Re: FAR:Safety Pilot & High Performance/Complex?

[Jim]

It is my understanding (always subject to correction) that as a safety pilot
you may log PIC time because you are indeed a required crew member for the
operation. However, to log PIC time you also must be qualified to act as
PIC of that particular aircraft.
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply


"FryGuy" > wrote in message
1...
> I have a couple of questions that are unclear to me regarding being a
> safety pilot and operating high performance and/or complex aircraft. I've
> tried looking these up in the 2003 FAR but I wasn't able to find a good
> answer to my questions. If you could give me the reference in the FAR if
> there is one I would appreciate it. Here they are:
>
> 1) I have a friend who needs to go practice some IFR approaches to stay
> current. I am a private pilot ASEL. I'm pretty sure that it is not a
> problem with me being his safety pilot but he told me I can log the time
> PIC. Is this correct?
>
> 2) What are the requirements for complex and high performance aircraft? I
> thought that an endorsement was required for planes with retractable gear
> and a adjustable prop and another for planes with a greater than 200
> horsepower engine. In my log book I see an endorsement line for the HP
> (there isn't a FAR reference though) but not for the complex. I looked up
> "complex" in the FAR and could not find anything regarding this.
>
> 3) Ok, now the combination of the two. Lets say I do need an endorsment
> for the complex/HP aircraft. Can I log time as the safety pilot in this
> plane if I haven't yet gotten the endorsment for complex/HP? 91.109.b.2
> says the safety pilot just needs to be a private pilot with the
appropriate
> category and class ratings.
>
> Thanks for the information!
>
> Jeff Frey

[John T]

"Jim" > wrote in message

>
> However, to log PIC time you also
> must be qualified to act as PIC of that particular aircraft.

It is not required that you be qualified to be PIC of a particular aircraft,
only the category and class of the aircraft. As an example, if you don't
have a high performance endorsement, you will be hard pressed to find an FBO
to rent you a C182. However, you could still be a safety pilot in that
plane (and log PIC for the time actually spent as safety pilot) if you have
a PP-ASEL certificate.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
__________

[Jim]

I "think" John Lynch's take on the question is that you must have the
appropriate endorsements to log PIC when acting as safety pilot. If the
safety pilot does not act as the legal PIC he/she does not need the proper
endorsements, however they may not log the safety pilot time as PIC. New
question: Is there ever a case when you can log PIC time when you aren't
both properly rated and endorsed?


QUESTION: According to § 91.109(b), a safety pilot must possess at
least a private certificate with appropriate category & class ratings. Is
it necessary for that safety pilot to be "current" in the aircraft
(landings, etc.)? Requirements of 61.55 specifically exempt safety pilots
[§ 61.55(d)(4)], but where are the safety pilot criteria actually spelled
out. Section 61.57 refers to pilot-in-command requirements, but a safety
pilot is not PIC, only a required crew member. Further, has there ever been
an interpretation that the safety pilot must be Instrument Rated for that
type of VFR operation?



ANSWER: Ref. § 61.31(d)(1); § 61.51(e)(1)(iii), § 61.51(f)(2), §
61.3(c); § 61.56(c), § 61.57(c); A safety pilot is a "required crewmember"
and must hold at least a valid private pilot certificate with category and
class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown per § 91.109(b) and a
valid medical certificate per § 61.3(c). A valid pilot certificate is one
which has not been revoked or under suspension.



That person who is serving as a safety pilot may choose to act as the legal
pilot-in-command (per 14 CFR part 1) and log the time as PIC [per §
61.51(e)(1)(iii)], or otherwise log the time as SIC time [per §
61.51(f)(2)], but is not even required to log the time at all. However, the
safety pilot's name must be logged by the person practicing instrument
flight [per § 61.51(g)(3)(ii)]. If the safety pilot is going to act as the
legal PIC for the flight that person must ". . . Hold the appropriate
category, class, and type rating (if a class rating and type rating are
required) for the aircraft to be flown;" [per § 61.31(d)(1)]. ). And if
the flight is conducted in a high performance, complex, tail wheel, etc.
aircraft and the safety pilot is acting as the legal PIC that pilot must
have the appropriate endorsements that are required by § 61.31(e), (f)
and/or (i), as appropriate. This could be a reason why a safety pilot might
only be able to serve as an SIC and log it as SIC time.



And assuming the operation is a simulated instrument flight (as in the case
the flight is performed in VMC conditions under VFR), the safety pilot would
not need to hold an instrument rating. If any portion of the flight were
conducted on an IFR flight plan (e.g., in and out of the clouds and/or even
on an IFR flight plan) at least one of the pilots must have an instrument
rating and the § 1.1 PIC must be instrument current in accordance with §
61.57(c) and be Flight Review current in accordance with § 61.56(c).



"John T" > wrote in message
ws.com...
> "Jim" > wrote in message
>
> >
> > However, to log PIC time you also
> > must be qualified to act as PIC of that particular aircraft.
>
> It is not required that you be qualified to be PIC of a particular
aircraft,
> only the category and class of the aircraft. As an example, if you don't
> have a high performance endorsement, you will be hard pressed to find an
FBO
> to rent you a C182. However, you could still be a safety pilot in that
> plane (and log PIC for the time actually spent as safety pilot) if you
have
> a PP-ASEL certificate.
>
> --
> John T
> http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
> __________
>
>
>

[John T]

"Jim" > wrote in message

>
> I "think" John Lynch's take on the question is that you must have the
> appropriate endorsements to log PIC when acting as safety pilot. If
> the safety pilot does not act as the legal PIC he/she does not need
> the proper endorsements, however they may not log the safety pilot
> time as PIC.

Yeah, I already posted a retraction on my first answer. SIC would be
allowed under these circumstances, though.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
__________

[Robert M. Gary]

"Jim" > wrote in message >...
> It is my understanding (always subject to correction) that as a safety pilot
> you may log PIC time because you are indeed a required crew member for the
> operation. However, to log PIC time you also must be qualified to act as
> PIC of that particular aircraft.

Well you could log SIC, but to log PIC but must **BE** pilot in
command, not just qualified. To log SIC you only need cat/class/<type
if required>.

[B25flyer]

>
>Well you could log SIC, but to log PIC but must **BE** pilot in
>command, not just qualified. To log SIC you only need cat/class/<type
>if required>.
>

And the aircraft has to require two pilots.

Walt

[Jim]

Not the aircraft, just the flight operation. Simulated instrument flight
with a safety pilot = two pilots even if it's in a C150. The safety pilots
certification, ratings, currency, and endorsements determine his ability to
log PIC vs SIC.
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply

"B25flyer" > wrote in message
...
> >
> >Well you could log SIC, but to log PIC but must **BE** pilot in
> >command, not just qualified. To log SIC you only need cat/class/<type
> >if required>.
> >
>
> And the aircraft has to require two pilots.
>
> Walt

[Robert M. Gary]

(B25flyer) wrote in message >...
> >
> >Well you could log SIC, but to log PIC but must **BE** pilot in
> >command, not just qualified. To log SIC you only need cat/class/<type
> >if required>.
> >
>
> And the aircraft has to require two pilots.

Or the regulation requires more than one crew.

"is acting as pilot in command of an^M
aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type^M
certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the
flight is^M
conducted.^M"

So "regulation" in this case includes hood (regulations require
mutliple crews for a hood) and part 135 IFR with pax.

[Tom S.]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
om...
> (B25flyer) wrote in message
>...
> > >
> > >Well you could log SIC, but to log PIC but must **BE** pilot in
> > >command, not just qualified. To log SIC you only need cat/class/<type
> > >if required>.
> > >
> >
> > And the aircraft has to require two pilots.
>
> Or the regulation requires more than one crew.
>
> "is acting as pilot in command of an^M
> aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type^M
> certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the
> flight is^M
> conducted.^M"

So in a CitationJet/CJ1/CJ2/Bravo that only requires one pilot, but
typically has two, the co-pilot is just going along for the ride?

[Tom S.]

"Matthew Waugh" > wrote in message
...
> "Tom S." > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > So in a CitationJet/CJ1/CJ2/Bravo that only requires one pilot, but
> > typically has two, the co-pilot is just going along for the ride?
>
> In the SP models, and providing the Ops Spec. doesn't require something
> different, then yes.
>
Okay, thanks. That probably explains why our two senior/managing partners,
both SP qualified, but who never fly together (company rules) didn't want to
hire an "on-call" pilot at $30K per year for our CJ1.

[Roger Halstead]

On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 21:58:42 -0500, "Highfllyer" >
wrote:

>Nah. The regulation says "properly rated in category and class". Category
>and class is "single engine" and "land."
>
>High performance signoff is an endorsement and not a rating and does not
>change your "rating" in any way.
>
>It is one of those things that is open to interpretation. Remember when the
>safety pilot regs were written there were no such things as "endorsements"
>for "complex or high performance."
>
>I have no such "endorsements" in my logbooks and I doubt I ever shall. I
>normally fly a 300 HP taildragger! :-)

Me neither and the FAA went on record some years ago that the safety
pilot does not have to have the high performance/complex
endorsement(s) As I mentioned earlier, I do take first time safety
pilots for me, out and give them a good familiarization on how to fly
the Deb.

Now as the safety pilot is "required" I could care less how they log
it. They are "to me", essentially PIC at least part of the time.
I enter their name in my log and leave it up to them how ever they
want to log it in theirs.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)


>
>
>"John T" > wrote in message
ws.com...
>> "Jim" > wrote in message
>>
>> >
>> > I "think" John Lynch's take on the question is that you must have the
>> > appropriate endorsements to log PIC when acting as safety pilot. If
>> > the safety pilot does not act as the legal PIC he/she does not need
>> > the proper endorsements, however they may not log the safety pilot
>> > time as PIC.
>>
>> Yeah, I already posted a retraction on my first answer. SIC would be
>> allowed under these circumstances, though.
>>
>> --
>> John T
>> http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
>> __________
>>
>>
>>
>