Anti Aviation

[Roger Halstead]

If you want to read a rather unbalanced approach, particularly to
noise... go over to alt.activism.noise.polution
There's a couple posts on there that propose things that would garner
the examination of the Homeland Security, FAA and who ever.

Remember these people might live near your airport.

There are some on there that might be a "danger to themselves".

Roger
Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

[Tom S.]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
> Believe me, there are some people that need to have their heads examined.
>
> I recently had some time to kill while visiting my dad in the largest
> hospital in Charlotte, NC. They have a large medi-vac outfit there,
> operating off the roof of the hospital, and when I happened upon some
> crewmen on an elevator, I asked if they would let me (and family) see
their
> setup, and they did.
>
> They were great, took us on to look at their birds, and talked to us for a
> good half hour. They said they have a required profile they have to fly
> because of noise complaints. Un-believeable.
>
> I bet those who are complaining would not complain, when they needed a
> chopper to fly them out of a bad situation.
>
They're probably the ones with their boom-box cranked up to 105Db.

[Larry Fransson]

In article >,
"hillbilly_hippo" > wrote:

> I simply cannot believe that there is a person that posts there that is
> advocating banning medi-vac helicopters simply because the NOISE disturbs
> him!

Believe it. It's true.

Children's Hospital in Seattle has a helipad, but it doesn't get used
much. Only truly "emergent" flights can use it. The rest have to fly
to a helipad at the north end of the University of Washington athletic
fields and go the rest of the way (a couple of miles) by ambulance.
There is a committee of local homeowners around the hospital that review
the records from flights that use the hospital's helipad in order to
determine if it was truly emergent and justified.

--
Larry Fransson
Aviation software for Mac OS X!
http://www.subcritical.com

[Big John]

1949 Williams AFB, AZ

I lived about 100 yards from tie down area where F-80's were run up
after maintenance. This normally started after mid night.

Kept me awake for about a week. Nevr heard them for next 4 years.

Some people just like to bitch.

Big John


On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 18:42:53 -0700, "hillbilly_hippo"
> wrote:

>Ohhhhhhhh man. What a bunch of nutbags. I simply cannot believe that a group
>of people can whine and bitch soooooo much! Geeze. I certainly hope none of
>them live near my airport, I'll be dodging birdshot from a crazy hillbilly
>while I'm turning final! Holy crap.
> I simply cannot believe that there is a person that posts there that is
>advocating banning medi-vac helicopters simply because the NOISE disturbs
>him! I swear.
>
>John Y.
>PP-ASEL
>

[Big John]

If I were a lawyer, I'd do my home work and any deaths of people
landing at remote site would be cause for a suit against the
committee. After they forked over a few million dollars they might be
of a different mind.

Big John


On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 03:00:42 GMT, Larry Fransson
> wrote:

>In article >,
> "hillbilly_hippo" > wrote:
>
>> I simply cannot believe that there is a person that posts there that is
>> advocating banning medi-vac helicopters simply because the NOISE disturbs
>> him!
>
>Believe it. It's true.
>
>Children's Hospital in Seattle has a helipad, but it doesn't get used
>much. Only truly "emergent" flights can use it. The rest have to fly
>to a helipad at the north end of the University of Washington athletic
>fields and go the rest of the way (a couple of miles) by ambulance.
>There is a committee of local homeowners around the hospital that review
>the records from flights that use the hospital's helipad in order to
>determine if it was truly emergent and justified.

[Yossarian]

I'm sure you knew the base was there when you moved in, too :)

"Big John" > wrote in message
...
> 1949 Williams AFB, AZ
>
> I lived about 100 yards from tie down area where F-80's were run up
> after maintenance. This normally started after mid night.
>
> Kept me awake for about a week. Nevr heard them for next 4 years.
>
> Some people just like to bitch.
>
> Big John
>
>
> On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 18:42:53 -0700, "hillbilly_hippo"
> > wrote:
>
> >Ohhhhhhhh man. What a bunch of nutbags. I simply cannot believe that a
group
> >of people can whine and bitch soooooo much! Geeze. I certainly hope none
of
> >them live near my airport, I'll be dodging birdshot from a crazy
hillbilly
> >while I'm turning final! Holy crap.
> > I simply cannot believe that there is a person that posts there that
is
> >advocating banning medi-vac helicopters simply because the NOISE disturbs
> >him! I swear.
> >
> >John Y.
> >PP-ASEL
> >
>

[Jay Honeck]

> If you want to read a rather unbalanced approach, particularly to
> noise... go over to alt.activism.noise.polution

Thankfully it appears that my ISP filters THAT particular group out...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[G.R. Patterson III]

Morgans wrote:
>
> I bet those who are complaining would not complain, when they needed a
> chopper to fly them out of a bad situation.

You'd lose. A few years back, the city of Mannville in New Jersey was completely
cut off by major flooding. Prior to the floods, there had been serious attempts
made to shut the airport down. During the floods, the only way in or out was
through the airport. The National Guard staged out of there, and the owner and
other people kept it open all night during the emergency.

The result? A few months later, the Manville city council passed a resolution
that the airport should be closed. The owners finally convinced the State to
step in and buy the development rights, which effectively keeps anyone from
using it for anything but an airport.

George Patterson
They say that nothing's certain except death and taxes. The thing is,
death doesn't get worse every time Congress goes into session.
Will Rogers

[Snowbird]

Larry Fransson > wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> "hillbilly_hippo" > wrote:
> > I simply cannot believe that there is a person that posts there that is
> > advocating banning medi-vac helicopters simply because the NOISE disturbs
> > him!

> Believe it. It's true.

> Children's Hospital in Seattle has a helipad, but it doesn't get used
> much. Only truly "emergent" flights can use it. The rest have to fly
> to a helipad at the north end of the University of Washington athletic
> fields and go the rest of the way (a couple of miles) by ambulance.
> There is a committee of local homeowners around the hospital that review
> the records from flights that use the hospital's helipad in order to
> determine if it was truly emergent and justified.

Is there a committe of health care professionals that review the
records from "non emergent" flights to determine if any patients
condition deteriorated during the extra transfer to ambulance and
the 2 mile trip to the hospital?

If there isn't, there ought ta be.

What happens if these busy-bodies decide a flight was not justified?

Sydney (not cheering)

PS our airport gets a lot of noise complaints. they maintain a
map, along with time and date of complaint if it can be determined.
it's very interesting. basically what it boiled down to was, a
large number of complaints from a very small number of locations,
and when the basis for the complaint could be determined it was
often a commercial jetliner flying overhead at 3,000-5,000 ft,
not even a plane landing at our airport!

[Peter R.]

Jay Honeck ) wrote:

> > If you want to read a rather unbalanced approach, particularly to
> > noise... go over to alt.activism.noise.polution
>
> Thankfully it appears that my ISP filters THAT particular group out...

Filters the group? Doubtful. Rather, your ISP probably does not add an
obscure group unless asked.

If you send them an email asking for the group to be added, they probably
would.

--
Peter

[Larry Fransson]

In article >,
(Snowbird) wrote:

> Is there a committe of health care professionals that review the
> records from "non emergent" flights to determine if any patients
> condition deteriorated during the extra transfer to ambulance and
> the 2 mile trip to the hospital?

Not that I know of.

> What happens if these busy-bodies decide a flight was not justified?

Can't say that I know. It never occurred to me to ask that question.

--
Larry Fransson
Aviation software for Mac OS X!
http://www.subcritical.com

[Dan Luke]

> > noise... go over to alt.activism.noise.polution
>
> Thankfully it appears that my ISP filters THAT particular group out...

He misspelled it. It's alt.activism.noise.pollution (two l's)

[Jay Honeck]

> Filters the group? Doubtful. Rather, your ISP probably does not add an
> obscure group unless asked.
>
> If you send them an email asking for the group to be added, they probably
> would.

God help me, the LAST thing I need is to spend MORE time on line, arguing
with nutcases worried about "noise pollution"...

No, I'll just be quietly thankful that my ISP has eliminated that option for
me! :)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Roger Halstead]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 05:42:25 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> If you want to read a rather unbalanced approach, particularly to
>> noise... go over to alt.activism.noise.polution
>
>Thankfully it appears that my ISP filters THAT particular group out...

It's a group I'd have them put on...They need watching. They
sometimes advocate things that are far beyond legal. Things in today's
climate that I'd not even joke about.

Actually after following that group for a while I'm surprised that the
FBI hasn't paid a couple them a visit. After all there is no such
thing as being anonymous on the net...not to those who know how to
find you, and those who have the authority to get the information.

It's an interesting group to watch...once in a while some one has a
legit complaint that is well presented. Also a pilot might get a
"heads up" on something brewing in their area.

Most are the "far out" fringe who are so far out that the authorities
ignore them and they can't understand why.

Typically "I think" in many of the posts only "part of the story gets
told" and in real life things are not at all as they are presented.

There are some who in their far out radical ways could present a
threat to aviation in one form or another from organizing neighborhood
groups to "let your imagination be your guide. (we had to spend
several years defusing one of those in an expensive subdivision right
off the end of 18 and most of it was instigated by one person getting
the rest of the neighborhood riled so *they* would do the
complaining).

Roger
Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

[Roger Halstead]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 17:04:25 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> Filters the group? Doubtful. Rather, your ISP probably does not add an
>> obscure group unless asked.
>>
>> If you send them an email asking for the group to be added, they probably
>> would.
>
>God help me, the LAST thing I need is to spend MORE time on line, arguing
>with nutcases worried about "noise pollution"...

No, with that group you wouldn't want to argue, although a few of us
do occasionally try to make a well reasoned statement. I see an
occasional name I recognize.

>
>No, I'll just be quietly thankful that my ISP has eliminated that option for
>me! :)

They don't even bother my blood pressure.

They are something you really should monitor. Most of the stuff is so
far out in left field I don't even feel a desire to try and reason or
set them straight.

There is a lot claimed that is hardly likely to have happened in the
manner claimed.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

[Roger Halstead]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 11:54:20 -0500, "Dan Luke"
<c172rgATbellsouthDOTnet> wrote:

>> > noise... go over to alt.activism.noise.polution
>>
>> Thankfully it appears that my ISP filters THAT particular group out...
>
>He misspelled it. It's alt.activism.noise.pollution (two l's)

Blame the spell checker in Agent. <:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)
>

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
(Snowbird) wrote:

> PS our airport gets a lot of noise complaints.

heck, airports get noise complaints when no aircraft is even
in the area.

--
Bob Noel

[gblack]

--


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:to8%a.150494$Ho3.18351@sccrnsc03...
: > Filters the group? Doubtful. Rather, your ISP probably does not
add an
: > obscure group unless asked.
: >
: > If you send them an email asking for the group to be added, they
probably
: > would.
:
: God help me, the LAST thing I need is to spend MORE time on line,
arguing
: with nutcases worried about "noise pollution"...
:
: No, I'll just be quietly thankful that my ISP has eliminated that
option for
: me! :)
:
Most of us in here would prefer to hear the noise and keep hearing the
noise.
Silence is not an option outside sailplanes
George Black

http://www.koekejunction.hnpl.net/

[Kevin McCue]

We used to get complaints from homeowners about noise when we flew R/C
sailplanes!

--
Kevin McCue
KRYN
'47 Luscombe 8E
Rans S-17 (for sale)




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[Ash Wyllie]

Gently extracted from the mind of Snowbird;


>Larry Fransson > wrote in message
>...
>> In article >,
>> "hillbilly_hippo" > wrote:
>> > I simply cannot believe that there is a person that posts there that is
>> > advocating banning medi-vac helicopters simply because the NOISE disturbs
>> > him!

>> Believe it. It's true.

>> Children's Hospital in Seattle has a helipad, but it doesn't get used
>> much. Only truly "emergent" flights can use it. The rest have to fly
>> to a helipad at the north end of the University of Washington athletic
>> fields and go the rest of the way (a couple of miles) by ambulance.
>> There is a committee of local homeowners around the hospital that review
>> the records from flights that use the hospital's helipad in order to
>> determine if it was truly emergent and justified.

>Is there a committe of health care professionals that review the
>records from "non emergent" flights to determine if any patients
>condition deteriorated during the extra transfer to ambulance and
>the 2 mile trip to the hospital?

>If there isn't, there ought ta be.

>What happens if these busy-bodies decide a flight was not justified?

>Sydney (not cheering)

>PS our airport gets a lot of noise complaints. they maintain a
>map, along with time and date of complaint if it can be determined.
>it's very interesting. basically what it boiled down to was, a
>large number of complaints from a very small number of locations,
>and when the basis for the complaint could be determined it was
>often a commercial jetliner flying overhead at 3,000-5,000 ft,
>not even a plane landing at our airport!

There is a wonderful story about the flight testing of the Concorde way back
when.

The testers would publish schedules of the Concorde going supersonic over
land. One day a last minute glitch prevented the Concorde from taking off. It
did not prevent a lot of complaints and broken window claims. After that no
schedules were published and few complaints were recorded.

-ash
for assistance dial MYCROFTXXX

['Vejita' S. Cousin]

In article >,
Yossarian > wrote:
>I'm sure you knew the base was there when you moved in, too :)

Most people don't seem to notice things like train tracks, highways or
airports when they buy a house. It's always 'a surprise' after the fact.
Sort of like buying a house across from all the frats at the local college
(issue here at the University of Washington a few years back).

[Roger Halstead]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 13:44:07 -0700, "Kevin McCue"
> wrote:

> We used to get complaints from homeowners about noise when we flew R/C
>sailplanes!

Actually the full size ones sound a lot like a jet coming toward you,
but no roar when going away.

When we lived on the farm I was out washing the car one day and heard
a jet. I couldn't find it...Then I looked straight up.

Over the "freshly cut" wheat field was a column of sail planes.
There must have been 8 or 10 (maybe more), but that was a long time
ago. I grabbed the VCR...Yes, I had a VCR...all mechanical and the
camera was one of the so called "Minicams" used by TV stations.

Time I got the whole works hooked up and a tape inserted there were
just some tiny dots many thousands of feet above that looked as much
like birds as airplanes.

I was trying to watch those graceful birds while also trying to get
the VCR and Minicam to talk to each other.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

[Big John]

Yossarian

Yep. I was stationed there as an instructor.

Base housing was hard to come by and being a junior officer had pretty
much last choice. The house came open and I took it.

As I said, after a week never bothered me, my wife or my young
daughters.

Didn't have A/C in those days with a tight house to keep out noise.
Had a 'swamp cooler which didn't make much noise to cover outside
noise.

Big John


On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 05:24:47 GMT, "Yossarian" >
wrote:

>I'm sure you knew the base was there when you moved in, too :)
>
>"Big John" > wrote in message
...
>> 1949 Williams AFB, AZ
>>
>> I lived about 100 yards from tie down area where F-80's were run up
>> after maintenance. This normally started after mid night.
>>
>> Kept me awake for about a week. Nevr heard them for next 4 years.
>>
>> Some people just like to bitch.
>>
>> Big John
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 18:42:53 -0700, "hillbilly_hippo"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >Ohhhhhhhh man. What a bunch of nutbags. I simply cannot believe that a
>group
>> >of people can whine and bitch soooooo much! Geeze. I certainly hope none
>of
>> >them live near my airport, I'll be dodging birdshot from a crazy
>hillbilly
>> >while I'm turning final! Holy crap.
>> > I simply cannot believe that there is a person that posts there that
>is
>> >advocating banning medi-vac helicopters simply because the NOISE disturbs
>> >him! I swear.
>> >
>> >John Y.
>> >PP-ASEL
>> >
>>
>

[Continental Bill]

"Dan Luke" <c172rgATbellsouthDOTnet> wrote in message >...
> > > noise... go over to alt.activism.noise.polution
> >
> > Thankfully it appears that my ISP filters THAT particular group out...
>
> He misspelled it. It's alt.activism.noise.pollution (two l's)

I don't think I'd worry <too> much about those guys over at
alt.activism.noise.pollution. Of the twenty-five posts on the front
page, two posters are responsible for nineteen of them.

In a week they'll be over at alt.ban.guncontrol and a week after that
they'll be on alt.stop.personalwatercraft. Their attention spans are
way too short to really stick with anything for very long.

BillC85
Fitting the cowling on the Cassutt

[Dennis O'Connor]

The majority of helo airlifts are unjustified medically... This has been
researched by multiple different researchers with the same findings...
Horror stories of ambulances sitting at the scene holding the patient for
the arrival of the helo for longer than it would have taken them to drive
the route in the first place... Patients with non life threatening injuries
being airlifted, and on, and on... I could regale you with tales of my days
as an assistant coroner trying to reason with the police officer at the
scene who was just salivating to call a helo - but, this will get way too
long.. Further, helo airlifts have an astounding crash and burn statistical
rate... Ranks right up there with driving your Harley to the bar on New
Years Eve...

The helos cost a fortune to keep and to run, so they have to haul cases that
need not have been airlifted in order to have the cash flow to meet the
overhead...

Politics play the major role in the funding of hospital helos... I had a
conversation last week with the CEO of our hospital, which is just now
acquiring it's own helo... I asked him; Why are you getting a helo now when
xxx hospital's helo has been serving the city for years? With just the
trace of a smile he said; Well, for one you no longer sit on the executive
committee... (Guess how I voted every time it came up) And two, that helo
is flying around with xxx's name on the side... We can't have that!

Denny
"Judah" > wrote in message
...
> How much would it cost to get the ambulances to keep the sirens blasting
> during their ride?

[G.R. Patterson III]

Roger Halstead wrote:
>
> Even though he had some sympathy, he ruined his credibility as I had
> only made three passes climbing out over his house in 5 hours.

A similar character ruined his complaining about a blimp that went over his
house enroute to Solberg. This guy was trying to blame the noise on the airport
next door (Mannville). Winds were pretty high, so the blimp took a while to go
by. He claimed to the reporters that the blimp was so low that he could have
jumped up and touched the basket from his roof.

Blimps make pretty good radar signatures, and this one was on a flight plan.
The paper checked, and Newark radar had the blimp at 600 feet the whole way.

George Patterson
Brute force has an elegance all its own.

[C J Campbell]

There are plenty of nutcases around. So what if someone advocates banning
medevac helicopters because of the noise? Is anyone going to pay serious
attention to him?

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Bob Noel
at wrote on 8/15/03 12:08 PM:

> In article >,
> (Snowbird) wrote:
>
>> PS our airport gets a lot of noise complaints.
>
> heck, airports get noise complaints when no aircraft is even
> in the area.

I have no idea why people would complain about aircraft noise when the
majority of noise comes from ground-based vehicles. If you live relatively
near a busy thoroughfare, count the number of vehicles per minute that
rattle your windows, or otherwise shatter your peace and quiet.

Harleys, old pickups, souped-up cars--these have all done more to ruin my
hearing over the years than any airplane or helicopter.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> There are plenty of nutcases around. So what if someone advocates banning
> medevac helicopters because of the noise? Is anyone going to pay serious
> attention to him?
>

I think a good many people would pay serious attention to him.

[hillbilly_hippo]

> Airplanes interfering with your dog fence? Um, yeah. What these people
> really need are some tinfoil hats.
>
>


.......attached to a light socket. ;-)

John Y.
PP-ASEL

[Jim Baker]

"Big John" > wrote in message
...
> 1949 Williams AFB, AZ
>
> I lived about 100 yards from tie down area where F-80's were run up
> after maintenance. This normally started after mid night.
>
> Kept me awake for about a week. Nevr heard them for next 4 years.
>
> Some people just like to bitch.
>
> Big John
>
<snip>

LOL, Ditto, 1973-76, T-38's & T-37's

JB
T-38 IP

[Tom S.]

"Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
...
> I have no idea why people would complain about aircraft noise when the
> majority of noise comes from ground-based vehicles.

First of all, because there's not much to be envious about when it comes to
most ground-based vehicles. Secondly, because some people never outgrew the
"terrible two's".

Tom
--
"Federal personnel data show that just 434 civilian federal workers were
fired for poor performance in 2001.Just 210 non-defense workers,
or 1 in 5,000, were fired for poor performance. Firing rates were
similarly low in prior years, and are low across all agencies."

NOTE: "Poor performance" includes sexual harassment, theft,
assault, and other criminal actions.