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JFLEISC
July 21st 03, 11:32 PM
OK, Here is a question for some of you FAR legal experts out there. I can't
seem to find anything definitive on it. If an uncontrolled airport is open to
those based there but notamed 'closed to transients' do the runways have to be
"X"ed?
If not what about a passer-by who didn't intend it to be part of his flight
plan but decides to land, say for a drink of water etc., or just to rest up?
Does he have to radio an FSS to check if everything looks good on a fly by?
What if he has no radio? Has a violation been committed?

Jim

Ron Natalie
July 21st 03, 11:45 PM
"JFLEISC" > wrote in message ...
> OK, Here is a question for some of you FAR legal experts out there. I can't
> seem to find anything definitive on it. If an uncontrolled airport is open to
> those based there but notamed 'closed to transients' do the runways have to be
> "X"ed?

No of course not.

> If not what about a passer-by who didn't intend it to be part of his flight
> plan but decides to land, say for a drink of water etc., or just to rest up?
> Does he have to radio an FSS to check if everything looks good on a fly by?
> What if he has no radio? Has a violation been committed?

By and large it's not the FAA who knows or cares if airports are closed to
certain operations. It's the person who owns/runs the airport that does.
It's not a FAR violation (unless there was some safety issue like there
were people working on the runway, etc...) to land at a closed airport.

John Galban
July 22nd 03, 04:30 PM
"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message >...
> > Does he have to radio an FSS to check if everything looks good on a fly by?
> > What if he has no radio? Has a violation been committed?
>
> By and large it's not the FAA who knows or cares if airports are closed to
> certain operations. It's the person who owns/runs the airport that does.
> It's not a FAR violation (unless there was some safety issue like there
> were people working on the runway, etc...) to land at a closed airport.

Well, technically it is a violation. If the FAA choses to be picky
about it, they can ding you for not having obtained all of the
information for your flight (which includes NOTAMs).

I know a pilot that landed at an airport that was temporarily
NOTAMed closed. He had to take a ride with an inspector (709???).

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

Ron Natalie
July 22nd 03, 04:55 PM
"John Galban" > wrote in message om...

> Well, technically it is a violation. If the FAA choses to be picky
> about it, they can ding you for not having obtained all of the
> information for your flight (which includes NOTAMs).

Not all closures are NOTAM'd.
Just because a field is NOTAM'd or otherwise marked as closed makes
it illegal by the FAR's to land there.

> I know a pilot that landed at an airport that was temporarily
> NOTAMed closed. He had to take a ride with an inspector (709???).

What was the nature of the closure? What was the issue? Unless the landing
was unsafe or there was some specific FAA activity (TFR), it's not against the
FARs to land at closed airports. It's certainly not against the FARs to invoke
the ire of airport operators by breaking their self-imposed rules.

---

My favorite enforcement actions along these lines was the guy about a decade ago
who got the NOTAM that CGS was closed until 4PM. At 4:01 the guy heads out
and departs narrowly missing hitting the guy picking up the big X off the end of the
runway.

The moral is: No matter what the NOTAM says, the airport ain't open until the guy
removing the X gets off the runway.

Jay Masino
July 22nd 03, 06:08 PM
Ron Natalie > wrote:
> My favorite enforcement actions along these lines was the guy about a decade ago
> who got the NOTAM that CGS was closed until 4PM. At 4:01 the guy heads out
> and departs narrowly missing hitting the guy picking up the big X off the end of the
> runway.
> The moral is: No matter what the NOTAM says, the airport ain't open until the guy
> removing the X gets off the runway.

That wasn't quite the correct story... I was practically at CGS
constantantly during that time (although, I wasn't there that day). The
time period was approximately when they were building the raised Metro
tracks at the departure end of 33. The person who took off supposedly
made the Metro construction workers "dive out of the way". I don't think
it had anything to do with the "X". If I remember right, there was
testimony to that effect during the enforcement hearing.

In addition, since CGS has a rule against departures after 10PM, and
before 7AM, there were always the occasional story of someone sneaking
out at 10:05, or 6:55. That's a local rule, made to smooth over the
relationship with the surrounding communities, and (of course) doesn't
involve any "X" on the runways. I don't think there are any enforcement
actions taken against those people.

-- Jay
__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino/ ! ! !

Checkout http://www.oc-adolfos.com/
for the best Italian food in Ocean City, MD and...
Checkout http://www.brolow.com/ for authentic Blues music on Delmarva

Ron Natalie
July 23rd 03, 08:49 PM
"John Galban" > wrote in message om...

> Obviously, my friend had not obtained NOTAMs, because he landed at an
> airport that was NOTAMed closed.
>
So what if he knew the airport was closed (complied with the regulations)
and decided to go shoot touch and goes there anyhow?

John Galban
July 24th 03, 12:19 AM
Dana M. Hague <d(dash)m(dash)hague(at)comcast(dot)net> wrote in message >...
> On 22 Jul 2003 08:30:07 -0700, (John Galban)
> wrote:
>
> A "friendly" FAA type greeted us and took
> our licenses. We sweated through the show (her mother more than me as
> obviously her job was on the line), but after the show he gave us our
> licenses back, chewed us out, and sent us on our way. Somehow I doubt
> it'd go that way today....

The FAA type is not allowed to take your license (certificate for
you sticklers). He is allowed to inspect it, period. I would never
allow an FAA person to take my cert. If they keep it, they could
easily say you surrendered it, thereby making their job a lot easier.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

Newps
July 24th 03, 12:55 AM
John Galban wrote:
> Dana M. Hague <d(dash)m(dash)hague(at)comcast(dot)net> wrote in message >...
>
>>On 22 Jul 2003 08:30:07 -0700, (John Galban)
>>wrote:
>>
>>A "friendly" FAA type greeted us and took
>>our licenses. We sweated through the show (her mother more than me as
>>obviously her job was on the line), but after the show he gave us our
>>licenses back, chewed us out, and sent us on our way. Somehow I doubt
>>it'd go that way today....
>
>
> The FAA type is not allowed to take your license (certificate for
> you sticklers). He is allowed to inspect it, period. I would never
> allow an FAA person to take my cert. If they keep it, they could
> easily say you surrendered it, thereby making their job a lot easier.

And even if he did take it then go fly anyways. Right in front of him.
It is such a huge no no for a FSDO inspector to confiscate a
certificate that my local FSDO inspector doesn't believe it would ever
happen. He told me that if any FSDO inspector took your license just go
fly anyways. Make a big deal about it. He said the end result will be
a phone call from the local FSDO manager apologizing profusely.

Newps
July 24th 03, 12:56 AM
Ron Natalie wrote:

> "John Galban" > wrote in message om...
>
>>. If they keep it, they could
>>easily say you surrendered it, thereby making their job a lot easier.
>>
>
> You can no longer (and haven't been able to in a long time) surrender your
> pilot certificate without making a written declaration to that effect.
>
> However, if some bonehead inspector takes it, you're kind of screwed anyhow
> until you can get someone in authority to correct his stupidity.

No, you're not.

John Galban
July 24th 03, 02:57 AM
"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message >...
> "John Galban" > wrote in message om...
>
> > Obviously, my friend had not obtained NOTAMs, because he landed at an
> > airport that was NOTAMed closed.
> >
> So what if he knew the airport was closed (complied with the regulations)
> and decided to go shoot touch and goes there anyhow?

Then I imagine he would have got off scott-free. But the fact
remains that he did not know the airport was closed and the FAA knew
that because there was no record of an FSS or DUATS briefing.

I understand what you're getting at and have agreed with the fact
that it's not illegal to land at an airport that has been NOTAMed
closed. My point was more along the lines of what happens if you land
at a closed airport that you didn't know was closed by NOTAM. The
absence of X's doesn't mean you're out of the woods.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

Teacherjh
July 24th 03, 05:05 AM
>>
You can no longer (and haven't been able to in a long time) surrender your
pilot certificate without making a written declaration to that effect.

However, if some bonehead inspector takes it, you're kind of screwed anyhow
<<

All they have to take nowadays is your drivers license... or "government issued
photo ID".

Jose

(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Peter Duniho
July 24th 03, 05:43 AM
"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
> All they have to take nowadays is your drivers license... or "government
issued
> photo ID".

By what authority would they do that? Seems to me, the bogus scenario of
the inspector taking your certficate (which is easily replaced anyway) is
much more likely.

Peter Duniho
July 24th 03, 07:26 AM
"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
> By the same authority they use to "take" your certificate.

In other words, none. Why'd you let them take it then? If an FAA inspector
tried to take MY driver's license, I would try to take it back by force, and
if that didn't work, I'd have the local police arrest the guy.

> As for "easily replaced", that doesn't help when you are on a cross
country.
> You're just stuck.

Oh, come on. Even if you're not willing to fly without your certificate in
hand, surely you don't expect me to believe you can't get a replacement
faxed to you just because you're on a cross-country flight? I think it's
safe to say, if there's an FAA inspector around, a fax machine can't be far
away.

Pete

Dennis O'Connor
July 24th 03, 02:35 PM
Open letter to those who don't know how to handle a fed bozo:
Look, your mother taught you not to talk to strangers <or she should have>,
didn't she? Wassa matter, you too dense to remember? When some bozo
flashes his crappy ID, you ignore it and him... You don't answer... You
don't maintain eye contact. You don't stop and talk to him <absolutely not
one word to indicate he even exists>... If he has played a game by
pretending to be another pilot and strikes up a conversation about your
plane and then suddenly flashes an ID, simply shut your mouth and walk away
at that point... Not one more word directed to him...

You keep on doing whatever it is you are doing <in my case drinking coffee
usually>, keep walking, keep tieing the plane down, keep loading/unloading
your luggage, etc... No matter what he says, ignore him... You do NOT
answer, not even with a yes or no when he says, "Did you just land in this
airplane?"... You look through him as though he is invisible... He has NO
police powers - none / nada / zippo... He cannot arrest you, he cannot
"take" your airmans certificate or your drivers license, he cannot detain
you, he cannot MAKE you do anything... He simply cannot touch you...He is
just another person in a public area and he has no authority to interfere
with your movements... The only thing he can do is send you a registered
letter detailing the documents he needs to examine and offering to set a
mutually agreeable time and place... Your atttorney knows how to handle
that...

If he were some street bum who wandered in wearing three layers of old
clothes, with a bottle of Mad Dog 20/20 sticking out of his pocket, would
you hand him your certificate? Well, when some bozo flashes an id and
claims to be the right hand of ghod, just mentally picture that id as being
the bottle of Mad Dog 20/20 and you will know how to handle him......

Denny

John Galban
July 24th 03, 09:02 PM
(Teacherjh) wrote in message >...
> >>
> you'll see that he was nabbed for violating the
> FAR that says you must obtain all availiable info concerning your
> flight (don't have the FAR in front of me). That is interpreted to
> mean you need to know about weather, runway lengths, NOTAMs, etc...
> <<
>
> What if you decide, while you're in the air, to land at an attractive field
> (which turns out to be closed by the NOTAM you didn't think to ask for because
> you weren't going to land there originally)?

Good question. Usually when I receive NOTAMs for a flight, they
also include the ones for airports in the general vicinity of my
route.

Technically, I don't think your scenario would relieve you of the
responsibility of obtaining all available information. If I planned
and got NOTAMs for a flight from PHX to LAX and decide to go to San
Diego in mid-flight, I expect the FAA would still expect me to obtain
the info relevent to my new destination.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)
>
> Jose
>
> (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

John Galban
July 24th 03, 09:13 PM
"Dennis O'Connor" > wrote in message >...
> He simply cannot touch you...He is
> just another person in a public area and he has no authority to interfere
> with your movements... The only thing he can do is send you a registered
> letter detailing the documents he needs to examine and offering to set a
> mutually agreeable time and place... Your atttorney knows how to handle
> that...

According to the regs, you are required to present your certificate
when asked by an FAA rep or law enforcement officer. They do have the
authority to ask for them. You are correct that the FAA guy does not
have the authority to arrest or impede your movements, but if you
don't comply, you've just bought yourself a violation. That's
probably what the registered letter will detail. In the case of
documents that you are not required to carry (like logbooks) the FAA
can send you a letter to arrange for inspection.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

Ron Natalie
July 24th 03, 09:20 PM
"John Galban" > wrote in message om...

>
> Good question. Usually when I receive NOTAMs for a flight, they
> also include the ones for airports in the general vicinity of my
> route.

You're lucky. I find that I rarely even get pertinant notams for my destination even
when I specifically ask for them. The NOTAM system is one of the most screwed
up pieces of (non) automation in the FAA.

John Galban
July 24th 03, 09:21 PM
Newps > wrote in message >...
> John Galban wrote:
> >
> > The FAA type is not allowed to take your license (certificate for
> > you sticklers). He is allowed to inspect it, period. I would never
> > allow an FAA person to take my cert. If they keep it, they could
> > easily say you surrendered it, thereby making their job a lot easier.
>
> And even if he did take it then go fly anyways. Right in front of him.
> It is such a huge no no for a FSDO inspector to confiscate a
> certificate that my local FSDO inspector doesn't believe it would ever
> happen. He told me that if any FSDO inspector took your license just go
> fly anyways. Make a big deal about it. He said the end result will be
> a phone call from the local FSDO manager apologizing profusely.

Newps, I know that what you say sounds logical, but I'd be somewhat
reluctant to take your advice. The FAA is notorious for backing up
the actions of their FSDO inspectors, even when they are in the wrong.
From what I've seen over the years, the likely scenario would have the
FSDO inspectors actions brushed under the carpet, while you go
appealing your way to the NTSB on your violation of the reg that says
you have to have your cert. on your person. You'd probably win
eventually (assuming the "win" means you escaped the violation, but
ended up broke), but personally, I wouldn't risk it. My pockets are
not that deep.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

Newps
July 25th 03, 02:23 AM
JFLEISC wrote:


> Yes, but here is a scenerio I was thinking about; [You do get all briefings and
> take off in your no-radio classic. Along the way the weather goes bad (yea, I
> know, this could never really happen since the FAA weather briefings are so
> accurate) so you go way off course and land (for even so much as a rest) at a
> nice looking, non-Xed, notamed closed airport. It wasn't remotely in your plan.

I wouldn't worry about it unless you scare some construction worker off
the runway.

Dana M. Hague
July 25th 03, 03:09 AM
On 23 Jul 2003 16:19:36 -0700, (John Galban)
wrote:

>> A "friendly" FAA type greeted us and took
>> our licenses....
>
> The FAA type is not allowed to take your license (certificate for
>you sticklers). He is allowed to inspect it, period....

Well, it was a long time ago and my recollection is fuzzy. As
I recall it, he took our licenses to copy down the information, not
immediately in the nature of "confiscating" them. Perhaps he gave
them right back and only talked to after the show, I don't really
recall..... but as several have pointed out, not all of them play by
the rules.

-Dana
--
--
If replying by email, please make the obvious changes.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Capital punishment: people in the Capitol need to be punished...

Teacherjh
July 25th 03, 05:34 AM
>>
>surely you don't expect me to believe you can't get a replacement
>faxed to you just because you're on a cross-country flight? I think it's
>safe to say, if there's an FAA inspector around, a fax machine can't be far
>away.
<<

There you are on a cross country, you find it prudent to stop for fuel earlier
than you had planned, you pick out an airport and land there. You do have
enough gas to continue the flight at least part way, but you are gassing up
here because you've been there before and the gas is cheap. You taxi up and
are met by the airport owner and the constable.

The airport's closed by NOTAM - but you didn't get NOTAMs for this particular
unintended stop.

The constable (just like a highway traffic stop) asks to see your license, and
you hold it out to him. Just like a highway stop, he asks you to take it out
of the wallet and hand it to him, along with your official government issued
photo ID.

You say no on the highway and you're taken to jail.

You say no here and you may well be taken away for "national security" reasons.
You say yes and hand it over; they give you back your pilot license and keep
your photo ID "just for a while".

It's 8:30 pm. Friday night. July 1.

Jose


(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Peter Duniho
July 25th 03, 07:05 AM
"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
> [long yarn about a police officer arresting a pilot snipped]

What's any of that got to do with the question of surrendering your pilot
certificate to an FAA inspector?

Teacherjh
July 25th 03, 02:49 PM
>>
> [long yarn about a police officer arresting a pilot snipped]

What's any of that got to do with the question of surrendering your pilot
certificate to an FAA inspector?
<<

An FAA inspector could be there instead of the airport owner, also backed by
the constable. The taking of the photo ID is sufficient; it is unnecessary to
have to surrender your certificate nowadays to have the same effect. One
authority can always call on the other authority upon resistance (whether this
happens or not I don't know, and don't want to find out)

Jose



(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Newps
July 25th 03, 05:02 PM
Teacherjh wrote:

>>surely you don't expect me to believe you can't get a replacement
>>faxed to you just because you're on a cross-country flight? I think it's
>>safe to say, if there's an FAA inspector around, a fax machine can't be far
>>away.
>
> <<
>
> There you are on a cross country, you find it prudent to stop for fuel earlier
> than you had planned, you pick out an airport and land there. You do have
> enough gas to continue the flight at least part way, but you are gassing up
> here because you've been there before and the gas is cheap. You taxi up and
> are met by the airport owner and the constable.
>
> The airport's closed by NOTAM - but you didn't get NOTAMs for this particular
> unintended stop.
>
> The constable (just like a highway traffic stop) asks to see your license, and
> you hold it out to him. Just like a highway stop, he asks you to take it out
> of the wallet and hand it to him, along with your official government issued
> photo ID.
>
> You say no on the highway and you're taken to jail.
>
> You say no here and you may well be taken away for "national security" reasons.
> You say yes and hand it over; they give you back your pilot license and keep
> your photo ID "just for a while".
>
> It's 8:30 pm. Friday night. July 1.

So what, you wouldn't fly away?

Dennis O'Connor
July 25th 03, 05:12 PM
Long, long ago in a society far, far away, I would have agreed with you
John... In those days I respected the inspectors of the FAA, FCC, DEA,
etc... The world has changed... The courts have found over and over that the
existence of self serving rules does not negate the responsibility of
government employees to observe due process and constitutional
protections... Sure, they will run over you if you let them - but that is
the key, just say NO... Police will demand that you let them in your house,
but cannot step foot inside if you simply say no... Yes, they can get a
search warrant - and that is a good reminder for them to have to go hat in
hand and beg for permission...

I will not show/surrender my papers to some bozo on the ramp... For all I
know he could be an escaped mental patient who stole someone's ID... He
could be a terrorist with forged documents desperate to get his hands on an
airplane..Even the courts do their business through the mail. If it is good
enough for all levels of the courts, up to the U.S. Supreme Court, then it
is good enough for the FAA... They are just bureaucrats - no more, no
less... Send me an official letter and I will respond - otherwise, keep
your distance...

Denny

"John Galban" > wrote in message > According to the
regs, you are required to present your certificate
> when asked by an FAA rep

Tim Bengtson
July 25th 03, 05:32 PM
Dennis O'Connor wrote:

> I will not show/surrender my papers to some bozo on the ramp... For all I
> know he could be an escaped mental patient who stole someone's ID... He
> could be a terrorist with forged documents desperate to get his hands on an
> airplane..Even the courts do their business through the mail. If it is good
> enough for all levels of the courts, up to the U.S. Supreme Court, then it
> is good enough for the FAA... They are just bureaucrats - no more, no
> less... Send me an official letter and I will respond - otherwise, keep
> your distance...

Have you ever tested your resolve during a ramp check? If so, what
happened? Though I agree with the sentiment of your post, I generally
adhere to the philosophy that it's unwise to play games with someone who
is in a position to screw you up just because he feels like it. This is
especially true if the person seems to have the intelligence of a garden
tool.

Also, if you don't trust the person's ID and documents, what makes you
think he couldn't also forge a letter using an Oklahoma City PO box as
the return address?

Tim

Peter Duniho
July 25th 03, 05:49 PM
"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
> An FAA inspector could be there instead of the airport owner, also backed
by
> the constable. The taking of the photo ID is sufficient; it is
unnecessary to
> have to surrender your certificate nowadays to have the same effect.

The police officer doesn't have the authority to demand your driver's
license either. I look forward to being arrested in a situation such as you
describe. In recent years, individuals have made quite a lot of money
(typically hundreds of thousands of dollars, up to a million) as a result of
such capricious arrests.

In any case, having the police officer take your driver's license still has
nothing to do with an FAA inspector taking your pilot certificate.

IMHO, you are far too willing to let persons in positions of authority have
their way with you.

Pete

Dave Stadt
July 25th 03, 11:26 PM
"Tim Bengtson" > wrote in message
...
> Dennis O'Connor wrote:
>
> > I will not show/surrender my papers to some bozo on the ramp... For all
I
> > know he could be an escaped mental patient who stole someone's ID... He
> > could be a terrorist with forged documents desperate to get his hands on
an
> > airplane..Even the courts do their business through the mail. If it is
good
> > enough for all levels of the courts, up to the U.S. Supreme Court, then
it
> > is good enough for the FAA... They are just bureaucrats - no more, no
> > less... Send me an official letter and I will respond - otherwise, keep
> > your distance...
>
> Have you ever tested your resolve during a ramp check? If so, what
> happened? Though I agree with the sentiment of your post, I generally
> adhere to the philosophy that it's unwise to play games with someone who
> is in a position to screw you up just because he feels like it. This is
> especially true if the person seems to have the intelligence of a garden
> tool.
>
> Also, if you don't trust the person's ID and documents, what makes you
> think he couldn't also forge a letter using an Oklahoma City PO box as
> the return address?
>
> Tim

Somewhere on the EAA WEB site is a "what to do during a ramp check" article.
One of the items is to never ever let the FAA touch your certificate. The
other thing you can do is say it is time for you to depart. The FAA cannot
delay your departure. I carry a copy of the article in the plane and it is
the first thing I would grab if someone presented credentials.

Teacherjh
July 26th 03, 05:21 AM
>>
The police officer doesn't have the authority to demand your driver's
license either....IMHO, you are far too willing to let persons in positions of
authority have
their way with you.
<<

So, you're pulled over on the highway and the police officer asks for your
license and registration. What do you do?

Jose



(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Peter Duniho
July 26th 03, 07:54 AM
"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
> So, you're pulled over on the highway and the police officer asks for your
> license and registration. What do you do?

I hand it to him. I fail to see the relevance. In one case, an official is
trying to extend their authority beyond that granted him. In the other, an
official is simply doing their job, exercising authority granted him.

But even the police officer does not have the authority to keep your
driver's license, not even at a traffic stop never mind at an airport.

Pete

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