Re: Dead Stick Landings

[Gene Seibel]

I have. My own fault. Ran out of fuel. No physical damage to the
aircraft or me. Details at http://pad39a.com/gene/breathe.html
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.


"Rocky" > wrote in message
om...
> Aside from glider pilots.... how many of you have ever experienced
an
> engine out dead stick landing? Care to talk about it? I've done
quite
> a few of them. Some were intentional, some were during training, and
> some happened at the most inopportune time with mechanical failures
of
> one sort or other. This included helicopters and airplanes.

[Casey Wilson]

"Rocky" > wrote in message
om...
> Aside from glider pilots.... how many of you have ever experienced an
> engine out dead stick landing? Care to talk about it? I've done quite
> a few of them. Some were intentional, some were during training, and
> some happened at the most inopportune time with mechanical failures of
> one sort or other. This included helicopters and airplanes.

When I was taking some aerobatic dual. I'm no lightweight and my CFI
was heavier. With the two of us AND parachutes in the 150 Aerobat more than
40 minutes fuel pushed us over MGW. On more than one occasion, the prop quit
spinning because we were both having too much fun to watch the clock. The
first time it happened in a snap-roll and I had to recover from inverted.
Except for once, we were always within glide range of the airport. Density
altitude got me that day. Landed on a good dirt road, not a problem. The CFI
made me walk back and get a can of gas.
Funny you should mention gliders. I've never made an off-field landing.

[Al Gerharter]

I have. Outside of traning, I've lost 7 engines in about 7 thousand hours.
Four failures were in three twins, 3 failures were in singles, and all were
landed on a paved airports. 4 of the five airports had a bar. 1 of the
single failures was night/IFR/over mauntains. One of the twins, it was both
engines(fuel ice). One of my first instructors once said "Luck is where
opportunity meets preparation". Al Gerharter CFIAMI



"Rocky" > wrote in message
om...
> Aside from glider pilots.... how many of you have ever experienced an
> engine out dead stick landing? Care to talk about it? I've done quite
> a few of them. Some were intentional, some were during training, and
> some happened at the most inopportune time with mechanical failures of
> one sort or other. This included helicopters and airplanes.

[Snowbird]

(Rocky) wrote in message >...
> Aside from glider pilots.... how many of you have ever experienced an
> engine out dead stick landing? Care to talk about it? I've done quite
> a few of them.

Then why don't you go first?

I could be mistaken, but I'm smelling 'troll' here.

Cheers,
Sydney

[John Gaquin]

"Rocky" > wrote in message
om...
> Aside from glider pilots.... how many of you have ever experienced an
> engine out dead stick landing?

I flew for 26 years, mostly professionally, and never had a catastrophic
failure of anything. Just lucky, I guess.

JG

[altekocker]

I did fly gliders for awhile. Then, after I'd acquired about 250 hours asel,
during a BFR in a 182, we were at 400 feet on takeoff when my instructor
reached over and took the key out of the mag switch.

I turned 180 but not back to the runway (that would have been 270) and
landed on a taxiway.

I have two friends who made successful landings after catasrophic engine
failures. One put his 182 onto a landfill, damaging only the wheelpants. The
other turned 180 on takeoff at 600 feet in a Tiger and parked it neatly on
the runway -- three pax, no airframe damage, and she now wears the melted
exhaust valve mushroom, in a silver setting, on chain around her neck.

Seth
Comanche N8100R

"Rocky" > wrote in message
om...
> Aside from glider pilots.... how many of you have ever experienced an
> engine out dead stick landing? Care to talk about it? I've done quite
> a few of them. Some were intentional, some were during training, and
> some happened at the most inopportune time with mechanical failures of
> one sort or other. This included helicopters and airplanes.

[ls]

"Snowbird" > wrote in message
om...
> (Rocky) wrote in message
>...
> > Aside from glider pilots.... how many of you have ever experienced an
> > engine out dead stick landing? Care to talk about it? I've done quite
> > a few of them.
>
> Then why don't you go first?
>
> I could be mistaken, but I'm smelling 'troll' here.


I was thinking sorta the same thing..... But I'll bite anyway. I've had one
real engine-out and an estimated 50 to 75 intentional prop-stopped flights
(I've lost count actually). The real one was simpler/easier to handle than
most of the intentional ones. Hope my next real one is as uneventful.....

LS
AC fun racer 503.

> Cheers,
> Sydney

[Robert M. Gary]

I kinda lost an engine in a J-3 once due to carb ice. The carb heat
was actually on at the time but I guess it took that long for the ice
to become water. However, by the time I completed my 180 back to the
field, it had cleared.



(Rocky) wrote in message >...
> Aside from glider pilots.... how many of you have ever experienced an
> engine out dead stick landing? Care to talk about it? I've done quite
> a few of them. Some were intentional, some were during training, and
> some happened at the most inopportune time with mechanical failures of
> one sort or other. This included helicopters and airplanes.

[Ditch]

> how many of you have ever experienced an
>engine out dead stick landing?

In 5000 hours, I have had 3 full engine failures (two at low altitude), 4
partial failures and once (and I kid you not) I have had both prop governors
fail on a Twin Otter. The left one failed first and I shut the motor down and
the right one failed as I was turning a very high final. Interesting day.
One of the low altitude failures resulted in the airplane going in to a ditch
on airport property. Totalled the airplane, but my student and I walked out ok.




-John
*You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North
American*

[Yossarian]

I don't understand how you can pull a 180 from only 400' with no engine
power.

"altekocker" > wrote in message
...
> I did fly gliders for awhile. Then, after I'd acquired about 250 hours
asel,
> during a BFR in a 182, we were at 400 feet on takeoff when my instructor
> reached over and took the key out of the mag switch.
>
> I turned 180 but not back to the runway (that would have been 270) and
> landed on a taxiway.

[karl gruber]

******I could be mistaken, but I'm smelling 'troll' here.*******

You guys haven't been around here long. "Rocky" is most certainly NOT a
troll. Unless trolls fly around doing weird things like crop dusting and
bush flying.

About the engine failure thing. My time is almost equally split between
piston and turbine. A piston engine has never let me down. But I have had
two PT-6's quit on me. Both times in twins at altitude so it was no big
deal.

I guess you can guess my opinion of singles with PT-6s??????? Right now I
prefer three engine airplanes!


Karl

[Newps]

In my 182 I can do a 180 in 350 feet, and that's only with a 45 degree
bank. It then takes another 100 feet to get lined back up with the
runway you took off on. The best bank angle is 60 degrees but I think
that may be a little tough to do in an emergency. So at an unfamiliar
airport I use 500 feet as my turnaround altitude in case of an engine
failure.

Yossarian wrote:
> I don't understand how you can pull a 180 from only 400' with no engine
> power.
>
> "altekocker" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I did fly gliders for awhile. Then, after I'd acquired about 250 hours
>
> asel,
>
>>during a BFR in a 182, we were at 400 feet on takeoff when my instructor
>>reached over and took the key out of the mag switch.
>>
>>I turned 180 but not back to the runway (that would have been 270) and
>>landed on a taxiway.
>
>
>
>

[Michael]

(Ditch) wrote
> once (and I kid you not) I have had both prop governors
> fail on a Twin Otter.

Flying jumpers, right?

A good friend of mine once decided to try and gather engine failure
statistics for Twin Otters used as jumpships. Not easy - most are not
reported, and most DZ's won't give you the time of day when you ask a
question like that. On top of that, operating hours are mostly
guesswork. But jumpers talk, and he knew a lot of them.

Of course the numbers for failures and operating hours in Part-121
Twin Otters are available from the FAA.

Near as he could figure, the failure rate in jumpship service was
about 300 times higher than in Part 121 service.

Michael

[Ditch]

>Flying jumpers, right?

Yup...the scary thing, this was one of the better Twotters out there.

>Near as he could figure, the failure rate in jumpship service was
>about 300 times higher than in Part 121 service.
>


I can believe it.


-John
*You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North
American*

[Big John]

That's right at the ragged edge, so I'd say very carefully and pray.

Big John


On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 05:09:52 GMT, "Yossarian" >
wrote:

>I don't understand how you can pull a 180 from only 400' with no engine
>power.
>
>"altekocker" > wrote in message
...
>> I did fly gliders for awhile. Then, after I'd acquired about 250 hours
>asel,
>> during a BFR in a 182, we were at 400 feet on takeoff when my instructor
>> reached over and took the key out of the mag switch.
>>
>> I turned 180 but not back to the runway (that would have been 270) and
>> landed on a taxiway.
>
>

[Kevin Chandler]

I think I would have knocked out my instructor for doing something that
stupid.

"altekocker" > wrote in message
...
> I did fly gliders for awhile. Then, after I'd acquired about 250 hours
asel,
> during a BFR in a 182, we were at 400 feet on takeoff when my instructor
> reached over and took the key out of the mag switch.
>
> I turned 180 but not back to the runway (that would have been 270) and
> landed on a taxiway.
>
> I have two friends who made successful landings after catasrophic engine
> failures. One put his 182 onto a landfill, damaging only the wheelpants.
The
> other turned 180 on takeoff at 600 feet in a Tiger and parked it neatly on
> the runway -- three pax, no airframe damage, and she now wears the melted
> exhaust valve mushroom, in a silver setting, on chain around her neck.
>
> Seth
> Comanche N8100R
>
> "Rocky" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Aside from glider pilots.... how many of you have ever experienced an
> > engine out dead stick landing? Care to talk about it? I've done quite
> > a few of them. Some were intentional, some were during training, and
> > some happened at the most inopportune time with mechanical failures of
> > one sort or other. This included helicopters and airplanes.
>
>

[Michael]

"Yossarian" > wrote
> I don't understand how you can pull a 180 from only 400' with no engine
> power.

More easily than you might imagine. Most singles in that class have a
power-off descent rate of about 800 fpm (give or take a bit) in the
normal takeoff configuration at normal glide speeds. It will be a
little more in a steep turn. That gives you a little less than 30
seconds to work with - tight but doable. Generally glide speeds tend
to be 70 kts give or take a bit, and that means with 45 degrees of
bank you're doing more than 3 times standard rate - which means a 180
takes less than 20 seconds. So from 400 ft you have enough time to
make a 180, do a minor correction to line up with the runway, and
flare.

Part of glider training is an intentional tow release at 200 ft or so,
with a return to the field. This means making more than a 180 -
sometimes as much as a 270 - plus another turn to get lined up,
sometimes as much as 90 degrees. The turns are made at normal glide
speed and 45 degrees of bank. Glider sink rates being what they are,
this gives the pilot a little more than a minute to work with - which
isn't even tight. It's a presolo maneuver that a pilot with less than
10 hours total time is expected to perform correctly, and in my
experience most pilots get it right on the first or second attempt.

Michael

[john]

<snip>

had a prop governor drive failure in a PA32 (T-tail Lance) after T/O
from Port St. Joe FL, a 4230 x 65 grass strip. Took off from 18 & was
climbing through 600' agl on downwind when what I thought was rain
began to spray on the windshield. Trouble was, there wasn't a cloud in
the sky. As I was 3/4 of the way on downwind the little idler shaft
driving the governor spit out behind the flywheel & it puked 10-11 qt
of oil out the front. The oil actually rained inside the cockpit
through the overhead fresh air vents. Abeam the numbers 36, I shut the
engine down, got the wheels out (got lucky & saved the bearings).
With the luxury of a 4000+ rwy, I was able to put it into a slip so I
could see out the left side window & get it on the ground (killed a
lot of grass from the oil). The engine was overhauled 400 hrs earlier
& it seemed that they didn't safety wire the crankcase plug which
retained the little prop governor driveshaft at the front of the
engine. Having flown the Lance in a lot of IMC, night, over mountains,
out to the Bahamas, etc, I kinda shake when I think of other times it
could have let go!

I have instructed "the impossible turn" back to the rwy in my 172. As
others have said here, 60 deg bank worked best for me. The teardrop
turn involves a total of 270deg of heading change. In standard
conditions, 400' - 450' agl was a comfortable minimum altitude. I
certainly don't advocate teaching this emergency maneuver as a part of
primary training due to the vagaries of reaction time, density
altitude. etc; but its a fun exercise if approached carefully & only
with someone who has had spin training & knows what rudder pedals are
for.

john

[H. Adam Stevens]

"john" > wrote in message
...
> <snip>
>
> had a prop governor drive failure in a PA32 (T-tail Lance) after T/O
> from Port St. Joe FL, a 4230 x 65 grass strip. Took off from 18 & was
> climbing through 600' agl on downwind when what I thought was rain
> began to spray on the windshield. Trouble was, there wasn't a cloud in
> the sky. As I was 3/4 of the way on downwind the little idler shaft
> driving the governor spit out behind the flywheel & it puked 10-11 qt
> of oil out the front. The oil actually rained inside the cockpit
> through the overhead fresh air vents. Abeam the numbers 36, I shut the
> engine down, got the wheels out (got lucky & saved the bearings).
> With the luxury of a 4000+ rwy, I was able to put it into a slip so I
> could see out the left side window & get it on the ground (killed a
> lot of grass from the oil). The engine was overhauled 400 hrs earlier
> & it seemed that they didn't safety wire the crankcase plug which
> retained the little prop governor driveshaft at the front of the
> engine. Having flown the Lance in a lot of IMC, night, over mountains,
> out to the Bahamas, etc, I kinda shake when I think of other times it
> could have let go!
>
> I have instructed "the impossible turn" back to the rwy in my 172. As
> others have said here, 60 deg bank worked best for me. The teardrop
> turn involves a total of 270deg of heading change. In standard
> conditions, 400' - 450' agl was a comfortable minimum altitude. I
> certainly don't advocate teaching this emergency maneuver as a part of
> primary training due to the vagaries of reaction time, density
> altitude. etc; but its a fun exercise if approached carefully & only
> with someone who has had spin training & knows what rudder pedals are
> for.
>
> john

Go up a few thousand feet and practice where there's some room.

A few years back I had the delightful opportunity to attend a reunion of B24
pilots from the Ploesti raid.
IIRC they were the Crusaders, the 392nd bomb group.
I shook the hand of a pilot who "dead sticked" a B24.

H.
N502TB

[Art Johnson]

"altekocker" > wrote in message >...
> I did fly gliders for awhile. Then, after I'd acquired about 250 hours asel,
> during a BFR in a 182, we were at 400 feet on takeoff when my instructor
> reached over and took the key out of the mag switch.
>
I would hit this Motherf*****r so hard and often, he never would done
that agin to anyone. Regards, Art
>
> Seth
> Comanche N8100R
>
> "Rocky" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Aside from glider pilots.... how many of you have ever experienced an
> > engine out dead stick landing? Care to talk about it? I've done quite
> > a few of them. Some were intentional, some were during training, and
> > some happened at the most inopportune time with mechanical failures of
> > one sort or other. This included helicopters and airplanes.

[Ditch]

>I shook the hand of a pilot who "dead sticked" a B24.

Pretty neat dead sticking that thing.
The coolest dead stick landing (IMHO) occured on April 4, 1963 when Stu
Harrison dead-sticked an F-8 Crusader on to a carrier.


-John
*You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North
American*

[Roger Halstead]

On 28 Jul 2003 11:35:44 -0700, (Rocky) wrote:

>Aside from glider pilots.... how many of you have ever experienced an
>engine out dead stick landing? Care to talk about it? I've done quite
>a few of them. Some were intentional, some were during training, and
>some happened at the most inopportune time with mechanical failures of
>one sort or other. This included helicopters and airplanes.

Engine quit on take off...bout a 100 MPH and some where between 30 and
50 feet.

I just let the nose down, put in full flaps and discovered that I was
stopped on a lot less distance than I had expected.

The diaphragm in the fuel distribution block (on top of the fuel
injected engine) ruptured. That diaphragm uses fuel pressure to
open a valve. No pressure and the valve closes to keep fuel from
siphoning off into the cylinders.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

[Dennis O'Connor]

That is one set of solid blue steel, cajones!

Denny

"Ditch" > wrote in message
...
> >I shook the hand of a pilot who "dead sticked" a B24.
>
> Pretty neat dead sticking that thing.
> The coolest dead stick landing (IMHO) occured on April 4, 1963 when Stu
> Harrison dead-sticked an F-8 Crusader on to a carrier.
>
>
> -John
> *You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or
North
> American*

[Big John]

Ditch

Can you give us the story please.

When I was seconded to Navy, loss of engine in SE bird, you punched.

If he lost just at touch down, another story. No bolter ability and
hand on the ejection system if he didn't get at least the #4 wire.

Big John


On 30 Jul 2003 05:07:11 GMT, (Ditch) wrote:

>>I shook the hand of a pilot who "dead sticked" a B24.
>
>Pretty neat dead sticking that thing.
>The coolest dead stick landing (IMHO) occured on April 4, 1963 when Stu
>Harrison dead-sticked an F-8 Crusader on to a carrier.
>
>
>-John
>*You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North
>American*

[Dana M. Hague]

On 28 Jul 2003 11:35:44 -0700, (Rocky) wrote:

>Aside from glider pilots.... how many of you have ever experienced an
>engine out dead stick landing?

Unintentional... two (not counting several in the powered
paraglider I'm flying these days, but you expect that with 2-stroke
engines). The two were both in the Taylorcraft I used to own. One
was when a valve seat came loose about 100' in the air on takeoff.
Got it back down on the runway (a wheel landing well above stall
speed) and screeched to a halt just before the tall weeds beyond the
end of the field. It was a credit to my passenger that he stuck with
me when I rented a 172 to finish the business trip we were on.

The other was contaminated fuel (the FBO had just bought a new
fuel truck; apparently I got a load of crud but even though I drained
the gascolator before flight, apparently it hadn't had time to settle
out yet). I made an uneventful landing in a rural field in NJ, and
only after stopping did I notice the rusty windsock frame near the
edge of the field.... apparently it was an abandoned cropduster's
field.

During the brief time I kept the plane at a field with a long
runway, I used to routinely shut down and do deadstick landings....
good practice, the airplane definitely handled differently.

-Dana
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