Suggestions and/or help, please!

[Jay Honeck]

Our local newspaper is on the warpath again against the airport. See it at:

http://www.press-citizen.com/opinion/pceditorials/staffedit070903.htm

Several of us have written letters, and I have spoken with anyone who will
listen about the "crown jewel" of Iowa City (as we refer to it -- it really
IS the best G.A. airport in the Midwest) -- but with the budget cuts coming
down the pike I'm afraid the idea of closing the airport is gaining traction
amongst the university crowd. Any suggestions?

For those of you who have visited our wonderful facility in Iowa City, it
would be GREAT if you could send the editor a letter outlining your positive
experiences here.

Thanks!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Kyle Boatright]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:eTBPa.36352$H17.11174@sccrnsc02...
> Our local newspaper is on the warpath again against the airport. See it
at:
>
> http://www.press-citizen.com/opinion/pceditorials/staffedit070903.htm
>
> Several of us have written letters, and I have spoken with anyone who will
> listen about the "crown jewel" of Iowa City (as we refer to it -- it
really
> IS the best G.A. airport in the Midwest) -- but with the budget cuts
coming
> down the pike I'm afraid the idea of closing the airport is gaining
traction
> amongst the university crowd. Any suggestions?
>
> For those of you who have visited our wonderful facility in Iowa City, it
> would be GREAT if you could send the editor a letter outlining your
positive
> experiences here.
>
> Thanks!
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

Jay,

First, the municipality funded infrastructure SHOULD pay for itself. Hangar
rent should pay for the debt service on the hangars and for upkeep. Etc.
Etc. Etc. Perhaps some fee increases are needed (yuck).

That said, arguing that the airport doesn't bring business to the community
is similar to arguing that roads don't bring business to the community.
Transportation facilitates business, it doesn't bring business on its own
accord. BUT, try to bring business to town without adequate transportation.

Beyond that, the airport generates jobs. How many people are employed doing
airport related business? Cutting the grass... Pumping fuel... Maintaining
aircraft? Renting cars and hotel space? Also, how much personal property
and fuel tax does the airport generate? Is that in the newspaper's
equation?

Going a bit further, how much income does the fire department, the local
park generate, or repaving a road create for the town? Certainly one can
argue that you could identify any government function and call for its
elimination based on the fact that it doesn't pay for itself. Nothing the
government does pays for itself, that's why we have taxes.

Good luck...

KB

[Checkerbird]

A couple years ago my city bought a privately-owned airport (City of Wichita
Falls TX, Kickapoo Airport T47) amid lots of political controversy that the city
would be "subsidizing rich people's toys". But the airport has been profitable
for the city, not only paying *all* its operating expenses, but also the past
year's budget reports show the airport funneling about $77K profit back into the
city's general funds. Surely Iowa City's airport, if managed wisely, ought to be
able to support itself as well.

[Jay Honeck]

> A couple years ago my city bought a privately-owned airport (City of
Wichita
> Falls TX, Kickapoo Airport T47) amid lots of political controversy that
the city
> would be "subsidizing rich people's toys". But the airport has been
profitable
> for the city, not only paying *all* its operating expenses, but also the
past
> year's budget reports show the airport funneling about $77K profit back
into the
> city's general funds. Surely Iowa City's airport, if managed wisely, ought
to be
> able to support itself as well.

I would be interested to see a financial statement for that airport. How
are they doing it?

Other than airports with commercial airline (either passenger or freight)
operations, I've never seen one that makes a "profit" yet.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
"Checkerbird" > wrote in message
...

[Ben Smith]

Doesn't the City have to ante so much of their own money to get federal
dollars for improvements? And if they have received funds in the past, how
easy is it to just 'close' the airport? I don't think they could get away
with a 'Meigs' style closing.

Here in Wisconsin, despite a couple billion dollar deficit, there are a
bunch of improvements going on at small airfields. I just got my Wis DOT
published Airport Directory in the mail, and I was surprised to see a hand
full of airports with remarks about runway extensions, etc.., all to be
completed this year. Morey Airport west of Madison is getting a 4000x100
foot runway, more hangar lots for lease, etc.

--
Ben
C-172 - N13258 @ 87Y

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:eTBPa.36352$H17.11174@sccrnsc02...
> Our local newspaper is on the warpath again against the airport. See it
at:
>
> http://www.press-citizen.com/opinion/pceditorials/staffedit070903.htm
>
> Several of us have written letters, and I have spoken with anyone who will
> listen about the "crown jewel" of Iowa City (as we refer to it -- it
really
> IS the best G.A. airport in the Midwest) -- but with the budget cuts
coming
> down the pike I'm afraid the idea of closing the airport is gaining
traction
> amongst the university crowd. Any suggestions?
>
> For those of you who have visited our wonderful facility in Iowa City, it
> would be GREAT if you could send the editor a letter outlining your
positive
> experiences here.
>
> Thanks!
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Jim]

I'll second Ben's post. Airports here in Wisconsin are getting a lot of
State and Fed funding. STE just got a new taxiway, ramp paving & seal
coating and plans are in the works for an ILS as well as a second taxiway.
MFI is getting partial Fed funding for an FBO building. Have their been any
improvements made lately? Who paid? Is the airport board awake? Have they
applied for any lately?

As for the university.... find out how many professors are pilots then talk
to them about how the university uses the airport. Do the sports teams fly
or take busses? What about the coaches and their recruiting staff members,
do they fly? Does the University have an aviation program? any airplanes?
If not see if the local FBO(s) or CFI's can organize a program. I can't see
how a "State" university's budget can be hampered by a "local" airport.
What kind of local funding do they think they will gain by closing a "local"
airport? Or is it just a bunch of university types thinking too hard and
out loud about things they know nothing about?

Does the airport have any "key" tenants? such as large businesses with
corporate airplanes or aviation departments? I know several airports such
as Lone Rock, Manitowoc, and Sheboygan have gotten improvements and are all
but invincible to local "closure" threats because they have a strong tie to
the large businesses (employment) in the area. Have an employer of a few
hundred people tell the city that they will move if they close the airport
and my guess is that it stays open. Our farm just was forced to "sell" the
state of Wisconsin an aviation navigation easement across the road from the
Lone Rock airport. A large corporation bases their aircraft there and just
bought a larger jet. The larger jet uses more runway so the state extended
the runway and provided more clear area, basically to keep the business
owner happy.

--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply
"Ben Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Doesn't the City have to ante so much of their own money to get federal
> dollars for improvements? And if they have received funds in the past,
how
> easy is it to just 'close' the airport? I don't think they could get away
> with a 'Meigs' style closing.
>
> Here in Wisconsin, despite a couple billion dollar deficit, there are a
> bunch of improvements going on at small airfields. I just got my Wis DOT
> published Airport Directory in the mail, and I was surprised to see a hand
> full of airports with remarks about runway extensions, etc.., all to be
> completed this year. Morey Airport west of Madison is getting a 4000x100
> foot runway, more hangar lots for lease, etc.
>
> --
> Ben
> C-172 - N13258 @ 87Y

[Jim]

Ok, I knew I shouldn't have done it, but I did.
I knew I'd be ****ed and I am..... but still I had to go and do it. I read
the newspaper article. Pardon me while I loose my mind.....

The editor claims that the city is forced to lay off firemen because of a
budget deficit. Obviously if they really needed that many fireman, they'd
raise taxes in order to keep the fire department adequately staffed and the
tax payers would be more than happy to foot the bill. The fact that they
CAN safely cut firemen from the force proves that they have been employing
too many whether they have a budget deficit or not. This bozo should be
chastising the fire department for over hiring and over spending! He
compares a municipal service that I assume is entirely funded by taxpayers
(fire department) to one that is 50% funded by it's users (airport).
hmmmm... now which service is pulling more of it's own weight? In my mind
the city is getting at least a 100% return on it's annual investment in the
airport. Maybe Iowa City's budget is soooo bad that they need a part time
or volunteer fire department that would be forced to hold fund raisers,
raffles, and apply for government grants to help subsidize itself.... wait!
some towns actually do that! Oh My GOD!!! How insane and radical!

Jay, you might hate this idea, but I've seen it work at several airports,
especially if all the hangers are full. The city sells it's hangers and
also sells lots for building new hangers. If the airport has debt on the
hangers, they could sell the hangers to the tenants and pay the debt. I
know several airports where the city has sold the hangers to the plane
owners but maintains ownership of the lot that the hangers sit on. The
tenant then pays property taxes on the improvements (adding to the tax base)
but not on the lot. If they would sell the hangers at fair market value it
may be more than the current debt against them and they might end up with
money left over to re-pave the approaches in front of each hanger or build
new taxiways to new hangers. What an idea, sell the hangers, pay the debt
and increase the tax base. That's more than the whining baby-assed editor
of that newspaper could come up with.

<Rant off>

--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:eTBPa.36352$H17.11174@sccrnsc02...
> Our local newspaper is on the warpath again against the airport. See it
at:
>
> http://www.press-citizen.com/opinion/pceditorials/staffedit070903.htm
>
> Several of us have written letters, and I have spoken with anyone who will
> listen about the "crown jewel" of Iowa City (as we refer to it -- it
really
> IS the best G.A. airport in the Midwest) -- but with the budget cuts
coming
> down the pike I'm afraid the idea of closing the airport is gaining
traction
> amongst the university crowd. Any suggestions?
>
> For those of you who have visited our wonderful facility in Iowa City, it
> would be GREAT if you could send the editor a letter outlining your
positive
> experiences here.
>
> Thanks!
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[David Megginson]

Checkerbird > writes:

> A couple years ago my city bought a privately-owned airport (City of
> Wichita Falls TX, Kickapoo Airport T47) amid lots of political
> controversy that the city would be "subsidizing rich people's
> toys". But the airport has been profitable for the city, not only
> paying *all* its operating expenses, but also the past year's budget
> reports show the airport funneling about $77K profit back into the
> city's general funds. Surely Iowa City's airport, if managed wisely,
> ought to be able to support itself as well.

From what I could gather in the newspaper story, the problem is not
the airport's general operations, but the cost of servicing a loan for
a bunch of hangars that the city perhaps shouldn't have bought. That
throws the story's conclusion a bit into doubt -- if the airport were
to close, the city would still have to pay off that loan, and would
have no offsetting revenue.

Jay: aside from the hangar loan, how close is the airport to breaking
even on operations?


All the best,


David

--
David Megginson, , http://www.megginson.com/

[David Megginson]

"Jay Honeck" > writes:

> The city spends $170,000 per year (approximately) on the airport.
> The Airport Manager -- a city employee with dubious and fuzzy duties
> -- earns probably $50K of that. His assistant (the guy who does all
> the work, mowing the lawns, etc.) has been with the city over 25
> years, so he's probably making nearly $50K himself. But, of course,
> there's no mention (either in the paper, or in City Hall) of
> eliminating THAT expense.
>
> The loan they are servicing is for a GIGANTIC maintenance hangar that a
> previous FBO (PS Air, still operational in Cedar Rapids, IA) insisted on
> having. Three years ago PS Air crapped out on the city, and literally
> trucked everything up to Cedar Rapids in the middle of the night without
> paying their rent.

That's net, after whatever the airport brings in? It would be
interesting to see a high-level P&L statement. It looks like HR is
the biggest expense, so a layoff would make sense -- the only danger
is that they'd give the airport manager several 100K in severance and
charge that to the airport as well.

The choice to build the big hangar is done, and the city is stuck
paying no matter what happens to the airport, just as they would be if
they had built a big sports stadium. Bad luck, dumb move, learn to
live with it, and try to learn from it. At least the hangar is a
cheaper mistake than a stadium by a couple of orders of magnitude.

How busy is your airport? If you weren't saddled with the expense of
the manager and the hangar loan, could you fund it from revenue?

It might make sense for the FBO (or more likely, a separate group
founded by the FBO, your hotel, and any other interested parties) to
go to the city and offer $1 to take over operations of the airport, on
the condition that the loan stays with the city. It wouldn't actually
do the city any fiscal good, but it would remove any cloud of doubt
over the airport itself, and the city and newspaper would be happy.
That would head off any attempt in the future to sell the airport to
build a subdivision, etc., if the city ends up more strapped for cash.


All the best,


David

--
David Megginson, , http://www.megginson.com/

[Jim]

I've heard of some cities that assign the airport manager's job to the
winning FBO bidder. The manager of the FBO is also the "airport manager".
Basically his duties are just to report to the citie the events and goings
on at the airport, collect hanger rent and stay awake between fuel
customers.
Jim Burns III

"David Megginson" > wrote in message
...
> "Jay Honeck" > writes:
>
> > The city spends $170,000 per year (approximately) on the airport.
> > The Airport Manager -- a city employee with dubious and fuzzy duties
> > -- earns probably $50K of that. His assistant (the guy who does all
> > the work, mowing the lawns, etc.) has been with the city over 25
> > years, so he's probably making nearly $50K himself. But, of course,
> > there's no mention (either in the paper, or in City Hall) of
> > eliminating THAT expense.
> >
> > The loan they are servicing is for a GIGANTIC maintenance hangar that a
> > previous FBO (PS Air, still operational in Cedar Rapids, IA) insisted on
> > having. Three years ago PS Air crapped out on the city, and literally
> > trucked everything up to Cedar Rapids in the middle of the night without
> > paying their rent.
>
> That's net, after whatever the airport brings in? It would be
> interesting to see a high-level P&L statement. It looks like HR is
> the biggest expense, so a layoff would make sense -- the only danger
> is that they'd give the airport manager several 100K in severance and
> charge that to the airport as well.
>
> The choice to build the big hangar is done, and the city is stuck
> paying no matter what happens to the airport, just as they would be if
> they had built a big sports stadium. Bad luck, dumb move, learn to
> live with it, and try to learn from it. At least the hangar is a
> cheaper mistake than a stadium by a couple of orders of magnitude.
>
> How busy is your airport? If you weren't saddled with the expense of
> the manager and the hangar loan, could you fund it from revenue?
>
> It might make sense for the FBO (or more likely, a separate group
> founded by the FBO, your hotel, and any other interested parties) to
> go to the city and offer $1 to take over operations of the airport, on
> the condition that the loan stays with the city. It wouldn't actually
> do the city any fiscal good, but it would remove any cloud of doubt
> over the airport itself, and the city and newspaper would be happy.
> That would head off any attempt in the future to sell the airport to
> build a subdivision, etc., if the city ends up more strapped for cash.
>
>
> All the best,
>
>
> David
>
> --
> David Megginson, , http://www.megginson.com/

[StellaStar]

>The city sells it's hangers and
>also sells lots for building new hangers. If the airport has debt on the
>hangers, they could sell the hangers to the tenants and pay the debt.

You're on the right track.
From what I've seen of Iowa City, it's growing in directions that include all
that lovely open land around the airport, and some developers are casting
covetous eyes upon the space for industrial and other uses. Trashing the
airport would give them a playground.

But I posted recently about the clever airport manager I talk to on occasion,
and another clever thing he's done, along with lots of ongoing work pacifying
homeowners who are too near the airport, is work slowly and steadily to get a
plot of land developed for new street and hangar space on an undeveloped side
of the airport.

The waiting list has been 8 years long for hangar space, and you can bet the
folks who'll get the new hangars are those who'll be valuable allies in the
preservation of the airport.

Plus, the new buildings will include non-hangar spaces too, plumbed and wired
(all with T-1 Net connections) office space for insurance agents, tax
preparers...ANY business in a fast-growing metro area that will generate tax
revenue and jobs. Just like a strip mall, it'll be seen as economic development
and do a lot to quiet critics of the "unused" space and its aviation subsidy.
There ARE solutions...

[C J Campbell]

The city could save even more money by not subsidizing roads. After all,
most of the automobiles on the roads are not even being used for business
purposes. Why should the city pay for roads being used only by a bunch of
hobbyists? The city needs that money for police and fire services. It should
stop paying for roads and jeopardizing public safety with this huge waste of
money.

The city should also stop subsidizing newspapers by providing police and
fire protection, utilities, and other services to them. Few intelligent
people read these works of fiction anyway. Why should taxpayers jeopardize
public safety in order to cater to a bunch of spoiled, whining hobbyists?

Perhaps if everyone at your airport wore badges that say "I use the airport,
and if the aiport is closed I will have to move away" so that every merchant
in town saw just how much their businesses are dependent on people who use
the airport, then maybe the newspaper might lose some advertising revenue.
Another approach might be, "The newspaper wants to close my business now. Is
yours next?"

[Cub Driver]

Has the airport ever been used for a medical evacuation?

I appreciate that helicopters are the traditional local medevac, but
every one in a while a badly injured or very sick patient has to be
flown to a distant hospital. (I remember a guy flown from Aspen to
Denver when he broke his back skiing, and this subject came up talking
to a young doctor last night. She's on emergency room standby and
ready to fly rotary or fixed-wing.)

What's the nearest alternative airport if a case like that came up?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

[Jay Honeck]

> Has the airport ever been used for a medical evacuation?

Actually, this is one of their biggest "businesses". University of Iowa
Hospitals and Clinics is one of the largest transplant centers in the
Midwest. It's also renowned for cancer treatment.

As such, we get a fairly constant stream of aircraft in, carrying nothing
but Igloo coolers.

Airport critics would say "so land at Cedar Rapids", which they claim is
just "20 minutes north". (Ha -- maybe in a Ferrari...), of course.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Margy Natalie]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> > Has the airport ever been used for a medical evacuation?
>
> Actually, this is one of their biggest "businesses". University of Iowa
> Hospitals and Clinics is one of the largest transplant centers in the
> Midwest. It's also renowned for cancer treatment.
>
> As such, we get a fairly constant stream of aircraft in, carrying nothing
> but Igloo coolers.
>
> Airport critics would say "so land at Cedar Rapids", which they claim is
> just "20 minutes north". (Ha -- maybe in a Ferrari...), of course.

Maybe you should call the transplant surgeons and ask them if the extra 20
-30 minutes makes a difference. I bet it does.

Margy

[Cub Driver]

>Actually, this is one of their biggest "businesses". University of Iowa
>Hospitals and Clinics is one of the largest transplant centers in the
>Midwest. It's also renowned for cancer treatment.

Then can't you get testimonials from the parents of some beautiful
child who was safely delivered / treated because of a fixed-wing
flight out of the airport?

Or get a photo of the guy with the Igloo cooler and run an advert with
the caption: "That may be *your* heart he's carrying!"

Or "This heart brought to you by Iowa City Airport".

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

[Greg Burkhart]

Here's an article that's good for airports:
http://www.kare11.com/news/news-article.asp?NEWS_ID=49293

[G.R. Patterson III]

Big John wrote:
>
> If they close the airport, how will the teams of the U of I get to
> away games and away teams get to Iowa City to play? Seems the
> University should have an input in this?

If Iowa is anything like the University of Tennessee, the administration
likes football 'cause it brings in money. Some uneducated slobs like it
as a substitute for the pro team they don't have. Some educated slobs like
it 'cause the went to school there.

All of the *real* intelligentsia hate it. All of the faculty hate it. From
what Jay has posted, I would guess that the paper is pandering to these
groups.

George Patterson
The optimist feels that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The
pessimist is afraid that he's correct.
James Branch Cavel

[Jay Honeck]

> If they close the airport, how will the teams of the U of I get to
> away games and away teams get to Iowa City to play? Seems the
> University should have an input in this?

They'll fly commercial out of Cedar Rapids. They do now, for many games,
cuz our runways aren't long enough to accommodate a charter plane big enough
to carry the whole football team.

> Has anyone checked the number of planes parked on airport when the
> football team plays?

Heh -- that would be me. Every game day I write all the "N" numbers down,
and send 'em a postcard -- so I know PRECISELY how many planes fly in for
games. Suffice it to say, it's dozens and dozens -- as many as 50 --
depending on the caliber and proximity of the team they're playing.

> Has anyone gotten together a committee with representatives of all the
> actifities/companies that need/use the airport and flood the council
> meetings to show support for airport?

Crap, Big John, I tried starting an "Iowa City Pilot's Association" here a
few months ago. I got as far as getting the "URL" for a website, and
getting the mailing list of all pilots in the area. Then I quickly ran out
of time when we hit the "busy season" at the inn, and the idea was
stillborn.

We really, REALLY need a "retired guy" with unlimited time to devote to this
endeavor, as a Pilot's Association would provide a positive voice that
simply isn't being heard here. It would even up the odds, since the
opposition seems to have DOZENS of "university guys" that apparently have
unlimited time to devote to bending people's ears... :(

> I sometimes think all of us Iowans with common sense got out when we
> could. <G>

Well, for better (and worse) Iowa City really ain't "Iowa"... At least not
the way most people think of it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[jeff]

>
> Airport critics would say "so land at Cedar Rapids", which they claim is
> just "20 minutes north". (Ha -- maybe in a Ferrari...), of course.

The Cedar Rapids airport is easily within 20 minutes of the Iowa City
airport.

A few challenges of the Iowa City Airport:
Small runways for charter planes (athletics)
Development around the airport- some see an accident into the
Wal-Mart/Menards just waiting to happen. Some recent crashes into
the hill to the north keep this argument going (BTW, I know that
there were reasons for the crashes)
Approach/departure over the city
Approach/Depature over Kinnick Stadium- last year during a game, a
dip**** flew over just to the south of the stadium at low
altitude.
For good measure, he rocked the wings. 70,000 people were quiet
for a few seconds.
Waste of good land- Why in the world do you need three crossing
runways?
Proximity to Cedar Rapids- Cedar Rapids- only about 15-20 min. away
Services at Cedar Rapids- Tower, security, ILS approaches, crossing
large runways, pleny of room for more GA hangars, snow removal,
police, fire, general maintenance, good hangars
Duplication- To the layperson (in fact even to me) it seems to be
close enough to each other that one would do. Iowa city would
not only have no expenses, but Cedar Rapids could become
stronger
Liberals- Iowa City is chuck pack full of liberals that really
don't
care about folks rich enough to be able to fly. Dailey Syndrome.
Medical flights- Most are by copter- doesn't matter
Transplant stuff- 20 minutes to CID no big deal. thats the reason
for the igloo's
FBO's- choice of two in Cedar Rapids (Although you probably would
not count PS Air)
Dollars- Lots of commercial operations to pay the way. Virtually
none in Iowa City.
Lack of potential growth- I do not believe that any two of the
three
runways could ever be expanded.
Opportunity costs- Current use vs. the tax base of developement.
The
newer hangar could have other uses if developed around. Money in
rather than money out looks good. The deal about streets doesn't
hold much water because virtually everybody uses the streets.
Liberals- did I mention all of the liberals?
Cedar Rapids Airport Commision- I think that they squashed the
Marion
Airport expansion a couple of years ago. It is my opinion that
they
will get in your shorts also (I am golfing with one of the
commission
members this week. I will pick his brain)
Plenty of land around the Cedar Rapids Airport- Enough room for a
re-located aviation themed hotel

It is certainly not that I would like to see it closed, they just have
plenty of reasons to close it. I personally feel that it is just a
matter of time.

Good luck,
Jeff

[jeff]

Did I mention that our Govorner Vilsak has cut spending on airports to
virtually nothing? This is the same guy that has to have somebody
print his e-mails, so that he can read them, and write replys via US
Mail. In an article last week, he says that he is technologically
behind. Damn liberals.
Jeff

[Jay Honeck]

Ouch. Where to begin?

> The Cedar Rapids airport is easily within 20 minutes of the Iowa City
> airport.

This is nonsense. I drive it all the time, and I can't make it in 20
minutes, door to door. At least not legally. It's more like 30.

> Small runways for charter planes (athletics)

Well, come see the place on "football Saturdays" this fall. You won't
believe some of the mini-airliners that get in here!

Also, when they close RWY 18/36 in the next year or three, Rwy 07 is slated
to be shortened on the east, and Rwy 25 is to be extended to the west.
They're also supposed to get an ILS approach at that time. (Ha! I'm not
holding my breath...)

> Development around the airport- some see an accident into the
> Wal-Mart/Menards just waiting to happen. Some recent crashes into
> the hill to the north keep this argument going (BTW, I know that
> there were reasons for the crashes)

Worse, they're now building a 500 unit apartment complex on that very same
hill. That's a bunch of trouble brewing, for the airport and many other
reasons. (Traffic will be a bitch, for sure, with an extra 500 folks in
such a tiny area.)

> Approach/departure over the city Approach/Depature over Kinnick
Stadium
> Waste of good land- Why in the world do you need three crossing
> runways?

See the note above about closing 18/36. There won't be anyone departing
over the city after that closes. :(

> Proximity to Cedar Rapids- Cedar Rapids- only about 15-20 min. away

Now we're down to 15 minutes? Dang, Jeff, what are you driving nowadays? :)

> Services at Cedar Rapids- Tower, security, ILS approaches, crossing
> large runways, pleny of room for more GA hangars, snow removal,
> police, fire, general maintenance, good hangars

The horrible thing about Cedar Rapids is the security and commercial
activity. Iowa City has the finest GA airport in the nation -- or at least
it's the best I've seen in almost ten years of buzzing around the country.
Every fly-in guest at the inn comments on it, almost without exception.

> Duplication- To the layperson (in fact even to me) it seems to be
> close enough to each other that one would do. Iowa city would
> not only have no expenses, but Cedar Rapids could become
> stronger

Actually, it would make a lot more sense to close the Cedar Rapids tower (a
true waste of the taxpayer's dollar) and transfer the commercial flights
back to Iowa City, from whence they came. But that won't happen either...

> Liberals- Iowa City is chuck pack full of liberals that really
> don't care about folks rich enough to be able to fly.

Boy, that's for sure. And, as under-employed university folks, they've got
all day to stew about it over a cup of mocha...

> Medical flights- Most are by copter- doesn't matter

Actually, most transplant organs arrive in fixed wing aircraft. Speed is
life, and copters often just won't do.

> Transplant stuff- 20 minutes to CID no big deal. thats the reason
> for the igloo's

They measure the success of those transplants based on the "age" of the
donor organ. 20 minutes (more like 30-35) is forever when you're getting a
lung from Michigan...

> FBO's- choice of two in Cedar Rapids (Although you probably would
> not count PS Air)

I always liked the guys at PS Air -- they just don't know anything about
running a business. And they sure stiffed Iowa City when they packed up and
fled in the middle of the night. All of our current problems flow all the
way back to those *******s insisting on that stupidly huge hangar.

> Dollars- Lots of commercial operations to pay the way. Virtually
> none in Iowa City.

The City Council and Mayor of Iowa City have stood firmly against the evils
of "development" for the past 40 years (or so I've been told). They wanted
Iowa City to remain a bucolic, pretty little University town, and enacted
dozens of laws that essentially drove all new business away. (Coralridge
Mall -- the largest in the state -- was supposed to be built in Iowa City.
After hearing all the environmental crap they would be required to do, the
developers walked over to Coralville, and built it the way they wanted it
built.)

Now that Coralville and North Liberty are literally eating Iowa City's
lunch, they seem to be changing their tune. Let's hope it's not too late.

> Lack of potential growth- I do not believe that any two of the
> three
> runways could ever be expanded.

See the note about RWY 25, above. The land has been purchased, and all they
need is the go ahead. (Which may never come, of course.)

> Opportunity costs- Current use vs. the tax base of developement.
> The newer hangar could have other uses if developed around. Money in
> rather than money out looks good. The deal about streets doesn't
> hold much water because virtually everybody uses the streets.

Brian Sponcil (an occasional contributor to this group) did some digging
into the Iowa City annual budget, and discovered that we spent as much last
year on "cemetery beautification" as we did on the airport.

That's CEMETERY BEAUTIFICATION, Jeff! I think it's obvious that we can
afford to keep the airport open -- the issue is just a huge smoke-screen put
up by the local politicians, so that they look like they're "doing
something" about the budget deficit. And the liberals in town are glad to
fan the class warfare flames.

> Cedar Rapids Airport Commision- I think that they squashed the
> Marion
> Airport expansion a couple of years ago. It is my opinion that
> they
> will get in your shorts also (I am golfing with one of the
> commission
> members this week. I will pick his brain)

??? I don't know anything about this. Can you expand on this a bit -- it
must've been before we moved here in '97?

> Plenty of land around the Cedar Rapids Airport- Enough room for a
> re-located aviation themed hotel

True -- but there's little reason to visit Cedar Rapids. (Sorry!)

> It is certainly not that I would like to see it closed, they just have
> plenty of reasons to close it. I personally feel that it is just a
> matter of time.

Well, that's probably true of all but a dozen or so airports in the country.
I just hope that the inevitable happens long after I've flown my final
flight.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[jeff]

> Ouch. Where to begin?

It is not that I totally disagree with you, but, we do need to realize
that there is a pretty good argument towards not having an Iowa City
airport. Heres the "Devils Advocate" in me.
>
> > The Cedar Rapids airport is easily within 20 minutes of the Iowa City
> > airport.
>
> This is nonsense. I drive it all the time, and I can't make it in 20
> minutes, door to door. At least not legally. It's more like 30.

Ahhhh, you must be the guy slowing me down!!!
>
> > Small runways for charter planes (athletics)
>
> Well, come see the place on "football Saturdays" this fall. You won't
> believe some of the mini-airliners that get in here!

Been there, done that! Do the citizens of the city want to afford that
luxury to the "high rollers"? What about the other 355 days of the
year. They could all fly into Cedar Rapids.

>
> Also, when they close RWY 18/36 in the next year or three, Rwy 07 is slated
> to be shortened on the east, and Rwy 25 is to be extended to the west.
> They're also supposed to get an ILS approach at that time.

If the trucks show up in the middle of the night to "start"
construction, get worried.

(Ha! I'm not
> holding my breath...)

Don't hold your breath to long, or there may be more than just a truck
called the purple grape!

>
> > Development around the airport- some see an accident into the
> > Wal-Mart/Menards just waiting to happen. Some recent crashes into
> > the hill to the north keep this argument going (BTW, I know that
> > there were reasons for the crashes)
>
> Worse, they're now building a 500 unit apartment complex on that very same
> hill. That's a bunch of trouble brewing, for the airport and many other
> reasons. (Traffic will be a bitch, for sure, with an extra 500 folks in
> such a tiny area.)

Yea, I know. It's a bitch that they build and then complain. Having
said that, the tax base of those 500 units will more than make up for
what the rich folks drop to come in for football. Just think about the
potential tax base sitting there on the field. It is a pretty good
argument. Wait till a guy runs out of gas ans screws himself into one!

>
> > Approach/departure over the city Approach/Depature over Kinnick
> Stadium
> > Waste of good land- Why in the world do you need three crossing
> > runways?
>
> See the note above about closing 18/36. There won't be anyone departing
> over the city after that closes. :(

That may be the only thing that saves the airport. One more
knucklehead crashing anywhere close to the population will shut it
down.
>
> > Proximity to Cedar Rapids- Cedar Rapids- only about 15-20 min. away
>
> Now we're down to 15 minutes? Dang, Jeff, what are you driving nowadays? :)

A Ford Excursion, stay the hell out of my way! Just kidding. i will
look at the clock a little closer next time I drive it and report
back. The two airports had viability when we relied only on the old 2
lane 218 to get us to Iowa City. That was probably an hour drive
airport to airport back then. With 380 built in the late 70's, it
effectively brought the cities closer together.
>
> > Services at Cedar Rapids- Tower, security, ILS approaches, crossing
> > large runways, pleny of room for more GA hangars, snow removal,
> > police, fire, general maintenance, good hangars
>
> The horrible thing about Cedar Rapids is the security and commercial
> activity. Iowa City has the finest GA airport in the nation -- or at least
> it's the best I've seen in almost ten years of buzzing around the country.
> Every fly-in guest at the inn comments on it, almost without exception.

What is horrible about the security. I hangar there and have NEVER had
a problem at all. In fact, I do not have to worry as much about my
plane/belongings. Don't argue the security thing with non-flyers, or
they will close you down for sure. I am not sure what it is worth to
the citizens of Iowa City, or, the citizens of Iowa that you have the
finest GA airport. I agree with you, but it is not important for me to
subsidize it with my dollars.
>
> > Duplication- To the layperson (in fact even to me) it seems to be
> > close enough to each other that one would do. Iowa city would
> > not only have no expenses, but Cedar Rapids could become
> > stronger
>
> Actually, it would make a lot more sense to close the Cedar Rapids tower (a
> true waste of the taxpayer's dollar) and transfer the commercial flights
> back to Iowa City, from whence they came. But that won't happen either...

Wow, now that would be unsafe!!! Do you really think that IOW have the
infrastructure to handle the commercials along with UPS, Fed EX, and
others. Do you believe that there is any way that Rockwell Collins
(headquartered in Cedar Rapids) would move to Iowa City. There in NO
WAY that IOW comes even close. I will say that the non-GA folks would
go for a tower over saving Iowa City. Keep in mind...nobody really
cares about GA except for the sliver of the population that flies
these little things.
>
> > Liberals- Iowa City is chuck pack full of liberals that really
> > don't care about folks rich enough to be able to fly.
>
> Boy, that's for sure. And, as under-employed university folks, they've got
> all day to stew about it over a cup of mocha...

Keep'em down there!!!
>
> > Medical flights- Most are by copter- doesn't matter
>
> Actually, most transplant organs arrive in fixed wing aircraft. Speed is
> life, and copters often just won't do.

Ah, I said medical flights. Transplants could come into CID.
>
> > Transplant stuff- 20 minutes to CID no big deal. thats the reason
> > for the igloo's
>
> They measure the success of those transplants based on the "age" of the
> donor organ. 20 minutes (more like 30-35) is forever when you're getting a
> lung from Michigan...

A copter waiting at Cedar Rapids could cut it even more. May be
quicker/safer than the drive from the airport. Could land at the
hospital helipad. Would certainly be less expensive to the folks in
Iowa City by changing the airport into tax base.

>
> > FBO's- choice of two in Cedar Rapids (Although you probably would
> > not count PS Air)
>
> I always liked the guys at PS Air -- they just don't know anything about
> running a business. And they sure stiffed Iowa City when they packed up and
> fled in the middle of the night. All of our current problems flow all the
> way back to those *******s insisting on that stupidly huge hangar.

Wasn't there also a guy that was going to have a charter operation
that put up $1,000,000 worth of United Airlines stock, for the bank to
figure out later that he had altered it, and he only had $10,000 worth
(nowadays worthless)? I don't think that it was all PS Air.

>
> > Dollars- Lots of commercial operations to pay the way. Virtually
> > none in Iowa City.
>
> The City Council and Mayor of Iowa City have stood firmly against the evils
> of "development" for the past 40 years (or so I've been told). They wanted
> Iowa City to remain a bucolic, pretty little University town, and enacted
> dozens of laws that essentially drove all new business away. (Coralridge
> Mall -- the largest in the state -- was supposed to be built in Iowa City.
> After hearing all the environmental crap they would be required to do, the
> developers walked over to Coralville, and built it the way they wanted it
> built.)
>
> Now that Coralville and North Liberty are literally eating Iowa City's
> lunch, they seem to be changing their tune. Let's hope it's not too late.

It very well may be too late. Urbana to Cedar Rapids to Coralville to
Iowa city will be the corridor. Iowa City sits on the end of the line,
and they think way different than most of us Iowa folks.

>
> > Lack of potential growth- I do not believe that any two of the
> > three
> > runways could ever be expanded.
>
> See the note about RWY 25, above. The land has been purchased, and all they
> need is the go ahead. (Which may never come, of course.)

That is one runway, you need to have a viable crosswind to be a viable
commercial airport so I am told. My bet is that it does not happen.
>
> > Opportunity costs- Current use vs. the tax base of developement.
> > The newer hangar could have other uses if developed around. Money in
> > rather than money out looks good. The deal about streets doesn't
> > hold much water because virtually everybody uses the streets.
>
> Brian Sponcil (an occasional contributor to this group) did some digging
> into the Iowa City annual budget, and discovered that we spent as much last
> year on "cemetery beautification" as we did on the airport.
>
> That's CEMETERY BEAUTIFICATION, Jeff! I think it's obvious that we can
> afford to keep the airport open -- the issue is just a huge smoke-screen put
> up by the local politicians, so that they look like they're "doing
> something" about the budget deficit. And the liberals in town are glad to
> fan the class warfare flames.

Stick with that argument and they will not only close the airport, but
also you will begin to have ugly cemeteries!!! My point is that you
cannot argue the fact that the potential tax base sitting there could
bring to the citizens of Iowa City lower property taxes, and a nicer
enviroment for everybody, except the few that fly. Very small %.
>
> > Cedar Rapids Airport Commision- I think that they squashed the
> > Marion
> > Airport expansion a couple of years ago. It is my opinion that
> > they
> > will get in your shorts also (I am golfing with one of the
> > commission
> > members this week. I will pick his brain)
>
> ??? I don't know anything about this. Can you expand on this a bit -- it
> must've been before we moved here in '97?

A few years ago, Marion wanted to expand 18/36, and add a crosswind
runway. The word that I got was that the Cedar Rapids Airport
Commission had enough clout to effectively shut it down. They did not
want marion to take any "operations", the number that federal dollars
are determined by. Expanding IOW would very well do the same thing. I
don't know if you noticed or not, but the Cedar Rapids Municiple
Airport (as known by the FAA), is now going by the name of The Eastern
Iowa Airport. They really expect for this airport to service alot of
eastern iowa. CID is just completing the finsh stages of the 13/31
runway expansion project. We now have two real runways for real planes
(as seen in the eyes of the public). For typical Joe, there would be
no comparison between CID and IOW. Jon Ochenfels may know more of the
details.
>
> > Plenty of land around the Cedar Rapids Airport- Enough room for a
> > re-located aviation themed hotel
>
> True -- but there's little reason to visit Cedar Rapids. (Sorry!)

Ouch, c'mon now. The reason in the future to come to Cedar Rapids may
be to LAND your plane!!! :)
>
> > It is certainly not that I would like to see it closed, they just have
> > plenty of reasons to close it. I personally feel that it is just a
> > matter of time.
>
> Well, that's probably true of all but a dozen or so airports in the country.
> I just hope that the inevitable happens long after I've flown my final
> flight.

I agree, and it is not that I personally believe that it should be
closed. In reality, though, there is a pretty strong argument to do
so. In a time where budgets must be cut, it may be an easy place to do
just that. Iowa City has the foresight of a nightcrawler at times.

I would guess that 95% of Iowa City residents really don't care if the
airport closes, as they do not use it. I would guess that many of
those would rather see a U of I expansion, or something else to bring
jobs utilizing the same dirt.

A psycology teacher that I had at one time made us argue the
counterpoint of anything that we felt strongly for/against. It really
made me see the other side and come up with better arguments to
support my case. I think that it may be time to figure out those
arguments.

Later,
Jeff

[G.R. Patterson III]

jeff wrote:
>
> That is one runway, you need to have a viable crosswind to be a viable
> commercial airport so I am told. My bet is that it does not happen.

I wouldn't be too sure about that. Hartsfield (ATL) has four runways, all
lined up the same way (though you could probably set my Maule down sideways
on one of them). Knoxville (TYS) has two, both running the same direction.
Maybe it's a requirement in the midwest.

> A psycology teacher that I had at one time made us argue the
> counterpoint of anything that we felt strongly for/against. It really
> made me see the other side and come up with better arguments to
> support my case. I think that it may be time to figure out those
> arguments.

Good teacher.

George Patterson
The optimist feels that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The
pessimist is afraid that he's correct.
James Branch Cavel

[jeff]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message >...
> jeff wrote:
> >
> > That is one runway, you need to have a viable crosswind to be a viable
> > commercial airport so I am told. My bet is that it does not happen.
>
> I wouldn't be too sure about that. Hartsfield (ATL) has four runways, all
> lined up the same way (though you could probably set my Maule down sideways
> on one of them). Knoxville (TYS) has two, both running the same direction.
> Maybe it's a requirement in the midwest.

I could also very well be wrong, although, even if so, I would think
that any commercial operator would rather have the opportunity for a
crosss wind runway. I would think that this would help them as far as
scheduling and costly delays when it gets really windy. I do not
believe that there would be any doubt that Cedar Rapids would be the
airport of choice for any of the commercial airlines. On top of that,
the airports are only about 5 or 10 minutes away from each
other............gotcha Jay (actually about 20).

It could possibly be that one central airport could be much stronger
than two, seperately run airports, IMO.
>
> > A psycology teacher that I had at one time made us argue the
> > counterpoint of anything that we felt strongly for/against. It really
> > made me see the other side and come up with better arguments to
> > support my case. I think that it may be time to figure out those
> > arguments.
>
> Good teacher.
>
> George Patterson
> The optimist feels that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The
> pessimist is afraid that he's correct.
> James Branch Cavel

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> You are probably right. But I'm hard-pressed to name another similar-sized
> university-town anywhere in the country that does NOT have a municipal
> airport. Can you think of any?

New Brunswick, NJ, for one. Rutgers is there. Princeton also has no
municipal airport, though there is a privately owned one there. The
citizenry would love to get rid of that one, too.

George Patterson
The optimist feels that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The
pessimist is afraid that he's correct.
James Branch Cavel

[Don Tuite]

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 19:44:32 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>You are probably right. But I'm hard-pressed to name another similar-sized
>university-town anywhere in the country that does NOT have a municipal
>airport. Can you think of any?

A few in California. Here's the situation at the State University
campi:

The little airport at UC Davis is owned by the U. It's been under
some pressure recently, but there are other small strips nearby
UC Santa Cruz: closest public airport is Watsonville -- not so close.
UC Berkeley: Oakland
UCLA: Santa Monica and Van Nuys
UC Riverside: Riverside
UC Santa Barbara: Santa Barbara is adjacent to campus
UC Irvine: John Wayne
UC San Diego: Lindbergh, but I don't think it's particularly
GA-friendly. GA airports are out a ways.
UC Merced: When it opens next year will have not only Merced, but
ex-Castle airbase (A****er) with its enormous runways.

California State University has 23 campi. The only one I'm not sure
about having a convenient GA airport is San Marcos, because I've
mislaid my LA sectional.

Don

[Ron Natalie]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message ...

> New Brunswick, NJ, for one. Rutgers is there. Princeton also has no
> municipal airport, though there is a privately owned one there. The
> citizenry would love to get rid of that one, too.
>
And the while it is called "Princeton" it isn't really that close to Princeton
(nor is the Princeton Junction NE Corridor station).

College Park (MD) has an airport, but you can't fly there.

[jeff]

> > A psycology teacher that I had at one time made us argue the
> > counterpoint of anything that we felt strongly for/against. It really
> > made me see the other side and come up with better arguments to
> > support my case. I think that it may be time to figure out those
> > arguments.
>
> He was an excellent teacher. However, for the time-being I'd appreciate it
> if you would use these same logical skills and argue as vociferously on MY
> side of this argument! :)

I will be there fighting, if need be. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to
see it stay. I guess that my point is that if we cannot come up with
any better arguments that what we have discussed, it will be lights
out. It would be REALLY benefitial, as another poster stated, if a
local, or incoming business would use the airport more. As I
understand it, without PS Air, even the charters are very limited.

I do have a friend that USED to manage the Wal-Mart down there. He
said that they would regularly "pop in" down there as they were flying
around. Don't know haw many ops they do, but that would be a better
argument than the cemetary thing.

IT may be, if iowa City would pull it's head out of their ass's, the
new convention center slated to be in Coralville could help your
cause. If you do not become pro-active though, as a city, all of this
traffic will go to Cedar Rapids because of the issues that I earlier
discussed.

I'll let you know what I find out from one of the CR Airport
comissioners next time I see him.

Later (have fun at the party),
Jeff

[Jay Honeck]

> local, or incoming business would use the airport more. As I
> understand it, without PS Air, even the charters are very limited.

Actually, by my uneducated guess (I only know what I can see on the ramp),
it seems that Jet Air has generated MORE charter business. But that's
really hard for me to gauge.

> IT may be, if iowa City would pull it's head out of their ass's, the
> new convention center slated to be in Coralville could help your
> cause.

Augh! Don't even get me started on THAT boondoggle. I can't believe that
Coralville is following Iowa City's absurd lead by using taxpayer money to
fund another hotel in the area!

Dammit, if there was a real need for another hotel in the area, doncha think
that Sheraton/Holiday/Ramada/Embassy/Super/Motel 6 would be standing in line
to build it?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[jeff]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:<W%RTa.135228$ye4.95557@sccrnsc01>...
> > local, or incoming business would use the airport more. As I
> > understand it, without PS Air, even the charters are very limited.
>
> Actually, by my uneducated guess (I only know what I can see on the ramp),
> it seems that Jet Air has generated MORE charter business. But that's
> really hard for me to gauge.

The only reason that it may seem that way is that it is about the only
traffic there now (besides a little GA stuff.
>
> > IT may be, if iowa City would pull it's head out of their ass's, the
> > new convention center slated to be in Coralville could help your
> > cause.
>
> Augh! Don't even get me started on THAT boondoggle. I can't believe that
> Coralville is following Iowa City's absurd lead by using taxpayer money to
> fund another hotel in the area!

Actually, it is not really the hotel that is the main item behind the
funding, but the attached convention facility. The hotel is clinging
onto the shirt tail of the convention center. I do not think that they
will have any aviation suites :)
>
> Dammit, if there was a real need for another hotel in the area, doncha think
> that Sheraton/Holiday/Ramada/Embassy/Super/Motel 6 would be standing in line
> to build it?

I still think that, as a government, they owe it to the taxpayers to
look at the return on investment. This return can come in many forms,
not always by the dollar. The challenge is that I do not believe that
IOW, along with a ton of others its size (sitting on pricy land), can
justify its ROI. As a taxpayer that pays a TON of tax, I would like to
see better use of the money myself. Which, in your mind, would be
better....run IOW in the red, or, close it, increase the tax base, and
turn it black and add a bunch of jobs? Hell, we have State Troopers
that at times have to double up in thier cars just because the funds
are not there for fuel. Go figure.

I fly, I like airports, and I like you, but, I would like to keep more
of MY money in MY pocket (some posters talk about Fed money like it is
not actually ours)

Jeff