Looking for practice area outside HPN

[journeyman]

I've lately come to the conclusion that the airspace around NYC is
just too (expletive) busy. Last night, I wound up tucked inside
the triangle formed by Bridgeporrt, Danbury, and Waterbury-Oxford,
carefully watching the GPS to make sure I didn't drift into anyone's
class D while practicing maneuvers.

Last time, I went north of Westchester County, but that on the
approach path when there's a South flow. Much further North is
Stewart's approach path.

Can't go west or south to the yellow parts of the chart. Don't want
to be maneuvering over water. Don't want to be in anyone's airpace,
rather not be too near a Victor airway, hat to be on someone's approach
path, ...

Are the any nice quiet, out-of-the-way spots for me to practice lazy
8s, chandelles, steep turns and stalls that doesn't involve doing an
(explitive) cross country (not that I object to cross-country time,
but my training budget is limited).

I'm really beginning to think about renting from Danbury and training
North of Putnam Lake. Big problem with that is it's too far to drive
to after work, so it limits training time to my already limited
weekends.


Morris (yes, an on-topic post)

[Gary L. Drescher]

"journeyman" > wrote in message
u.com...
>
> I've lately come to the conclusion that the airspace around NYC is
> just too (expletive) busy. Last night, I wound up tucked inside
> the triangle formed by Bridgeporrt, Danbury, and Waterbury-Oxford,
> carefully watching the GPS to make sure I didn't drift into anyone's
> class D while practicing maneuvers.

Is that a legal place to practice maneuvers? It's crisscrossed by airways.
According to FAR 91.303, you can't be within 4 nm of an airway centerline
when you intentionally establish an attitude "not necessary for normal
flight".

--Gary

[Roy Smith]

(journeyman) wrote:
> I've lately come to the conclusion that the airspace around NYC is
> just too (expletive) busy. Last night, I wound up tucked inside
> the triangle formed by Bridgeporrt, Danbury, and Waterbury-Oxford,
> carefully watching the GPS to make sure I didn't drift into anyone's
> class D while practicing maneuvers.

All class D requires you to do is be in radio contact with the tower. I
often use I-684 north of HPN for practicing lazy-8's, and the IBM
facility in Somers (the cluster of white buildings with pyramidal roofs
just SW of DXR's airspace) is just tailor made for 8's on pylons (use a
pyramid for one pylon, and there's a highway overpass on I-684 that's
just about right for the other). I don't sweat keeping track of exactly
where DXR's airspace is; I just call up and say, "Danbury tower, Arrow
3875T will be maneuvering approximately 5 southwest, at or below 2000".
Without exception, the controller just says something to the effect of,
"roger, report leaving my airspace".

As for tucking yourself between Danbury and Waterbury, make sure you
check the notams! There's an acro box that's often hot in that area
(it's defined by a radial/dme off Carmel). Also, make sure you read the
chart carefully -- just north of Bridgeport's Class D is Sikorsky's
Class D. It's hard to find on the chart, and many people don't even
realize it exists.

> Last time, I went north of Westchester County, but that on the
> approach path when there's a South flow. Much further North is
> Stewart's approach path.

I often do maneuvers west of I-685 and east of the river.
Alternatively, on the other side of the river, staying north of the
Class B boundary, and west towards Greenwood Lake.

For landing practice, I use any of Greenwood Lake, Danbury, Dutchess,
Sky Acres, or Bridgeport. Or, it it's not busy, I just stay in the
pattern at HPN.

A typical checkout flight with a new club member will take us west out
of HPN. I'll have them do slow flight just as we cross the river, and
then a stall series and some steep turns. I'll do the navigating, and
keep us on a generally west heading, working our way over towards
Greenwood Lake. Then we'll do pattern work there. A little further
west, over the ridgeline, there's some great flat areas (farmland) for
ground-ref maneuvers and engine-out drills. Then I'll generally put
them under the hood for a little instrument work on the way back.

[journeyman]

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 22:51:15 GMT, Gary L. Drescher > wrote:
>"journeyman" > wrote in message
u.com...
>>
>> I've lately come to the conclusion that the airspace around NYC is
>> just too (expletive) busy. Last night, I wound up tucked inside
>> the triangle formed by Bridgeporrt, Danbury, and Waterbury-Oxford,
>> carefully watching the GPS to make sure I didn't drift into anyone's
>> class D while practicing maneuvers.
>
>Is that a legal place to practice maneuvers? It's crisscrossed by airways.
>According to FAR 91.303, you can't be within 4 nm of an airway centerline
>when you intentionally establish an attitude "not necessary for normal
>flight".

Ack. All the more reason I need a better place to practice maneuvers.
Guess I'd better file another NASA report.

Seriously, I was using the other definition: banking over 60 degrees
or pitching +/- 30 degrees, which I now realize is in error. Looking
at the text of 91.303, there was nothing abrupt about the maneuvers, so
I hope I'm off the hook in case anyone wants to make an issue of it.

The chief flight instructor at The Place I Rent From steered me in the
direction of Norwalk. That isn't any better.

Someone else suggested Croton Point, which is also too close to airways.

For that matter, The Place I'm Doing Glider Training is at Randall
airport and that's practically underneath an intersection. Wurtsboro
isn't any better either.

I really hope no-one's too keen on enforcing this rule.

Maybe just north of Mahopac?


Morris (adding "filed ASRS report" to my shutdown checklist)

[Seth]

Try practicing across the river in Orange County. Lots of farm land,
etc. Just south and west of SWF and MGJ. And not too far from
HPN.....

Seth

(journeyman) wrote in message >...
> I've lately come to the conclusion that the airspace around NYC is
> just too (expletive) busy. Last night, I wound up tucked inside
> the triangle formed by Bridgeporrt, Danbury, and Waterbury-Oxford,
> carefully watching the GPS to make sure I didn't drift into anyone's
> class D while practicing maneuvers.
>
> Last time, I went north of Westchester County, but that on the
> approach path when there's a South flow. Much further North is
> Stewart's approach path.
>
> Can't go west or south to the yellow parts of the chart. Don't want
> to be maneuvering over water. Don't want to be in anyone's airpace,
> rather not be too near a Victor airway, hat to be on someone's approach
> path, ...
>
> Are the any nice quiet, out-of-the-way spots for me to practice lazy
> 8s, chandelles, steep turns and stalls that doesn't involve doing an
> (explitive) cross country (not that I object to cross-country time,
> but my training budget is limited).
>
> I'm really beginning to think about renting from Danbury and training
> North of Putnam Lake. Big problem with that is it's too far to drive
> to after work, so it limits training time to my already limited
> weekends.
>
>
> Morris (yes, an on-topic post)

[Peter H. Schmidt]

IANAL, but I think any manuever required to pass a certificate could
defensibly be called "necessary for normal flight" so practicing
chandelles etc. (required for Commercial) would be OK by 91.303. Can
anyone (CFIs?) confirm or deny this?

Regards -- Peter
--
Peter H. Schmidt Lifting Mind Inc.
_/ Speaking \_ 2 Ewell Avenue
www.liftingmind.com \ for myself / Lexington, MA 02421
fax: 781 863-8858 tel: 781 863-5200

[Roy Smith]

"Peter H. Schmidt" > wrote:
> IANAL, but I think any manuever required to pass a certificate could
> defensibly be called "necessary for normal flight" so practicing
> chandelles etc. (required for Commercial) would be OK by 91.303. Can
> anyone (CFIs?) confirm or deny this?

Spins are required for the CFI-Airplane rating. Maybe also on the
PP-Glider test? I doubt anybody would consider a spin "necessary for
normal flight".

On the other hand, the airspace around here (New York) is so
chock-a-block full of airways, if practicing stalls or chandelles in an
airway is a FAR violation, I would imagine we've got a lot of violating
going on every day in this neck of the woods.

[Andrew Gideon]

Roy Smith wrote:

> Alternatively, on the other side of the river, staying north of the
> Class B boundary, and west towards Greenwood Lake.

Hey! That's our (CDW) practice area. We call the flat area "the onion
fields", although I've no idea what actually grows there. It's nice for
all sorts of reasons, not the least of which is that 132.75 is typically
unbusy enough to lend us an extra eye.

- Andrew