraordinarily lousy
passive attenuation (read: LOUD out of active cancellation above 300 Hz),
and artificually boost the radio's voice frequencies to an uncomfortable
level. I'm sure the boosting is for "clarify" of old ears that are
already fried from 40 years of naked flying, but I'm trying to keep mine
good.

'Nuff ranting on the popular Lightspeed models. :)

-Cory


--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

[Steve House]

Nope - does not mean I'm either an idiot OR making it up. It means I'm
aware that my knowledge is incomplete. Sheesh, from the sounds of your and
Jim's posts, anyone with less experience than an airline captain or a
military flight instructor who also hold advanced engineering degrees should
just keep their mouths shut in the presence of their betters. Now where was
that cotton you needed pickin'?



"Sydney Hoeltzli" > wrote in message
...
> Steve House wrote:
> > Assuming the problems reported are legit
>
> In other words, maybe I'm an idiot or making this up? Good start....
>
> >
> , this seems to indicate a quality
> > assurance issue with the manufacturer.
>
> No argument there.
>
> > I was just looking over the
> > Lightspeed web site and didn't see any indication that their headsets
were
> > TSO'd.
>
> True. Neither are any of the other ANR headsets AFAIK
>
> Now I will be the first to admit I'm a newby so I my impressions may
> > be in error and as such take anything I say with a grain of salt but my
> > understanding of what TSO means is that 1: the product was type
accepted,
> > passed testing to insure that it did what it was supposed to and was
> > compatible with and did not interact negatively with the other aircraft
> > systems, and 2: that the manufacturer has quality assurance programs in
> > effect that would insure all products coming off the line met the same
> > performance standards as the samples submitted for approval.
>
> Negative. What TSO'd means is that the product met the "type
> standards order" the FAA has produced for that type of product.
>
> The TSO for a given product may literally be decades old, and a
> product which meets it may (of necessity) be inferior to a product
> which does not.
>
> The TSO says nothing about testing/compatibility with other
> aircraft systems.
>
> The TSO says nothing about quality assurance. It simply says that
> the product, as designed and evaluated, met the standards of the order.
> QA is what a "PMA" is supposed to be about.
>
> > I may be wrong, but it seems to me to be foolish to buy non-TSO'ed
> > equipment for permanent aircraft installation or for use by the
> > PIC or FO if there is one.
>
> We-eeeel, when you're making your purchasing and maintenance decisions,
> you're entitled to chose according to your convictions.
>
> Just remember this: Bernoulli not Marconi makes the plane fly.
>
> And here's another little tidbit for you: I've been in the
> clag with a TSO'd transponder which was emitting smoke and the
> charming odure of frying electronics. So I wouldn't bet the
> rent on the TSO quality thing.
>
> > is something I personally can't afford at any price and battery packs
that
> > spontaneously burst into flame certainly seem to me to be a safety
issue,
>
> Who on earth talked about "battery packs that spontaneously burst
> into flame?"
>
> Jay (who has not experienced this problem) wondered if this could
> happen, and I explained: no.
>
> The thing did get durned hot, and could conceivably have melted
> low-temperature plastic on which it was placed. It was not hot
> enough to ignite either paper or plastic and was unlikely to become
> so, because the plastic deformed and ended the short circuit
> long before that point.
>
> HTH,
> Sydney
>

[Sydney Hoeltzli]

Steve House wrote:
> Right - the accusation that I'm an idiot is "demonstrating expertise"

Where did anyone accuse you of being an idiot?

Quote carefully, now --- it's all on Google, go on, have a good look...

>Just
> because it's the internet does not mean that the normal practices of polite
> human interaction are somehow suspended.

Exactly my point. Do you begin "polite human interaction" by
responding to someone's information with "assuming this is legit..."?

That's damned rude in my book, and won't make you welcome in the
conversations I've experienced.

> I'm an old hand at the Net and Usenet, having used it daily since about
> 1980.

Without improving your ability to read accurately and communicate
precisely, it would appear.

Personally when I seek information, I start out with questions.

"Is it important to purchase only a TSO'd headset? What does TSO really
mean? Do pilots find that TSO'd headsets are more reliable than
non-TSO'd headsets?" not by making a buttload of assertions including
a total fabrication about battery boxes bursting into flame.

The latter will get you a faster response for sure, but evidently
not of the kind you find enjoyable.

How can someone who asserts he's been on USENET for more than a decade
not know this? Beats me.

Cheers,
Sydney

[Sydney Hoeltzli]

wrote:
> I'm not really excited about buying any of the 15/20/25/30 K,XL,G
> series because they seems pretty flimsy, have extraordinarily lousy
> passive attenuation (read: LOUD out of active cancellation above 300 Hz),
> and artificually boost the radio's voice frequencies to an uncomfortable
> level. I'm sure the boosting is for "clarify" of old ears that are
> already fried from 40 years of naked flying, but I'm trying to keep mine
> good.

Cory,

I'm afraid I don't follow your critique of the K/XL/G series.
The radio's voice frequencies can be adjusted to any level you
like with the volume control. I have very good ears and the
level is not uncomfortable, in fact it is too low on the
minimum volume setting in our plane. If something was uncomfortable,
and turning down the volume on the headsets didn't fix it, then
perhaps the radio volume was turned up too high? We are able
to combine most headsets in our plane and find suitable settings
of intercom/radio/headset volume, but it does take a little
tweaking when a new headset comes into the mix. I'm a little
puzzled because surely you must have tried this.

You're correct about the poorer Lightspeed passive attenuation.
It's a direct function of the attraction for Lightspeed owners,
the comfort. As you probably know, good passive attenuation in
muff-style headsets is a function of ear seal, and ear seal is
a function to some degree of clamping force.

I don't find the K/XL/G series flimsy except at the poorly-
designed plug/battery box configuration. However, if you do,
I believe you would find the same to be true of the QFR series.
My previous headset was a Flightcom Eclipse, regarded by many
as flimsy, and it served me well so I think there's an issue
of how gentle one is on equipment.

If you want good passive attenuation and sturdiness, perhaps
you would prefer a set of Dave Clamps?

Best,
Sydney

[[email protected]]

In rec.aviation.owning Sydney Hoeltzli > wrote:
: wrote:
:> I'm not really excited about buying any of the 15/20/25/30 K,XL,G
:> series because they seems pretty flimsy, have extraordinarily lousy
:> passive attenuation (read: LOUD out of active cancellation above 300 Hz),
:> and artificually boost the radio's voice frequencies to an uncomfortable
:> level. I'm sure the boosting is for "clarify" of old ears that are
:> already fried from 40 years of naked flying, but I'm trying to keep mine
:> good.

: Cory,

: I'm afraid I don't follow your critique of the K/XL/G series.
: The radio's voice frequencies can be adjusted to any level you
: like with the volume control. I have very good ears and the
: level is not uncomfortable, in fact it is too low on the
: minimum volume setting in our plane. If something was uncomfortable,
: and turning down the volume on the headsets didn't fix it, then
: perhaps the radio volume was turned up too high? We are able
: to combine most headsets in our plane and find suitable settings
: of intercom/radio/headset volume, but it does take a little
: tweaking when a new headset comes into the mix. I'm a little
: puzzled because surely you must have tried this.

What I meant was that it has an active filter in the mix that
boosts the voice frequencies from the radio/intercom. That range
(1kHz-3kHz or so) is what makes speech inteligible, and so they boosted it
to make the radios sound "clearer" and "easier to hear." For me, this
yields a harsher sound in those voice than a plain headset. I don't find
it necessary to artificially boost those frequencies for the radio to be
heard over the intercom. The level on the batt box simply adjusts the
gain, but doesn't adjust these boosted frequencies. While a bit
confusing, that's what I meant. It's not just a level thing.


: You're correct about the poorer Lightspeed passive attenuation.
: It's a direct function of the attraction for Lightspeed owners,
: the comfort. As you probably know, good passive attenuation in
: muff-style headsets is a function of ear seal, and ear seal is
: a function to some degree of clamping force.

Sure. That's why they're touted as very comforable (which they
are). Most GA planes are fairly well sound insulated at the frequencies
that are easy to insulate (>1kHz). My plane with minimal internal sound
damping has lots of rattle inside, which makes it unusually noisy in the
1kHz-5kHz range... again the same frequencies that the LS-15/20/25/30
boosts. In fact, I saw a review that showed appreciable spill-over from
the LS headsets in that range. It's a side-effect of attenuating the
100Hz-300Hz range that it actually *boosts* the noise in the 1kHz range or
so. Not pleasant at full-power climbout.

: I don't find the K/XL/G series flimsy except at the poorly-
: designed plug/battery box configuration.

The telescoping action of each side has broken on two separate
friends' headsets. One 25XL, the other 15K.

However, if you do,
: I believe you would find the same to be true of the QFR series.
: My previous headset was a Flightcom Eclipse, regarded by many
: as flimsy, and it served me well so I think there's an issue
: of how gentle one is on equipment.

The battery box doesn't bother me all that much. In fact, I like
the XC-2 and 30G ability to plumb music right in to the headset. If it
truely is 28 dB passive without a vice-grip, then the 10 dB of active it
provides will help cut down the engine even a bit more.

: If you want good passive attenuation and sturdiness, perhaps
: you would prefer a set of Dave Clamps?

Kinda like buying a Sony VCR. It's still built by the lowest
Korean/Japanese/Philpines/Chinese bidder, but stick a name on it and
charge 2x the price. It's rather ridiculous that aviation headsets cost
so much. Even if DC or Bose is slightly better, it certainly isn't worth
the shameless gouging in price.

FWIW
-Cory


--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Steve House" > said:
>Right - the accusation that I'm an idiot is "demonstrating expertise" Just

Jim never called you an idiot. I don't think anybody did until now. But
*now* I'm going to to call you an idiot, because you obviously are one.

>human interaction are somehow suspended. I'm an old hand at the Net and
>Usenet, having used it daily since about 1980. I'm also a very new student

Bull****. Nobody who was using Usenet in 1980 does TOFU posting. Up
until the never ending September of 1993, anybody who didn't learn to trim
their quoted text would have been hounded off of any reasonable newsgroup.

>correction where it was in error. I suppose we egg's should just sit
>silently in rapturous awe at the feet of the Masters. Thanks for making me

No, people who make wrong statements should take correction without
accusing the person making the corrections of being arrogant.

>feel so very welcome to the group.

You're not welcome to the group. People who can accept correction are.
So are people who don't lie about their qualifications.


--
Paul Tomblin >, not speaking for anybody
There is no substitute for good manners, except, perhaps, fast reflexes.

[Ron Natalie]

"Jim Weir" > wrote in message ...
> Because everything I do is kit. To do a decent job with ANR requires you to
> work with surface mount devices roughly the size of an FAA inspector's heart.

But this is still several times larger than his brain ;-)

[Dan Luke]

"Jay Honeck" wrote:
> > > I am buying our fourth ANR headset at OSH 2003 later this month.

> Thus, soon a Garmin 196 will be resting comfortably on my yoke, God
willin'
> and the crick don't rise...

By golly, that's my kind of guy. If I come home from OSH without holes worn
in my credit card, I feel like I haven't enjoyed the full experience.

Someone told me they have aerobatics displays and stuff at the show - is
that true?

See you at the vendors booths...
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[SteveH]

FYI - top posting is the current norm in many Usenet groups, especially the
MS tech support groups where I spend most of my time. With newsreaders like
Outlook Express, some people find embedded responses can be more difficult
to read than the top posts.

"If it is legit.." was not impuning any individual report but rather the
blanket assertion that flaws and failures in use are endemic to Lightspeed,
which has been alleged, not in your post nor about this particular problem,
but rather in other threads where people have criticised Lightspeed's
quality control.

A battery pack that is hot enough to melt its casing and emit smoke is on
the verge of combustion and even if it did not ignite itself it seems to me
to present a risk that it could cause more flammable objects in contact with
it to ignite. Heck, Dell Computer recalled a batch of Nicads battery packs
for some of their laptop models a year or so ago because of nearly identical
overheating problems that had, in fact, resulted in full blown fire in
several cases.
..
"Sydney Hoeltzli" > wrote in message
...

[Jim Weir]

Now, now, Ron, let's not split hairs. PMA is almost always issued
simultaneously with the TSO, but it is the PMA documentation that sets the
inspection standard(s).

Jim


"Ron Natalie" >
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

->
->If you've got a TSOA, you've also got manufacturing authority.
->

Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Peter Duniho]

"SteveH" > wrote in message
...
> FYI - top posting is the current norm in many Usenet groups, especially
the
> MS tech support groups where I spend most of my time.

lol...

Just because it's the norm, that doesn't make it right. It just means a
bunch of newbies are posting in that newsgroup.

> With newsreaders like
> Outlook Express, some people find embedded responses can be more difficult
> to read than the top posts.

How in the WORLD does the newsreader being used affect how easy it is to
READ a traditionally quoted post versus a top-posted post?

As far as your example of Dell battery packs goes...there's a big difference
between the available current in a laptop battery and a battery pack driving
a headset.

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> Actually, Microsoft actively encouraged HTML posting in the microsoft.*
> newsgroups

I don't know what you mean by "actively encouraged". However, even if true,
I fail to see what HTML posting has to do with the current topic, which is
top posting.

[Ron Rapp]

On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 15:04:24 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>I believe Denny is perceiving this:
>
>The only reason many Lightspeed owners have NOT had repeated problems with
>broken wires at the plug is because they specifically lay the battery box on
>the floor, or tuck it in a side pocket. This removes the weight of the
>battery box from the inadequately designed wire and plug assembly, and keeps
>the wires from breaking.

That can't be true in my case, at least. My battery box is plugged
into the middle of the panel (left of the turn coordinator) and the
battery box hangs down from there. The box's weight causes the cord
to bend 90 degrees right after it comes out of the plug. That has got
to be about as high stress as you can get on the cord. Why I have had
no problems is a mystery to me. The only thing I can thing of is that
I leave the headset in the plane most of the time rather than plugging
it in and removing it again. That probably reduces the strain on the
cord.

--Ron

[Russell Kent]

"Jim Weir" > wrote:

> > Because everything I do is kit. To do a decent job with ANR requires you to
> > work with surface mount devices roughly the size of an FAA inspector's heart.

Ron Natalie interjected:

>
> But this is still several times larger than his brain ;-)

Brave words indeed for someone who's steed is currently undergoing *major* surgery which may involve
one or more FAA inspector sign-offs...

Russell Kent

[Russell Kent]

Sydney Hoeltzli wrote:

> "Is it important to purchase only a TSO'd headset? What does TSO really
> mean? Do pilots find that TSO'd headsets are more reliable than
> non-TSO'd headsets?" not by making a buttload of assertions including
> a total fabrication about battery boxes bursting into flame.
>
> The latter will get you a faster response for sure, but evidently
> not of the kind you find enjoyable.
>
> How can someone who asserts he's been on USENET for more than a decade
> not know this? Beats me.

"The two most common things in the Universe are hydrogen and stupidity."
(Apologies; I forget whom I'm quoting. --Russell Kent)

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Peter Duniho" > said:
>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>> Actually, Microsoft actively encouraged HTML posting in the microsoft.*
>> newsgroups
>
>I don't know what you mean by "actively encouraged". However, even if true,

I mean that they put it specifically into the FAQs, charters and other
supporting documentation that it was encouraged.

>I fail to see what HTML posting has to do with the current topic, which is
>top posting.

HTML posting and top posting are both symptoms of using inferior (ie
Windows) pseudo-newsreaders like Outhouse. When you find one, you usually
find the other.


--
Paul Tomblin >, not speaking for anybody
A male pilot is a confused soul who talks about women when he's flying,
and about flying when he's with a woman.

[Ron Natalie]

"Russell Kent" > wrote in message ...

> > How can someone who asserts he's been on USENET for more than a decade
> > not know this? Beats me.
>
> "The two most common things in the Universe are hydrogen and stupidity."
> (Apologies; I forget whom I'm quoting. --Russell Kent)

Einstein (supposedly).

Actually, the more accepted version of the quote is:

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity.

[Dan Luke]

"SteveH" wrote:
> FYI - top posting is the current norm in many Usenet groups,

Lots of people spit their gum on the sidewalk, too.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Newps]

wrote:

> Slightly off topic, but I was wondering if anyone's got any
> thoughts on Lightspeed's Solo and Cross-country headsets. Different form
> factor, and not as active. They seem pretty flimsy by the pictures, but
> the passive on the X-C (along with mild active) seems like a winner to me.
> Anyone used these?

I currently have the Cross Country. I had an original 20K, then the
25XL. The Cross Country is better in all respects except one. It does
not have the auto shutoff feature. It is much more comfortable, it is
quieter and best of all it is not bulky like the ones with that god
awful big foam ear seal and head band pad. The big foam ones always
felt a little flimsy to me, the Cross Country is put together a lot
better.

[Russell Kent]

"Russell Kent" > wrote in message ...

>
> > > How can someone who asserts he's been on USENET for more than a decade
> > > not know this? Beats me.
> >
> > "The two most common things in the Universe are hydrogen and stupidity."
> > (Apologies; I forget whom I'm quoting. --Russell Kent)
>

Ron Natalie wrote:

> Einstein (supposedly).
>
> Actually, the more accepted version of the quote is:
>
> Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity.

Hmmm. A quick Google seems to indicate that I'm quoting Harlan Ellison. It appears
that his phrase may have been inspired by Einstein's.

Russell Kent

[Ron Natalie]

"Russell Kent" > wrote in message ...

>
> Hmmm. A quick Google seems to indicate that I'm quoting Harlan Ellison. It appears
> that his phrase may have been inspired by Einstein's.
>
Wouldn't surprise me. Ellison's not big on original thought.

[SteveH]

Where precisly did I lie about my online experience? You assume, because for
some strange reason you abhore the readiblity of a continuous block of text
and prefer to find and reassemble brief fragments interspersed within the
replied-to message's text in an attempt to come up with a cohesive premise
and discussion, that anyone who top-posts simply MUST be an online/Internet
newby. I assure you that is not the case. Complete paragraphs, with an
opening sentence, discussion, and closing, is far preferable to snipits of
phrase and isolated sentences. Some would argue that the ability to review
a conversation thread by simply scrolling and seeing each message in its
entirety in reverse order far outways the cost few microseconds of broadband
transfer time - the idea that top-posting is an evil came about to save
bytes in the days when 2400 baud modems were considered high speed data
transfers and it should be relegated to the same museum where you find the
hardware that gave rise to it.

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> In a previous article, "Steve House"
> said:
> >Right - the accusation that I'm an idiot is "demonstrating expertise"
Just
>
> Jim never called you an idiot. I don't think anybody did until now. But
> *now* I'm going to to call you an idiot, because you obviously are one.
>
> >human interaction are somehow suspended. I'm an old hand at the Net and
> >Usenet, having used it daily since about 1980. I'm also a very new
student
>
> Bull****. Nobody who was using Usenet in 1980 does TOFU posting. Up
> until the never ending September of 1993, anybody who didn't learn to trim
> their quoted text would have been hounded off of any reasonable newsgroup.
>
> >correction where it was in error. I suppose we egg's should just sit
> >silently in rapturous awe at the feet of the Masters. Thanks for making
me
>
> No, people who make wrong statements should take correction without
> accusing the person making the corrections of being arrogant.
>
> >feel so very welcome to the group.
>
> You're not welcome to the group. People who can accept correction are.
> So are people who don't lie about their qualifications.
>
>
> --
> Paul Tomblin >, not speaking for anybody
> There is no substitute for good manners, except, perhaps, fast reflexes.

[Ron Natalie]

"SteveH" > wrote in message ...
> I assure you that is not the case.

No, you're just an insensitive nonconformist.

> Complete paragraphs, with an
> opening sentence, discussion, and closing, is far preferable to snipits of
> phrase and isolated sentences.

Fine, that still doesn't explain why you don't trim off the needless included
text from the previous posters. If you're going to write your own book,
there's no reason to include everything. Most people have news article
retentions of a couple of weeks at least.

[Peter Duniho]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> I mean that they put it specifically into the FAQs, charters and other
> supporting documentation that it was encouraged.

I've never seen anything like that. Do you happen to have an example or
two?

> HTML posting and top posting are both symptoms of using inferior (ie
> Windows) pseudo-newsreaders like Outhouse. When you find one, you usually
> find the other.

Ahhh...I see. This is actually about your bias against Microsoft, rather
than an actual comment about Usenet habits. Nevermind then...

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
> > "The two most common things in the Universe are hydrogen and stupidity."
> > (Apologies; I forget whom I'm quoting. --Russell Kent)
>
> Einstein (supposedly).
>
> Actually, the more accepted version of the quote is:
>
> Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity.

I've only ever seen that quote with the additional phrase: "and I'm not so
sure about the universe".

While the two quotes are similar, and I suppose Ellison's might have been
inspired by Einstein's, they are hardly semantically equivalent. I wouldn't
call the two quotes the same, or even different versions of the same quote.

Pete

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Peter Duniho" > said:
>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>> I mean that they put it specifically into the FAQs, charters and other
>> supporting documentation that it was encouraged.
>
>I've never seen anything like that. Do you happen to have an example or
>two?

If you look at the source code for Cleanfeed, you'll see the microsoft.*
newsgroups are among the few where HTML is explicitly allowed. Or at
least that was the case 4 or 5 years ago. I was told that was a request
from Microsoft. I never actually verified it.

>> HTML posting and top posting are both symptoms of using inferior (ie
>> Windows) pseudo-newsreaders like Outhouse. When you find one, you usually
>> find the other.
>
>Ahhh...I see. This is actually about your bias against Microsoft, rather
>than an actual comment about Usenet habits. Nevermind then...

No, HTML and top-posting are both bad things - they decrease the
readability of postings while increasing the size of the articles. The
majority of mail clients and newsreaders for Windows encourage these
things. I'd blame Outhouse, but in actual fact in the email world it's
Bloated Stoats that seemed to have started the top posting crapola. But
Bloates doesn't do news, so it's not germaine to this discussion.


--
Paul Tomblin >, not speaking for anybody
"The thing you don't check is the thing that will kill you."
-- Rick Grant (quoting RCAF pilot training)

[Steve House]

"Snowbird" > wrote in message
om...
> "SteveH" > wrote in message
>...
> > FYI - top posting is the current norm
>
> What's your point here?
>
> > "If it is legit.." was not impuning any individual report but rather the
> > blanket assertion that flaws and failures in use are endemic to
Lightspeed
>
> You appeared to be responding specifically to my post regarding
> battery box melting. If you meant the above, a clearer way
> to convey your meaning would be something like "if it's true
> that Lightspeed has an endemic number of failures...."

You're correct, it would have been a better way of stating it. Early
morning fuzziness..


>
> > A battery pack that is hot enough to melt its casing and emit smoke is
on
> > the verge of combustion and even if it did not ignite itself it seems to
me
> > to present a risk that it could cause more flammable objects in contact
with
> > it to ignite.
>
> Apples and oranges.
>
> What is the voltage of a Dell battery pack? What is its current
> draw?

14.8 volts, 5400 maHr
2.5 amp charging current
>
> What is the voltage of a headset battery pack containing two
> AA batteries? What is its current draw?

Lightspeeds 2-AA batteries specifically? 3 volts and I don't have a clue on
the current draw. But the 3 volts can produce a hell of a current for a
short time through a dead short, enough to heat a wire to the point of
melting and igniting surrounding materials should they be flammable.

>
> And are you really asserting you'd find the above easier to
> follow if I dumped it all up at the top of the post instead
> of interspersing it so that you and everyone else can determine
> to what I'm responding?

In most circumstances that is *almost* precisely what I am saying. The
exception is a message such as the one I'm now responding to where there are
several essentially independent conceptual threads interwoven, in which case
it makes more sense to deal with each as if it were an independent message.

Position isn't important - take your pick of the top or the bottom,
although the reply is easier to find on the top. But having the entire
conceptual context as a single block of contiguous text makes the traffic
far easier to read and comprehend in most cases than a little bit here and a
little bit there, interwoven with the text being replied to. The model
(preferred model, in my humble opinion) is the letter and reply discussions
that occur in many print journals. Thanks to whomever that the
character-based technology that made the no-top-post notion preferable has
been replaced with one that makes a more natural written discourse of
developed point and developed rebuttal and counter point viable, along with
the fact that just about the cheapest and fastest thing on the planet these
days is a few kilobytes of text transmitted down a fibre optic line. With
the reply as a single block of text, I can focus on what the writer is
saying. If I need to see the exact point to which he is responding, I can
always scroll down to the original text. If I need to remind myself of what
prompted that point now being responded to, I can easily scroll down
farther. But the ideas expressed at each stage remain a cohesive whole
within their original context and not disjointed snipits of thought,
idea-bites as it were. Sound-bites masquerading as discussion are bad
enough in the political arena.

Consider where we have a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply. You need
to count the indentation characters to figure out which message is the one a
given point is responding to. If each message stays together, replies being
top-posted on top of each other, it's not anywhere near the same problem to
figure out which is the point, the rebuttal, the re-rebuttal, etc.

[[email protected]]

: I currently have the Cross Country. I had an original 20K, then the
: 25XL. The Cross Country is better in all respects except one. It does
: not have the auto shutoff feature. It is much more comfortable, it is

The XC-2 does have that, I believe. If I try to get a new one,
that's probably what I'd do.

: quieter and best of all it is not bulky like the ones with that god
: awful big foam ear seal and head band pad. The big foam ones always
: felt a little flimsy to me, the Cross Country is put together a lot
: better.

It looks (from the pictures) that the little wires that hold the
earpieces to the headband seem flimsy. Not true?

Thanks,
-Cory

--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

[Peter Duniho]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> If you look at the source code for Cleanfeed, you'll see the microsoft.*
> newsgroups are among the few where HTML is explicitly allowed. Or at
> least that was the case 4 or 5 years ago. I was told that was a request
> from Microsoft. I never actually verified it.

So you have no evidence to support your claim. Given that you said "they
put it specifically into the FAQs, charters and other supporting
documentation that it was encouraged", my naive self thought that you would
actually be able to show me an FAQ, charter, or other supporting
documentation where Microsoft explicitly encourages the use of HTML when
posting to their newsgroups.

Permitting HTML is a far cry from encouraging it, and you don't even have
any evidence that it was Microsoft who asked Cleanfeed to permit it.

> No, HTML and top-posting are both bad things - they decrease the
> readability of postings while increasing the size of the articles.

I never said they weren't bad things. I wasn't commenting on HTML or
top-posting, but rather your accusation that "Outhouse" (by which I assume
you actually mean Outlook Express) is a) a "pseudo-newsreader" (whatever the
heck that is) and b) causes users to top-post and use HTML. Your
subjectiveness is plastered all over your post.

There is NOTHING about OE that causes users to top-post. Quoted text has to
go somewhere; only the user is capable of breaking it up and making the
reply flow correctly. Some newsreaders put the text at the top and the
insertion point below, while others (like OE) put the text at the bottom and
the insertion point above. The two behaviors are basically equivalent.
It's up to the user to do something useful with it.

Even the HTML behavior is completely optional. It's true that OE defaults
to HTML formatted messages (I think...it's been so long since I set up OE
from scratch, I'm not really sure). But what really causes HTML messages to
show up on Usenet is people who don't bother to watch and learn before they
post.

You will probably fall out of your chair in amazement to find out that I use
Outlook Express. After all, none of my posts exhibit these two Usenet faux
pas that you're talking about.

> The
> majority of mail clients and newsreaders for Windows encourage these
> things. I'd blame Outhouse, but in actual fact in the email world it's
> Bloated Stoats that seemed to have started the top posting crapola. But
> Bloates doesn't do news, so it's not germaine to this discussion.

Your propensity toward conveying your biases with made-up names for products
has completely obfuscated this part of your post. I have no idea whatsoever
what product you're talking about here. "Bloated Stoats"? "Bloates"?

Pete

[Newps]

wrote:

> It looks (from the pictures) that the little wires that hold the
> earpieces to the headband seem flimsy. Not true?

Nope, they are great. Plenty strong.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Peter Duniho" > said:
>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>> If you look at the source code for Cleanfeed, you'll see the microsoft.*
>> newsgroups are among the few where HTML is explicitly allowed. Or at
>> least that was the case 4 or 5 years ago. I was told that was a request
>> from Microsoft. I never actually verified it.
>
>So you have no evidence to support your claim. Given that you said "they

Yes, you're right. I meant to say I withdraw the claim in my previous
post, but I left it out.

>There is NOTHING about OE that causes users to top-post. Quoted text has to

It sure seems like OE users top-post by default.

>You will probably fall out of your chair in amazement to find out that I use
>Outlook Express. After all, none of my posts exhibit these two Usenet faux

No, clueful users can overcome the limitations of their crappy software.

>Your propensity toward conveying your biases with made-up names for products
>has completely obfuscated this part of your post. I have no idea whatsoever
>what product you're talking about here. "Bloated Stoats"? "Bloates"?

Lotus Notes. The worst piece of software ever written.


--
Paul Tomblin >, not speaking for anybody
"You are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else." -
- Delenn, Babylon 5

[G.R. Patterson III]

Steve House wrote:
>
> Check again - DC says all theirs are. Haven't looked at Bose and Sennheiser
> lately.

Ok, I checked again at http://www.davidclark.com/HeadsetPgs/aviation.shtml
Every non-ANR headset I checked is TSO'd. None of the ANR headsets are (at
least, DC doesn't say they are).

George Patterson
The optimist feels that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The
pessimist is afraid that he's correct.
James Branch Cavel

[Sydney Hoeltzli]

Newps wrote:

> I currently have the Cross Country. I had an original 20K, then the
> 25XL.

What happened to the 20K and the 25XL?

Cheers,
Sydney

[Dennis O'Connor]

Been around since it was telnet and before that tty, and I have always top
posted so that the first thing the reader views is the new information... If
he is too brain dead to remember what has been posted prior, he is free to
read on down or search the archives...

Denny - awk grep nnnn
"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> In a previous article, "Steve House"
> said:

[Ron Natalie]

"Steve House" > wrote in message ...

> > It sure seems like OE users top-post by default.
>
> Because OE bottom quotes by default. I

It doesn't bottom quote at all. The only thing it does differently is that
it leaves the cursor at the top of the window, so you have to hit SHIFT-END
to move to the bottom before you start typing.

Top posting vs bottom posting wouldn't be an issue at all if people wouldn't be so
stupid as to include the entire article they are following up.

[EDR]

Pretty good observation of local weather phenomenon in Ohio.
Our aviation state motto could be, "Welcome to the convergence zone!
Where west meets east and north greets south. Where Bermuda High's
stall the North Plains Low's."

One of Duane Coles early books mentions the more common local
conditions he met during his years as an airshow pilot, ferrying his
Tayolorcraft across the country. The one that sticks out in my mind is
the line between snow/freezing rain/rain that exists about Fort Wayne
Indianna.

Personally, I have also learned that a low pressure system moving
northeast out of the Gulf of Mexico will either track up the east side
or the west side of the Appalachian Mountains. Depending on which side
it moves up will determine the best route to fly between the North
Coast and the South Coast.

Lake Erie presents some interesting contrasts between Lake Huron and
Lake Ontario. The Lakes make their own local weather phenomenon.

Of course the weather patterns we have been experiencing this year have
added a whole tome to how to fly anywhere east of the Mississippi.

[Montblack]

Drat.

("Dan Luke" wrote)
<snip>
......but I skip most top-posters.

Drat.

--
Montblack

[Greg B]

EDR > wrote in message >...
> Pretty good observation of local weather phenomenon in Ohio.
> Our aviation state motto could be, "Welcome to the convergence zone!

Yeah, but it all spills into PA with alarming regularity. We were
headed from Western NJ to Gettysburg last Sunday when we ran into
multi-layered hazy scud at Lancaster. Made it to Gettysburg okay,
ate breakfast and looked up to see convective stuff starting on
the boil overhead.

High-tailed it out of there and ran back into lovely weather at
Lancaster.

I've been made concerned or turned back a half-dozen times by
such stuff on a summer's day in Central PA, when the Western
1/3 of the state has been just fine.

Greg

[Peter R.]

EDR ) wrote:

> The Central PA mountains are another local weather maker which inhibit
> east-west flight. The mountains have claimed many an aircraft and
> unwary pilot.

IFR, VFR or doesn't it matter? I was flying IFR over PA yesterday
afternoon at 8,000ft, above a solid layer and was listening to several VFR
pilots talking to Harrisburg Approach about quickly deteriorating weather.
A few tried to get pop-up IFR clearances but were temporarily denied, while
others were doing 180s and trying to find nearby airports in which to land.
It did not sound pleasant.


--
Peter

[EDR]

> > The Central PA mountains are another local weather maker which inhibit
> > east-west flight. The mountains have claimed many an aircraft and
> > unwary pilot.
>
> IFR, VFR or doesn't it matter? I was flying IFR over PA yesterday
> afternoon at 8,000ft, above a solid layer and was listening to several VFR
> pilots talking to Harrisburg Approach about quickly deteriorating weather.
> A few tried to get pop-up IFR clearances but were temporarily denied, while
> others were doing 180s and trying to find nearby airports in which to land.
> It did not sound pleasant.

Ernie Gann wrote about flying Pennsylvania and the Alleganies during
the DC-2/3 days. Summer, Winter, day and night.

[Jay Honeck]

> Someone told me they have aerobatics displays and stuff at the show - is
> that true?

You're kidding, right Dan? They have one of the best damned airshows you'll
ever see -- every day, for a week! :)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> .....but I skip most top-posters.

Hey, I skip most bottom posters -- but only if the new info goes off the
bottom of my screen.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Ron Natalie]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:cjHPa.38183$H17.11490@sccrnsc02...
> > Ours hang from the panel as well and we've not noticed any problems. We
> > leave ours in the plane, but they do get plugged/unplugged quite regularly
> as
> > Margy has hers and I have mine and we swap them left to right.
>
> We never, ever unplug them. They just each broke, one by one. (Although
> it's been a while without a broken cord -- maybe they finally fixed that
> flaw?)
> --
Dunno, Margy's is one of the 20K's, she got hers a couple of years before I got mine.
We'd not bothter swapping them except Margy's got some extra gizmo on the headband
of hers.

[john smith]

> Lightspeed was supposed to reimburse me for shipping, but I have yet to
> receive a check since my problems began in March. I suspect a terse call
> to their customer support would produce the desired response, but again
> this requires more of my time, which is also accumulating.

Peter, don't use your own money to return their product.
When you call to obtain a Return Authorization, ask for their FedEx or
UPS account number to charge the shipping to.
Or, you can ask them to send you a prepaid return package.

[john smith]

> FYI - top posting is the current norm in many Usenet groups, especially the
> MS tech support groups where I spend most of my time. With newsreaders like
> Outlook Express, some people find embedded responses can be more difficult
> to read than the top posts.

Well, there's the problem!
Invoking the MS name and products explains everything.
Garbage in, garbage out.

[Dennis O'Connor]

I'm flying the alleganies in a couple of weeks... Wonder what pucker-up
adventures await...

Denny

"vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 21:19:52 GMT, EDR > wrote:
>
> >> > The Central PA mountains are another local weather maker which
inhibit
> >> > east-west flight. The mountains have claimed many an aircraft and
> >> > unwary pilot.
> >>
> >> IFR, VFR or doesn't it matter? I was flying IFR over PA yesterday
> >> afternoon at 8,000ft, above a solid layer and was listening to several
VFR
> >> pilots talking to Harrisburg Approach about quickly deteriorating
weather.
> >> A few tried to get pop-up IFR clearances but were temporarily denied,
while
> >> others were doing 180s and trying to find nearby airports in which to
land.
> >> It did not sound pleasant.
> >
> >Ernie Gann wrote about flying Pennsylvania and the Alleganies during
> >the DC-2/3 days. Summer, Winter, day and night.
>
> Worst icing I ever experienced was near Williamsport, PA (IPT) when I
> picked up so much clear ice in about 5 to 10 minutes my Cherokee was
> down to 85 knots at full power, and barely maintaining altitude.
>
> But it's a hell of a lot easier, and safer, than it was when airmail
> pilots were flying DH-4s with no navaids, or for that matter, even 50
> years ago when there were no VORs or ILS approaches or weather radar.
>
> vince norris

[Jon Woellhaf]

Well said!

"Steve House" > wrote in message
...
> Nothing to do with MS as a company nor invoking their name or authority.
> Just saying that the abhorrence to top posting is not universally true on
> Usenet and in many forums -- serious purpose forums where most of
> participants are neither computer nor internet newbies nor technical
> incompetents, with the MS technical forums being a case in point (unless
you
> consider MS developers, typical MSDN and Technet subscribers, and MS MVPs
to
> be generally incompetent newbies) -- it is the norm rather than the
> exception. In most instances a format that resembles an exchange of
letters
> or a series of articles by various authors published in successive issues
of
> a journal discussing a point is more intelligible than wading through
quoted
> text to find the sentences and phrases that are new to the thread with
that
> particular message. Leaving the original(s) intact at the bottom allows
for
> reference back should the reader desire and allows someone who is newly
> arrived on the forum to see the history and context of the reply yet does
> not force them to scroll through it looking for the relevant reply text.
It
> also allows people who do not keep a message history in their newsreader -
> I, for one, purge the newsgroups of downloaded message bodies each time I
> exit my reader - to review the history without having to re-download the
> message bodies yet consumes minimal time and space. The idea that Usenet
> postings should be terse snipits made sense when each character was
> relatively expensive to transmit compared to today but that's no longer
the
> case.
>
> Another point to consider regarding deleting quoted text - take a look at
> your quoted message below. You have deleted the header information that
> would normally appear about the first line (the line beginning ">>FYI")
> showing that those lines originated with a message by me and as a result
it
> appears that the thoughts in the top 4 lines that you are critiquing
> originated with yourself. Which is clearer as to who said what - my
leaving
> your header in or your taking my header out in order to save space? Top
> posting with your remarks, leaving at least the quoted message to which
you
> are replying, if not the entire thread, intact at the bottom makes
correct
> attribution of who said what on the part of other readers much clearer.
>
>
> "john smith" > wrote in message
> ...
> > > FYI - top posting is the current norm in many Usenet groups,
especially
> the
> > > MS tech support groups where I spend most of my time. With
newsreaders
> like
> > > Outlook Express, some people find embedded responses can be more
> difficult
> > > to read than the top posts.
> >
> > Well, there's the problem!
> > Invoking the MS name and products explains everything.
> > Garbage in, garbage out.
>
>

[Dan Luke]

"Jay Honeck" wrote:
> > Someone told me they have aerobatics displays and stuff at the show - is
> > that true?
>
> You're kidding, right Dan?

Uh, yes, Jay. Take a nap; you've been manning the front desk too long. :)
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[vincent p. norris]

On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 10:39:36 -0400, "Dennis O'Connor"
> wrote:

>I'm flying the alleganies in a couple of weeks... Wonder what pucker-up
>adventures await...
>
>Denny

Well, a great many of us do it every day, so it's not a death
sentence. The scenery is beautiful.

If you're a flatlander, keep in mind that the airports are in the
valleys, so a ceiling reported as 1200 feet means there's only about
200 feet clearance over the tops of the ridges.

And if the wind is NW at 15 knots or more, it will be bumpy.

vinced norris