Re: Handhelds and alkaline batteries

[Ross Richardson]

I have an Icom transceiver and have no problems with batteries. I too
use the alkaline batteries.

Ross

Ross Oliver wrote:
>
> I recently purchased an Icom A23 Sport handheld transceiver, which
> uses 6 AA alkaline batteries rather than the rechargable NiCad.
> I chose the Sport model because I plan to use it primarily as an
> emergency backup, the alkalines will hold a charge much longer than
> the NiCads. The radio receives great, but it will not transmit
> at all. Even with brand new name-brand batteries, the "low battery"
> warning comes on as soon as I key the PTT, and the transmission is
> so badly clipped that it is unreadable. I'm guessing that the alkalines
> simply cannot provide enough current to adequately power the transmitter.
>
> Has anyone else tried transmitting using a handheld powered by alkalines,
> either the A23 or any of the other brands? I'm thinking about trying the
> Sporty's model next. It uses 8 AA rather than the A23's 6.
>
> Ross Oliver

[Larry Fransson]

In article >,
(Ross Oliver) wrote:

> Has anyone else tried transmitting using a handheld powered by alkalines,
> either the A23 or any of the other brands?

My King KX-99 works fine on alkaline batteries.

--
Larry Fransson
Aviation software for Mac OS X!
http://www.subcritical.com

[Richard Russell]

On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 16:28:27 GMT, (Ross
Oliver) wrote:

>
>I recently purchased an Icom A23 Sport handheld transceiver, which
>uses 6 AA alkaline batteries rather than the rechargable NiCad.
>I chose the Sport model because I plan to use it primarily as an
>emergency backup, the alkalines will hold a charge much longer than
>the NiCads. The radio receives great, but it will not transmit
>at all. Even with brand new name-brand batteries, the "low battery"
>warning comes on as soon as I key the PTT, and the transmission is
>so badly clipped that it is unreadable. I'm guessing that the alkalines
>simply cannot provide enough current to adequately power the transmitter.
>
>Has anyone else tried transmitting using a handheld powered by alkalines,
>either the A23 or any of the other brands? I'm thinking about trying the
>Sporty's model next. It uses 8 AA rather than the A23's 6.
>
>
>Ross Oliver

I have a new Icom A-5 and I have also experienced an immediate low
battery warning with the optional alkaline battery pack installed. I
have also had difficulty charging the rechargeable battery. It has
been taking an average of three attempts to get a charge on the
battery. Every time I think that I've had enough and should send it
back, it charges and I forget about it until it needs a charge again.
I'm not sure what I'm going to do, but I'm not happy with it. I
haven't even tried to transmit yet.

Rich Russell

[Jim Weir]

Alkalines have a problem when you get to the power levels we are talking about
for transmit. They last a mercifully short time in most HTs. We've found that
popping for the NiMH cells is far better from a time and life point of view.

Try www.thomasdistributing.com Probably the best price in the country.

Jim



"Greg Burkhart" >
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

->"Ross Oliver" > wrote in message
...
->> Has anyone else tried transmitting using a handheld powered by alkalines,
->> either the A23 or any of the other brands? I'm thinking about trying the
->> Sporty's model next. It uses 8 AA rather than the A23's 6.
->
->I don't have direct experience with the Icom radios, but I was with Jay
->Honeck when he picked up his A5 at OSH. The dealer mentioned when using
->alkalines in the Icom, don't use Duracell brand. He said there was a
->'compatibility' problem when using that brand for some reason. Jay picked up
->a set of industrial Energizers and used his new handheld for a few days
->without any problems.
->
->Jay, any problems with either new radio or the other goodies?
->

Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[SFM]

I have had a JRC and I have the new Vertex. Both work great on alkaline

--
-------------------------------------
Scott F. Migaldi, K9PO
IDCS-150972
PP-ASEL
<center>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PADI-Instructors/join

**"A long time ago being crazy meant something, nowadays everyone is
crazy" -- Charles Manson**
-------------------------------------
"Ross Oliver" > wrote in message
...
>
> I recently purchased an Icom A23 Sport handheld transceiver, which
> uses 6 AA alkaline batteries rather than the rechargable NiCad.
> I chose the Sport model because I plan to use it primarily as an
> emergency backup, the alkalines will hold a charge much longer than
> the NiCads. The radio receives great, but it will not transmit
> at all. Even with brand new name-brand batteries, the "low battery"
> warning comes on as soon as I key the PTT, and the transmission is
> so badly clipped that it is unreadable. I'm guessing that the alkalines
> simply cannot provide enough current to adequately power the transmitter.
>
> Has anyone else tried transmitting using a handheld powered by alkalines,
> either the A23 or any of the other brands? I'm thinking about trying the
> Sporty's model next. It uses 8 AA rather than the A23's 6.
>
>
> Ross Oliver

[JerryK]

I use alkaline batteries in my A22. They have worked for over a year or
so. But I only use to get clearances and check ATIS without powering up the
plane.

jerry

> Has anyone else tried transmitting using a handheld powered by alkalines,
> either the A23 or any of the other brands? I'm thinking about trying the
> Sporty's model next. It uses 8 AA rather than the A23's 6.
>
>
> Ross Oliver

[Greg Burkhart]

I don't own Energizer (ENR) or Duracell (G) stock and I don't think Jay does
either. We just stopped by the closest battery booth and that's what was
readily available for alkalines.

"mike regish" > wrote in message
news:UOcYa.54566$cF.19421@rwcrnsc53...
> Bet he owns stock in Energizer...
>
> I use Duracell in everything. (And no, I don't own any stock)
>
> mike regish
>
>
> "Greg Burkhart" > wrote in message
> news:YocYa.81797$o%2.37792@sccrnsc02...
> > "Ross Oliver" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Has anyone else tried transmitting using a handheld powered by
> alkalines,
> > > either the A23 or any of the other brands? I'm thinking about trying
> the
> > > Sporty's model next. It uses 8 AA rather than the A23's 6.
> >
> > I don't have direct experience with the Icom radios, but I was with Jay
> > Honeck when he picked up his A5 at OSH. The dealer mentioned when using
> > alkalines in the Icom, don't use Duracell brand. He said there was a
> > 'compatibility' problem when using that brand for some reason. Jay
picked
> up
> > a set of industrial Energizers and used his new handheld for a few days
> > without any problems.

[Chris W]

Jim Weir wrote:

> Alkalines have a problem when you get to the power levels we are talking about
> for transmit. They last a mercifully short time in most HTs. We've found that
> popping for the NiMH cells is far better from a time and life point of view.

For an emergency only radio, NiMH are about the worst battery to use. They have a
self discharge rate of 10% per day. The Lithium Ions are the next best then
NiCd. Of course the self discharge rate of alkaline batteries are a lot better
than any of the rechargeable but they don't do well with high current loads that
some electronic equipment need. The non rechargeable Lithium batteries are the
best in that regard, they last a long time, lowest self discharge rate of any
battery and they can take the high current loads, the only down side is they are
expensive, especially if you go to the corner drug store where they some times will
charge $8 or more each, if you look around on the internet you can get them for
less than $2 each. Of course that doesn't do much good if your radio doesn't have
a pack that will take the CR123 lithium batteries.


--
Chris Woodhouse
Oklahoma City

"They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania

[Jim Weir]

See? Already I'm thinking like a politician. Normally, I would have said,
"Bull$#it", but instead I'm saying, "Isn't that an interesting untruth."

{;-)


Jim


Chris W >
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:


->
->For an emergency only radio, NiMH are about the worst battery to use. They
have a
->self discharge rate of 10% per day.
Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Chris W]

Jim Weir wrote:

> See? Already I'm thinking like a politician. Normally, I would have said,
> "Bull$#it", but instead I'm saying, "Isn't that an interesting untruth."

Looks like I was wrong NiMH batteries have an even worse self discharge rate than
I had remembered and NiCd are next and then the Lithium Ion

http://www.allegromicro.com/techpub2/cadex/index32.htm


--
Chris Woodhouse
Oklahoma City

"They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania

[MichaelR]

I have an old (12 years) Sporty's A300 that uses 6 cells, and now I have the
new model with 8 cells. It runs a lot longer.

I think it is more a voltage issue rather than a current issue, but 33% more
batteries makes the radio last more than 200% longer.



"Ross Oliver" > wrote in message
...
>
> I recently purchased an Icom A23 Sport handheld transceiver, which
> uses 6 AA alkaline batteries rather than the rechargable NiCad.
> I chose the Sport model because I plan to use it primarily as an
> emergency backup, the alkalines will hold a charge much longer than
> the NiCads. The radio receives great, but it will not transmit
> at all. Even with brand new name-brand batteries, the "low battery"
> warning comes on as soon as I key the PTT, and the transmission is
> so badly clipped that it is unreadable. I'm guessing that the alkalines
> simply cannot provide enough current to adequately power the transmitter.
>
> Has anyone else tried transmitting using a handheld powered by alkalines,
> either the A23 or any of the other brands? I'm thinking about trying the
> Sporty's model next. It uses 8 AA rather than the A23's 6.
>
>
> Ross Oliver

[BTIZ]

my ICOM A-22 has a battery pack that holds 10 AA batteries, and no problems,
lasts about a 5 hr day of soaring. I use a 1500mAh NiMH pack and carry the
AA battery pack as a back-up when I forget to charge the NiMH.

The NiMH will last for days..

BT

"Ross Oliver" > wrote in message
...
>
> I recently purchased an Icom A23 Sport handheld transceiver, which
> uses 6 AA alkaline batteries rather than the rechargable NiCad.
> I chose the Sport model because I plan to use it primarily as an
> emergency backup, the alkalines will hold a charge much longer than
> the NiCads. The radio receives great, but it will not transmit
> at all. Even with brand new name-brand batteries, the "low battery"
> warning comes on as soon as I key the PTT, and the transmission is
> so badly clipped that it is unreadable. I'm guessing that the alkalines
> simply cannot provide enough current to adequately power the transmitter.
>
> Has anyone else tried transmitting using a handheld powered by alkalines,
> either the A23 or any of the other brands? I'm thinking about trying the
> Sporty's model next. It uses 8 AA rather than the A23's 6.
>
>
> Ross Oliver

[Morgans]

"Jim Weir" > wrote
>
> Try www.thomasdistributing.com Probably the best price in the country.
>
> Jim

How about the "quest" brand at walmart? Less than 9 bucks for 4 1500mah
AA's. Can they beat that?

--
---Jim in NC---

[Morgans]

"Chris W" > wrote in message
...
> Jim Weir wrote:
>
> > Alkalines have a problem when you get to the power levels we are talking
about
> > for transmit. They last a mercifully short time in most HTs. We've
found that
> > popping for the NiMH cells is far better from a time and life point of
view.
>
> For an emergency only radio, NiMH are about the worst battery to use.
They have a
> self discharge rate of 10% per day. The Lithium Ions are the next best
then
> NiCd. Of course the self discharge rate of alkaline batteries are a lot
better
> than any of the rechargeable but they don't do well with high current
loads that
> some electronic equipment need. The non rechargeable Lithium batteries
are the
> best in that regard, they last a long time, lowest self discharge rate of
any
> battery and they can take the high current loads, the only down side is
they are
> expensive, especially if you go to the corner drug store where they some
times will
> charge $8 or more each, if you look around on the internet you can get
them for
> less than $2 each. Of course that doesn't do much good if your radio
doesn't have
> a pack that will take the CR123 lithium batteries.
>
>
> --
> Chris Woodhouse
> Oklahoma City
>
> "They that can give up essential liberty
> to obtain a little temporary safety

Chris, can you quote a source on the 10% discharge per day on the NiMH? I
have not found that to be the case.
--
---Jim in NC---

[Chris W]

Morgans wrote:

> Chris, can you quote a source on the 10% discharge per day on the NiMH? I
> have not found that to be the case.
> --
> ---Jim in NC---

http://www.allegromicro.com/techpub2/cadex/index32.htm

apperently I didn't remember the details exactly right but the fact that NiMH
have a very bad self discharge rate is true. In fact rechargable batteries as a
group have a self discharge rate that is a lot worse than most non rechargable
batteries.

--
Chris Woodhouse
Oklahoma City

"They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania

[Jay Honeck]

> I don't own Energizer (ENR) or Duracell (G) stock and I don't think Jay
does
> either. We just stopped by the closest battery booth and that's what was
> readily available for alkalines.

Yeah -- for some bizarre reason, the guy who sold me the ICOM said that
Duracell brand alkaline batteries were just a tad too long to fit in the
ICOM battery box properly.

I haven't measured them with a micrometer (yet!), but it sure sounded goofy
to Greg and me. Nevertheless, I didn't risk it and bought some "Brand X"
alkaline batteries from the next "Batteries Plus"-kinda place we ran across.
Even *those* batteries fit quite tightly -- but they work just fine.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Jay, any problems with either new radio or the other goodies?

Nope. The ICOM A5 works as advertised, and is WAY better than my old (and
ten-times bigger) ICOM A21. I can clearly and easily receive Iowa City
AWOS from my home with this thing -- something that was very scratchy and
intermittent with the old model.

And the new NARCO 810R -- the slide-in replacement for our old NARCO 120
com -- has been truly wonderful. Once we located the proper sized allen
wrench (thanks again, Greg -- I've still got your wrench set!), it literally
slid right into the tray where the 120 used to live -- and has worked
perfectly ever since.

It's digital, transmissions are crystal clear, it's flip-flop, and -- best
of all -- it's got 10 memory pre-sets that I can actually access in flight!
(Unlike our old TKM MX170B, that required an awkward simultaneous
2-button-push that was virtually impossible in even light turbulence.)

And the AvMap continues to just blow us away. We just got back from a
flight over to Pella (a neat old-world Dutch settlement) with the kids, and
we just couldn't stop raving about it. What an amazing tool this thing is!
:)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[David Johnson]

Most likely your problem is poor contact somewhere in the battery/holder/
power switch series string. The radio gets enough current to receive OK,
but the heavy draw of transmitting causes the voltage to drop to the point
that the radio will no longer operate. Try a different set of batteries
(only one bad one will cause the problem), and make sure that all are
seated properly in the holder and that the contacts apply firm pressure
against the terminals. A bad power switch can cause the same symptoms.

I have used my Icom A2 with an aftermarket AA battery pack for years with
good results. Always carry a spare set of cells. They will keep for several
years.

Nicads are fine but you must exercise them. The right way to treat a Nicad
is to run it down then charge it up ASAP - at least once a week, and
preferably daily. Letting it sit for months will kill it, as will leaving
it on the charger all the time.

[Neal]

On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 18:05:01 GMT, Larry Fransson
> wrote:

>In article >,
> (Ross Oliver) wrote:
>
>> Has anyone else tried transmitting using a handheld powered by alkalines,
>> either the A23 or any of the other brands?
>
>My King KX-99 works fine on alkaline batteries.

ditto for my KX-99

[James M. Knox]

Jim Weir > wrote in
:

> Alkalines have a problem when you get to the power levels we are
> talking about for transmit. They last a mercifully short time in most
> HTs. We've found that popping for the NiMH cells is far better from a
> time and life point of view.

The trouble with NiMH in a handheld used for emergencies (i.e. toss it
into the flight bag and forget it) is the HORRIBLE self-discharge rate.
Basically you need to recharge then every couple of months - especially
if they are kept in a warm environment. [Worst case self-discharge rate
is listed at 3% per day!!! NiCad is almost as bad, at 1% per day.
Note that both of these are WORST CASE.]

Alkalines are great at shelf life, but as Jim (furture govenor) says,
they may not support the current draw during transmit.

Two possible tests:

1. Put a scope directly on the battery pack during transmit - if you can
see the modulation (or any significant change), that's the problem.

2. If the result of step 1 is that you actually see the modulation (as
opposed to the overall voltage simply dropping too low) then it might be
possible to rig a super-cap across the battery.

What's the transmit power of that little handheld supposed to be anyway?

-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331
Austin, Tx 78721
-----------------------------------------------

[Jay Honeck]

> What's the transmit power of that little handheld supposed to be anyway?

My ICOM supposedly puts out 5 watts peak.

So what's the battery solution here? Is there a battery that can (a) handle
the output and (b) not discharge while sitting in the seat pocket?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Me? I carry my handheld in my chart bag and just put the little rascals
into
> the charger once a month or so. Haven't had a failure yet and I've been
using
> them for 5 or 6 years. BTW, haven't replaced one in 5 or 6 years, either,
and
> they still seem to have about the same battery life as when they were new.

Thanks for the primer, Jim.

Hopefully I'll never need to test them again, but our old hand-held sure
came in handy when we had a complete com failure flying into Minneapolis one
night in an ancient Apache...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[john smith]

"James M. Knox" wrote:
> What's the transmit power of that little handheld supposed to be anyway?

The answer to that is, it depends on the battery pack the transmitter is
drawing from.
The more cells (volts and milli-amp-hours), the more power (up to a
limit).
For the old ICOM A2 and A20, I have a choice of five or six different
battery packs, each providing a different power output and
transmit/receive time.

[Chris W]

Jim Weir wrote:

> Without going into a long song and dance, 5 watts peak is what most of us call a
> watt-and-a-half (CW, RMS, or any other way of saying it). Figuring that a
> transmitter (overall, from synthesizer to finals) is 50% efficient, that means
> you are sucking 3 watts during transmit. If the ICOM uses 4 cells, this means
> that the batteries have to put out 500 mA (half an amp) during transmit. This
> is pushing the limits on AA cells (see later).

According to Duracell's data sheets, Their AA Ultra battery will still be putting
out 1.2V after 1 hour at a 500 mA load and 1.1 V after 2 hours. One hour of
transmitting adds up to a lot of hours of flying.

> Disregarding the scare tactics of somebody who doesn't know what they are
> talking about, current state of the art NiMH batteries are by far the optimum
> solution for handheld transceivers.

If you are using that transceiver every day or two or even once a week, I would
agree. For something that is used only occasionally or just for emergencies,
rechargeable batteries are a bad choice.


> Yes, the self-discharge is about 30% a
> **MONTH**, so if you don't go flying for a month, the batteries are down to 70%
> the next time you go to the airplane. Big flippin' deal.

So I got the details wrong, "big flippin' deal". The fact still remains that NiMH
batteries have the worst (highest) self discharge rate of any of the commonly used
battery chemistries. You didn't get all the details right either, I looked them up
again. NiMH batteries loose 15 to 20% of their capacity in the first 24 hours
after charging and then 15 to 20% more per month. You may find this acceptable for
emergency equipment, but I don't. Put in Alkaline or non rechargeable Lithiums and
you can forget about it for 2 to 5 YEARS, that's a lot better than having to
remember to charge it every month or two.


> You can now get AA NiMH cells (http://www.thomas-distributing.com/batteries.htm)
> with 2200 mAh ratings, which should be good for six months, even WITH
> self-discharge. You can also go the thomas FAQ page for the truth about
> self-discharge instead of listening to a ranting from somebody who didn't do
> their homework.
>
> The nice part about both NiMH and nicad are that you can draw AMPS from them
> without getting into internal resistance effects. They will put out five to ten
> times the short-circuit current than will a regular alkaline cell.
>
> NiMH don't have "memory" (nicads, more or less, still have some memory), which
> means that if you don't completely discharge them before charging them, they
> "remember" the level at which they were discharged and won't go any lower. NiMH
> do not exhibit this effect. NiMH also have many more charge-discharge cycles
> than do nicads.

Who's not doing their home work now? According your source, NiMH batteries are good
for 250 to 500
cycles and NiCd are good for 500 to 1,000 cycles. While NiMH have a significantly
lower tendency to develop memory that the old NiCds were so bad about, they still do
(according to most of the material I have read) have a slight tendency to developing
a memory. Even your source recommends periodic conditioning of NiMH, why would you
need to if they didn't have any memory tendency?

Did you even read the source I posted? Here is another one.

http://www.cadex.com/b_02_2_0_nickel.asp


--
Chris Woodhouse
Oklahoma City

"They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania

[Chris W]

Casey Wilson wrote:

> Quote all the 'documents' you want -- my real-life experience proves to
> me that NiMH are by far superior to alkaline batteries.

That's like saying aluminum is far superior to steel. In reality it depends on
the situation.


> Expensive, yes.
> Worth it, you bet! They're what will go in my handheld and I'm willing to
> trust my family's safety to them.

I'm not trying to say NiMH are worthless. In fact in the situations you
describe they are an excellent choice. However for something that is only used
briefly at very rare intervals, such as a hand held Tx that is carried for the
sole purpose of back up for when the panel radio dies, non rechargeable
batteries are the way to go. Stick them in the radio today, and 18 months from
now when I need it, I can be confident that they are still going to work.

As a side note; when it comes to rechargeable batteries, I don't know why every
one dismisses NiCd's so quickly. In many applications I think they are arguably
as well suited as NiMH. They are cheaper, have a greater number of cycles
before they die, and the memory effect which is no longer as bad as some would
have you believe, is rather easily managed with the right charger and by using 2
battery packs.


--
Chris Woodhouse
Oklahoma City

"They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania

[Squirrel]

Chris W > wrote in message >...
> Morgans wrote:
>
> > Chris, can you quote a source on the 10% discharge per day on the NiMH? I
> > have not found that to be the case.
> > --
> > ---Jim in NC---
>
> http://www.allegromicro.com/techpub2/cadex/index32.htm
>
> apperently I didn't remember the details exactly right but the fact that NiMH
> have a very bad self discharge rate is true. In fact rechargable batteries as a
> group have a self discharge rate that is a lot worse than most non rechargable
> batteries.

From the link you supplied:

"Self-discharge: Both NiMH and NiCd are affected by reasonably high
self-discharge . The NiCd loses about 10% of its capacity within the
first 24 hours, after which the self-discharge settles to about 10%
per month. The self-discharge of the NiMH is one-and-a-half to two
times higher than that of the NiCd. Selecting hydride materials that
improve hydrogen bonding to reduce self-discharge typically also
decrease the battery capacity."

So it's more like 10% for the FIRST day, then 10% per MONTH
thereafter.

SM

[Casey Wilson]

"Chris W" > wrote in message
...
> Casey Wilson wrote:
>
> > Quote all the 'documents' you want -- my real-life experience proves
to
> > me that NiMH are by far superior to alkaline batteries.
>
> That's like saying aluminum is far superior to steel. In reality it
depends on
> the situation.

No, your metaphor doesn't work. We are talking about batteries.

> I'm not trying to say NiMH are worthless. In fact in the situations you
> describe they are an excellent choice. However for something that is only
used
> briefly at very rare intervals, such as a hand held Tx that is carried for
the
> sole purpose of back up for when the panel radio dies, non rechargeable
> batteries are the way to go. Stick them in the radio today, and 18 months
from
> now when I need it, I can be confident that they are still going to work.

I think part of the trip planning check list should include checking
the spare (read emergency) radio. Particularly if it is an item you might
want to depend on in a critical situation. Stashing it somewhere for months
doesn't seem like a safe idea.
I plan on using mine every time I go flying. Like, listening to ATIS or
calling ground before cranking the engine. Seems to me that would save some
time on the Hobbs.

> As a side note; when it comes to rechargeable batteries, I don't know why
every
> one dismisses NiCd's so quickly. In many applications I think they are
arguably
> as well suited as NiMH. They are cheaper, have a greater number of cycles
> before they die, and the memory effect which is no longer as bad as some
would
> have you believe, is rather easily managed with the right charger and by
using 2
> battery packs.

My post was aimed at alkaline batteries. But since you mentioned them,
my personal experience with NiMH versus NiCad is pretty much the same. NiCad
batteries have not lived up to the heavy power drain of my camera. I don't
expect them to work any differently in a handheld Xceiver.
I used to use NiCad in my RC equipment. Same thing. Memory effect
aside, NiCads just have not performed as well as NiMH. Also, I've tossed a
lot of NiCad batteries that went kaput before NiMH went on the market. I'm
still using every NiMH I've ever bought. No, I take that back.... a thief
stole a camera bag along with eight batteries last month. I did replace
those.
Maybe my experience is enigmatic. Do what feels good for you. I don't
condemn you or NiCads.

Regards,

Casey

[Chris W]

Squirrel wrote:

> > http://www.allegromicro.com/techpub2/cadex/index32.htm
>
> From the link you supplied:
>
> "Self-discharge: Both NiMH and NiCd are affected by reasonably high
> self-discharge . The NiCd loses about 10% of its capacity within the
> first 24 hours, after which the self-discharge settles to about 10%
> per month. The self-discharge of the NiMH is one-and-a-half to two
> times higher than that of the NiCd. Selecting hydride materials that
> improve hydrogen bonding to reduce self-discharge typically also
> decrease the battery capacity."
>
> So it's more like 10% for the FIRST day, then 10% per MONTH
> thereafter.

For NiCd that is right, but is also says up there in the section you quote that NiMH
has 1.5 to 2 times higher self-discharge than NiCd so 15-20% the first 24 hours and
15-20% per Month after that.


--
Chris Woodhouse

"They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania

[Chris W]

Casey Wilson wrote:

> "Chris W" > wrote in message
> > That's like saying aluminum is far superior to steel. In reality it
> > depends on the situation.
>
> No, your metaphor doesn't work. We are talking about batteries.

I think my analogy is just fine. There are times when aluminum fits the
application best and times when steel is a better choice. With batteries there
are times when rechargeable are handy to use and times when non rechargeable are
a better choice. I don't see how you can disagree with that when you consider
this situation? The battery in my watch went for almost 4 years before I had to
change it, would you use a rechargeable in that watch if you could? Of course
not, it would discharge its self faster than the watch discharged it. There is
room to disagree on where the line of when to use rechargeables vs non
rechargeables is, but the line does exist.

> I think part of the trip planning check list should include checking
> the spare (read emergency) radio. Particularly if it is an item you might
> want to depend on in a critical situation.

If I was going on a long XC I probably would do that, but for short flights of
an hour or so I doubt many people would go to the bother, I wouldn't.


> Stashing it somewhere for months
> doesn't seem like a safe idea.
> I plan on using mine every time I go flying. Like, listening to ATIS or
> calling ground before cranking the engine. Seems to me that would save some
> time on the Hobbs.

From the perspective of flying my own home built, I wouldn't be doing that.
However if you do and the battery life of alkaline is short enough that you need
to replace them every 2 or 3 trips then I can see using rechargeables. I don't
know how long they would last in that situation, I would check first.


> My post was aimed at alkaline batteries. But since you mentioned them,
> my personal experience with NiMH versus NiCad is pretty much the same. NiCad
> batteries have not lived up to the heavy power drain of my camera. I don't
> expect them to work any differently in a handheld Xceiver.
> I used to use NiCad in my RC equipment. Same thing. Memory effect
> aside, NiCads just have not performed as well as NiMH. Also, I've tossed a
> lot of NiCad batteries that went kaput before NiMH went on the market. I'm
> still using every NiMH I've ever bought. No, I take that back.... a thief
> stole a camera bag along with eight batteries last month. I did replace
> those.
> Maybe my experience is enigmatic. Do what feels good for you. I don't
> condemn you or NiCads.

I've never had any problems with NiCd when I was doing RC, One thing that is a
problem is using a battery pack with enough capacity. Generally a pack with
twice the capacity will last a lot more than twice as long because the current
drain is a lower percentage of the batteries ratting. Since NiMH batteries
normally have more capacity than a NiCd of the same size that may be why the
NiMH were working so much better for you. If you could use a larger NiCd
battery I think you would find they work about as well as the NiMH. I think
that designers of electronic equipment, in an effort to design as small as
possible, often use a battery that is too small for the load requirements, in a
case like that if you put NiMH batteries than generally have the higher capacity
for the same size battery you are going to see a big improvement because the
NiMH is sized more appropriately for the load. I am having that exact problem
with a cordless phone right now. It comes with a 850 mAh NiCd and it goes dead
every time you turn around. If you replace it with the alternate 1200 mAh NiMH
the battery life is very good. If I could fit a 1200 mAh NiCd in the phone I am
sure it would do just fine as long as the memory problem was managed.


--
Chris Woodhouse
Oklahoma City


"They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania

[Cub Driver]

>Has anyone else tried transmitting using a handheld powered by alkalines,
>either the A23 or any of the other brands? I'm thinking about trying the
>Sporty's model next. It uses 8 AA rather than the A23's 6.

I use my handheld as sole radio, so the rechargable batt is far better
for me. That was a major reason I sold the Sporty's--the batts cost
too much and throwing them away embarrassed me in front of my very
green daughter.

I never had a problem with the Sporty's such as you describe. It's
true with all handhelds that they will receive long after they fail to
transmit. If anything, my feeling is that the aky batts ought to be
better when new than the ni-cads (whatever).

I like my present (Yaseu) handheld much better than the Sporty's, for
what it's worth. Can't you get an alky adapter for your present kit?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Dennis O'Connor]

I had to quit using NiMh in my GPS units because they self discharge too
rapidly... WIth the NiMh I was having to recharge the batteries every
couple of weeks...Went back to NiCd and am happier, however when the current
set of NiCd's goes I am going back to alkaline... The GPS units run off ship
power excpet for maybe 30 seconds when I shut down after a flight, from the
time I snap the master off to the time I turn the two GPS off.. The AA
batteries are there for back up if I lose both generators and the airplane
battery...

Denny
"Casey Wilson" > wrote in message
...
> > >So what's the battery solution here?

[Jay Honeck]

> I think my analogy is just fine.

I think the real question here is this: Why does Casey put up with owning a
camera that uses an entire set of alkaline batteries to take just ten
pictures?!
:-)

But seriously, thanks for the answers guys.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Casey Wilson]

> I think the real question here is this: Why does Casey put up with owning
a
> camera that uses an entire set of alkaline batteries to take just ten
> pictures?!
> :-)

My wife thinks the shoulder strap is really cool.

Casey

[Greg Burkhart]

I just found some AA Duracell Ni-MH 1,800mah for $0.89 each through
MCM/Newark, if anyone is interested...
http://mcm.newark.com/NewarkWebCommerce/mcm/en_US/support/catalog/productDetail.jsp?id=58-7740

I still don't own stock in Gillette (Duracell) or Premier Farnell
(MCM/Newark)...

"mike regish" > wrote in message
news:UOcYa.54566$cF.19421@rwcrnsc53...
> Bet he owns stock in Energizer...
>
> I use Duracell in everything. (And no, I don't own any stock)
>
> mike regish

[TripFarmer]

I've always used disposable AA's but am thinking about getting rechargable
Nicads and a 2 hour recharger (instead of overnight). It's about $30 vs $20
for the slower recharger. Comes with 4 AA's.

Any brand suggestions or thoughts? Good idea? Bad idea?

I have bought the e2 batteries and they really last a long time but think I'll
do better with the rechargable ones.

Thanks in advance.


Trip



In article >,
says...
>
>On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 18:05:01 GMT, Larry Fransson
> wrote:
>
>>In article >,
>> (Ross Oliver) wrote:
>>
>>> Has anyone else tried transmitting using a handheld powered by alkalines,
>>> either the A23 or any of the other brands?
>>
>>My King KX-99 works fine on alkaline batteries.
>
>ditto for my KX-99
>

[Ron Natalie]

"TripFarmer" > wrote in message ...
> I've always used disposable AA's but am thinking about getting rechargable
> Nicads and a 2 hour recharger (instead of overnight). It's about $30 vs $20
> for the slower recharger. Comes with 4 AA's.
>
> Any brand suggestions or thoughts? Good idea? Bad idea?
>

Nicads have much less charge capacity and the annoying feature of self discharging
(especially in hot environments like locked up in the aircraft). That being said, if you
use NiCads you should always keep a pack with alkalines in it for emergencies. I can
tell you the story of coming back into Dulles NORDO because the NiCad's were dead in
the handheld.

[Ross Oliver]

On 8 Aug 2003 18:35:52 GMT, TripFarmer > wrote:
>I've always used disposable AA's but am thinking about getting rechargable
>Nicads and a 2 hour recharger (instead of overnight). It's about $30 vs $20
>for the slower recharger. Comes with 4 AA's.
>
>Any brand suggestions or thoughts? Good idea? Bad idea?


Problem with using AA rechargables is you can't charge the AA's while
installed in the radio. You have to remove the batteries from
the radio, put them in the charger, then reassemble to be ready to use.
To combat self-discharge, you will have to do this frequently. This is
enough of a hassle that I would probably neglect to do it, and end up
carrying around $400 worth of ballast in my flight bag.

This becomes even more of a hassle if you go on trips of any length,
because you have to haul that bulky AA charger around with you.
And you will want the 8-cell charger rather than the 4-cell, so you
can charge a full set at once rather than half-and-half.

If I were to choose rechargable, I would use the battery built for the
radio so I could simply plug it into the trickle charger whenever
it is not in use.

[John Galban]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message >...
> Nicads have much less charge capacity and the annoying feature of self discharging
> (especially in hot environments like locked up in the aircraft). That being said, if you
> use NiCads you should always keep a pack with alkalines in it for emergencies. I can
> tell you the story of coming back into Dulles NORDO because the NiCad's were dead in
> the handheld.

I can relate. I can tell you story of going NORDO at liftoff from
PHX because the NiCad died. A few weeks later I had an alkaline
battery pack for my KX-99. Haven't used a NiCad since.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Robert Henry]

"Ross Oliver" > wrote in message
...
>
> I recently purchased an Icom A23 Sport handheld transceiver, which
>

I just purchased one also. I registered it and sent in the rebate form last
week. I got the $50 rebate check in the mail today. Wow!

Of course, I thought I was getting a headset adapter, but I'm not
complaining.

Bob

[Robert Henry]

Thank you for the information, Greg! I'll report back how they work in the
A23.

"Greg Burkhart" > wrote in message
news:t_QYa.98954$YN5.69098@sccrnsc01...
> I just found some AA Duracell Ni-MH 1,800mah for $0.89 each through
> MCM/Newark, if anyone is interested...
>
http://mcm.newark.com/NewarkWebCommerce/mcm/en_US/support/catalog/productDet
ail.jsp?id=58-7740
>
> I still don't own stock in Gillette (Duracell) or Premier Farnell
> (MCM/Newark)...
>
> "mike regish" > wrote in message
> news:UOcYa.54566$cF.19421@rwcrnsc53...
> > Bet he owns stock in Energizer...
> >
> > I use Duracell in everything. (And no, I don't own any stock)
> >
> > mike regish
>
>

[Peter Gottlieb]

If you're going to go through the trouble of getting rechargeable AA cells
for the A23, why not just get the old pack rebuilt with NiMH cells?

I was thinking of getting the 1.5 Volt Lithium AA cells for keeping in the
AA pack since they have a 10 year shelf life.


"Robert Henry" > wrote in message
news:8eaZa.32628$5f.18336@lakeread05...
> Thank you for the information, Greg! I'll report back how they work in the
> A23.
>
> "Greg Burkhart" > wrote in message
> news:t_QYa.98954$YN5.69098@sccrnsc01...
> > I just found some AA Duracell Ni-MH 1,800mah for $0.89 each through
> > MCM/Newark, if anyone is interested...
> >
>
http://mcm.newark.com/NewarkWebCommerce/mcm/en_US/support/catalog/productDet
> ail.jsp?id=58-7740
> >
> > I still don't own stock in Gillette (Duracell) or Premier Farnell
> > (MCM/Newark)...
> >
> > "mike regish" > wrote in message
> > news:UOcYa.54566$cF.19421@rwcrnsc53...
> > > Bet he owns stock in Energizer...
> > >
> > > I use Duracell in everything. (And no, I don't own any stock)
> > >
> > > mike regish
> >
> >
>
>

[Chris W]

Peter Gottlieb wrote:

> If you're going to go through the trouble of getting rechargeable AA cells
> for the A23, why not just get the old pack rebuilt with NiMH cells?
>
> I was thinking of getting the 1.5 Volt Lithium AA cells for keeping in the
> AA pack since they have a 10 year shelf life.

I didn't know you could get 1.5 Volt lithium AA cells, I thought they only came
in 3.6 volts. Where can I find the 1.5 Volt cells


--
Chris Woodhouse


"They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania

[Peter Gottlieb]

Lots of places have them now, Google them to find a decent price. Here is
one place:

http://www.nimhbattery.com/enr-l91bp-4.htm


"Chris W" > wrote in message
...
> Peter Gottlieb wrote:
>
> > If you're going to go through the trouble of getting rechargeable AA
cells
> > for the A23, why not just get the old pack rebuilt with NiMH cells?
> >
> > I was thinking of getting the 1.5 Volt Lithium AA cells for keeping in
the
> > AA pack since they have a 10 year shelf life.
>
> I didn't know you could get 1.5 Volt lithium AA cells, I thought they only
came
> in 3.6 volts. Where can I find the 1.5 Volt cells
>
>
> --
> Chris Woodhouse
>
>
> "They that can give up essential liberty
> to obtain a little temporary safety
> deserve neither liberty nor safety."
> -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania
>
>

[RM]

> Yeah -- for some bizarre reason, the guy who sold me the ICOM said that
> Duracell brand alkaline batteries were just a tad too long to fit in the
> ICOM battery box properly.
>


Here's what Icom wrote to me after I asked them about this issue.

> Thank you for contacting ICOM Technical Support.

> This is normal for this unit. The nicad battery pack gives a higher
> voltage.

And here's what I originally wrote to them:

>> I recently purchased an Icom A5 Sport radio. It seems to generally
>> work, but the low battery indicator stays on all the time and
>> flashes indicating a severely depleted battery when I transmit.

>> I have installed new batteries and it still does this.

>> Is this considered normal?

[Robert Henry]

"Peter Gottlieb" > wrote in message
et...
> If you're going to go through the trouble of getting rechargeable AA cells
> for the A23, why not just get the old pack rebuilt with NiMH cells?
>

I have the A23 sport, so I have none of the accessories needed. I do have a
NiMH cell battery charger.

So, for casual use applications here and there I can load up the NiMHs and
not worry about eating batteries.