MMU ramp fee

[Peter Gottlieb]

Just returned from Oshkosh to NY. Due to some "interesting" weather along
the route, it took 2 days and multiple stops, with some legs having to be
IFR.

Every FBO along the way was super, and at virtually all of them I bought
either fuel or something else.

However, at MMU, where I wanted to make a stop for a few minutes to take one
last look at a cell moveing near my home field, I found out what many of you
already have learned.

The FBO is Signature; I stopped (place was fairly empty, there was only one
other plane there that was not tied down), went in, looked at the weather
terminal, called FSS, and went back to the door. Surprise! It was locked.
I pressed buttons, nothing. Then a lady came to the counter and informed me
there was a $22 fee for coming there and I could leave as soon as I paid it.

Not a good feeling at all. Message received loud and clear: Stay away from
us!

[Ryan Ferguson]

Peter Gottlieb wrote:


> Not a good feeling at all. Message received loud and clear: Stay away from
> us!

Sorry, Peter. It's always a disappointment to read this kind of account.

Signature sucks. I will never patronize them unless I absolutely have to do
it. It was such a disappointment when they bought out Savannah Aviation's
fueling business. Of course, the prices went sky high, the service dropped, and
a field monopoly was formed. As a result I no longer consider Savannah a
suitable enroute alternate. :( Nice folks, nice town, all off-limits now.

Make it a point to punish them on airnav.com. Kerosene burners read (and leave)
comments about bad FBOs too.

-Ryan
CFII-A/MEI/CFI-H

[Guy Elden Jr.]

"Peter Gottlieb" > wrote in message
. net...
> However, at MMU, where I wanted to make a stop for a few minutes to take
one
> last look at a cell moveing near my home field, I found out what many of
you
> already have learned.
>
> The FBO is Signature; I stopped (place was fairly empty, there was only
one
> other plane there that was not tied down), went in, looked at the weather
> terminal, called FSS, and went back to the door. Surprise! It was
locked.
> I pressed buttons, nothing. Then a lady came to the counter and informed
me
> there was a $22 fee for coming there and I could leave as soon as I paid
it.

Yep... MMU has really changed since Signature got their new terminal built
there. They're pretty much hell bent on pricing out all non Jet-A equipped
planes from the market. They've already squeezed out the flight school I
attend (moved to CDW), and with the prices they charge for fuel, it's highly
doubtful that many x-country prop jobs will be stopping there enroute. It's
a real shame. Last year around this time, the pattern was always filled with
single engine Cessnas and Pipers, lots of students coming and going, in and
around the larger biz jets. Now all I see in and out of there are the biz
jets... hardly ever spot a small plane, and I drive past the approach end of
runway 23 every day to and from work.

The one good thing I can say about the field is that the guys who run the
tower are a first-class group. They are always on top of their game, and if
you make a mistake, they work with you to get things sorted out, instead of
berating you like certain controllers at other nearby fields do.
*ahem*cdw*ahem*. I really miss the quality of service that they provide, so
I try to do touch & goes there every once in a while. But I'll never, ever
get fuel from Signature, let alone park on their ramp... their attitude is
that the only people that matter are the ones flying the big jets. They've
got a really sweet deal too from the local government... I think they (or
DM, the airport managers), pay a ridiculously low price of $100k a year to
Morristown... and it's a 99 year lease. There's absolutely no excuse for the
way they treat the smaller guy there except greed. IMO.

--
Guy Elden Jr.

[Dan Luke]

"Guy Elden Jr." wrote:
> There's absolutely no excuse for the
> way they treat the smaller guy there except greed. IMO.

I've often seen this charge made against Signature and others. My question
is, if it's true, why are they doing it? How does it hurt their business for
small prop airplanes to stop and buy fuel?
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Tom S.]

"Peter Gottlieb" > wrote in message
. net...
> The FBO is Signature; I stopped (place was fairly empty, there was only
one
> other plane there that was not tied down), went in, looked at the weather
> terminal, called FSS, and went back to the door. Surprise! It was
locked.
> I pressed buttons, nothing. Then a lady came to the counter and informed
me
> there was a $22 fee for coming there and I could leave as soon as I paid
it.

Most places that's called "unlawful detention".

[Tom S.]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
> "Guy Elden Jr." wrote:
> > There's absolutely no excuse for the
> > way they treat the smaller guy there except greed. IMO.
>
> I've often seen this charge made against Signature and others. My question
> is, if it's true, why are they doing it? How does it hurt their business
for
> small prop airplanes to stop and buy fuel?
> --

Make' em get off their ass. With the economy and travel being what it is
today, they must being looking to join that fraternity of the 94% of
businesses that fail. (94% of businesses fail within their first seven
years).

[Tom S.]

"Gary L. Drescher" > wrote in message
et...
> "Tom S." > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Peter Gottlieb" > wrote in message
> > . net...
> > > The FBO is Signature; I stopped (place was fairly empty, there was
only
> > one
> > > other plane there that was not tied down), went in, looked at the
> weather
> > > terminal, called FSS, and went back to the door. Surprise! It was
> > locked.
> > > I pressed buttons, nothing. Then a lady came to the counter and
> informed
> > me
> > > there was a $22 fee for coming there and I could leave as soon as I
paid
> > it.
> >
> > Most places that's called "unlawful detention".
>
> Only if the front door's locked too.
>
In reading it again, I don't see any other door mentioned.

[Gary L. Drescher]

"Tom S." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gary L. Drescher" > wrote in message
> et...
> > "Tom S." > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Peter Gottlieb" > wrote in message
> > > . net...
> > > > The FBO is Signature; I stopped (place was fairly empty, there was
> only
> > > one
> > > > other plane there that was not tied down), went in, looked at the
> > weather
> > > > terminal, called FSS, and went back to the door. Surprise! It was
> > > locked.
> > > > I pressed buttons, nothing. Then a lady came to the counter and
> > informed
> > > me
> > > > there was a $22 fee for coming there and I could leave as soon as I
> paid
> > > it.
> > >
> > > Most places that's called "unlawful detention".
> >
> > Only if the front door's locked too.
> >
> In reading it again, I don't see any other door mentioned.

Well, there's no mention of walls either, so I guess Peter could've just
walked around the locked door. :)

[Peter Gottlieb]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
> "Guy Elden Jr." wrote:
> > There's absolutely no excuse for the
> > way they treat the smaller guy there except greed. IMO.
>
> I've often seen this charge made against Signature and others. My question
> is, if it's true, why are they doing it? How does it hurt their business
for
> small prop airplanes to stop and buy fuel?
> --


I would guess that they see their profit in servicing the high end of GA and
are aiming to monopolize that market by targeting fields they see as
strategic. To them, small GA planes are an annoyance and in order to make
their target minimum profit per plane they have to either charge a large
amount for fuel or hit you with a significant ramp fee. They want to be a
private network of terminals for fractional jets.

I do not contest that it is expensive to build, maintain, staff and supply a
quality FBO. However, when large numbers of customers are shocked by out of
line charges and make a conscious decision to avoid a certain chain of FBOs
it is not a good thing for anyone. If they had charged me maybe $5 for
dropping by I wouldn't have felt ripped off and would consider returning.
Some days I would only buy a couple of sodas and look at the weather
computer, other days I would top off my tanks and maybe buy some plates for
an area I am heading into and they would on average make some bucks from me.
Now if they keep away a lot of the GA fleet they are not making a lot of
money. One of the line guys said it was very quiet there with not many
planes showing up. I'm sure they are running that operation at a loss. Now
if they could make it real attractive for more of the GA population they
might very well be able to make a profit, but with the way they acted, I'm
not so sure I'd want that.

I'll tell you one thing, though. If I ever find myself stopping at
Signature again I am sure as heck getting my money's worth out of them in
services.

[Rosspilot]

>If I ever find myself stopping at
>Signature again I am sure as heck getting my money's worth out of them in
>services.

Hard to eat $22 worth of popcorn. <G>


www.Rosspilot.com

[Dan Luke]

"Peter Gottlieb" wrote:
> To them, small GA planes are an annoyance and in order to make
> their target minimum profit per plane they have to either charge a large
> amount for fuel or hit you with a significant ramp fee...
> ...One of the line guys said it was very quiet there with not many
> planes showing up.

See, that's what I don't understand: I've never been in an FBO that I would
describe as "busy." Why would they want to discourage our business?
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Peter Gottlieb]

"Gary L. Drescher" > wrote in message
et...
> "Tom S." > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Gary L. Drescher" > wrote in message
> > et...
> > > "Tom S." > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "Peter Gottlieb" > wrote in message
> > > > . net...
> > > > > The FBO is Signature; I stopped (place was fairly empty, there was
> > only
> > > > one
> > > > > other plane there that was not tied down), went in, looked at the
> > > weather
> > > > > terminal, called FSS, and went back to the door. Surprise! It
was
> > > > locked.
> > > > > I pressed buttons, nothing. Then a lady came to the counter and
> > > informed
> > > > me
> > > > > there was a $22 fee for coming there and I could leave as soon as
I
> > paid
> > > > it.
> > > >
> > > > Most places that's called "unlawful detention".
> > >
> > > Only if the front door's locked too.
> > >
> > In reading it again, I don't see any other door mentioned.
>
> Well, there's no mention of walls either, so I guess Peter could've just
> walked around the locked door. :)
>

There might have been an unlocked front door but the only door to the ramp
(and my plane!) was definitely locked.

[Peter Gottlieb]

"Rosspilot" > wrote in message
...
> >If I ever find myself stopping at
> >Signature again I am sure as heck getting my money's worth out of them in
> >services.
>
> Hard to eat $22 worth of popcorn. <G>

True, even at movie theater prices.

[Jim Herring]

Peter Gottlieb wrote:

> There might have been an unlocked front door but the only door to the ramp
> (and my plane!) was definitely locked.

In most places in the USA it's illegal for an exit door to be locked during
business hours. Violates the fire code.

--
Jim

carry on

[Michael]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote
> More likely because its unprofitable.

Probably. So for everyone in the area - here's how you can get back
at them.

Thinking about shooting some practice approaches? MMU is a good place
for it. Thinking of going someplace to get those controlled field
landings in? Maybe some pattern work? MMU is a good place for it.

Controller status (including pay) is determined by the NUMBER of
operations at the facility, not the type. Every time that controller
tells you "Cleared for touch&go" that's two operations. A good
controller can really keep that pattern hopping. Of course that's
exactly the kind of place the bizjet pilot prefers to avoid - and he's
the guy Signature is depending on.

So make it a point to make MMU the center for student training. Get
that operations count up. The controllers will love you. As for
Signature - well, they don't care about us, so why should we care
about them?

Michael

[Tom S.]

I think my answer fits better. Given fixed costs, etc., how would selling 50
gallons instead of 300 gallons be "unprofitable"? It's not like the "big
iron" is going to have to wait in line and then leave.

I've seen quite a few snotty FBO's when we were flying a Twin Commander 690.

Ego and the American work ethic.


"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
...
> More likely because its unprofitable.
>
> Mike
> MU-2
> > > See, that's what I don't understand: I've never been in an FBO that I
> > would
> > > describe as "busy." Why would they want to discourage our business?
> >
> > Ego.

[John Galban]

Jim Herring > wrote in message >...
> Peter Gottlieb wrote:
>
> > There might have been an unlocked front door but the only door to the ramp
> > (and my plane!) was definitely locked.
>
> In most places in the USA it's illegal for an exit door to be locked during
> business hours. Violates the fire code.

I've seen this quite a bit recently. Not to extract $$s from
pilots, but by order of the TSA on ramps that serve both GA and
commercial traffic. I don't think the TSA worries about fire codes.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Gary L. Drescher]

"John Galban" > wrote in message
om...
> Jim Herring > wrote in message
>...
> > Peter Gottlieb wrote:
> >
> > > There might have been an unlocked front door but the only door to the
ramp
> > > (and my plane!) was definitely locked.
> >
> > In most places in the USA it's illegal for an exit door to be locked
during
> > business hours. Violates the fire code.
>
> I've seen this quite a bit recently. Not to extract $$s from
> pilots, but by order of the TSA on ramps that serve both GA and
> commercial traffic. I don't think the TSA worries about fire codes.

Large airports have always locked passenger-terminal doors that open onto
the ramp. I doubt there's any fire-code violation, as long as they're not
marked as exit doors and as long as enough unlocked, marked exit doors
exist.

> John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Roger Halstead]

On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 21:17:42 -0500, Jim Herring >
wrote:

>Peter Gottlieb wrote:
>
>> There might have been an unlocked front door but the only door to the ramp
>> (and my plane!) was definitely locked.
>
>In most places in the USA it's illegal for an exit door to be locked during
>business hours. Violates the fire code.

True, but on all of the airports that have commercial traffic I think
you will find any door to the ram from the outside to be locked. I
know that all are at MBS and you need an escort to your plane.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

[Peter Gottlieb]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
...
> More likely because its unprofitable.
>


Perhaps unprofitable compared to the higher end of GA and based on the
number of "transactions," however, I do not believe the $22 fee maximizes
their income. A lower fee would result in enough extra volume to pull in
more revenue. My visit there cost them nothing at all as I used no
consumables.

[Tom S.]

"Roger Halstead" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 21:17:42 -0500, Jim Herring >
> wrote:
> >In most places in the USA it's illegal for an exit door to be locked
during
> >business hours. Violates the fire code.
>
> True, but on all of the airports that have commercial traffic I think
> you will find any door to the ram from the outside to be locked.

Locked, but with fire bars (will sound a fire alarm when unlatched).

[Peter Gottlieb]

"John Galban" > wrote in message
om...
>
> I've seen this quite a bit recently. Not to extract $$s from
> pilots, but by order of the TSA on ramps that serve both GA and
> commercial traffic. I don't think the TSA worries about fire codes.
>

Just like the Port Authority did not worry about fire codes in the twin
towers. As a governmental organization, compliance was voluntary and they
picked and chose what they wanted to and those towers did not meet NYC
codes.

[Roger Halstead]

On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 17:39:26 GMT, "Gary L. Drescher"
> wrote:

>"John Galban" > wrote in message
om...
>> Jim Herring > wrote in message
>...
>> > Peter Gottlieb wrote:
>> >
>> > > There might have been an unlocked front door but the only door to the
>ramp
>> > > (and my plane!) was definitely locked.
>> >
>> > In most places in the USA it's illegal for an exit door to be locked
>during
>> > business hours. Violates the fire code.
>>
>> I've seen this quite a bit recently. Not to extract $$s from
>> pilots, but by order of the TSA on ramps that serve both GA and
>> commercial traffic. I don't think the TSA worries about fire codes.
>
>Large airports have always locked passenger-terminal doors that open onto
>the ramp. I doubt there's any fire-code violation, as long as they're not
>marked as exit doors and as long as enough unlocked, marked exit doors
>exist.

I can name four airports that had airline traffic where I had always
been able to walk out onto the ramp prior to 9/11. LAN, MBS, TVC and
MKG. MBS was the least lenient with a combination door, but when you
taxied up you could walk any where on the ramp as long as you stayed
away from the terminal. At the other three airports you could walk up
to within about 50 feet of the airliners. They had a line pained on
the concrete with a warning sign. (Kinda like OSH used to be)

The last time I went to Muskegon was the day they were setting up
for the Muskegon Air Fair about 4 or 5 years ago. We flew a lady over
from GDW whose husband had won a trip on the B-24. They picked us up
at the transient parking, gave us a ride around the approach end of
the runway and let us out at the junction of the active runway and the
active taxiway.

BTW, we got to fly above, behind, and centered between the B-24 and
B-17. Man, what a view. The controller came on and apologized to
them, but said, "I know you want to drum up interest, but you guys
gotta get back up higher". I was the only one who was at or above
1000 AGL. (IE Legal) As I was flying along with them approach had me
snuggle up when we came in over town. I doubt I'll ever have another
view like that again.

Some where around here I have a photo of Joyce (my wife) waking down
the taxiway with an F-16 coming up behind her, with two A-10s behind
it and a Tornado behind the A-10s. She stepped off the taxiway to
get out of the F-16s way and I have a photo of her with fingers stuck
in ears about 6 feet off the left wing tip of the F-16. I have
another of her standing between the pipes on an F-14 that just shut
down. The pilot is just stepping off the ladder. I think I know where
that one is.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)
>
>> John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)
>

[Roger Halstead]

On Tue, 5 Aug 2003 21:54:25 -0700, "Tom S." > wrote:

>
>"Roger Halstead" > wrote in message
...
>> On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 21:17:42 -0500, Jim Herring >
>> wrote:
>> >In most places in the USA it's illegal for an exit door to be locked
>during
>> >business hours. Violates the fire code.
>>
>> True, but on all of the airports that have commercial traffic I think
>> you will find any door to the ram from the outside to be locked.
>
>Locked, but with fire bars (will sound a fire alarm when unlatched).
>
No firebars on the ones at the airport.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

[Tom S.]

"Roger Halstead" > wrote in message
...
>
> Like any service industry there are FBOs who think they are doing us a
> favor (and show it in their attitudes) by selling gas to the little
> guy, There are those who would like to get rid of "the little guy" so
> they could have the string of big corporate jets they think they'd
> have if the little guys weren't around, and there are those who
> realize that any one who buys from them is doing them a favor.

And there are some, like TAC Air at APA (Denver-Centennial) that give
excellent serivice to big birds and tweety birds alike. And APA is one BUSY
airport.

> I never said it made sense. <:-)) But I do know how some of them
> think after having spent most of my life (32 years plus 4 out for
> college) working for a large multinational corporation that's just
> down the road. Those last 6 years I got to do a fair amount of
> traveling and saw lots of different attitudes.

And that gives you an insight into why 95% fail in their first five to seven
years.

[Rosspilot]

I'll put Raytheon at Tampa Int'l at the top of the list for treating me and my
little Skyhawk like we're special. Never been treated better at any FBO
anywhere.

www.Rosspilot.com