Re: Ever Seen a "Lifter" fly?

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> .... which you can enjoy between sips of your favorite adult beverage!

Really? I thought all you stocked was beer?

George Patterson
The optimist feels that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The
pessimist is afraid that he's correct.
James Branch Cavel

[Jay Honeck]

> Really? I thought all you stocked was beer?

Well, I was assuming we were all manly low-wing types here.

If you want to sip something OTHER than beer, George, I have no
objections... ;)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dan Thomas]

Popular Mechanics or one of those mags had an article on a similar
machine back in the 1960s. It flew, too, but couldn't lift anything
more than itself, not even the power supply. I think the enormous
voltage required to make it work harder would just end up making a big
light show.

Dan

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 17:36:59 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote in Message-Id:
<%YWQa.72001$H17.21246@sccrnsc02>:

[Blatant advertisement snipped]

>If you don't wish to go to the bother, danger and expense of building one, ...


You can see it fly here (video):
http://jlnlabs.imars.com/lifters/videos/3stlft10g.rm

http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/main.htm

[Jay Honeck]

> [Blatant advertisement snipped]

It's only an "advertisement" if I'm selling something, Larry.

The beer -- and the lifter demo -- is free to all who attend! :)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> [Blatant advertisement snipped]

It's only an "advertisement" if I'm selling something, Larry.

The beer -- and the lifter demo -- is free to all who attend! :)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

Okay, so why is this appearing three times on my newsreader?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:DhdRa.78805$Ph3.8186@sccrnsc04...
> > [Blatant advertisement snipped]
>
> It's only an "advertisement" if I'm selling something, Larry.
>
> The beer -- and the lifter demo -- is free to all who attend! :)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Randy Wentzel]

> Okay, so why is this appearing three times on my newsreader?
> --
> Jay Honeck

It's showing up in my news client also (Outlook Express 6)

--
Randy

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:34:31 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote in Message-Id:
<XndRa.78418$N7.9309@sccrnsc03>:

>> [Blatant advertisement snipped]
>
>It's only an "advertisement" if I'm selling something, Larry.
>
>The beer -- and the lifter demo -- is free to all who attend! :)

It wasn't my intent to get you sputterin' and stutterin' (you posted
three identical follow-up replies), Jay. It was my intent to provide
an information resource to anyone who was interested in the lifter
phenomenon, as that was the subject of the thread.

Now you've caused it to degenerate into a display of your lack of
command of the English language:


ad•ver•tise \"ad-ver-'tiz\ verb ad•ver•tised ad•ver•tis•ing
[ME, fr. MF advertiss-, stem of advertir] (15c)
verb transitive
1 : to make something known to : notify
2 a : to make publicly and generally known <advertising their
readiness to make concessions>
b : to announce publicly esp. by a printed notice or a
broadcast
c : to call public attention to esp. by emphasizing
desirable qualities so as to arouse a desire to buy or
patronize:
PROMOTE
verb intransitive
: to issue or sponsor advertising <advertise for a secretary>
ad•ver•tis•er noun

Merriam-Webster, Incorporated


advertise verb
1 syn DECLARE 1, announce, annunciate, blazon, broadcast, bruit
(about), proclaim, promulgate, publish, sound
rel recount, relate, report; communicate, impart; ballyhoo,
promote, propagandize, publicize
con conceal, repress, suppress; bury, hide, obscure
2 syn PUBLICIZE, build up, cry, hype, press-agent, puff
3 syn PROMOTE 3, boost, plug, push

Merriam-Webster, Incorporated


As you will readily note from the above definitions of the word
'advertise,' it's use is far from being restricted to the act of
'selling' as you defensively asserted (three times).

Sorry I hit a nerve there ol' buddy, but your defensiveness seems to
betray the true intent of your free offer: advertisement.


More lifter information here:
http://l2.espacenet.com/espacenet/viewer?PN=US2949550&CY=ch&LG=en&DB=EPD
http://l2.espacenet.com/espacenet/bnsviewer?CY=ch&LG=fr&DB=EPD&PN=US2949550&ID=US+++2949550A1+I+

[Dave Jacobowitz]

This explains how these lifters fly:

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biefeld-Brown_effect

No antigrav here, sorry to say.

-- dave jacobowitz
-- jacobowitz73 -at- yahoo.com
-- PP-ASEL and EE

[Larry Dighera]

On 16 Jul 2003 13:38:07 -0700, (Dave
Jacobowitz) wrote in Message-Id:
>:

>This explains how these lifters fly:
>
>http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biefeld-Brown_effect
>
>No antigrav here, sorry to say.
>

The link you posted above regarding ionic wind fails to account for
the effect observed in a vacuum:

http://jlnlabs.imars.com/lifters/liftvacuum/index.htm
vacuum: according to this analysis there is no resultant force
upon the lifter in perfect vacuum resulting from the asymmetrical
electric forces, or it is negligible compared to the value in the
mN range measured in high vacuum of 1.333e-3 Pa by William B.
Stein at Purdue University.

(Mr. Stein has measured at least 0.31 mN with 0.12 m long
lifter at 17 kV. According to T. Townsend Brown’s letter from
February 14, 1973 the thrust in vacuum is linear with the
voltage. Since we have used 2.3 times higher voltage and 5
times longer lifter, we would expect a force of at least
2.3*5*0.31 mN = 3.65 mN. Even the higher value of F2 in the
second column is an order of magnitude smaller than what is
expected, based on measurements and it can not explain the
measured phenomena.)

Mr. Stein has proved in his paper “Electrokinetic Propulsion: The
Ionic Wind Argument” that the ionic wind effect can not explain
the phenomena in high vacuum. Since neither the electric forces of
the asymmetrical E-field can provide a magnitude of force that
could explain the measured thrust in vacuum, this analysis
confirms the theory that at high E-field intensities in vacuum an
unknown electro-gravity force is responsible for the measured
thrust.

In the presence of air: most of the thrust is provided by the
electric forces between the dense space charge around the corona
wire (causing a virtual increase of the wire diameter) and the
cylindrical edge of the plate facing the wire. This causes the ion
drift process described by Evgenij Barsoukov. Although the basic
principles in his theory are correct, the quantitative analysis
was based on unrealistic assumptions and the derived formula is
not valid (it is not in conformity with the measurement results).
Even if we could find a good approximate formula for this thrust
based on ion drift process, it still assumes the validity of
Newton’s 3rd law; that means this force would be ineffective if
the lifter would be fixed within a completely sealed box.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Here's another interesting device that should interest an EE:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/sclxmtr.htm

In contrast to the common Hertzian transverse vector waves, scalar
waves travel, or rather materialize at the receiving end, at
superluminal velocities. Scalar waves also quite effectively
penetrate trough objects, such as a Faraday Shield, which would
stop an ordinary electromagnetic (Hertzian type) wave.


At least the EE who showed it to me was convinced that it was a viable
starting point for an underwater communications device. He should
know, that's his business.



Disclaimer:

I have no affiliation with any of this stuff or the web sites.
It all looks like crackpot "science" to me, but I'm no expert.

[Aviv Hod]

No, this isn't anti-gravity, but the link doesn't tell the full story. It's
a good chunk of it, but not all of it. No one has come up with a
comprehensive, predictive model of what's going on. Back of the envelope
calculations that I've done with some EE friends and even checked with a
physics professor don't account for all of the force, so the mechanism must
be a bit more complicated than what we put in our model. As soon as I
finish with my thesis (MSEE in medical image processing) and graduate, I'll
be moving to Boston where I'll join a friend who just got funding for a
$10,000 3.5kW high voltage power supply that we plan to use to refine our
models.

I am cautious but very optimistic that this phenomenon will find uses that
include flying on one scale or another. It's just a matter of miniturizing
the power supplies enough, and I've been working on some ideas that I think
could work. It's very exciting, but not magic.

-Aviv

"Dave Jacobowitz" > wrote in message
om...
> This explains how these lifters fly:
>
> http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biefeld-Brown_effect
>
> No antigrav here, sorry to say.
>
> -- dave jacobowitz
> -- jacobowitz73 -at- yahoo.com
> -- PP-ASEL and EE

[Wdtabor]

>
>The link you posted above regarding ionic wind fails to account for
>the effect observed in a vacuum:
>

Ah, a Bussard Ram Jet!

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Randy Walton]

It's not ion wind. It's related to what's known as a momentum shift related
to the right hand rule of force. The force is generated in a vacuum as
well.

"Aviv Hod" > wrote in message
...
> No, this isn't anti-gravity, but the link doesn't tell the full story.
It's
> a good chunk of it, but not all of it. No one has come up with a
> comprehensive, predictive model of what's going on. Back of the envelope
> calculations that I've done with some EE friends and even checked with a
> physics professor don't account for all of the force, so the mechanism
must
> be a bit more complicated than what we put in our model. As soon as I
> finish with my thesis (MSEE in medical image processing) and graduate,
I'll
> be moving to Boston where I'll join a friend who just got funding for a
> $10,000 3.5kW high voltage power supply that we plan to use to refine our
> models.
>
> I am cautious but very optimistic that this phenomenon will find uses that
> include flying on one scale or another. It's just a matter of
miniturizing
> the power supplies enough, and I've been working on some ideas that I
think
> could work. It's very exciting, but not magic.
>
> -Aviv
>
> "Dave Jacobowitz" > wrote in message
> om...
> > This explains how these lifters fly:
> >
> > http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biefeld-Brown_effect
> >
> > No antigrav here, sorry to say.
> >
> > -- dave jacobowitz
> > -- jacobowitz73 -at- yahoo.com
> > -- PP-ASEL and EE
>
>

[Don Tuite]

Can somebody spare me a lot of clicking and tell me what efficiencies
have been measured?

Don

[Big John]

In this mornings paper Microsoft just issued a warning that a Polish
computer group found a major security fault. All should check the
Microsoft site to see if it applies to 'your' system and if so, down
load the fix.

Big John


On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 12:31:24 -0000, (Dylan
Smith) wrote:

>On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:12:37 GMT, Jay Honeck > wrote:
>>Okay, so why is this appearing three times on my newsreader?
>
>There is a bug in Outlook Express. It thinks it had an error sending
>the article, and tried to resend it (twice, until it thought it was
>successful). However, there wasn't an error at all.

[journeyman]

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 12:01:21 -0500, Big John > wrote:
>In this mornings paper Microsoft just issued a warning that a Polish
>computer group found a major security fault. All should check the
>Microsoft site to see if it applies to 'your' system and if so, down
>load the fix.

Some kind soul out there keeps emailing me a patch for Windows that
fixes all security holes and all known bugs...


Morris (*cough*)

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Big John > said:
>In this mornings paper Microsoft just issued a warning that a Polish
>computer group found a major security fault. All should check the
>Microsoft site to see if it applies to 'your' system and if so, down
>load the fix.

Service Pack 9 from RedHat fixes them all.


--
Paul Tomblin >, not speaking for anybody
Unix is an operating system, OS/2 is half an operating system, Windows
is a shell, and DOS is a boot partition virus.
-- Peter H. Coffin

[Todd Pattist]

Larry Dighera > wrote:

>The link you posted above regarding ionic wind fails to account for
>the effect observed in a vacuum:

There's a fairly comprehensive site on lifter theory
summarizing experimental results here:

http://sudy_zhenja.tripod.com/lifter_theory/main.html

They claim:

" There is no experimental results in deep vacuum. ... All
experiments in low vacuum made in this group showed no
thrust (due to plasma formation between electrodes) as
expected. "

Extremely low forces can be produced by:
1) electron emission from heated cathode
2) interaction of accelerated electrons with walls of the
chamber
3) thrust by electromagnetic radiation.

The first two work only in small chambers. The last
produces real but unusably low force. Most contrary results
showing lifter force in a vacuum are alleged to be
unreproduceable or the result of poor vacuum.

Todd Pattist
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)
___
Make a commitment to learn something from every flight.
Share what you learn.

[Big John]

Morris

Think that one is a virus????

You can go to MS and look without getting into trouble.


Big John

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:57:55 -0000,
(journeyman) wrote:

>On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 12:01:21 -0500, Big John > wrote:
>>In this mornings paper Microsoft just issued a warning that a Polish
>>computer group found a major security fault. All should check the
>>Microsoft site to see if it applies to 'your' system and if so, down
>>load the fix.
>
>Some kind soul out there keeps emailing me a patch for Windows that
>fixes all security holes and all known bugs...
>
>
>Morris (*cough*)

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, (journeyman) said:
>On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 18:22:13 +0000 (UTC), Paul Tomblin
> wrote:
>>Service Pack 9 from RedHat fixes them all.
>
>Actually, I'm a little disappointed with RH9. It seems to be missing
>stuff.

I'm still on 7.3 both at home and at work, but at work they're "upgrading"
us all to 9. I've got a replacement computer sitting on my desk (going
from a 1.8GHz P4 to a 3GHz Xeon) but I haven't had time to set it up in
the last month. Besides, 1.8Ghz is fast enough for anybody. Any faster
and I won't be able to play Bejeweled during my compiles.

--
Paul Tomblin >, not speaking for anybody
"Whoah, whoah! A fat sarcastic Star Trek fan? You must be a devil with the
ladies!" - Simpsons

[Neal]

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 20:50:54 -0000,
(journeyman) wrote:

>On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 18:22:13 +0000 (UTC), Paul Tomblin
> wrote:
>>>Microsoft site to see if it applies to 'your' system and if so, down
>>>load the fix.
>>
>>Service Pack 9 from RedHat fixes them all.
>
>Actually, I'm a little disappointed with RH9. It seems to be missing
>stuff.
>

Try SuSE 8.2. I've been running it since the end of May and I am
extremely pleased with it. Very refined and robust distro.

BTW, FYI, Slackware is 10 years old today :-)
That was my first exposure to Linux back in fall of '93 when me and
co-workers downloaded the floppy image files from a BBS over a 2400
baud modem. Those were the days!

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Neal > said:
>BTW, FYI, Slackware is 10 years old today :-)
>That was my first exposure to Linux back in fall of '93 when me and
>co-workers downloaded the floppy image files from a BBS over a 2400
>baud modem. Those were the days!

I installed SLS 1.03 (with kernel 0.99.14plg) on about 10 386 and 486
machines in my lab back in 1992. From dozens of floppies. You'd march
the floppies around the lab, starting with disk 1 in machine 1, then
moving it onto machine 2 while machine 1 dealt with disk 1, and so on.

Loads of fun.

Upgrading to Slackware 1.0 was a treat, if only because it came on CD and
had an "install via NFS" option - you could stick the CD on your
SPARCStation and export it, then install all 10 machines at a time.

--
Paul Tomblin >, not speaking for anybody
God is real, unless declared as an integer.

[Dylan Smith]

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 20:47:46 -0000, journeyman
> wrote:
>On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 14:50:33 -0500, Big John
>worry about it (FWIW, it's not a virus, it's a Trojan Horse, which
>is a horse of a different color, which by lemma 1 doesn't exist).

Sure it's not a horse with an infinite number of legs?

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 12:46:07 -0700, Peter Duniho >
wrote:
>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>> Service Pack 9 from RedHat fixes them all.
>
>But introduces a whole slew of new security flaws. So what?

You can fix those with a CD-ROM labeled "OpenBSD Installation Disk"

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 18:41:19 -0500, Neal > wrote:
>BTW, FYI, Slackware is 10 years old today :-)

I remember the first Slackware, after getting rid of SLS :-)

But the real days were Linux 0.12, when the distro was a root floppy
and using 'cp -r' to copy the contents to your hard disk :-) That
was January 1992. I was a very geeky teenager at the time...

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[journeyman]

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 08:18:51 -0000, Dylan Smith
> wrote:
>>is a horse of a different color, which by lemma 1 doesn't exist).
>
>Sure it's not a horse with an infinite number of legs?

Lemma 1 is very useful on its own. :-)

Lemma 1. All horses are the same color. Proof by induction.
One horse is the same color. Assume n horses are the same
color to prove n+1 horses are the same color. Take one horse
out of the set of n+1. You have n horses of the same color by
induction hypothesis. Do this n+1 times to obtain n+1 sets,
all the same color. Therefore, n+1 horses are the same color.

Theorem 1. Horses have an infinite number of legs. Proof by
intimidation. Horses have an even number of legs. They have
their 2 hind legs in back, and their forelegs in front. Which
makes 6 legs, which is certainly an odd number of legs for a
horse. The only number that is both even and odd is infinity.
Furthermore, assume there exists a horse with a finite number
of legs. Well, that is a horse of a different color, which
by lemma 1 doesn't exist. QED


We now resume our regularly scheduled discussion of aviation.


Morris (what you get when you cross an elephant with a mountain climber?)

[journeyman]

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 18:41:19 -0500, Neal > wrote:

>BTW, FYI, Slackware is 10 years old today :-)
>That was my first exposure to Linux back in fall of '93 when me and
>co-workers downloaded the floppy image files from a BBS over a 2400
>baud modem. Those were the days!

I installed my first slackware, must've been '94 or '95 on a Toshiba
486 laptop. 25 MHz, 4 MB RAM, 350 MB hard disk. Not enough power to
run XWindows, but a buddy who had a similar configuration sure tried.

Downloaded it to the university where I was working and wrote all 50
floppy disks.


ObAvition: does anyone have a good flight simulator for Linux? I'm
looking for something I can practice instrument approach procedures...


Morris (feeling like an oldtimer)

[journeyman]

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 08:21:21 -0000, Dylan Smith
> wrote:

>was January 1992. I was a very geeky teenager at the time...

No longer a teenager, but still pretty geeky ;-)


Morris

[Dylan Smith]

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:04:33 -0000, journeyman <journeyman@grizzly.
compilerguru.com> wrote:
>I installed my first slackware, must've been '94 or '95 on a Toshiba
>486 laptop. 25 MHz, 4 MB RAM, 350 MB hard disk. Not enough power to
>run XWindows, but a buddy who had a similar configuration sure tried.

I got a 16MHz 386 with 2.5MB of RAM to run X.

It swapped a lot.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Neal]

On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 22:38:04 -0000, (Dylan
Smith) wrote:

>On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:04:33 -0000, journeyman <journeyman@grizzly.
>compilerguru.com> wrote:
>>I installed my first slackware, must've been '94 or '95 on a Toshiba
>>486 laptop. 25 MHz, 4 MB RAM, 350 MB hard disk. Not enough power to
>>run XWindows, but a buddy who had a similar configuration sure tried.
>
>I got a 16MHz 386 with 2.5MB of RAM to run X.
>
>It swapped a lot.

My first box I ever got XFree86 to run upon, was a 386SX-25 with 4MB
of RAM. To say "It swapped a lot" is a great understatement. :-D
I even had it doing a PPP dialup connection over a 14.4K baud modem
while X was running multiple telnet xterm sessions back to my ISP's
HP9000 . It kept repeating over and over "I think I can, I think I
can".... but amazingly, it could!