How much does a CFI make?

[Peter Gibbons]

I know I will probably get alot of 'it depends' in response to this
question, but I guess I'm curious when a flight school charges a
student $25/hr for flight instruction, what chunk of that actually
goes to the CFI?

And realistically your average CFI is not flying all the time. Figure
in weather delays, ground school, etc - what would a 'good' yearly
salary for a full-time, low-hour CFI be?

[Larry Fransson]

In article >,
(Peter Gibbons) wrote:

> I know I will probably get alot of 'it depends' in response to this
> question, but I guess I'm curious when a flight school charges a
> student $25/hr for flight instruction, what chunk of that actually
> goes to the CFI?

Anywhere between around $8 and $20, depending on various things.

Where I used to work, instructors were paid on a sliding scale, with the
pay rate increasing with the number of flight & ground hours billed
during the month. With time and after passing certain milestones, the
base rate (the rate at which you were paid from hour zero for the month)
could be increased, which was definitely a good thing during the slow
months. During the busy months, it wasn't uncommon for instructors to
reach $20 an hour, which gave them a gross income of $2400 for the
month. One great thing about that system was that any instructor could
reach that level, whether they were brand new on the staff with a base
rate of $8 an hour, or had been there for a couple of years with a base
rate of $12 an hour. It was motivation to get out and fill your
schedule and be productive.

> And realistically your average CFI is not flying all the time. Figure
> in weather delays, ground school, etc - what would a 'good' yearly
> salary for a full-time, low-hour CFI be?

Expect to work two hours for every hour you bill. I knew instructors
who struggled to bill 50 hours in a month, and those with established
clientele who could make 100 hours a month without breaking a sweat.
That ranges you between $400 a month and $2000 a month - probably more
now since I left instruction in 1998. I also knew instructors who did a
lot of charter flying and were regularly able to gross $3000 a month
much of the year.

--
Larry Fransson
Aviation software for Mac OS X!
http://www.subcritical.com

[Hamish Reid]

In article >,
(Peter Gibbons) wrote:

> I know I will probably get alot of 'it depends' in response to this
> question, but I guess I'm curious when a flight school charges a
> student $25/hr for flight instruction, what chunk of that actually
> goes to the CFI?

That depends :-). At the flying club I'm part of, instructors can
officially charge up to $35 per hour -- and they keep every cent of
that. The club makes its money from aircraft rentals, rather than
instructor fees.

Hamish

[C J Campbell]

"Peter Gibbons" > wrote in message
om...
| I know I will probably get alot of 'it depends' in response to this
| question, but I guess I'm curious when a flight school charges a
| student $25/hr for flight instruction, what chunk of that actually
| goes to the CFI?
|
| And realistically your average CFI is not flying all the time. Figure
| in weather delays, ground school, etc - what would a 'good' yearly
| salary for a full-time, low-hour CFI be?

Most flight schools pay their CFIs between $15 and $20 an instructional
hour. Most CFIs probably make less than minimum wage.

[gatt]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message

> Most flight schools pay their CFIs between $15 and $20 an instructional
> hour. Most CFIs probably make less than minimum wage.

I guess this begs the question, how in hell do they pay their bills?

How long do they have to do that in order to start making decent money?

-c
PP/SEL, Portland, OR.

[Dennis O'Connor]

A young lady from our field just finished her education... 4 year BS degree,
all ratings through multi CFII - including D-18 and C-90 time - , pretty and
bright... She just got a job at KPTK for $16 an hour for flight
instructing... Seems to be the going rate... How long she will be at that
level is a combination of sweat and luck... Who can say... She is currently
doing part 135, right seat flying for free, to build hours...
Denny
>
> > Most flight schools pay their CFIs between $15 and $20 an instructional
> > hour. Most CFIs probably make less than minimum wage.

[C J Campbell]

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
|
| "C J Campbell" > wrote in message
|
| > Most flight schools pay their CFIs between $15 and $20 an instructional
| > hour. Most CFIs probably make less than minimum wage.
|
| I guess this begs the question, how in hell do they pay their bills?
|
| How long do they have to do that in order to start making decent money?
|

There are really three kinds of CFIs. Some treat flight instruction as a
retirement job, more of a full-time hobby than anything else. Others are
young people working their way toward an airline job. And there are those
for whom flight instruction offers its own career path.

The retirement guys are able to support themselves through some other income
source. The young CFIs hope to just survive long enough to get a job that
pays decently. The most interesting CFIs are those for whom flight
instruction is a career in itself. It is possible to do fairly well as a
CFI, as John and Martha King have more than amply demonstrated. While most
of us will probably not reach the level of the Kngs, it is reasonable for a
CFI to make upwards of $70,000 a year.

The career CFIs acquire unusual specialties and ratings. Many of them charge
$80 an hour or more for instruction. Additionally, they may own their own
aircraft, including aerobatic or seaplanes which they give instruction in.
If you want to fly a Caravan on floats, you will pay $100 an hour or more
for a decent CFI that meets all the insurance requirements.

Aviation pays poorly, though, no matter what career path you choose. The
average college graduate is now earning in excess of $55,000 right out of
school. The pilot pays $50,000 or more for an additional year or two of
training, then gets a job as a CFI earning $12,000. It will be ten years or
more before he starts earning as much as his peers did when they graduated.
The pilot's salary never catches up, either. By the time he is a senior
airline captain earning $200,000 a year, his peers are either earning more
than that or they have been getting an equivalent salary for much longer. If
you really want to earn a decent living in aviation, you are better off
becoming an airline executive than a pilot.

[Robert M. Gary]

It depends. :) Ok, you want something more real. There are two types
of places a CFI can choose to work at. The big schools that keep you
busy and work you a lot of hours will pay in the area of $10/hr. Make
sure mom and dad keep sending you checks. A small FBO or club will
charge the CFI around $5/hr. So if you charge $30/hr, you keep $25.
However, a small FBO or club is unlikely to provide more than 2 hours
a day of teaching to a full time CFI, so you make more money and more
hours working for peanuts at the big schools.

However, most FBOs and clubs will wave the fee if you find the student
yourself. This is what I do when teaching with the local clubs. If I
find the student and bring them to the club, I keep the entire fee.
However, I have the overhead of paying club dues when I never rent
myself.

-Robert, CFI



(Peter Gibbons) wrote in message >...
> I know I will probably get alot of 'it depends' in response to this
> question, but I guess I'm curious when a flight school charges a
> student $25/hr for flight instruction, what chunk of that actually
> goes to the CFI?
>
> And realistically your average CFI is not flying all the time. Figure
> in weather delays, ground school, etc - what would a 'good' yearly
> salary for a full-time, low-hour CFI be?

[Greg Burkhart]

When I took training at Wiley Post (PWA) airport in OKC, the owner of the
rental planes was the CFI and got the whole $20/hour for instruction. I had
a couple other instructors there and paid them similar and they also kept
the entire amount for training. The owner got his rental fees.

When I got some training at McCreery in McAllen, TX (MFE), I paid $25/hour
if it were their rentals or $35/hour for instruction in my own plane. I'm
not sure how much the CFI got of that.

I also took CFI's up in Iowa, again what I paid them for the instruction,
they kept. Some of the smaller airports with a CFI around usually aren't
working for a flight school or FBO and get to keep all they're paid. Check
out the bulletin boards (Not BBS!) at the airstrips...

YMMV!

[TripFarmer]

I've noticed that no one is quoting an "Annual" amount. Sure they charge
$25-$40 per hour but what does their Form 1040 say? I knew a guy once who quit
instructing to become a janitor. I thought it was sad that he would try to
live on $7-8,000 annually for years. I loved flying when I got my license at
21 but knew I wanted to make more than I saw people making. Sometimes I wish I
could fly everyday but I also like what I do for a profession. I admire those
who keep at it, following their passions.


Trip



In article <ha8_a.128723$YN5.86441@sccrnsc01>, says...
>
>When I took training at Wiley Post (PWA) airport in OKC, the owner of the
>rental planes was the CFI and got the whole $20/hour for instruction. I had
>a couple other instructors there and paid them similar and they also kept
>the entire amount for training. The owner got his rental fees.
>
>When I got some training at McCreery in McAllen, TX (MFE), I paid $25/hour
>if it were their rentals or $35/hour for instruction in my own plane. I'm
>not sure how much the CFI got of that.
>
>I also took CFI's up in Iowa, again what I paid them for the instruction,
>they kept. Some of the smaller airports with a CFI around usually aren't
>working for a flight school or FBO and get to keep all they're paid. Check
>out the bulletin boards (Not BBS!) at the airstrips...
>
>YMMV!
>
>

[Ditch]

>I've noticed that no one is quoting an "Annual" amount. Sure they charge
>$25-$40 per hour but what does their Form 1040 say?

When I was doing full time CFI-ing, I think the best year I had was about 14K.
My best year working as a pilot was significantly better than that, but not
enough. So, as of May of this year I gave up flying and now am partner in a
small business. The money is tight, but the company is growing and by this time
next year I'll be in a good spot and be able to fly for fun on my terms.


-John
*You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North
American*

[Larry Fransson]

In article >,
"gatt" > wrote:

> I guess this begs the question, how in hell do they pay their bills?

I lived with my parents for the two years that I was instructing.
Others I knew were married and their wives who also had an income.

> How long do they have to do that in order to start making decent money?

It took me two years. But that was 1998. These days, I'd say it will
take twice that, if not longer.

--
Larry Fransson
Aviation software for Mac OS X!
http://www.subcritical.com

[Larry Fransson]

In article >,
"Dennis O'Connor" > wrote:

> She is currently
> doing part 135, right seat flying for free, to build hours...

Argh. This always gets me. It's one thing to pay for training. It's
another thing entirely to work for free. To do that is to completely
devalue your skills.

--
Larry Fransson
Aviation software for Mac OS X!
http://www.subcritical.com

[Ditch]

>Argh. This always gets me. It's one thing to pay for training. It's
>another thing entirely to work for free. To do that is to completely
>devalue your skills.

That, and it puts a working pilot out of a job. She should be shot.




-John
*You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North
American*

[Peter Duniho]

"Ditch" > wrote in message
...
> >Argh. This always gets me. It's one thing to pay for training. It's
> >another thing entirely to work for free. To do that is to completely
> >devalue your skills.
>
> That, and it puts a working pilot out of a job. She should be shot.

Shot? Isn't that a little extreme?

I fail to see the difference between what she's doing, and what every other
inexperienced commercial pilot does, except in degree. Fact is, EVERY pilot
trying to get into the big cushy airline job puts up with all sorts of
"devaluing" situations, whether that's a low income, ****ty hours, no choice
about relocation, or cleaning the dog poop off of some corporate customer's
shoes.

I've never heard of any person getting into commercial aviation for any
reason other than that they love to fly. People like that, they are
inclined to do crazy things just to get into a cockpit, including flying for
nothing except the hours.

So, what's the difference if one person decides that they are willing to go
all the way down to zero pay to win the job? You can argue till the cows
come home that no one ought to do that, but look around you: even those
pilots who are getting paid aren't getting paid what they ought to be paid,
given how much training and hassles they've been through to get where they
are.

Any time someone agrees to fly an airplane for less than another pilot is
willing to, they "put a working pilot out of a job". But at the same time,
one working pilot gets the job. Pilots get paid low wages because most of
them *would* fly for no pay, push come to shove. Just happens one person
actually wound up doing that.

Pete

[gatt]

"Larry Fransson" > wrote in message
news:newsgroups-

> > I guess this begs the question, how in hell do they pay their bills?
>
> I lived with my parents for the two years that I was instructing.
> Others I knew were married and their wives who also had an income.
>
> > How long do they have to do that in order to start making decent money?

Thanks for the information, Larry. Currently I'm starting the
IFR/ME/Commercial/CFI/CFII path and taking Cisco and Novell certification
courses (fallback) concurrently. Already have my private and a four-year
degree.

What torques me is that every career-oriented site talks about how much
money you make as an airline captain. I don't think I'd even -want- to do
that, but there isn't much info out there about other non-ATP flying jobs.

I did a P-38 video shoot with Jeff Ethell right before he died. Now, that
guy had the coolest flying job this side of the Collins Foundation pilots.

-c

[Larry Fransson]

In article >,
"gatt" > wrote:

> What torques me is that every career-oriented site talks about how much
> money you make as an airline captain. I don't think I'd even -want- to do
> that, but there isn't much info out there about other non-ATP flying jobs.

What's even better is that those big salary numbers are going to start
shrinking very soon. They already have, actually. It was well
publicized that United pilots took a major pay cut. Another major
airline recently asked its pilots for a 23% pay cut across the board
along with a few other things. That was rejected out of hand, of
course, but that's the direction things are going. If Richard Branson's
proposed discount airline gets off the ground, it certainly won't get
any better.

I'd also like to know where Kit Darby (Air, Inc. - aka www.jet-jobs.com)
is getting his information. He's putting ads out there saying that
hundreds of airlines are looking to hire 7000+ pilots in 2003. I'm not
sure I see that, but whatever.

There are plenty of non-airline jobs out there. You just have to get to
know people and keep your ears open. That's how I got my current job,
and I have a line on another that might be an interesting move up. A
lot of those jobs are being held by out of work airline pilots, though.
Our two most recent hires were furloughed by United and American.
They'll be with us for at least two if not three years.

--
Larry Fransson
Aviation software for Mac OS X!
http://www.subcritical.com

[Tom S.]

"Larry Fransson" > wrote in message
...
>
> I'd also like to know where Kit Darby (Air, Inc. - aka www.jet-jobs.com)
> is getting his information.

Probably the same place that Monster.com gets theirs. :~)

(According to a WSJ report about 18 months ago, only about 1.1% of jobs are
filled through Monster.com; other are far less. Many jobs are recycled
weekly for over a year and resumes end up in the hands of spammers).

> He's putting ads out there saying that
> hundreds of airlines are looking to hire 7000+ pilots in 2003. I'm not
> sure I see that, but whatever.

Sounds like Darby is a "Legend In His Own Mind".

Tom

[TripFarmer]

If I own a corporate plane I want the most qualified person flying for me I can
find. One reason I don't ride on buses. Drivers are usually a $7 per hour
person. I won't trust my life to that person. I'd never put my child on a
school bus, either.


Trip

In article >,
says...
>
>"Ditch" > wrote in message
...
>> >Argh. This always gets me. It's one thing to pay for training. It's
>> >another thing entirely to work for free. To do that is to completely
>> >devalue your skills.
>>
>> That, and it puts a working pilot out of a job. She should be shot.
>
>Shot? Isn't that a little extreme?
>
>I fail to see the difference between what she's doing, and what every other
>inexperienced commercial pilot does, except in degree. Fact is, EVERY pilot
>trying to get into the big cushy airline job puts up with all sorts of
>"devaluing" situations, whether that's a low income, ****ty hours, no choice
>about relocation, or cleaning the dog poop off of some corporate customer's
>shoes.
>
>I've never heard of any person getting into commercial aviation for any
>reason other than that they love to fly. People like that, they are
>inclined to do crazy things just to get into a cockpit, including flying for
>nothing except the hours.
>
>So, what's the difference if one person decides that they are willing to go
>all the way down to zero pay to win the job? You can argue till the cows
>come home that no one ought to do that, but look around you: even those
>pilots who are getting paid aren't getting paid what they ought to be paid,
>given how much training and hassles they've been through to get where they
>are.
>
>Any time someone agrees to fly an airplane for less than another pilot is
>willing to, they "put a working pilot out of a job". But at the same time,
>one working pilot gets the job. Pilots get paid low wages because most of
>them *would* fly for no pay, push come to shove. Just happens one person
>actually wound up doing that.
>
>Pete
>
>

[Mark]

"Tom S." > wrote in message >...
> "Larry Fransson" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > I'd also like to know where Kit Darby (Air, Inc. - aka www.jet-jobs.com)
> > is getting his information.
>
> Probably the same place that Monster.com gets theirs. :~)
>
> (According to a WSJ report about 18 months ago, only about 1.1% of jobs are
> filled through Monster.com; other are far less. Many jobs are recycled
> weekly for over a year and resumes end up in the hands of spammers).
>
> > He's putting ads out there saying that
> > hundreds of airlines are looking to hire 7000+ pilots in 2003. I'm not
> > sure I see that, but whatever.
>
> Sounds like Darby is a "Legend In His Own Mind".
>
> Tom


Sorry to get off topic, but this is VERY true about Monster. I know
for a fact that many employers use Monster to advertise a job when
they know they will never fill that positon. The reason (again this
is first hand info) is they have someone on the inside of the company
applying for the position but to satisify some legal rule they must
offer it to "outsiders" first.

A more comon reason the company i work for uses Monster is to get a
green card for non-american. In order for them to get a green card
and work in the US, they have to prove that they are not taking a job
away from a qualified american worker. So they advertise the job on
Monster with an add reading somthing like, "...needing 10 years
programming experience in c, c++, Basic, Fortran, Cobal, Pascal with 5
years project management experience while working with some no named
programming language...". Basicially, whenever you read a job add that
makes you say "Who would EVER have that combination of experience",
it's a job they are trying to justify to give to someone they already
have hired.

Again, sorry to get off topic.. Oh and yes, Monster is a place to get
good e-mail addresses for SPAM!

[Mark]

(Ditch) wrote in message >...
> >I've noticed that no one is quoting an "Annual" amount. Sure they charge
> >$25-$40 per hour but what does their Form 1040 say?
>
> When I was doing full time CFI-ing, I think the best year I had was about 14K.
> My best year working as a pilot was significantly better than that, but not
> enough. So, as of May of this year I gave up flying and now am partner in a
> small business. The money is tight, but the company is growing and by this time
> next year I'll be in a good spot and be able to fly for fun on my terms.
>
>
> -John
> *You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North
> American*


I used to fly for a living but got tired of being on call 24 hours a
day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. Plus, I only made about $22K a
year. Flying was a job instead of a love. So, I went in programming
and now make around ~60K and I get to fly whenever I want on MY terms.
I don't fly as much, but when I do go out, it's like my first flight
all over again (as well as my skills).

With that said, If I could make even $40K a year flying, I would go
back into it in a second. However my life goal is to make more a year
than my age (38 = $38,000).

Most instructors I know have rich parents, or living dirt poor. Most
are young (under 25) and have been to one of the aviation schools. In
this part of the country, you don't see many 30+ year old full time
instructors. They have either moved up to full tie pilots or gone into
another career field.

I believe the spirit of the barn stormers is alive in todays
instructors. Instead of sleeping under the wing, they sleep in their
cars.

[Peter Duniho]

"TripFarmer" > wrote in message
...
> If I own a corporate plane I want the most qualified person flying for me
I can
> find.

Not everyone shares that approach.

> One reason I don't ride on buses. Drivers are usually a $7 per hour
> person. I won't trust my life to that person.

Probably not a bad idea. You're right, they aren't the best drivers in the
world (and my opinion of them is even lower since I got rear-ended by a
full-size bus a few months ago). But again, not everyone shares that
approach.

None of that has anything to do with a pilot flying for no pay, other than
perhaps the fact that YOU wouldn't allow a pilot to fly for no pay (and
honestly, just because the pilot is willing to fly for no pay, that doesn't
mean they're unqualified).

Pete

[Larry Fransson]

In article >,
"Peter Duniho" > wrote:

> None of that has anything to do with a pilot flying for no pay, other than
> perhaps the fact that YOU wouldn't allow a pilot to fly for no pay (and
> honestly, just because the pilot is willing to fly for no pay, that doesn't
> mean they're unqualified).

My question about this situation would be whether or not the pilot in
question has actually been trained and certified to act as a required
crewmember under part 135. If they're not going to pay the pilot, are
they going to take the time and go to the expense and trouble of
training that pilot? Part 135 training is not trivial, although someone
could certainly make it so. The company's FAA-approved training manual
outlines the number of hours of ground training required, as well as the
flight training requirements. After that, there is a checkride with
either a company check airman or FAA inspector. Then there is annual
recurrent training and a checkride (for SICs - PICs get semi-annual
checkrides). This all costs something. If the company needs the pilot,
they ought to be paying the pilot. If they're skimping on their pilots
and taking whoever will work for free, what else are they skimping on?

I would guess that what's really going on is that the pilot is "riding
along for experience" and flying any empty legs that can be flown under
part 91.

--
Larry Fransson
Aviation software for Mac OS X!
http://www.subcritical.com

[Newps]

> "Ditch" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>>Argh. This always gets me. It's one thing to pay for training. It's
>>>another thing entirely to work for free. To do that is to completely
>>>devalue your skills.
>>
>>That, and it puts a working pilot out of a job. She should be shot.

Work for nothing? That's nothing. You can buy the right seat on Alpine
Air's Beech 99's.

[Tom S.]

"Mark" > wrote in message
om...
> "Tom S." > wrote in message
>...
> > "Larry Fransson" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > I'd also like to know where Kit Darby (Air, Inc. - aka
www.jet-jobs.com)
> > > is getting his information.
> >
> > Probably the same place that Monster.com gets theirs. :~)
> >
> > (According to a WSJ report about 18 months ago, only about 1.1% of jobs
are
> > filled through Monster.com; other are far less. Many jobs are recycled
> > weekly for over a year and resumes end up in the hands of spammers).
> >
> > > He's putting ads out there saying that
> > > hundreds of airlines are looking to hire 7000+ pilots in 2003. I'm
not
> > > sure I see that, but whatever.
> >
> > Sounds like Darby is a "Legend In His Own Mind".
> >
> > Tom
>
>
> Sorry to get off topic, but this is VERY true about Monster.

Since the sub-tpoic was "web sites for piloting jobs", I'd say that
corelations to job sites in general is right on topic....but that's just me.

>I know
> for a fact that many employers use Monster to advertise a job when
> they know they will never fill that positon. The reason (again this
> is first hand info) is they have someone on the inside of the company
> applying for the position but to satisify some legal rule they must
> offer it to "outsiders" first.

And many are "window shopping" to see how much they can get away with.

>
> A more comon reason the company i work for uses Monster is to get a
> green card for non-american. In order for them to get a green card
> and work in the US, they have to prove that they are not taking a job
> away from a qualified american worker. So they advertise the job on
> Monster with an add reading somthing like, "...needing 10 years
> programming experience in c, c++, Basic, Fortran, Cobal, Pascal with 5
> years project management experience while working with some no named
> programming language...". Basicially, whenever you read a job add that
> makes you say "Who would EVER have that combination of experience",
> it's a job they are trying to justify to give to someone they already
> have hired.

Or want to hire.

Same thing with pilots.

> Again, sorry to get off topic.. Oh and yes, Monster is a place to get
> good e-mail addresses for SPAM!

[Peter Duniho]

"Larry Fransson" > wrote in message
...
> [...] If the company needs the pilot,
> they ought to be paying the pilot. If they're skimping on their pilots
> and taking whoever will work for free, what else are they skimping on?

All fair questions. I'm just questioning the automatic hostility that this
pilot has received in absentia.

> I would guess that what's really going on is that the pilot is "riding
> along for experience" and flying any empty legs that can be flown under
> part 91.

Could very well be. Even more reason for folks to not judge her so harshly.

Pete

[G.R. Patterson III]

Mark wrote:
>
> Sorry to get off topic, but this is VERY true about Monster.

Can you recommend a better job-finder?

George Patterson
Brute force has an elegance all its own.

[Tom S.]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Mark wrote:
> >
> > Sorry to get off topic, but this is VERY true about Monster.
>
> Can you recommend a better job-finder?
>
Any board whose list is only 95% bogus, instead of 98%.