uh oh, Plane flies over Bush motorcade

[Mutts]

from drudge report...........

Low flying single engine plane flies directly over President Bushes motorcade
in Philadelphia, before being intercepted and grounded by police. Security
breach occurred at 12:07 p.m. on Interstate 95 heading south toward
Philadelphia. Bush had just finished a visit to the Financial Management
Service Facility, which mails out tax rebate checks. Flying from right to left
the white plane flew over the Presidents motorcade just north of exit 26, with
a police chopper hot on it’s tail. Breach occurred just weeks after stow away
boarded Bush press plane in Africa... Developing...

[Gene Seibel]

Drudge Report http://www.drudgereport.com/
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.


"Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
y.com...
> Can't find a record of this account... where did you find it??
>
> --
> --
> Good Flights!
>
> Cecil E. Chapman, Jr.
> PP-ASEL
>
> "We who fly do so for the love of flying.
> We are alive in the air with this miracle
> that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
>
> - Cecil Day Lewis-
>
> My personal adventures as a student pilot
> and after my PPL: www.bayareapilot.com
> "Mutts" > wrote in message
> ...
> > from drudge report...........
> >
> > Low flying single engine plane flies directly over President
Bushes
> motorcade
> > in Philadelphia, before being intercepted and grounded by police.
Security
> > breach occurred at 12:07 p.m. on Interstate 95 heading south
toward
> > Philadelphia. Bush had just finished a visit to the Financial
Management
> > Service Facility, which mails out tax rebate checks. Flying from
right to
> left
> > the white plane flew over the Presidents motorcade just north of
exit 26,
> with
> > a police chopper hot on it's tail. Breach occurred just weeks
after stow
> away
> > boarded Bush press plane in Africa... Developing...
> >
>
>
>

[Mutts]

from reuters.........

Pilot Detained After Veering Near Bush Motorcade
Thu July 24, 2003 04:17 PM ET
PHILADELPHIA (Reuters) - A man piloting a small plane that veered too close to
President Bush's motorcade on Thursday was detained by federal agents after
F-16 fighters and a police helicopter forced him to land, officials said.

The pilot, who was patrolling oil pipelines in a single-engine Cessna at
altitudes too low to be sighted by radar, entered a 30-mile no-fly zone and
flew along Bush's motorcade route as the president was traveling from a
speaking event in Philadelphia, officials said.

The pilot was identified only as an employee of Underwood Aerial Patrol of
Ohio.

"He was unaware that there was a temporary flight restriction in effect. There
was no threat. There was no malice," said James Borasi, special agent in charge
of the U.S. Secret Service's Philadelphia field office.

The incident, which occurred shortly after noon EDT, triggered a scramble of
F-16 fighters, which forced the pilot down at Camden County Airport in Berlin,
New Jersey, with help from a police helicopter, airport officials said.

About 30 police officers, with their guns drawn, waited as the Cessna taxied to
a stop and then ordered the pilot to lie down on the tarmac.

"They handcuffed him and whisked him out of here," said Karl Kleinberg, the
airport's owner.

Four hours after the incident, the pilot was still being detained as a suburban
New Jersey police station.

[Ron Natalie]

"Mutts" > wrote in message ...

>
> "He was unaware that there was a temporary flight restriction in effect. There
> was no threat. There was no malice," said James Borasi, special agent in charge
> of the U.S. Secret Service's Philadelphia field office.

Of course, the only malice is going to be on the part of the secret service. I bet
they still persue the violation against him. A guy from Potomac Center says they
are spending a lot of time on violation paperwork even on stupid things (like pilots
being rolled over to 1200 from their discrete codes a mile too soon before they're
out of the ADIZ).

[Maule Driver]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message news:3f20429b$0$39652>
> Of course, the only malice is going to be on the part of the secret
service. I bet
> they still persue the violation against him. A guy from Potomac Center
says they
> are spending a lot of time on violation paperwork even on stupid things
(like pilots
> being rolled over to 1200 from their discrete codes a mile too soon before
they're
> out of the ADIZ).
>
I hope the pilot has his humble hat screwed on tight. A run-in with a
Secret Service operation will remind you what life in Iraq must have been
like. Just shut-up, avert your eyes, and say thank you, may I have another
sir.

I'm just glad to hear it wasn't some solo student out boring holes in the
practice area. That would have been a very traumatic flight.

[Tim Bengtson]

> "He was unaware that there was a temporary flight restriction in effect. There
> was no threat. There was no malice," said James Borasi, special agent in charge
> of the U.S. Secret Service's Philadelphia field office.

But I'll bet dollars to donuts that won't stop the FAA from at least
suspending his pilot's certifcate for a while...

Tim

[Ron Natalie]

"Tim Bengtson" > wrote in message ...
> > "He was unaware that there was a temporary flight restriction in effect. There
> > was no threat. There was no malice," said James Borasi, special agent in charge
> > of the U.S. Secret Service's Philadelphia field office.
>
> But I'll bet dollars to donuts that won't stop the FAA from at least
> suspending his pilot's certifcate for a while...
>
It is my understanding that the FAA isn't even given any discretion
in this. TFR violators will be executed. The FAA just pushes
the paperwork for those really in control of this government.

[Cecil E. Chapman]

(CNN) -- A pilot forced to land because he had entered closed airspace was
unaware of the temporary restrictions imposed because President Bush was in
the area, according to initial inquiries, the Secret Service said.

The Cessna 172 was intercepted over the route that the president's motorcade
was to follow to Philadelphia, and the pilot, whose name was not released,
was ordered to land at Camden County Airport.

A Secret Service spokeswoman said the plane was flying low and erratically.

She added the president was never in danger and that the initial conclusion
was that the pilot did not know about the temporary airspace restrictions.

The Secret Service said initial interviews indicated that the pilot, the
only person in the single-engine plane, was on contract to inspect
above-ground oil pipelines for possible damage, which required him to fly
low.

Karl Kleinberg, owner and operator of the Camden County Airport, said local
and federal officials -- including police, the FBI, and Secret Service --
converged on the airport in about a dozen vehicles, approached the pilot
with guns drawn, ordered him to the ground, handcuffed him and took him
away.

But even as it was happening, Kleinberg said, he felt it was of no
significance.

"The problem is, every time the president moves someplace to make a speech,
they give you last-minute instructions and a lot of times pilots don't get
the word."

Kleinberg said it was safe to assume the pilot "was not aware of the
restriction."

-- CNN Senior White House Correspondent John King and Producer Shannon
Troetel contributed to this story.


--
--
Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman, Jr.
PP-ASEL

"We who fly do so for the love of flying.
We are alive in the air with this miracle
that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"

- Cecil Day Lewis-

My personal adventures as a student pilot
and after my PPL: www.bayareapilot.com
"Mutts" > wrote in message
...
> from drudge report...........
>
> Low flying single engine plane flies directly over President Bushes
motorcade
> in Philadelphia, before being intercepted and grounded by police. Security
> breach occurred at 12:07 p.m. on Interstate 95 heading south toward
> Philadelphia. Bush had just finished a visit to the Financial Management
> Service Facility, which mails out tax rebate checks. Flying from right to
left
> the white plane flew over the Presidents motorcade just north of exit 26,
with
> a police chopper hot on it's tail. Breach occurred just weeks after stow
away
> boarded Bush press plane in Africa... Developing...
>

[H. Adam Stevens]

pipeline patrol
atc contact





morons







"Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
m...
> (CNN) -- A pilot forced to land because he had entered closed airspace was
> unaware of the temporary restrictions imposed because President Bush was
in
> the area, according to initial inquiries, the Secret Service said.
>
> The Cessna 172 was intercepted over the route that the president's
motorcade
> was to follow to Philadelphia, and the pilot, whose name was not released,
> was ordered to land at Camden County Airport.
>
> A Secret Service spokeswoman said the plane was flying low and
erratically.
>
> She added the president was never in danger and that the initial
conclusion
> was that the pilot did not know about the temporary airspace restrictions.
>
> The Secret Service said initial interviews indicated that the pilot, the
> only person in the single-engine plane, was on contract to inspect
> above-ground oil pipelines for possible damage, which required him to fly
> low.
>
> Karl Kleinberg, owner and operator of the Camden County Airport, said
local
> and federal officials -- including police, the FBI, and Secret Service --
> converged on the airport in about a dozen vehicles, approached the pilot
> with guns drawn, ordered him to the ground, handcuffed him and took him
> away.
>
> But even as it was happening, Kleinberg said, he felt it was of no
> significance.
>
> "The problem is, every time the president moves someplace to make a
speech,
> they give you last-minute instructions and a lot of times pilots don't get
> the word."
>
> Kleinberg said it was safe to assume the pilot "was not aware of the
> restriction."
>
> -- CNN Senior White House Correspondent John King and Producer Shannon
> Troetel contributed to this story.
>
>
> --
> --
> Good Flights!
>
> Cecil E. Chapman, Jr.
> PP-ASEL
>
> "We who fly do so for the love of flying.
> We are alive in the air with this miracle
> that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
>
> - Cecil Day Lewis-
>
> My personal adventures as a student pilot
> and after my PPL: www.bayareapilot.com
> "Mutts" > wrote in message
> ...
> > from drudge report...........
> >
> > Low flying single engine plane flies directly over President Bushes
> motorcade
> > in Philadelphia, before being intercepted and grounded by police.
Security
> > breach occurred at 12:07 p.m. on Interstate 95 heading south toward
> > Philadelphia. Bush had just finished a visit to the Financial Management
> > Service Facility, which mails out tax rebate checks. Flying from right
to
> left
> > the white plane flew over the Presidents motorcade just north of exit
26,
> with
> > a police chopper hot on it's tail. Breach occurred just weeks after stow
> away
> > boarded Bush press plane in Africa... Developing...
> >
>
>
>

[Peter Gottlieb]

"Maule Driver" > wrote in message
.com...
> >
> I hope the pilot has his humble hat screwed on tight. A run-in with a
> Secret Service operation will remind you what life in Iraq must have been
> like. Just shut-up, avert your eyes, and say thank you, may I have
another
> sir.

Have you ever had experience being questioned by the Secret Service or are
you just guessing?

My experience has been that they are very determined, very professional,
very polite, and very determined.

[Cub Driver]

>> I hope the pilot has his humble hat screwed on tight. A run-in with a
>> Secret Service operation will remind you what life in Iraq must have been
>> like. Just shut-up, avert your eyes, and say thank you, may I have another
>> sir.
>
>Yes. It is happening in the land of the free, the brave and the keeper
>of freedom in the whole world.

What's happening? Torture, starvation, summary execution up against
the prison wall, burial in a mass grave?

I guess I wouldn't know about that. My only sources of information are
the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

[David Megginson]

Cub Driver > writes:

> What's happening? Torture, starvation, summary execution up against
> the prison wall, burial in a mass grave?
>
> I guess I wouldn't know about that. My only sources of information
> are the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times.

Nope, but your government has approved secret military tribunals and
the suspension of Habeas Corpus and normal rules of evidence for any
foreigner or American they consider a terrorist suspect. That's a
little scary, since in theory, a pilot who busts anything could be
held indefinitely and tried secretly, without access to a lawyer or a
civilian court of law or even the ability to call home and say they're
alright. Hopefully, no one will abuse that power, but it's not a
power most free countries give to their military or law enforcement in
the first place.


All the best,


David

--
David Megginson, , http://www.megginson.com/

[Drew Hamilton]

In article >, Mutts > wrote:
>The FAA has given pilots barely 12 hours' notice in each city. "Because they
>were issued so late, flight service stations would not have known to warn
>pilots who did their flight planning at the end of the business day on
>Wednesday about the restrictions," said AOPA Vice President of Regulatory
>Affairs Melissa Bailey. "That's just not acceptable."

On the other hand, it's also not acceptable how many pilots don't even
make use of information that is *easily*, *readily* available to them.

Two weekends ago, the Molson Indy was in Toronto and there was a
temporary restriction on flying within 1 nautical mile of the race,
from ground to 5000 feet (mostly because that area was already so full
of blimps and helicopter rides and banner tow flights and whatever).

Anyway, in addition to being in the NOTAMs for the area, it was on
the ATIS for Toronto City Centre Airport (whose control zone the
restriction was in). And for the hour or so that I was out flying,
time and again I'd hear the following conversation:

C-GABC: City Tower, this is GABC with information Lima, inbound
for some sightseeing over the city at 2000 feet.
Tower: ABC, how do you intend to avoid the restricted airspace
at your 12:00?
C-GABC: ...I wasn't aware of any restriction.

It wasn't just one aircraft, either. It was almost every
airplane that was coming in to the city from the surrounding
airports. And without fail, they all said that they'd listened
to the ATIS, but it was apparent that they'd only left it on
long enough to get the information version letter (either that
or they didn't understand the phrase "Pilots are advised that
the airpace within a one mile radius of the Molson Indy and from
ground to 5000 feet is restricted").

I felt bad for the poor controller -- he was working alone, tower
and ground, and having to deal with really busyt airpsace and lots
and lots of pilots who didn't bother getting any information before
their flights. By the end, he was starting to get a little bit
snippy, and to tell the truth, I can't say as I blamed him...

- awh

[Maule Driver]

3 casual contacts - none directly with the Prez though. Watched a bad one
down in the Wall Street area some years ago where they bowled over some guy
who had no idea what hit him. He reacted strongly (not physically) and they
put him down pretty hard. I was real glad it wasn't me. That's what colored
my comment. Very uninformed though.

Given their mission, I can imagine a very professional culture built around
a very serious mission. I can also imagine that "politeness" and "respect
for the general public" may or may not be part of it. Absolute power tends
to corrupt absolutely and all that. But I don't know anything for a fact.

I used to live near someone who had a semi-frequent visitor who had SS
protection. Never knew who it was. Got used to the occassional motorcade
or blocked street. The local police were used to do some of the work but
they were definitely not happy about it. I think they always felt a bit
used because they often seemed to get posted on diversionary missions and
never knew what was really happening (e.g. "go stand in this rainstorm and
block this exit from the Interstate...oh, btw, you can unblock it now, we
took her thru another route") But that's just biz as usual I guess.

"Peter Gottlieb" > wrote in message
.net...
>
> "Maule Driver" > wrote in message
> .com...
> > >
> > I hope the pilot has his humble hat screwed on tight. A run-in with a
> > Secret Service operation will remind you what life in Iraq must have
been
> > like. Just shut-up, avert your eyes, and say thank you, may I have
> another
> > sir.
>
> Have you ever had experience being questioned by the Secret Service or are
> you just guessing?
>
> My experience has been that they are very determined, very professional,
> very polite, and very determined.
>
>

[Teacherjh]

>>
> This doesn't make you think just a little bit? You are protecting the
> government and not your people.

your logic is flawed.

protecting the president doesn't necessarily mean that US people
are not being protected.
<<

The logic is not flawed, and the comment is quite insightful. It's not that
protecting the prez is antithetical to protecting the people (my own opinion
notwithstanding <g>), but that the focus of the protection is subtlely but
significantly different. It is from that focus that other actions come about.

Jose

(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Mutts]

I am so paranoid that I get two briefings, one through duats at
home
and then right after pre-flight I call the FSS with my cell
phone and talk to an actual human for the absolute freshest
info. TFRs pop up alot in southern california
with all our wildfires so it can be rather dynamic.

I hope we find out how the motorcade guy screwed up. Its
possible
I guess that he got a briefing and the FSS screwed up. If he
didnt get a briefing at all then its really his fault.


In article >, says...
>
>
>It wasn't just one aircraft, either. It was almost every
>airplane that was coming in to the city from the surrounding
>airports. And without fail, they all said that they'd
listened
>to the ATIS, but it was apparent that they'd only left it on
>long enough to get the information version letter (either that
>or they didn't understand the phrase "Pilots are advised that
>the airpace within a one mile radius of the Molson Indy and
from
>ground to 5000 feet is restricted").
>
>I felt bad for the poor controller -- he was working alone,
tower
>and ground, and having to deal with really busyt airpsace and
lots
>and lots of pilots who didn't bother getting any information
before
>their flights. By the end, he was starting to get a little
bit
>snippy, and to tell the truth, I can't say as I blamed him...
>
> - awh
>

[Roger Halstead]

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 09:20:44 +0200, Martin Hotze
> wrote:

>"Maule Driver" > wrote:
>
>> I hope the pilot has his humble hat screwed on tight. A run-in with a
>> Secret Service operation will remind you what life in Iraq must have been
>> like. Just shut-up, avert your eyes, and say thank you, may I have another
>> sir.
>
>
>Yes. It is happening in the land of the free, the brave and the keeper
>of freedom in the whole world.
>This doesn't make you think just a little bit? You are protecting the
>government and not your people.

"Used to be" the "TFR" was 3000 and 3. 3000 AGL and 3 miles either
side of the motorcade. They even gave the routes/highways to avoid
between such and such times.

>
>
>> I'm just glad to hear it wasn't some solo student out boring holes in the
>> practice area. That would have been a very traumatic flight.

Might have been better as the student could legitimately claim
ignorance. Not the licensed pilot, even if the TFR popped up *after*
he was airborne.

Now days I even get a complete briefing on bright beautiful sunshiny
days. I also listen to ATIS from the nearest airport along my flight
path that has it .

The AOPA really raised a ruckus over the short lead time for the one
in Detroit this past week.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

>
>true.
>
>#m

[Roger Halstead]

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 09:38:18 -0400, Drew Hamilton > wrote:

>In article >, Mutts > wrote:
>>The FAA has given pilots barely 12 hours' notice in each city. "Because they
>>were issued so late, flight service stations would not have known to warn
>>pilots who did their flight planning at the end of the business day on
>>Wednesday about the restrictions," said AOPA Vice President of Regulatory
>>Affairs Melissa Bailey. "That's just not acceptable."
>
>On the other hand, it's also not acceptable how many pilots don't even
>make use of information that is *easily*, *readily* available to them.
>
>Two weekends ago, the Molson Indy was in Toronto and there was a
>temporary restriction on flying within 1 nautical mile of the race,
>from ground to 5000 feet (mostly because that area was already so full
>of blimps and helicopter rides and banner tow flights and whatever).
>
>Anyway, in addition to being in the NOTAMs for the area, it was on
>the ATIS for Toronto City Centre Airport (whose control zone the
>restriction was in). And for the hour or so that I was out flying,
>time and again I'd hear the following conversation:
>
>C-GABC: City Tower, this is GABC with information Lima, inbound
> for some sightseeing over the city at 2000 feet.
>Tower: ABC, how do you intend to avoid the restricted airspace
> at your 12:00?
>C-GABC: ...I wasn't aware of any restriction.
>
>It wasn't just one aircraft, either. It was almost every
>airplane that was coming in to the city from the surrounding
>airports. And without fail, they all said that they'd listened
>to the ATIS, but it was apparent that they'd only left it on

Unless they were very familiar with the area it might not have meant
any thing to them. They (some of them) might have been planning on
asking for clarification.

I've been to Toronto a number of times, but I had no idea as to what
the Molson Indi was. Nor would I know the location from that
description except that it was some where in the city. I'm not all
that far away...over in Michigan. Transiting Ontario to New York
takes me very close to Toronto although I've not gone through there in
quite a while.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

>long enough to get the information version letter (either that
>or they didn't understand the phrase "Pilots are advised that
>the airpace within a one mile radius of the Molson Indy and from
>ground to 5000 feet is restricted").
>
>I felt bad for the poor controller -- he was working alone, tower
>and ground, and having to deal with really busyt airpsace and lots
>and lots of pilots who didn't bother getting any information before
>their flights. By the end, he was starting to get a little bit
>snippy, and to tell the truth, I can't say as I blamed him...
>
> - awh

[Cub Driver]

>I am so paranoid that I get two briefings, one through duats at
>home
>and then right after pre-flight I call the FSS with my cell
>phone and talk to an actual human for the absolute freshest

I fly a Piper Cub out of Hampton NH, which is within the 30-mile TFR
around Kennebunkport ME that springs up whenever Bush 43 visits Bush
41. Since I usually fly first thing in the morning, and there own't be
anyone at the airport to warn me, I just call FSS as a matter of
routine and ask about the TFRs. Then I say: "Anything else I should
know?" Never has one shown the slightest bit of irritation, yet their
calls must have doubled or trebled over the past year or two.

It's been a helpful development for me. I'd fallen out of the habit of
checking with FSS, because I feel stupid asking for a briefing on a
50-mile XC in a 60-knot airplane--there's always the feeling that
somebody might say: "Yeah, why don't you just look out the window?"
Now I'm back in the habit again, and that's good, I reckon.
all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

[Cub Driver]

> I can also imagine that "politeness" and "respect
>for the general public" may or may not be part of it

Politeness is going to be very much a part of the Secret Service
ethos, just as it is with the FBI or even the U.S. Army. You're going
to be much safer with them than with the lads in the Newmarket NH
police force (or the Los Angeles police force, for that matter).

(That's after you're captured, of course. That should not be a hurtful
process if you're in an airplane and your hands are visible, as
opposed to being on a street corner with one hand inside your jacket.)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

[James Robinson]

Cub Driver wrote:
>
> I realize that a pair of Cub Cruisers flew around the world postwar,
> but a J-3/L-4 is something else entirely. How do you suppose he would
> do it? The water route simply looks impossible (he made a couple of
> 500 NM water crossings on his way to Australia) so I;m betting he'd
> travel through China and Russia. Is that feasible?

An ultralight pilot has already done it through Siberia. He ran into a
problem trying to get to Greenland from Canada, however, since Canadian
regulations required such flights to have an IFR rated pilot, and the
aircraft had to be IFR equipped.

http://www.copanational.org/non-members/Newsletter/newsDec02A.htm

[Martin Hotze]

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 07:15:11 -0400, Cub Driver wrote:

>As for Al Qaeda taken in combat circumstances in Afghanistan,

you mean the "yet another invasion of a sovereign country by us"?
your short 'history' (500 ridiculous years) has more blood on its hands
than many other countries together.

> they
>have absolutely no moral or legal claim to the protections of the
>American constitution.

don't argue with your constitution while invading countries on the other
side of the globe.

> They get a far better break than they would in
>most parts of the world, and far better than Americans get in like
>circumstances.

hang 'em all?

</rant>

#m

--
http://www.usawatch.org/ http://www.alternet.org/

John Gilmore: I was ejected from a plane for wearing
"Suspected Terrorist" button http://www.politechbot.com/p-04973.html

[Matthew P. Cummings]

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 13:59:35 +0200, Martin Hotze wrote:

> your short 'history' (500 ridiculous years) has more blood on its hands
> than many other countries together.

Breathe Martin, breathe, you're turning purple again.

[Martin Hotze]

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 07:18:35 -0500, Matthew P. Cummings wrote:

>On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 13:59:35 +0200, Martin Hotze wrote:
>
>> your short 'history' (500 ridiculous years) has more blood on its hands
>> than many other countries together.
>
>Breathe Martin, breathe, you're turning purple again.


yep. thanks. it's working again. :-))


#m
--
http://www.usawatch.org/ http://www.alternet.org/

John Gilmore: I was ejected from a plane for wearing
"Suspected Terrorist" button http://www.politechbot.com/p-04973.html

[Tom S.]

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 07:15:11 -0400, Cub Driver wrote:
>
> >As for Al Qaeda taken in combat circumstances in Afghanistan,
>
> you mean the "yet another invasion of a sovereign country by us"?

Martin,

Germany and Japan were sovereign countries...

> your short 'history' (500 ridiculous years) has more blood on its hands
> than many other countries together.

We'd have to go a long way to surpass the 100 million that Europe alone
killed just in the past century.

[Martin Hotze]

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 12:36:23 -0700, Tom S. wrote:

>> >As for Al Qaeda taken in combat circumstances in Afghanistan,
>> you mean the "yet another invasion of a sovereign country by us"?
>
>Martin,
>
>Germany and Japan were sovereign countries...

you at least declared war.

>> your short 'history' (500 ridiculous years) has more blood on its hands
>> than many other countries together.
>
>We'd have to go a long way to surpass the 100 million that Europe alone
>killed just in the past century.

you had your share.

#m
--
http://www.usawatch.org/ http://www.alternet.org/

24 "Deceptions" In 704 words: Bush's 2003 SOTU
http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/03/07/22_sotu.html

[Tom S.]

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 12:36:23 -0700, Tom S. wrote:
>
> >> >As for Al Qaeda taken in combat circumstances in Afghanistan,
> >> you mean the "yet another invasion of a sovereign country by us"?
> >
> >Martin,
> >
> >Germany and Japan were sovereign countries...
>
> you at least declared war.
>
> >> your short 'history' (500 ridiculous years) has more blood on its hands
> >> than many other countries together.
> >
> >We'd have to go a long way to surpass the 100 million that Europe alone
> >killed just in the past century.
>
> you had your share.

Not hardly (other than bailing others out of their mess).

[Montblack]

1. 250 years ...tops.
(Before that, there were mostly only savages about - Puritans!! Can I help
it I was raised Catholic? <evil grin>)

2. Hell Marty, we invaded ourselves ...in 1776 :-)
(Did it again in 1861)

You're right, this war stuff is kind of in our blood.

--
Montblack

"Martin Hotze"
<snip>
> you mean the "yet another invasion of a sovereign country by us"?
> your short 'history' (500 ridiculous years) has more blood on its hands
> than many other countries together.

<snip>
> don't argue with your constitution while invading countries on the other
> side of the globe.

[Larry Dighera]

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 22:18:24 GMT, Bob Noel
> wrote in Message-Id:
>:

>(who got here who-knows-when).

Rumor is, about 10,000 years ago after the last ice age.
--

Irrational beliefs ultimately lead to irrational acts.
-- Larry Dighera,

[Cub Driver]

Thanks for the pointer!

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

[Flyer22A]

"Tom S." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 07:15:11 -0400, Cub Driver wrote:
> >
> > >As for Al Qaeda taken in combat circumstances in Afghanistan,
> >
> > you mean the "yet another invasion of a sovereign country by us"?
>
> Martin,
>
> Germany and Japan were sovereign countries...
>
> > your short 'history' (500 ridiculous years) has more blood on its hands
> > than many other countries together.
>
> We'd have to go a long way to surpass the 100 million that Europe alone
> killed just in the past century.
>
>

What about the indigenous populations of the nations prior to the "United
States" on this continent? Probably the American Indian peoples would
disagree that the white population doesn't have lots of blood on it's hands
and that we didn't invade them.

Oh, and don't forget the noble effort to suppress an entire segment of the
American population during the civil war.

Per capita/on average we probably exceeded the 100 million number.

And how about (since we are on the subject) the acts of terrorism
perpetrated against the British Military and resident government by the
American revolutionaries.

I guess it must just be one's point of view ...

[Tom S.]

"Flyer22A" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tom S." > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 07:15:11 -0400, Cub Driver wrote:
> > >
> > > >As for Al Qaeda taken in combat circumstances in Afghanistan,
> > >
> > > you mean the "yet another invasion of a sovereign country by us"?
> >
> > Martin,
> >
> > Germany and Japan were sovereign countries...
> >
> > > your short 'history' (500 ridiculous years) has more blood on its
hands
> > > than many other countries together.
> >
> > We'd have to go a long way to surpass the 100 million that Europe alone
> > killed just in the past century.
> >
> >
>
> What about the indigenous populations of the nations prior to the "United
> States" on this continent? Probably the American Indian peoples would
> disagree that the white population doesn't have lots of blood on it's
hands
> and that we didn't invade them.

Whom did we invade?

> Oh, and don't forget the noble effort to suppress an entire segment of the
> American population during the civil war.

Slavers? Yeah, tough crowd.

> Per capita/on average we probably exceeded the 100 million number.

"Probably"? Don't you know? What did they tell you in public school?


>
> And how about (since we are on the subject) the acts of terrorism
> perpetrated against the British Military and resident government by the
> American revolutionaries.

Eat ****.

> I guess it must just be one's point of view ...
>
Yeah...may your kids **** on your grave.

[Newps]

Flyer22A wrote:


>
> What about the indigenous populations of the nations prior to the "United
> States" on this continent? Probably the American Indian peoples would
> disagree that the white population doesn't have lots of blood on it's hands
> and that we didn't invade them.

Oh please. The Indians were at war with themselves constantly, for
thousands of years.

[Bob Noel]

In article >, "Flyer22A"
> wrote:

> What about the indigenous populations of the nations prior to the "United
> States" on this continent? Probably the American Indian peoples would
> disagree that the white population doesn't have lots of blood on it's
> hands
> and that we didn't invade them.

"we"? who is this "we"? Are you lumping the Spanish in with the
"white population"? From my reading of history, the British,
French, and Spanish were both friends and enemies of "native
americans."

--
Bob Noel

[Neil Gould]

Hi,

"Newps" > wrote:
> Flyer22A wrote:
> >
> > What about the indigenous populations of the nations prior to the
"United
> > States" on this continent? Probably the American Indian peoples would
> > disagree that the white population doesn't have lots of blood on it's
hands
> > and that we didn't invade them.
>
> Oh please. The Indians were at war with themselves constantly, for
> thousands of years.
>
That's a pretty broad statement, and not universally true. Just as in the
rest of the world, some peoples were "invaders", and others were not. "The
Indians" are no more monolithic than anyone else.

Neil

[Dennis O'Connor]

There are no indigenous people in Ireland... It is an island that has been
colonized, starved out, recolonized, conquered, lost, reconquered, and has
been self destructive for tens of thousands of years...
A king was merely the biggest thief, bully, rapist, and murderer in the
neighborhood...

Dennis O'Connor
who also is descended from 'royal' scum

"Big John" > wrote in message
...
> How about the Irish. I date from the King of Munster, 950 AD.

[Steve House]

The same can be said for virtually every nationality and ethnic group on the
planet. Not much has really changed in human psychology and politics since
the last ice age ended and hunter gatherers started to settle into villages.
Rousseau's "Noble Savage" is as much a fiction as the Lilliputians and
Brobdignagans.

"Dennis O'Connor" > wrote in message
...
> There are no indigenous people in Ireland... It is an island that has
been
> colonized, starved out, recolonized, conquered, lost, reconquered, and has
> been self destructive for tens of thousands of years...
> A king was merely the biggest thief, bully, rapist, and murderer in the
> neighborhood...
>
> Dennis O'Connor
> who also is descended from 'royal' scum
>
> "Big John" > wrote in message
> ...
> > How about the Irish. I date from the King of Munster, 950 AD.
>
>

[David Brooks]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Montblack"
> > wrote:
>
> > 1. 250 years ...tops.
>
> 227 years. Before that we were a colony of a European country.

220 years. After stopping being colonials, and before the Treaty of Paris,
you were just a bunch of outlaws :-)

-- David Brooks

[Neil Gould]

Hi,

"David Brooks" > wrote:
> "Bob Noel" > wrote in message
> > In article >, "Montblack"
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > 1. 250 years ...tops.
> >
> > 227 years. Before that we were a colony of a European country.
>
> 220 years. After stopping being colonials, and before the Treaty of
Paris,
> you were just a bunch of outlaws :-)
>
Hmm. The more things change...

Neil