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Allan Meuli
July 11th 03, 01:12 AM
>
> Anyone have a reliable source of Canadian charts for an occasionally
> homesick canuk?
>


www.lakeandair.com

Al

Steve Foley
July 11th 03, 01:51 AM
Can't you simply refuse delivery?

"journeyman" > wrote in message
u.com...
>
> Just got off the phone with them and I am Not Pleased. I put in a
> web order this morning for the Canadian CFS and some approach plates.
> They're on a 56-day cycle, my current set expires today and I was
> hoping to do trip this weekend. So, I was willing to pay extra for
> next-day service.
>
> Got a voice mail at 3:15 saying the charts were on back order. So,
> I called to cancel the next-day shipping. Apparently, the IFR hood
> I tacked onto the order (old one's no longer usable) was already
> shipped, so they will bill me for overnight shipping for the entire
> order. I'm willing to pay extra to have the charts tomorrow. They're
> charging for it but failing provide what they charged for. Not enough
> to be worth the time and energy to fight it, but annoying enough for
> me to do no further business with them.
>
> Anyone have a reliable source of Canadian charts for an occasionally
> homesick canuk?
>
>
> Morris

Paul Tomblin
July 11th 03, 03:05 AM
In a previous article, (Ben Jackson) said:
>Same thing happened to me when I tried to buy a CFS from Sporties.
>Canada doesn't sell them direct to the US anymore, so I'm not sure
>there IS an alternate source.

My CFS, CAP-4, LO-4/5, TA-1/2 just arrived today, direct from NavCanada to
my home in the US.


--
Paul Tomblin >, not speaking for anybody
"The Computer made me do it."

journeyman
July 11th 03, 04:20 AM
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:46:34 -0400, G.R. Patterson III
> wrote:

>> Just got off the phone with them and I am Not Pleased.
>
>Were I in your shoes, I would call VISA (which is what I use) and stop
>payment on the order.

Which reminds me, I used my AOPA Mastercard, so I should take this up
with AOPA for whatever good that will do...

Morris (not so naive to believe it would actually do any good...)

journeyman
July 11th 03, 04:29 AM
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 20:51:19 -0400, Steve Foley
> wrote:
>Can't you simply refuse delivery?

Good idea. I'll ask the doorman downstairs about the possibility
tomorrow. Thanks for the suggestion.


Morris (amazed that living in an apartment doesn't completely suck)

journeyman
July 11th 03, 04:32 AM
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 00:14:00 GMT, David Megginson > wrote:
>
>> Anyone have a reliable source of Canadian charts for an occasionally
>> homesick canuk?
>
>These guys are just around the corner from me:
>
> http://www.worldofmaps.com/
> (800) 214-8524
>
>I was in there a couple of days ago, and they told me that shipping to
>the U.S. is no problem.

Cool. I'm planning to drive up to Ottawa in a couple of weeks for a
visit. I'll plan to drop in on them. Sounds like it's similar to a
store in Seattle (which sells all maps except aviation) that I have
used (and hope to use again) for topo maps of hiking trails.


Morris

journeyman
July 11th 03, 04:37 AM
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 02:05:45 +0000 (UTC), Paul Tomblin
> wrote:
>In a previous article, (Ben Jackson) said:
>>Same thing happened to me when I tried to buy a CFS from Sporties.
>>Canada doesn't sell them direct to the US anymore, so I'm not sure
>>there IS an alternate source.
>
>My CFS, CAP-4, LO-4/5, TA-1/2 just arrived today, direct from NavCanada to
>my home in the US.

Yeah, I need all those, plus CAP-5.

Last time I checked the NavCanada site, they only shipped on
subscription. Until I stop renting and buy my own plane, I might only
buy one or two sets in a year. I'm hoping to do my 300-NM solo cross
country by taking a trip up to Montreal some time this summer.


Morris

Sydney Hoeltzli
July 11th 03, 05:38 AM
journeyman wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:46:34 -0400, G.R. Patterson III
> > wrote:
>>>Just got off the phone with them and I am Not Pleased.

>>Were I in your shoes, I would call VISA (which is what I use) and stop
>>payment on the order.

> Which reminds me, I used my AOPA Mastercard, so I should take this up
> with AOPA for whatever good that will do...
> Morris (not so naive to believe it would actually do any good...)

Morris, I'm confused, are you saying that writing the Mastercard
people won't do you any good? If you feel you've been billed for
a service you didn't receive (overnight shipping of charts which
were out of stock). Draft a letter disputing the charge. Then
call Sporty's, talk to the manager, tell them you're about to send
off a letter disputing the charge, and ask if they would like to
make an adjustment now, instead. Let them know that people on the
internet are waiting to see how they respond. I was about to order
a couple of things from Sporty's actually but I can live without
them or go elsewhere.

The FBO we were fueling with didn't give us a discount they'd
promised. DH was checking the bills, and didn't notice. It
had been going on for a couple months by the time I did. They
weren't going to credit us, and were kind of snippy to DH about
it until I called and pointed out it was still within the time
frame for us to send a letter disputing the charge to our credit
card company and I had one drafted. Instant "Sea Change" to "Ok,
we'll give you the credit, just please examine your bill more
promptly and call to update fuel prices next time".

BTW I dunno if they have Canadian charts but we've had good service
from Airways (http://www.flyairways.com) plus they're considerably
cheaper than Sporty's, and if they have what you need, our local pilot
shop Outer Marker will also go the extra mile for you
(http://www.outermarker.com).

Good luck,
Sydney



Heh.
Sydney

Richard Kaplan
July 11th 03, 06:12 AM
"journeyman" > wrote in message
u.com...

> Anyone have a reliable source of Canadian charts for an occasionally
> homesick canuk?


I switched from Sporty's to Airways (www.flyairways.com) for similar reasons
and have been much happier with their reliability and customer service.
They do list Canadian charts on their website.

Besides better service, they are cheaper too!

--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

Steve House
July 11th 03, 06:49 AM
"journeyman" > wrote in message
u.com...
>
> snip ....them.
>
> Anyone have a reliable source of Canadian charts for an occasionally
> homesick canuk?


www.aviationworld.net

David Megginson
July 11th 03, 11:57 AM
(journeyman) writes:

> Cool. I'm planning to drive up to Ottawa in a couple of weeks for a
> visit. I'll plan to drop in on them. Sounds like it's similar to a
> store in Seattle (which sells all maps except aviation) that I have
> used (and hope to use again) for topo maps of hiking trails.

World of Maps is definitely worth a visit for anyone even remotely
interested in cartography. It's at Holland and Wellington, about 10
minutes' drive from Centretown (five blocks west of the Ottawa Bagel
Shop).

If you're going to be flying to Canada semi-regularly, you're much
better off subscribing for the CFS and the IFR charts:

http://www.navcanada.ca/contentEN/aeropubs/default.asp

The price difference is significant. Individually, the CFS costs CAD
29.00, or CAD 203.00 for all seven in a year. If you subscribe, you
get seven editions of the CFS for CAD 99.00 instead. The same thing
works for the CAP and the IFR charts. You will have a CAD 35.00
handling charge on the order for the U.S. (CAD 30.00 for within
Canada), so it makes sense to get more than just the CFS if you're
interested.

I personally find it very cool having all this stuff arrive
shrinkwrapped at my house every few weeks, always promptly (usually in
several separate packages). I subscribe to the CFS, the Ontario and
Quebec CAPs, the IFR Terminal Area Charts, and the a LO chart for
Windsor-Quebec, all for about the same cost as buying just a year's
worth of CFS's at the store.


All the best,


David

--
David Megginson, , http://www.megginson.com/

Paul Tomblin
July 11th 03, 12:42 PM
In a previous article, (journeyman) said:
>Last time I checked the NavCanada site, they only shipped on
>subscription. Until I stop renting and buy my own plane, I might only

Well, I've got a subscription. Considering that a year's worth of charts
costs less than three times as much as one set of charts, it seemed
logical to me.

The NavCanada web site lists www.aerotraining.com as another US
distributor if you don't want to go to Sportys. I just looked, and they
only want $13.49 for the CFS.

--
Paul Tomblin >, not speaking for anybody
"If you would like a transcript of this program, sit next to your radio with a
pencil and paper and write really fast." - The WRVO Playhouse.

David Megginson
July 11th 03, 01:05 PM
David Megginson > writes:

> World of Maps is definitely worth a visit for anyone even remotely
> interested in cartography. It's at Holland and Wellington, about 10
> minutes' drive from Centretown (five blocks west of the Ottawa Bagel
> Shop).

For "west", read "east" -- not that pilots are supposed to be good
with directions, of course.


All the best,


David

--
David Megginson, , http://www.megginson.com/

John Clonts
July 11th 03, 01:50 PM
journeyman > wrote in message
u.com...
>
> Just got off the phone with them and I am Not Pleased. I put in a
> web order this morning for the Canadian CFS and some approach plates.
> They're on a 56-day cycle, my current set expires today and I was
> hoping to do trip this weekend. So, I was willing to pay extra for
> next-day service.
>
> Got a voice mail at 3:15 saying the charts were on back order. So,
> I called to cancel the next-day shipping. Apparently, the IFR hood
> I tacked onto the order (old one's no longer usable) was already
> shipped, so they will bill me for overnight shipping for the entire
> order. I'm willing to pay extra to have the charts tomorrow. They're
> charging for it but failing provide what they charged for. Not enough
> to be worth the time and energy to fight it, but annoying enough for
> me to do no further business with them.
>
> Anyone have a reliable source of Canadian charts for an occasionally
> homesick canuk?
>

I've been very happy with mypilotstore.com-- they once made good on a
misunderstanding that was mostly my fault. I've had my chart subscription
with them ever since (a year or so). I see that they now have Canadian
Charts...

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas

journeyman
July 11th 03, 02:55 PM
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 04:38:27 GMT, Sydney Hoeltzli > wrote:
>> Which reminds me, I used my AOPA Mastercard, so I should take this up
>> with AOPA for whatever good that will do...
>> Morris (not so naive to believe it would actually do any good...)
>
>Morris, I'm confused, are you saying that writing the Mastercard
>people won't do you any good? If you feel you've been billed for

I'm saying I should persue it with AOPA, since AOPA advertizes Sporty's.
And Sporty's takes AOPA membership numbers for a discount. Since my
dissatisfaction fell on deaf ears at Sporty's, maybe AOPA is another
avenue to get Sporty's attention. I just don't think it'll really
accomplish anything.

>a service you didn't receive (overnight shipping of charts which
>were out of stock). Draft a letter disputing the charge. Then

From my perspective, that's what happened. From their perspective,
I made a rush order that they could only partially fulfill. For me,
the rush was the charts. They rushed an IFR hood I could get anywhere,
anytime.

I think they screwed up. I've already cancelled the back-ordered
charts. When the hood arrives I will send it back to them and they
will issue a refund according to their policy. We'll probably argue
over who should be responsible for the return shipping (I say it was
their error; based on my conversation with them about the shipping,
they'll probably insist that they shipped what I asked for), but they
will issue the refund according to their policy. That will be the end
of that and I will never order from Sporty's again.

What I'm annoyed about is them sending the hood overnight and billing
me for the premium delivery. The extra $20 or so for the shipping
is a small irritation in the grand scheme of things, but I'm not
willing to pay it for something that isn't a rush. The rush was for
the charts, which they could not deliver on.

The fact that they can't deliver the charts on time, while annoying
in itself, is not something I can blame them for. It's clearly
beyond their control. Fine. In that case, it's no longer a rush,
but I want the charts anyway when they do arrive.

If they had any business sense, they'd eat the cost of the rush
shipping for the hood, and send me the back-ordered charts regular
delivery when they do arrive (assuming I didn't find the charts needed
for the weekend flight elsewhere). They'd have retained a customer
instead of a ****ed-off ex-customer. Even issuing an in-store credit
to cut their losses would've left me satisfied.

The only leverage I have in this situation is their desire for retain
the goodwill of a customer, or my bitching about it in public. They're
not interested in the former, so I'm willing to post my complaint here.

>make an adjustment now, instead. Let them know that people on the
>internet are waiting to see how they respond. I was about to order
>a couple of things from Sporty's actually but I can live without
>them or go elsewhere.

I appreciate that.

I realize this is petty in the grand scheme of things. Every once
of these really petty things sets me off way out of proportion.
Mostly it's the cumultive irritation of all the other ignored petty
irritations of life. Not to mention the major irritations that I
can do nothing about...

My spleen is sufficiently vented for the moment.


>Good luck,

Thanks. I'm going to try to beg/borrow/steal a CFS for Sunday and
forego the IAPs.

Thanks to everyone for the alternate source suggestions.


Morris

Tim Bengtson
July 11th 03, 03:14 PM
journeyman wrote:

> From my perspective, that's what happened. From their perspective,
> I made a rush order that they could only partially fulfill. For me,
> the rush was the charts. They rushed an IFR hood I could get anywhere,
> anytime.

Here's my perspective. You're going to disagree with it.

You're taking a trip this weekend, so on Thursday you think to look at
your charts and find that they expire that day. You call Sporty's and
order some. "Yeah, I'm in a big hurry, so I'll pay extra for fast
shipping. Oh--throw in an IFR hood, too." Sporty's found that the
charts were on backorder and called you asap. You were not there, so
they left a voice mail. They knew you were in a hurry, so they rushed
what they could. Since only the charts were important to you, and not
the hood, you're mad that they want you to pay for overnight shipping on
the hood. You get on the newsgroup and scream about what assholes they
are at Sporty's.

Many here dislike Sporty's, so you're not alone. However, this problem
would have been avoided if you had been a little more careful managing
your chart inventory.

Tim

Ron Natalie
July 11th 03, 03:54 PM
"journeyman" > wrote in message u.com...
> On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:46:34 -0400, G.R. Patterson III
> > wrote:
>
> >> Just got off the phone with them and I am Not Pleased.
> >
> >Were I in your shoes, I would call VISA (which is what I use) and stop
> >payment on the order.
>
> Which reminds me, I used my AOPA Mastercard, so I should take this up
> with AOPA for whatever good that will do...
>
It won't do much to tallk to AOPA. AOPA's interest is how much of a kickback
MBNA will give them. MBNA's credit card department (ohter than
their habit of losing the rebate requrests) actually isn't too bad. I can't say
the same for MBNA's aircraft loan department. What a bunch of jerks.

Jeff Franks
July 11th 03, 06:53 PM
> I could have avoided the problem by not adding in the noncritical item.
>
> I could have avoided the problem by phoning in the order instead of
> using the web.
>

****WARNING - DEVIL'S ADVOCATE AHEAD****

When the order hit the shipping department, if they had said, "Well its not
the entire order, so we'll wait until we hear from him to determine whether
to ship it or not". Then when they can't reach you to determine what to do,
they don't ship ANYTHING because they don't want to overnight the wrong
part. I would be more furious with that scenario.

If you were in DIRE need of the hood and agreed to pay for overnight
shipping....and oh yeah throw in some new approach plates too. Wouldn't you
now be singing the praises of how efficient Sporty's is? How were they to
know which part was needed in a hurry?

journeyman
July 11th 03, 08:41 PM
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 12:53:55 -0500, Jeff Franks
> wrote:
>
>When the order hit the shipping department, if they had said, "Well its not
>the entire order, so we'll wait until we hear from him to determine whether
>to ship it or not". Then when they can't reach you to determine what to do,
>they don't ship ANYTHING because they don't want to overnight the wrong
>part. I would be more furious with that scenario.
>
>If you were in DIRE need of the hood and agreed to pay for overnight
>shipping....and oh yeah throw in some new approach plates too. Wouldn't you
>now be singing the praises of how efficient Sporty's is? How were they to
>know which part was needed in a hurry?

This is not entirely unreasonable from a distance. Thing is, someone
from the cutomer service department took the time and trouble (i.e.
did what they're supposed to be paid to do) to call and leave a voice
message, but left out 2 key elements: 1) that they would proceed with
the partial shipment, and 2) that if it wasn't my preference, to call
back before [some arbitrary time]. Even then, I did call them back,
only a few minutes after [some arbitrary time]. If they had handled
that half-assed voice message properly in the first place, when I didn't
get it in time, I might have been inclined to be more "reasonable" about
the situation.

Put things in the worst possible light (for me): they tried their best
and had to guess my wishes. They guessed wrong even if they tried to
do the Right Thing. I still say they should eat the extra cost of the
wrong guess just to keep a repeat customer happy. Anything less than
that might or might not be tolerable. Today, I don't find it tolerable.
Tomorrow, I might quietly accept it and just find another supplier.
Last week, I might just shrug it off and continue doing business with
them. Next month, who knows?

Most customers won't blow a gasket and go nonlinear in this situation.
As I acknowledged before, it's minor in the Grand Scheme of Things. One
doesn't have a very happy life if one can't let go of the small stuff.
It's really the cumulative effect of a lot of small stuff (and some big
stuff) that primes the fuse for the next one.

Besides, IFR hoods aren't exactly so rare that I would be desperate to
buy one from Sporty's on the day the charts roll over.

Compare this to another situation on this thread:

| I've been very happy with mypilotstore.com-- they once made good on a
| misunderstanding that was mostly my fault. I've had my chart subscription
| with them ever since (a year or so).

This is how to handle customer service issues and the result is a loyal,
happy customer. If you can't compete on price (and Sporty's doesn't),
what else do you have to go on?

This is the highest possible recommendation. Last time I looked at
mypilotstore.com, they didn't have Canadian charts. Now that they do,
guess where I'm going to be buy my charts from now on.


Morris (with thanks for the recommendations of alternate suppliers)

Tim Bengtson
July 11th 03, 09:02 PM
journeyman wrote:

> Most customers won't blow a gasket and go nonlinear in this situation.

No kidding.

Tim

Jeff Franks
July 11th 03, 09:23 PM
> Besides, IFR hoods aren't exactly so rare that I would be desperate to
> buy one from Sporty's on the day the charts roll over.
>

LOL, I thought about that as I typed it....was wishing you had "thrown in"
something to your order that made more sense that you MIGHT someday need in
a hurry :)

> Compare this to another situation on this thread:
>
> | I've been very happy with mypilotstore.com-- they once made good on a
> | misunderstanding that was mostly my fault. I've had my chart
subscription
> | with them ever since (a year or so).
>
> This is how to handle customer service issues and the result is a loyal,
> happy customer. If you can't compete on price (and Sporty's doesn't),
> what else do you have to go on?


Agreed. I don't usually do the Sporty's route either. Being that I work
daily in customer service, I just wanted the opportunity to argue with a
"customer" 8^). Right or wrong, they don't appear to be going out of their
way in the slightest to help. That's not a good perception from a customers
point of view.

Paul Tomblin
July 11th 03, 09:30 PM
In a previous article, (journeyman) said:
>the partial shipment, and 2) that if it wasn't my preference, to call
>back before [some arbitrary time]. Even then, I did call them back,

Most warehouses are not manned 24 hours a day, and even if they are, it
would be rare indeed to find customer service and the warehouse
communicate with each other outside of regular business hours. I don't
see how "call before 5pm" should need to be spelled out.

>Besides, IFR hoods aren't exactly so rare that I would be desperate to
>buy one from Sporty's on the day the charts roll over.

Do you know many pilots who work as stock pickers and shippers in a
warehouse? Because if you only want to deal with companies where the
person packing stuff knows what it is and exactly what it's used for,
you're going to have to restrict yourself to operations a LOT smaller than
Sporty's.


--
Paul Tomblin >, not speaking for anybody
"It's 106 light-years to Chicago, we've got a full chamber of anti-matter,
a half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're wearing visors."
"Engage."

journeyman
July 11th 03, 10:14 PM
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 15:23:36 -0500, Jeff Franks
> wrote:
>
>> This is how to handle customer service issues and the result is a loyal,
>> happy customer. If you can't compete on price (and Sporty's doesn't),
>> what else do you have to go on?
>
>
>Agreed. I don't usually do the Sporty's route either. Being that I work
>daily in customer service, I just wanted the opportunity to argue with a
>"customer" 8^). Right or wrong, they don't appear to be going out of their
>way in the slightest to help. That's not a good perception from a customers
>point of view.

And that boils down to my entire point. It's about how well a company
does exception handling. In software and in customer service, the
bulk of the effort goes into those supposedly rare conditions.

If your solution is to blow of the one unhappy customer, you're also
blowing off that customer's future orders which will go smoothly
on average. Right or wrong, when an exception happens, my expectation
is for them to go the extra mile.


Morris

journeyman
July 11th 03, 10:26 PM
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 13:02:10 -0700, Tim Bengtson
> wrote:
>
>> Most customers won't blow a gasket and go nonlinear in this situation.
>
>No kidding.

But the 9, 99, or 999 incidents (depending on your fuse length), which
have nothing to do with Sporty's (in this case) will prime that pump.

I know a guy whose fuse is set at 1 and has had what can only be
described as a wasted life. He's invariably right and articulate in
arguing his case, but that kind of energy is usually better spent
fighting bigger battles.

I am really sufficiently vented on this and ready to move on...


Morris

journeyman
July 11th 03, 11:33 PM
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 21:24:26 GMT, EDR > wrote:
>
>None of the posts I have read indicate that he has even called SPORTY's
>to discuss the matter. Lots of whining here in the group, though.

4 phone calls yesterday and an email today.

I just (end of day Friday) received an email back from someone who
finally agreed to refund the excess shipping charges. Given their
attitude yesterday, I'm pleasantly surprised today's email got a
satisfactory response.

After yesterday's experience, I was pretty much resigned to having
"whining here in the group" as my only recourse.


Morris (somtimes you just need a small victory to keep going)

G.R. Patterson III
July 12th 03, 03:00 AM
EDR wrote:
>
> None of the posts I have read indicate that he has even called SPORTY's
> to discuss the matter.

Then you obviously didn't read the original post.

George Patterson
The optimist feels that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The
pessimist is afraid that he's correct.
James Branch Cavel

john smith
July 12th 03, 04:51 AM
> > None of the posts I have read indicate that he has even called SPORTY's
> > to discuss the matter.
>
> Then you obviously didn't read the original post.

Yes I did.
The original post only said he called to cancel the order.
No mention was made about correcting the charges.

Michelle P
July 14th 03, 10:01 PM
Morris,

www.jeppesen.com

they have both IFR and VFR charts.

I have been dealing with them for over ten years, very few problems. Pay
a little extra but it is worth the service.

Michelle

journeyman wrote:

>Just got off the phone with them and I am Not Pleased. I put in a
>web order this morning for the Canadian CFS and some approach plates.
>They're on a 56-day cycle, my current set expires today and I was
>hoping to do trip this weekend. So, I was willing to pay extra for
>next-day service.
>
>Got a voice mail at 3:15 saying the charts were on back order. So,
>I called to cancel the next-day shipping. Apparently, the IFR hood
>I tacked onto the order (old one's no longer usable) was already
>shipped, so they will bill me for overnight shipping for the entire
>order. I'm willing to pay extra to have the charts tomorrow. They're
>charging for it but failing provide what they charged for. Not enough
>to be worth the time and energy to fight it, but annoying enough for
>me to do no further business with them.
>
>Anyone have a reliable source of Canadian charts for an occasionally
>homesick canuk?
>
>
>Morris
>
>

--

Michelle P CP-ASMEL-IA, and AMT-A&P

"Elisabeth" a Maule M-7-235B (no two are alike)

Volunteer Pilot, AirLifeLine

Volunteer Builder, Habitat for Humanity

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