Private Pilot in 10 days

[Gilan]

I just started flying at a school that offers Private Pilot in 10 days. I
plan on taking a bit longer then 10 days but wondered how long the average
person takes to complete their PPL?

Private Pilot in 10 days
http://www.perfectplanes.com/index.html

--
Have a good day and stay out of the trees!
See ya on Sport Aircraft group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sport_Aircraft/

Join "The Ultralight & Experimental Aircraft SiteRing"
http://pub27.bravenet.com/sitering/add.php?usernum=2286862090

[Thomas J. Paladino Jr.]

> I can't believe that anyone can assimilate what it takes to be a safe
pilot
> with good judgment in ten days. At the very least, you need to experience
a
> variety of weather situations. Wouldn't touch this place with the
proverbial
> ten foot pole.


Absolutely. There is no way that anyone on Gods green earth can go from
zero-time to a private ticket in 10 days (or 30, for that matter), and have
that ticket be worth any more than the paper it's printed on.

The private ticket is literally the foundation that all other ratings and
experience is built upon, and rushing through it is probably the stupidest
thing one can do. There are indeed courses that can give you *ratings* in
ten days or so, but the PPL is something that you should really immerse
yourself in and take your time with. Experience is definately your greatest
asset in the air, and while it may *sound* great to be a newly minted pilot
in just over a week and be done with it, chances are you'll kill yourself
the following week. Any reputable instructor knows this very well.
Generally, people average six months to a year to get a private ticket;
three to five months if they train intensively (three days or more per week,
no break). You just can't squeeze that into 10 days.

My guess is that the school is either giving you a radical under-estimate of
the required time commitment to get you in the door (not uncommon, but a bit
unbelieveable in this case), or really has a 10-day 'crash' program (pun
intended) to teach you exactly what to do on your checkride and written, and
get you out the door.

Either way, I would be VERY VERY wary.



>
> "Gilan" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I just started flying at a school that offers Private Pilot in 10 days.
I
> > plan on taking a bit longer then 10 days but wondered how long the
average
> > person takes to complete their PPL?
> >
> > Private Pilot in 10 days
> > http://www.perfectplanes.com/index.html
> >
> > --
> > Have a good day and stay out of the trees!
> > See ya on Sport Aircraft group
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sport_Aircraft/
> >
> > Join "The Ultralight & Experimental Aircraft SiteRing"
> > http://pub27.bravenet.com/sitering/add.php?usernum=2286862090
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Kyle Boatright]

"Gilan" > wrote in message
...
> I just started flying at a school that offers Private Pilot in 10 days. I
> plan on taking a bit longer then 10 days but wondered how long the average
> person takes to complete their PPL?
>
> Private Pilot in 10 days
> http://www.perfectplanes.com/index.html
>
> --
> Have a good day and stay out of the trees!
> See ya on Sport Aircraft group
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sport_Aircraft/
>
> Join "The Ultralight & Experimental Aircraft SiteRing"
> http://pub27.bravenet.com/sitering/add.php?usernum=2286862090
>
>
>

It took me all summer 10 years ago to get mine. Between weather delays,
work schedules, airplane and instructor schedules, etc, it was hard to get
more than 3-4 hours a week. I think I had 42-43 hours when I took my check
ride. The average is at least 10 hours higher.

Early in the process, one hour lessons are the way to go. There is so much
to learn, it would be hard to assimilate more than an hour's worth every day
or two. Later, especially doing X/C work, multi-hour flights are useful.

Most of my flying friends took significantly longer than my 3-4 months to
earn their PPL

KB

[Steve House]

I'd be very leary - anything that seems too good to be true, usually is.

"Gilan" > wrote in message
...
> I just started flying at a school that offers Private Pilot in 10 days. I
> plan on taking a bit longer then 10 days but wondered how long the average
> person takes to complete their PPL?
>
> Private Pilot in 10 days
> http://www.perfectplanes.com/index.html
>
> --
> Have a good day and stay out of the trees!
> See ya on Sport Aircraft group
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sport_Aircraft/
>
> Join "The Ultralight & Experimental Aircraft SiteRing"
> http://pub27.bravenet.com/sitering/add.php?usernum=2286862090
>
>
>

[Roger Long]

I think an immersion school that emphasized judgement and drilled into
students how little they really know and how much experience, self training,
practice, and additional dual they still need after the checkride could
produce pilots who were safer the day after than many FBO products. For
marketing reasons, FBO's often give the impression that you graduate as
Chuck Yager.

Friend o' mine passed his checkride in the morning after a sleepless night.
That evening, he took his girlfriend for a night flight in a plane without
panel lights and with only the hand mic working. Experienced pilots in our
club turned back because of thick haze. While juggling flashlight, mic,
sectionals, etc., he flew to a very busy Class B for a touch and go and
ended up flattening both mains trying to land and hold short. Gave one set
of window seaters in a 777 a real scare. Clearly, there were a few things
they didn't cover in his training.

That said, my training is recent enough that I can remember some of it. I
was always struck by how beneficial the layoff periods were. I would
sometimes come back after a month or two of not flying and find that I was
doing better than when I stopped. Things seem to settle down and take root.
I heard about military studies that showed that the ability to learn new
complex tasks drops off dramatically after about 1/2 hour. My experience
seemed to support that. Practice is a different dynamic but I think
keeping lessons where you are first learning a task should be kept to 1/2
hour.

--
--
Roger Long

[Slav Inger]

Gilan wrote:
>
> I just started flying at a school that offers Private Pilot in 10 days. I
> plan on taking a bit longer then 10 days but wondered how long the average
> person takes to complete their PPL?
>

Doesn't strike me as a smart thing to do in the long run. Nor would I
want to fly with a pilot who got his private in 10 days, or one who got
his private with the lowest number of hours. I have similar
reservations with instrument rating cram courses that proclaim IFR in 7
days.

- Slav Inger
- PP ASEL IA @ YIP

[Corky Scott]

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 02:36:02 GMT, "Bob Gardner" >
wrote:

>I can't believe that anyone can assimilate what it takes to be a safe pilot
>with good judgment in ten days. At the very least, you need to experience a
>variety of weather situations. Wouldn't touch this place with the proverbial
>ten foot pole.
>
>Bob Gardner

If you pass the written, the oral and practical to the satisfaction of
the examiner, what exactly is the difference between learning in 10
days or 10 months? Knowledge is knowledge. If it stays in you, what
does it matter how quickly you are taught it?

On the other hand, not everyone learns at exactly the same speed so
not everyone will be able to handle this type of instruction.

As to judgement, this seems a complicated subject. From what I've
read all my life about flying and what I've heard from pilots, poor
judgement can come from pilots whether they are freshly minted or have
thousands of hours of experience. It seems to depend on the
individual and his/her level of confidence, whether deserved or not.

Corky Scott

[Sydney Hoeltzli]

Jim Weir wrote:
> With all due respects for my admiration for you, Bob...

> I've been considering for some time now starting a "14 day wonder" pilot course.
> Before you come up here to spend 24/7 for two weeks at my chosen motel, you've
> taken my ground school online and passed the written. If you haven't passed the
> written with a 90%+ you keep taking my online quizzes until you have taken ten
> of them in a row with 90%+.

<...>

> Some day Gail and I will be able to afford to establish the Flight School For
> Perfection. Until then...I respectfully disagree with your criticism of those
> who are trying to achieve it.

Jim,

If you do establish said flight school, I'm sure it would produce good
pilots.

However, I don't believe the standard "get your pilot rating quick"
course is in any way an attempt to establish "the Flight School for
Perfection". I think it's an attempt to get people their ratings,
fast. Period.

If I remember correctly, someone went through such a course and
wrote a magazine article about it. I'll see if I can remember which
and find it. He went, passed, got his rating, then went home to
be evaluated by a local CFI/DE. IIRC, the evaluation was, the
basic elements were there but the depth wasn't.

Cheers,
Sydney

[C J Campbell]

The Air Force (which probably knows something about flying) sends many of
its pilots to get their introductory training at various FBOs. They allow 50
hours and 90 days for the pilot to get his private pilot certificate. We
generally, with very intensive training, get these guys to finish in about
45 hours and 60 days. These are highly motivated people who have nothing to
do but learn to fly.

You probably will not see many Air Force pilots at a 10 day pilot school.

[Robert Moore]

(Corky Scott) wrote
> Knowledge is knowledge. If it stays in you, what
> does it matter how quickly you are taught it?

But it doesn't stay Corky. Some more of that stuff
that every kindergarden teacher is required to study
in college that the average flight instructor has no
clue about. Long term and short term memory and the
methods and conditions required for transferring
learning from one to the other.

The FAA "Fundamentals of Instruction", universally
condemmed by flight instructors, contains very good
information about the teaching-learning process but in
such condensed form that in "rote" learning it just to
pass the test, flight instructors retain nothing from it.

The 10-day quicky course relies almost solely on rote
learning and I quote from the FOI, "Avoid rote learning,
for it does not foster transfer".

When I first joined PanAm way back in 1967, the Initial
Qualification program for the B-707 was six months long.
The Electrical System covered almost a complete week by
itself. At the end, I personally felt well qualified.
At the end in 1991, that same Initial Qualification course
required only two months. Same basic information taught,
just not enough time to learn and retain it. Electrical
in the morning followed by hydraulics and flight controls
that same afternoon. It wasn't very effective training.

Bob Moore
Teaching since 1962

[Tim Hogard]

Gilan ) wrote:
: I just started flying at a school that offers Private Pilot in 10 days. I
: plan on taking a bit longer then 10 days but wondered how long the average
: person takes to complete their PPL?
:
: Private Pilot in 10 days
: http://www.perfectplanes.com/index.html
:
10 days is going to be 4 hrs of flying a day. That is going to be
very intense and I would worry about mental fatigue. After about
10 hrs, most students get into over controlling the plane (read the
posts on "why are my landings getting worse" over the past decade)
and thouse flights are will take quite a bit out of you. I never
did two lessons in one day but sometimes it took a few days to get
over it and I'm used to marathon hacking sessions which involve
complex mental concentration for ten or more hours for days on end.

FWIW, my scuba class was 126 hrs of class room time and 126 hrs of
pool time before the open water tests over 3 months. Compare that
to the about 50 hrs of flight time to get my PPL and less than 10
hrs of class room time. 10 days is 240 hrs if you don't waste any
of sleeping. I don't think thats enough time to absorb what you
need to know. When I dive, I see the lack of training in others
all the time but most of them went to 3 hr resort classes. Both
diving and flying are very unforgiving of mistakes.

As far as Jim's idea, if the school was run that way and your good
at learing that way, it might be ok. I don't like the idea of here
are the books, pass the test and then we will show you the airplane.
I don't care how many times a student reads the book, the idea that
the rudder pedals are connected to the steering doesn't get through
till they are in the plane. Thats an example of 10 seconds in the
plane is worth more than months in the book. Weather on the other
hand is better from the book unless you live in an area that
demonstrates all the different varieties but that takes nearly a
year. You don't want to see a wall cloud up close and books have
nice pictures of them. If you do see one up close in a small plane,
I suspect it will be one of the last things you ever see. I think
Jim's school would do much better if his 14 days were preceeded by
2 days of classroom training and intro to the plane, then the book
study (for at least a month) and then the 14 days.

A 1/2 century ago there were a group of pilots that trained in about
two weeks. They were called Shimpu while training and depending
on how you look at it, things didn't go well for them. I think
that more time for training is better upto a point but I would be
interested in hear more from people that have trained in very short
times. I could see where getting your PPL in 10 days and then
flying with an instructor frequenly after that could be a good thing
for people flying 15 hrs a month.

-tim
http://web.abnormal.com

[Slav Inger]

Tim Hogard wrote:
>
> 10 days is going to be 4 hrs of flying a day. That is going to be
> very intense and I would worry about mental fatigue.
>

And that's just to attain the bare minimums required by the FARs. Not
many of us walk away with the ticket after just 40 hours.

- Slav Inger
- PP ASEL IA @ YIP

[Roger Hamlett]

"Slav Inger" > wrote in message
...
> Tim Hogard wrote:
> >
> > 10 days is going to be 4 hrs of flying a day. That is going to be
> > very intense and I would worry about mental fatigue.
> >
>
> And that's just to attain the bare minimums required by the FARs. Not
> many of us walk away with the ticket after just 40 hours.
With the 'accelerated' route, more people would probably get closer to this.
Normally there is a sometimes suprising amount of 'relearning' to do between
lessons that are seperated by some time.
This is really the question. The more normal route, does result in this
'relearning' having to occur, which may well have a long term reinforcing
effect on the learning as a whole. Combine this with the very small amount
of weather experience that might result (though this can also apply over
long training periods in some locations...), and the question is how the
pilot is likely to compare after a few months?.
It is worth remembering, that the accelerated route, was exactly the regime
used to train military pilots. However they were then not given the chance
to forget, being forced to use their skills immediately.
If the 'accelerated' pilot, does it, because they want to 'get a move on'
with flying, and keeps up regular flying immediately after the course, I'd
expect them to be fine.
However it'd be very interesting to see if after a few 'typical' months,
with only occasional flights, whether they remember as much (or more!), than
pilots who take the more normal route. Perhaps an expert in learning, might
be able to give an opinion as to which route is likely to give better 'long
term' memory?.

Best Wishes

[G.R. Patterson III]

Roger Hamlett wrote:
>
> Perhaps an expert in learning, might
> be able to give an opinion as to which route is likely to give better 'long
> term' memory?.

There was a study done about 1970 on the differences in long-term learning
between those who "crammed" for exams versus those who prepared by studying
lessons throughout the semester. They found that both methods produced similar
scores at the time of the examination. Both groups were retested monthly,
IIRC.

After 1 month, the cramming group retained about 1/3 of the material, but
steady study group retained about 90% of the material. The group that crammed,
however, stabilized at this point, while the steady study group continued to
lose knowledge. After 6 months, both groups tested the same.

Actual use of the information, of course, makes a great deal of difference
in retention of knowledge, and the report on this study mentioned that.

George Patterson
The optimist feels that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The
pessimist is afraid that he's correct.
James Branch Cavel

[Jerry Petrey]

Corky Scott wrote:

> On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 02:36:02 GMT, "Bob Gardner" >
> wrote:
>
> >I can't believe that anyone can assimilate what it takes to be a safe pilot
> >with good judgment in ten days. At the very least, you need to experience a
> >variety of weather situations. Wouldn't touch this place with the proverbial
> >ten foot pole.
> >
> >Bob Gardner
>
> If you pass the written, the oral and practical to the satisfaction of
> the examiner, what exactly is the difference between learning in 10
> days or 10 months? Knowledge is knowledge. If it stays in you, what
> does it matter how quickly you are taught it?
>
> On the other hand, not everyone learns at exactly the same speed so
> not everyone will be able to handle this type of instruction.
>
> As to judgement, this seems a complicated subject. From what I've
> read all my life about flying and what I've heard from pilots, poor
> judgement can come from pilots whether they are freshly minted or have
> thousands of hours of experience. It seems to depend on the
> individual and his/her level of confidence, whether deserved or not.
>
> Corky Scott

It is highly unlikely that anyone will retain this amount of knowledge when
exposed for such a short period of time. This is why a college degree takes
years not months – you could cram all the info into a 6 month course but you
wouldn’t get the same quality graduate. Would you want your brain surgeon to be
one who learned in a six month cram course? The longer exposure allows not only
more time to assimilate the material but more time to read about and discuss the
subject with others and gain insight from sources outside the teaching
institution. Many complex concepts need numerous exposures (often from different
points of view) over relatively long periods of time before they are fully
comprehended.

The FAA exams (written, oral, and practical) are not capable of verifying that
you are a good, safe pilot who has learned everything you need. They only are
meant to be checks that you meet some minimum requirements and possess some
minimum knowledge that indicates you are qualified to become a pilot. They rely
heavily on the fact that your CFI, who has known you and flown with you for a
considerable amount of time (hopefully over a period of time greater than a few
weeks), would only recommend you for the exam after he is convinced you have
acquired the skills, knowledge, and judgment to be a pilot.

Flying is a complex venture and is quite unforgiving. It is very foolish to
consider cost and time above safety. Almost every time I fly, I see other pilots
doing stupid things – I ask myself, what instructor taught them (or failed to
teach them) and how did they get recommended for the flight exam with this poor
judgment and flying ability. It is your life and your family, friends, and other
people’s lives at stake; why risk them to save a few bucks? If you’re on a tight
budget, forget the new TV or new car but spend the money and time to learn to fly
the best you possibly can. Not only will you be a safer pilot but you will enjoy
this wonderful adventure of flying a whole lot more.

I have been a CFI for 34 years and love flying and teaching. I am not cheap but
if you fly with me, you will not get recommended for the flight test until you
are a good, safe, professional acting pilot. When you take your friends or
family up the first time after getting your PPL, you will have the confidence and
professionalism that they deserve in a pilot.

Jerry
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-- Jerry Petrey, CFI
-- Senior Principal Systems Engineer - Navigation (GPS/INS), Guidance, & Control
-- Raytheon Missile Systems - Member Team Ada & Team Forth
-- NOTE: please remove <NOSPAM> in email address to reply
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Tim K]

"Gilan" > wrote in message >...

> I just started flying at a school that offers Private Pilot in 10 days. I
> plan on taking a bit longer then 10 days but wondered how long the average
> person takes to complete their PPL?

The other posters who mentioned mental fatigue (you know, what made
all them DH Comets crash in the '60s) and the value of down-time have
excellent points. I'm learning the slow way, and I believe the days
(sometimes weeks in our capricious NE weather) between each lesson are
vital, both for preparing for the next flight and allowing the brain
to focsu on other tasks.

It seems that a lot of 'learning' is done when you're not actively
concentrating on picking up a new skill; think of how easy it is to
remember the name of a song when you stop trying, or how effective
'sleeping on it' is when dealing with a problem. The brain does its
good work when you don't think it's doing anything.

I learned to drive with a week's intensive course. Idea was 9am Monday
was the first time you got behind the wheel and on 3pm Friday you'd
take your test. This is in the UK, I imagine the standards for a
driving test in the US are simliar. I ate, drank and slept driving for
5 days and passed. I'd spent the week learning at a frenetic pace but
the lessons of judgement never sank in until I'd discovered them all
over again on my own. Looking back it was only a couple of weeks later
that I was even remotely safe (or confident) behind the wheel.

You can't rush the accumulation of experience. 40 hours over 10 days
is not the same as 40 hours over a year. With an 'intensive' school
you don't give yourself enough time to analyse your mistakes before
moving on to making the next one. If I come close to busting airspace
now, or extend my crosswind so far I end up flying over the
incinerator smoke stacks and nearly flipping the plane, then I have a
week to let that sink in and I won't make that mistake again. If I was
up again the same afternoon I do not think the impact of my bad
decisions would have had a chance to sink in.

I think this really applies to primary training though. For additional
ratings where you're augmenting your skills, not learning an entirely
new skill (and flying is unlike anything we encounter in daily life),
then the intensive method may be more effective.

Jim's school sounds excellent. Immersion isn't the same as Intensive.

If you do go for it you should probably budget for followup lessons
with a CFI while you build confidence.

$0.02

Best & good luck,

Tim K.

[Benjamin Gawert]

Gilan wrote:

> I just started flying at a school that offers Private Pilot in 10
> days. I plan on taking a bit longer then 10 days but wondered how
> long the average person takes to complete their PPL?
>
> Private Pilot in 10 days
> http://www.perfectplanes.com/index.html

For me, that doesn't sound good. I'm quite sure 10 days might be long enough
to show someone how to manage a some-kind-of level flight and maybe some
kind of landings, but I'm quite sure it in no way will be enough time to get
a somewhat useable pilot, especially when beginning from zero...

I was looking for a compressed PPL training for myself, and next week I will
begin my training which certainly will take around 7 intensive weeks. But
then, my instructor doesn't have from the beginning since I already have
flying experience and knowledge. I'm aware that even with my experience this
probably would be some hard weeks, and I really can't imagine that such a
10-day-pilot will be really be able to fly solo in a somewhat safe manner...

Benjamin

[John Galban]

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message >...
> I can't believe that anyone can assimilate what it takes to be a safe pilot
> with good judgment in ten days. At the very least, you need to experience a
> variety of weather situations. Wouldn't touch this place with the proverbial
> ten foot pole.
>

I don't really have an opinion on whether or not this is a good
idea. I think a lot depends on what the pilot does after the 10 days
are up. Frankly, I think the logistics of offering a 10-day course is
fraught with difficulties. You need a properly motivated student and
perfect weather to name a few things.

Back in '01 I read about a student that completed the private
course in 10 days here in Arizona. If you're interested in the
details, check out :

http://makeashorterlink.com/?D28512935

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Michael]

Jim Weir > wrote
> We fly three times a day between May and October. Four people in the airplane
> at all times. The pilot, the instructor, and two students at the same level.
> We land. We exchange the pilot for one of the students and we do the lesson
> again. And another exchange.
>
> Mornings breakfast together shooting the bull about yesterday. Noon lunch
> talking about the morning flights. Night barbecues mulling over what has passed
> that day...
> Some day Gail and I will be able to afford to establish the Flight School For
> Perfection. Until then...I respectfully disagree with your criticism of those
> who are trying to achieve it.

With all due respect Jim...

If you ever do establish the sort of school you are talking about, it
will be a great thing. I would recommend it without reservation, and
I would even be happy to work there. Also, if you ever do establish
it, it will be a first.

There is nothing inherently wrong with instruction by full immersion,
and that's what you are suggesting. 14 days, 3 flight hours a day,
and another 10-12 hours of flight observation and ground instruction -
for someone who has already mastered the knowledge fundamentals, and
is really using the time for analysis and depth. Not everyone can
stand the pace, but many can - and I think telling those that can that
they need to drag their training out over months so they can be
'better pilots' is really a bunch of crap. What you are describing
can and should be done, but nobody is doing it.

However, the flight schools offering 10 or 14-day private tickets
really have nothing whatsoever to do with what you are proposing.
Their interest is in doing the minimum required for the rating.
They're not trying to achieve the Flight School For Perfection;
they're trying to collect the entire $5000 a student typically spends
to get a private ticket in days rather than months. It's about cash
flow, not training the superior pilot. All you have to do is look at
the experience level of the staff, the curriculum, and most of all the
support system - or rather the lack of it. There are no breakfast
briefings, no evening bull sessions over barbecue, and generally no
opportunity to sit in the back seat and observe other students making
your mistakes.

Michael

[John Galban]

(John Galban) wrote in message >...
> If you're interested in the
> details, check out :
>
> http://makeashorterlink.com/?D28512935


That link seems to be acting weird. To find the article, go to

http://www.generalaviationnews.com

Choose the search feature and look on 3/30/2001 for "10 days".

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Andrew Gideon]

Slav Inger wrote:

> And that's just to attain the bare minimums required by the FARs. Not
> many of us walk away with the ticket after just 40 hours.

It is important to recall that the FARs (and the PTSs) set minimums. I hope
that we all aim far higher than this.

The IR PTS requires demonstration of three different types of approaches.
Should we learn only three?

- Andrew

[Mike Rapoport]

I'm not sure I agree if the ground school was finished before the ten days
began. I don't see why someone wouldn't learn as much in three 1:20 flights
in one day as in one week. How many different weather situations do you
think a pilot learning to fly over three months in AZ sees? My own
experience is that I learn fastest if the training occurs with minimal
lapses between sessions.. That holds true for everything, not just flying.

Mike
MU-2


"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
t...
> I can't believe that anyone can assimilate what it takes to be a safe
pilot
> with good judgment in ten days. At the very least, you need to experience
a
> variety of weather situations. Wouldn't touch this place with the
proverbial
> ten foot pole.
>
> Bob Gardner
>
> "Gilan" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I just started flying at a school that offers Private Pilot in 10 days.
I
> > plan on taking a bit longer then 10 days but wondered how long the
average
> > person takes to complete their PPL?
> >
> > Private Pilot in 10 days
> > http://www.perfectplanes.com/index.html
> >
> > --
> > Have a good day and stay out of the trees!
> > See ya on Sport Aircraft group
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sport_Aircraft/
> >
> > Join "The Ultralight & Experimental Aircraft SiteRing"
> > http://pub27.bravenet.com/sitering/add.php?usernum=2286862090
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Roger Tschanz]

Two years ago I went to Lake Elmo, MN, USA.
I took flying lesson during 1 month, and then the examn. It's possible,
I am sure. But if my dad would fly himself I weren't able to do that. I
flew with my dad many many times, and I knew a lot about flying before
get started at Lake Elmo. But you have always to know:
If you have your license you are allowed to fly, you aren't yet a good
pilot. The skills are coming with the time! And you can't get this
skills in 10 days. That needs a whole life. Even my dad after 20 years
of flying, isn't yet at the end of perfection. You learn after each
flight. Never forget to make a debrifing for your own.

Roger



Benjamin Gawert wrote:
> Gilan wrote:
>
>
>>I just started flying at a school that offers Private Pilot in 10
>>days. I plan on taking a bit longer then 10 days but wondered how
>>long the average person takes to complete their PPL?
>>
>>Private Pilot in 10 days
>> http://www.perfectplanes.com/index.html
>
>
> For me, that doesn't sound good. I'm quite sure 10 days might be long enough
> to show someone how to manage a some-kind-of level flight and maybe some
> kind of landings, but I'm quite sure it in no way will be enough time to get
> a somewhat useable pilot, especially when beginning from zero...
>
> I was looking for a compressed PPL training for myself, and next week I will
> begin my training which certainly will take around 7 intensive weeks. But
> then, my instructor doesn't have from the beginning since I already have
> flying experience and knowledge. I'm aware that even with my experience this
> probably would be some hard weeks, and I really can't imagine that such a
> 10-day-pilot will be really be able to fly solo in a somewhat safe manner...
>
> Benjamin
>

[Slav Inger]

Andrew Gideon wrote:
>
> It is important to recall that the FARs (and the PTSs) set minimums. I hope
> that we all aim far higher than this.
>
> The IR PTS requires demonstration of three different types of approaches.
> Should we learn only three?
>

That's exactly my point. Quickest doesn't always mean the best.

- Slav Inger
- PP ASEL IA @ YIP

[Dylan Smith]

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:08:21 -0400, G.R. Patterson III >
wrote:
>There was a study done about 1970 on the differences in long-term learning
>between those who "crammed" for exams versus those who prepared by studying
>lessons throughout the semester.

How does this relate to retention of physical skills?

I strongly suspect the 10-day courses are just for the physical flying -
I would expect that they need you to be done with the groundschool before
starting.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Sydney Hoeltzli]

Dylan Smith wrote:

> A friend of mine did his private in two weeks (I watched him, he was doing
> it in my plane, my partner was his instructor). In a taildragger, as well.
> By the end, he had no trouble handling a 15-knot crosswind - he had
> to demonstrate that on his checkride. He's certainly not a physical
> 'klutz' to start with (which helps), but I don't think he's really out
> of the normal distribution of human physical skills.

Dylan,

Out of curiousity, did he have previous exposure to aviation (flying
with family, flying with you, gliders, etc)?

Cheers,
Sydney

[cliff02]

Accelerated training is far superior to long drawn out scheduling. I will
attempt to tell you why it is and why it works.

Long term memory is stored in various ways. There is implicit memory and
explicit memory.

Explicit memorys are memories that we can consciously remember. Most of what
we commonly consider "memory" is explicit memory. Answers we give on exams
are a product of explicit memory. Everything you know and remember is
explicit memory. These memories are recalled from cues and links to other
memories. Declarative memories are general factual information and Episodic
memories are personal experiances or based on an episode. The amount of
emotion involved has a great deal to do with its long term retention. You
can't remember what you ate last month, but you can (if you are old enough)
remember what you were doing when Kennedy was shot 40 years ago! or when the
Shuttle blew up on take off some 20 years ago. Also pleasureable moments are
stored better,Can you remember when ... you get the point. Things learned in
a pleasureable atmosphere are retained much longer. In an accelerated
learning atmosphere, you are concentrating on one thing, learning. All other
family stress, job stress, telephones, that normally cause interference to
learning are not present. Think about the once a week student that had a bad
week at the office and came in for a lesson and was thinking about all the
weeks worth of crap that just happened to him, he is trying to learn what
the instructor is saying but doesn't really learn anything. Accelerated
training just doesn't involve anything but a positive learning environment.
The student is learning rapidly and having an enjoyable experiance, which
reinforces the long term retention of the information. The plateau that all
students have when trying to land goes by so fast they don't get discouraged
and quit. The onece a week student gets discouraged when after three or four
or eight weeks go by and they still can't land the plane. They say I just
can't do this and quit. My students are usually soloing on the 3rd or 4th
day, and landing better than most of the commercial students from the big
141 schools that come into our little airport. This might be hard to believe
but it's true.

Implicit memories are memories that we do not consciously remember, which
influence our behavior, These are the memories that we instill by proper
conditioning. These are also the memories that come into play during an
emergency. Primal thought patterns that were injected correctly in the
beginning will come back with no thought at all. The conditioning takes
repetition for laong term storage. The decay rate of long term memory is
something also to consider. The average person will retain about 95 % of the
information presented by the next day. By the 7th day this is down to %80
and by day 10 it is %70. The positive reinforcement on the next day is far
superior to the once a week student. The average person can learn about 7
concepts per day, I generally only introduce about 5, then reinforce them
the next day and introduce 5 more. The understanding is important to the
long term memory retention so I discuss each concept to a depth that they
can apply, such as airspace rules. Don't just recite them to me , what does
that mean to you as a VFR pilot, how do you apply that information.

The other key ingredient is the instructor. He must be so passionate
about"TEACHING" not just a passenger building time. All instructors could
not teach this method, in fact i would say that most could not, from what I
have seen out there! Also all students cannot learn by this method, or any
method for that matter. Each individual has hei/her own needs and the
instruction needs to be taylored to that person. That is why I don't like
the 141 approach to cutting cookies. I do however use the course sylibus and
checklists from a 141 program to record the progress and be sure all
material has been covered.

I have taught many students to fly in 10 days, never had an accident or
insurance claim of any kind on any of my aircraft, and have produced very
competent pilots!
I hope I can get some of them to take a little time to come on line to tell
you of their experiance!

Cliff Manley
Perfect Planes, Inc.
www.perfectplanes.com

[cliff02]

Oh, and for those of you that think I'm in this for the money, aren' in the
business. There simply is no money in this business, If you don't love it
you better find something else to do with your time! Also financially it
would be better for me to have 5 to 8 students a day, each running out 80
hours. 80 hours is more income than 40! But I don't because it's not better!
It's better to know one student at a time and know what they need and what
you are going to each minute. How many times with the once a week student
does the instructor look in their logbook just to try and remember what they
did last time? Think about it and you will see my point. And if you don't I
don't care anyway! The students are trained well at a low cost, and have fun
doing it!

I love it!
Cliff

[Sydney Hoeltzli]

Dylan Smith wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:08:21 -0400, G.R. Patterson III >
> wrote:

>>There was a study done about 1970 on the differences in long-term learning
>>between those who "crammed" for exams versus those who prepared by studying
>>lessons throughout the semester.

> How does this relate to retention of physical skills?

I don't know what your experience is nor what the study says about this,
but my own experience is "physical skills: use 'em or lose 'em".

Cheers,
Sydney

[Capt. Mike]

Robert -

When u did that 707 at Pan AM in 1967, the philosophy was to teach "how the
system operates". When I did 727 at Pan AM in 1988 the philosophy was to
teach "how to operate the system" rather then "how the system operates". And
that is still the case as we speak. call it economics, change of heart (as
far as the FAA is concerened) or whatever, but that's reality. No one care
to know the type of, or color of the wires in the electrical system anymore.
I'm not going to fix it or build it. just fly it.

Happy flying......Mike....


"Robert Moore" > wrote in message
. 6...
> (Corky Scott) wrote
> > Knowledge is knowledge. If it stays in you, what
> > does it matter how quickly you are taught it?
>
> But it doesn't stay Corky. Some more of that stuff
> that every kindergarden teacher is required to study
> in college that the average flight instructor has no
> clue about. Long term and short term memory and the
> methods and conditions required for transferring
> learning from one to the other.
>
> The FAA "Fundamentals of Instruction", universally
> condemmed by flight instructors, contains very good
> information about the teaching-learning process but in
> such condensed form that in "rote" learning it just to
> pass the test, flight instructors retain nothing from it.
>
> The 10-day quicky course relies almost solely on rote
> learning and I quote from the FOI, "Avoid rote learning,
> for it does not foster transfer".
>
> When I first joined PanAm way back in 1967, the Initial
> Qualification program for the B-707 was six months long.
> The Electrical System covered almost a complete week by
> itself. At the end, I personally felt well qualified.
> At the end in 1991, that same Initial Qualification course
> required only two months. Same basic information taught,
> just not enough time to learn and retain it. Electrical
> in the morning followed by hydraulics and flight controls
> that same afternoon. It wasn't very effective training.
>
> Bob Moore
> Teaching since 1962

[diabolik]

hello there

it took me close to 18 months. not to say that it is not safe to do it quicker,
but view is anything less than three months is too quick. there are still areas
that i need to practice to be a safe pilot (ie: unusual attitudes and spins ).
i think 10 days is pure folly .

rgds
dean licheri (tyro ppl)


On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, Gilan wrote:
>I just started flying at a school that offers Private Pilot in 10 days. I
>plan on taking a bit longer then 10 days but wondered how long the average
>person takes to complete their PPL?
>
>Private Pilot in 10 days
> http://www.perfectplanes.com/index.html
>
>--
>Have a good day and stay out of the trees!
> See ya on Sport Aircraft group
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sport_Aircraft/
>
>Join "The Ultralight & Experimental Aircraft SiteRing"
>http://pub27.bravenet.com/sitering/add.php?usernum=2286862090

[Gilan]

well I've been at it off and on for many years and now I decided to finish
it. Over the years I would just get an hour or so here and there but this
time I'm going until I finish. I think a person can get their license in 10
days with an instructor like I have. If you have the time to put everything
else on hold and concentrate on nothing else for the 10 days I think it can
be done. I'm hoping I can get 3 to 4 hours a week in so I should be done in
short time.

--
Have a good day and stay out of the trees!
See ya on Sport Aircraft group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sport_Aircraft/

Join "The Ultralight & Experimental Aircraft SiteRing"
http://pub27.bravenet.com/sitering/add.php?usernum=2286862090

"diabolik" wrote ...
> hello there
>
> it took me close to 18 months. not to say that it is not safe to do it
quicker,
> but view is anything less than three months is too quick. there are still
areas
> that i need to practice to be a safe pilot (ie: unusual attitudes and
spins ).
> i think 10 days is pure folly .
>
> rgds
> dean licheri (tyro ppl)
>
>
> On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, Gilan wrote:
> >I just started flying at a school that offers Private Pilot in 10 days. I
> >plan on taking a bit longer then 10 days but wondered how long the
average
> >person takes to complete their PPL?
> >
> >Private Pilot in 10 days
> > http://www.perfectplanes.com/index.html
> >