Check in ...East Coast BLACKOUT

[Montblack]

How you folks "out east" doing tonight?

Check in when you get back up and running.

--
Montblack

[Greg Burkhart]

"Montblack" > wrote in message
.. .
> How you folks "out east" doing tonight?
>
> Check in when you get back up and running.

Figured they be on using their laptops hooked to cell phones by candle
light...
{;-)

[Peter R.]

Montblack ) wrote:

> How you folks "out east" doing tonight?
>
> Check in when you get back up and running.

We lost power, but were fortunate to have it come back on about four
hours later.

--
Peter

[Peter Gottlieb]

Power back on in Dobbs Ferry, NY at about 0730 local time.


"Montblack" > wrote in message
.. .
> How you folks "out east" doing tonight?
>
> Check in when you get back up and running.
>
> --
> Montblack
>
>

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Montblack" > said:
>How you folks "out east" doing tonight?
>
>Check in when you get back up and running.

Down from 4:30 pm to 6:10 am.

Man, I need a better UPS. This one cacked out in the time it took me to
recognize the beep and rush down the stairs.

--
Paul Tomblin >, not speaking for anybody
"I complained that finding a solution to problems with Microsoft software
would be impossible if profanity was blocked, as few people can discuss
Microsoft's programs without using profanity." DarrylJ on alt.folklore.urban

[CanadianPilot]

still no power at 10.28 am friday ontario
"Peter R." > wrote in message
ds.com...
> Montblack ) wrote:
>
> > How you folks "out east" doing tonight?
> >
> > Check in when you get back up and running.
>
> We lost power, but were fortunate to have it come back on about four
> hours later.
>
> --
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Tom Fleischman]

> > Montblack ) wrote:
> >
> > > How you folks "out east" doing tonight?
> > >
> > > Check in when you get back up and running.

My power finally came back on at around 01:30. Interestingly, 2 blocks
north, 2 blocks south and 1 block east had power by 22:00.

Go figure.

[Montblack]

("Greg Burkhart" wrote)
> Figured they be on using their laptops hooked to cell phones by candle
> light...

Find a news truck with a satellite dish, CNN, FOX, CBS, etc. Hijack the
truck - drive it around the corner and post back to rec.aviation*. They must
have some sort of satellite-internet uplink *somewhere* in there with all of
those wall mounted TV monitors.

Newsgroups aren't an obsession or even an addiction, I would call it more of
an acquired taste.

--
Montblack

[Peter R.]

Roger Halstead ) wrote:

> BTW, that "out east" is kind of a slight to the people who are without
> power. It extends to the west as far as (and apparently started in
> Ohio). It also covers a good portion of lower Michigan

Roger, any point east of California is out east to some! :)

--
Peter

[Roger Halstead]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 09:02:01 -0400, "Bob Chilcoat"
> wrote:

>I had dropped into Sky Manor Airport (N40) just before 4:00 for a drink
>(diet Coke) after flying up the Hudson with a couple of friends. A few
>minutes after 4:00 the lights went out for no more than 10 seconds and then
>came back on. We took off a bit later and when we got back to Somerset
>(SMQ) found out that most of the Northeast was blacked out. We had power at
>home. My next door neighbor got home from the City around nine having taken
>one of his company's helicopters from Manhattan to Newark. His company was
>charging $200 for a ride from Manhattan to EWR! Who says you can't make a
>small fortune in aviation?

All it takes to make a small fortune in aviation is to start out with
a big one. At $200 in a normal business helicopter they probably
weren't even covering the variable costs.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

[Roger Halstead]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 14:02:13 +0000 (UTC), (Paul
Tomblin) wrote:

>In a previous article, "Montblack" > said:
>>How you folks "out east" doing tonight?
>>
>>Check in when you get back up and running.
>
>Down from 4:30 pm to 6:10 am.
>
>Man, I need a better UPS. This one cacked out in the time it took me to
>recognize the beep and rush down the stairs.

I need three more. The one on this computer (which has a 17 inch LCD)
is good for about an hour. The other computers all have 19" CRTs and
no UPS. Those computers and monitors run close to 300 watts and it
requires turning the monitors on to shut the things down gracefully.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

[Roger Halstead]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 14:19:58 -0400, Peter R.
> wrote:

>Roger Halstead ) wrote:
>
>> BTW, that "out east" is kind of a slight to the people who are without
>> power. It extends to the west as far as (and apparently started in
>> Ohio). It also covers a good portion of lower Michigan
>
>Roger, any point east of California is out east to some! :)

Point taken<:-))

One thing that has changed...my posts are showing up right away...they
often take as long as 12 to 24 hours on some of the newsgroups.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Roger Halstead > said:
>On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 14:02:13 +0000 (UTC), (Paul
>Tomblin) wrote:
>>Man, I need a better UPS. This one cacked out in the time it took me to
>>recognize the beep and rush down the stairs.
>no UPS. Those computers and monitors run close to 300 watts and it
>requires turning the monitors on to shut the things down gracefully.

I can type "/sbin/shutdown -hf now" without a monitor. Now if only I'd
remember to plug the USB hub into the UPS so that the keyboard works...


--
Paul Tomblin >, not speaking for anybody
In 1665 Issac Newton became discouraged when he fell up a flight of
stairs.

[Evan Hunt]

Don't blame me, I voted for "Dave Stadt" >.
>One government nit wit gave out a WEB address on a news program for those
>without power to log onto to get status of the problem. Announcer made a
>comment about the guy being out of touch with reality and dumped the phone
>line.

Was that Ted Koppel? If so, it was a crank call, from a website that
does things like that and puts the audio clips online. Pretty feeble.
(I'm not gonna mention the URL, because they just want attention and
I see no reason to give it to them.)

--
Evan Hunt
ethanol at armory dot com

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, (Evan Hunt) said:
>Don't blame me, I voted for "Dave Stadt" >.
>>One government nit wit gave out a WEB address on a news program for those
>>without power to log onto to get status of the problem. Announcer made a
>>comment about the guy being out of touch with reality and dumped the phone
>>line.
>
>Was that Ted Koppel? If so, it was a crank call, from a website that
>does things like that and puts the audio clips online. Pretty feeble.

Koppel didn't even catch on when the "spokesman" said they were
communicating with the people in the subways with "wireless telepathy".

Neither the perpetrator, nor Koppel, nor Koppel's staff came out looking
particularly smart in that exchange.

--
Paul Tomblin >, not speaking for anybody
http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/film/50reasons.html
"Apparently they made the beasts [Uruk Hai] by crossing Orcs, Goblins and
the French."

[Tom S.]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Roger Halstead" > wrote in message
>
> > One thing that has changed...my posts are showing up right away...they
> > often take as long as 12 to 24 hours on some of the newsgroups.
> >
> > Roger Halstead
> *****************************
>
> Really? Mine commonly show up within 2 or 3 minutes.

Mine show up in seconds. Hit "send", then "refresh" and there it is.

[Tom S.]

"Tom S." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Morgans" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Roger Halstead" > wrote in message
> >
> > > One thing that has changed...my posts are showing up right away...they
> > > often take as long as 12 to 24 hours on some of the newsgroups.
> > >
> > > Roger Halstead
> > *****************************
> >
> > Really? Mine commonly show up within 2 or 3 minutes.
>
> Mine show up in seconds. Hit "send", then "refresh" and there it is.

Yup!

[Tom S.]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
.com...
> One government nit wit gave out a WEB address on a news program for those
> without power to log onto to get status of the problem. Announcer made a
> comment about the guy being out of touch with reality and dumped the phone
> line.
>
Like the Dilbert cartoon:

Dilbert to network guy: "Hey, my network connection is dead".
Network guy: "Send me an e-mail about it. I can't do anything unless you
send me a repair request."
Dilbert: "But my network connection is dead."
Network guy: "So fill out the online request form".

[Tom S.]

"Evan Hunt" > wrote in message
. ..
> Don't blame me, I voted for "Dave Stadt" >.
> >One government nit wit gave out a WEB address on a news program for those
> >without power to log onto to get status of the problem. Announcer made a
> >comment about the guy being out of touch with reality and dumped the
phone
> >line.
>
> Was that Ted Koppel? If so, it was a crank call, from a website that
> does things like that and puts the audio clips online. Pretty feeble.
> (I'm not gonna mention the URL, because they just want attention and
> I see no reason to give it to them.)

It's http://www.whitehouse.gov, right?

[Tom S.]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> >Was that Ted Koppel? If so, it was a crank call, from a website that
> >does things like that and puts the audio clips online. Pretty feeble.
>
> Koppel didn't even catch on when the "spokesman" said they were
> communicating with the people in the subways with "wireless telepathy".
>
> Neither the perpetrator, nor Koppel, nor Koppel's staff came out looking
> particularly smart in that exchange.
>

Nothing new there.

[Wizard of Draws]

Roger Halstead wrote:

>
> One thing that has changed...my posts are showing up right away...they
> often take as long as 12 to 24 hours on some of the newsgroups.
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
> www.rogerhalstead.com
> N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

I'm only getting half of my normal allotment of SPAM. Sliver lining and
all that.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

"Cartoons with a Touch of Magic"
http://www.wizardofdraws.com
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

Arnold for Governor!
http://www.wizardofdraws.com/store/terminator.html

[Roger Halstead]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 13:31:47 -0700, "Tom S." > wrote:

>
>"Tom S." > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "Morgans" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > "Roger Halstead" > wrote in message
>> >
>> > > One thing that has changed...my posts are showing up right away...they
>> > > often take as long as 12 to 24 hours on some of the newsgroups.
>> > >
>> > > Roger Halstead
>> > *****************************
>> >
>> > Really? Mine commonly show up within 2 or 3 minutes.
>>
>> Mine show up in seconds. Hit "send", then "refresh" and there it is.
>
>Yup!
>
Rub it in! Rub it in! <:-))

Newsgroup service here has been really poor for some time. Not sure
why, but prior to yesterday I could count on it taking as much as 12
to 24 hours for my post to appear. Yet I might see two or three
answers prior to my original showing up.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

[Roger Halstead]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:21:19 +0000 (UTC), (Paul
Tomblin) wrote:

>In a previous article, Roger Halstead > said:
>>On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 14:02:13 +0000 (UTC), (Paul
>>Tomblin) wrote:
>>>Man, I need a better UPS. This one cacked out in the time it took me to
>>>recognize the beep and rush down the stairs.
>>no UPS. Those computers and monitors run close to 300 watts and it
>>requires turning the monitors on to shut the things down gracefully.
>
>I can type "/sbin/shutdown -hf now" without a monitor. Now if only I'd
>remember to plug the USB hub into the UPS so that the keyboard works...

It's always something. <LOL> That's what we get for using so may
labor saving devices.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

[Roger Halstead]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:40:11 GMT, Wizard of Draws
> wrote:

>Roger Halstead wrote:
>
>>
>> One thing that has changed...my posts are showing up right away...they
>> often take as long as 12 to 24 hours on some of the newsgroups.
>>
>> Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
>> www.rogerhalstead.com
>> N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)
>
>I'm only getting half of my normal allotment of SPAM. Sliver lining and
>all that.
Ur right...it is down...Only 48 so far and almost all of those were
filtered out. It's usually about 60 a day for the past couple of
months....

However if you want spam to go down you need to shut the power off in
Florida, not the NE.

BTW, virtually every post tonight has been hit send, refresh and I
find it. Refreshing.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

[John E. Carty]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
ds.com...
> Roger Halstead ) wrote:
>
> > BTW, that "out east" is kind of a slight to the people who are without
> > power. It extends to the west as far as (and apparently started in
> > Ohio). It also covers a good portion of lower Michigan
>
> Roger, any point east of California is out east to some! :)
>
> --
> Peter
>
That should read Back East and Out West :-)

[G.R. Patterson III]

Wizard of Draws wrote:
>
> I'm only getting half of my normal allotment of SPAM. Sliver lining and
> all that.

I've been told that much of the telemarketing business is located in Toronto,
which was affected by the blackout. Wonder if it's a big center for spam
generators?

George Patterson
Brute force has an elegance all its own.

[Dr. Anthony J. Lomenzo]

"Peter R." wrote:
>
> Dr. Anthony J. Lomenzo wrote:
>
> > I had to add this one...so about the 5th hour of the power outage my
> > wife and I are listening to the portable radio and this lady calls in
> > and we hear... "Perhaps it's times like these when it's inconvenient to
> > lose power of course but then it's also a time for the family to finally
> > gather together and share long overdue quality time together" and within
> > moments of that comment, so help me, we hear from the background a
> > rather blustery, "Hey! Gimme that friggin' flashlight, Joey, or I'll bop
> > you with it!" So much for family huddled 'quality time.'
>
> That is classic! It must have been hilarious to hear it in real time.
>
> --
> Peter


Peter:

Normally they have these 3 seconds [or more, dunno] delays for such
things [although they themselves were on generator power and possibly
the more fancy electronic gizmos were not functioning...dunno] and there
is always the possibility of a set-up because when there's just nothing
on in those kind of large area emergency situations, radio stations turn
to the phones for folks to essentially check-in and give reports but the
stuff coming in is amazing ranging from those who feel the end is upon
us and thus all should repent or that it's a terrorist movement of some
sort and others, let us say, by the speech and demeanor being obvious
'victims of the thirst' [or grape] as the Irish brethren would say.

This one was just totally unexpected BUT as anyone who has children can
testify [or recall], it 'can' get hairy as time goes on and the kids
have nothing to do when candles and essentially staring at each other or
the ceiling is the sum total of passing the hours [I pulled out the old
folk guitar but, hey, how long can I keep that up when the fingers begin
hurting after so many years of non use!] beyond the first 3 or 4...or
so. And 91 degrees heat and 100% humidity notwithstanding. Yet, did you
catch most of those news report beginnings, Peter, where the classic
[under]-statement was "...Well, this was not supposed to happen
folks...but it did!" and then the equally classic aftermath of such
things: the fixing of the blame. So far, I've heard the fault put on
everything from the 'Big Apple' to Canada to Ohio [!] to, you guessed
it, Al Quaeda [how the hell is that properly spelled anyway!? I've seen
about 5 different versions!] operative machinations.


Doc Tony

[Robert Perkins]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:11:16 GMT, "Dave Stadt" >
wrote:

>One government nit wit gave out a WEB address on a news program for those
>without power to log onto to get status of the problem. Announcer made a
>comment about the guy being out of touch with reality and dumped the phone
>line.
Uh... modern laptops connected to a land telephone line would have had
at least 4 hours of battery life for a careful user to shepherd all
the way through the crisis, to get updates.

But an AM or shortwave radio would have lasted much much longer.

Rob

[Robert Perkins]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:03:28 -0500, Big John >
wrote:

>Texas grid did not go down. It's not hooked to anyone else.

Hey I noticed that on the interconnect map. Wonder why that is when
everyone else is connected to a much larger grid.

Out west here the grid is designed to partition itself as
automatically as possible if something happens to go wrong. I seem to
recall that in the mid-nineties it kept the big-area states here from
all collapsing when that Idaho power plant went belly-up. From this
layman's perspective that's pretty neat engineering.

It seems to me that the most problematic part of the national system
is that northeast interconnect. The rest of us seem to be getting
along pretty well with five or six-nines reliability on the system.
Heck, even in the northeast with the outage this week I'd say they're
getting six nines.

Rob

[Big John]

In this mornings paper they reported about the guy on the radio in the
mid west that for over two hours kept reporting the dire consequences
of power outages around his station (city). With the length of time (2
hrs) he 'reported', people began to believe and started to panic.

Can you yell fire in a crowded room with the doors locked and get away
with it. His spoof was not free speech. They should hang the guy.

Big John


On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:54:15 -0500, "Montblack"
> wrote:

>How you folks "out east" doing tonight?
>
>Check in when you get back up and running.

[Roger Halstead]

On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 18:46:20 GMT, Robert Perkins
> wrote:

>On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:11:16 GMT, "Dave Stadt" >
>wrote:
>
>>One government nit wit gave out a WEB address on a news program for those
>>without power to log onto to get status of the problem. Announcer made a
>>comment about the guy being out of touch with reality and dumped the phone
>>line.
>Uh... modern laptops connected to a land telephone line would have had
>at least 4 hours of battery life for a careful user to shepherd all
>the way through the crisis, to get updates.
>
>But an AM or shortwave radio would have lasted much much longer.

Although the telephone companies use DC and *HUGE* battery banks there
were several that did go down.

I wonder how they backup the cell towers and how long the will stay up
without the power lines.

Of the modern countries the US is ranked as the lowest when it comes
to cell phones as the primary phone.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)
>
>Rob

[Dave Stadt]

"Robert Perkins" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:11:16 GMT, "Dave Stadt" >
> wrote:
>
> >One government nit wit gave out a WEB address on a news program for those
> >without power to log onto to get status of the problem. Announcer made a
> >comment about the guy being out of touch with reality and dumped the
phone
> >line.
> Uh... modern laptops connected to a land telephone line would have had
> at least 4 hours of battery life for a careful user to shepherd all
> the way through the crisis, to get updates.

Uh.....as they watched their solar powered TVs to get the WEB address.

> But an AM or shortwave radio would have lasted much much longer.

Only if powered by batteries and fresh ones at that.

> Rob

[Robert Perkins]

On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 23:38:39 GMT, "Dave Stadt" >
wrote:

>> Uh... modern laptops connected to a land telephone line would have had
>> at least 4 hours of battery life for a careful user to shepherd all
>> the way through the crisis, to get updates.
>
>Uh.....as they watched their solar powered TVs to get the WEB address.

Doh! Hadn't thought of that one. Proves how ubiquitous all this stuff
is...

OK, I give. The gummint rep wasn't thinking clearly, unless he was
making a nationwide announcement so we voyeurs out west could watch
the train wreck without calling into an agency's office?

Nah.

Rob

[G.R. Patterson III]

Roger Halstead wrote:
>
> Of the modern countries the US is ranked as the lowest when it comes
> to cell phones as the primary phone.

That's because we have the most advanced landline system.

George Patterson
Brute force has an elegance all its own.

[Tom S.]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Wizard of Draws wrote:
> >
> > I'm only getting half of my normal allotment of SPAM. Sliver lining and
> > all that.
>
> I've been told that much of the telemarketing business is located in
Toronto,
> which was affected by the blackout. Wonder if it's a big center for spam
> generators?

Indeed, it's guesses that 90% of SPAM now originates offshore, with Canada,
China and Brazil being the worst players.

[G.R. Patterson III]

"Tom S." wrote:
>
> When I was stationed in Germany in the early 70's, a phone was about $100 a
> month and long distance was pretty much out of the question. LD calls had to
> go through the operator. When I got back, the phone was $11 a month. Wonder
> what it costs now.

They privatized the phone system in the 90's. It may or may not be cheaper,
but it's easier for German people to get a phone now than it used to be. The
Indian phone system is still a nightmare, however. Cell or satellite is the
only real option there.

George Patterson
Brute force has an elegance all its own.

[Morgans]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Roger Halstead wrote:
> >
> > Of the modern countries the US is ranked as the lowest when it comes
> > to cell phones as the primary phone.
>
> That's because we have the most advanced landline system.
>
> George Patterson
>
I was in Ecquador a couple of years ago, and they have payphones sprinkled
around the country that have cell antennas right on the booth. Even more of
a surprise was the company sponsoring them. None other than "southern bell"
right down to the very emblem I get on my phone bill!
--
Jim in NC--

[Drew Hamilton]

Montblack > wrote:
>Check in when you get back up and running.

I'm checking in now, Saturday night, having just got back up and running.

Actually, my power was only out for 20 hours or so, but my Internet
connection was gone for another 30 after that.

- awh

[Jim Fisher]

"Roger Halstead" > wrote in message
> I wonder how they backup the cell towers and how long the will stay up
> without the power lines.

You ever notice those little "dog houses" that sit beside the tower? It
houses a generator. Usually powered by natural gas so it's fuel supply is
virtually limitless.

--
Jim Fisher

[Robert Perkins]

On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 16:09:20 -0500, Jim Herring >
wrote:

>Electric companies
>outside the state have tried to get the Feds to force connection because
>the grid is so big it they believe it should be under control of the
>Feds. Hasn't happened, yet.

Hey, as long as the lines don't cross the state border, I say don't
mess with Texas.

California should try it. Then their foolish crises wouldn't affect
the entire Western United States. Seen my power bill just about double
since Enron played its idiot games with us all.

Rob

[Martin Hotze]

On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 18:33:16 -0700, Tom S. wrote:

>> Roger Halstead wrote:
>> >
>> > Of the modern countries the US is ranked as the lowest when it comes
>> > to cell phones as the primary phone.
>>
>> That's because we have the most advanced landline system.


IBTD.

>And, for all we gripe about it, a phone here costs about $20-30 a month.
>Most of the rest of the world pay from two to five times (or more) that
>amount.

ah!

>When I was stationed in Germany in the early 70's, a phone was about $100 a

oh yes. Hardfacts from 30 years back.

>month and long distance was pretty much out of the question. LD calls had to
>go through the operator. When I got back, the phone was $11 a month. Wonder
>what it costs now.

Prices are rather similar, for about this rate you can have a ISDN line.
Calling rates dropped dramatically in hte last year. For me it is cheaper
to call from Europe to the US than calling home when in the US.

actually: in Europe you have a quote of 60 to 90% of cell phone users
(Italy is leasing).
most of the telephone landlines are not older than 50 years and you can
have mostly everywhere a 56K modem conect (only few use 33.6 modems).

the European power system is designed for stability and we have one shared
power network.

to see the difference before and after the power-outage:
Satellite Views Of The Blackout

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/nightlights/blackout081403-20hrsbefore-text.jpg

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/nightlights/blackout081503-7hrsafter-text.jpg

It was a former US energy minister who said the US is world leader in
economy etc, with a 3rd world-like power network.

#m
--
http://www.usawatch.org/ http://www.alternet.org/
Don't like your neighbor? -> https://tips.fbi.gov/

Bombing for peace is like ****ing for virginity.

[Martin Hotze]

On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 21:59:22 -0400, G.R. Patterson III wrote:

>They privatized the phone system in the 90's. It may or may not be cheaper,
>but it's easier for German people to get a phone now than it used to be.

At least true for Austria: You are guaranteed an installation within 6 days
of your order.

#m

--
http://www.usawatch.org/ http://www.alternet.org/
Don't like your neighbor? -> https://tips.fbi.gov/

Bombing for peace is like ****ing for virginity.

[Roger Halstead]

On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 01:13:19 GMT, "Peter Gottlieb" >
wrote:

>Hook up a cable to the UPS comm port and set it up to do an orderly shutdown
>at 10% battery life remaining.

That is the way mine is set up for the one computer.
Unfortunately the second computer is pretty much on its own.
Hence the desire to get three more UPS.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)
>
>
<snip>

[Dr. Anthony J. Lomenzo]

Jim Fisher wrote:
>
> "Roger Halstead" > wrote in message
> > I wonder how they backup the cell towers and how long the will stay up
> > without the power lines.
>
> You ever notice those little "dog houses" that sit beside the tower? It
> houses a generator. Usually powered by natural gas so it's fuel supply is
> virtually limitless.
>
> --
> Jim Fisher


While we're on the subject of 'juice' so to speak, in every power outage
up here in the north country [upstate NY] the phones are mercifully
still much welcomed operation but, here's the thing, while it's common
knowledge that the phone system wires carry their own juice, well, even
those wires have to have a source for their power generation! Where is
it and note that even in extensive power grid failures like the nation
just experienced, the phones came through! So where is their source? Or
does the phone system commonly LOW DC voltage and thus absence of any
needed AC 'push' amperage [dunno, I'm asking!] permit a DC generator
system that can virtually run with no problems!? Any phone techs in the
house?

Of note...I have an ARO [amateur radio operator] amigo in Russia and we
converse doing the low power and rig/computer assisted RTTY [radio
teletype] thing and he believes it's utterly 'amazing' that Americans
and canadians have such 'up time' telephone and power generation systems
[despite the occasional grid foul-ups and assorted local woes ] where he
says in Russia it is a literal 'treat' to get uninterrupted phone and
power service for more than a few 'days' without one or both failing or
in fact being shut off [!] for one reason or another ...yet the attitude
there is 'so what else is new' where here [USA/Canada] it's good for
talk show circuit and blame mongering fodder ..... for days!

Doc Tony

[Dr. Anthony J. Lomenzo]

"Dr. Anthony J. Lomenzo" wrote:
>
> Jim Fisher wrote:
> >
> > "Roger Halstead" > wrote in message
> > > I wonder how they backup the cell towers and how long the will stay up
> > > without the power lines.
> >
> > You ever notice those little "dog houses" that sit beside the tower? It
> > houses a generator. Usually powered by natural gas so it's fuel supply is
> > virtually limitless.
> >
> > --
> > Jim Fisher
>
> While we're on the subject of 'juice' so to speak, in every power outage
> up here in the north country [upstate NY] the phones are mercifully
> still much welcomed operation but, here's the thing, while it's common
> knowledge that the phone system wires carry their own juice, well, even
> those wires have to have a source for their power generation! Where is
> it and note that even in extensive power grid failures like the nation
> just experienced, the phones came through! So where is their source? Or
> does the phone system commonly LOW DC voltage and thus absence of any
> needed AC 'push' amperage [dunno, I'm asking!] permit a DC generator
> system that can virtually run with no problems!? Any phone techs in the
> house?
>
> Of note...I have an ARO [amateur radio operator] amigo in Russia and we
> converse doing the low power and rig/computer assisted RTTY [radio
> teletype] thing and he believes it's utterly 'amazing' that Americans
> and canadians have

Whoops! Didn't hit the cap letter shift key there...make that to read
"Canadians" ! What's that? Bizzzzz! Honest typo above ...proof....why
would I correctly capitalize 'Canada' down below? So there! ;-)

>such 'up time' telephone and power generation systems
> [despite the occasional grid foul-ups and assorted local woes ] where he
> says in Russia it is a literal 'treat' to get uninterrupted phone and
> power service for more than a few 'days' without one or both failing or
> in fact being shut off [!] for one reason or another ...yet the attitude
> there is 'so what else is new' where here [USA/Canada] it's good for
> talk show circuit and blame mongering fodder ..... for days!
>
> Doc Tony

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
> While we're on the subject of 'juice' so to speak, in every power outage
> up here in the north country [upstate NY] the phones are mercifully
> still much welcomed operation but, here's the thing, while it's common
> knowledge that the phone system wires carry their own juice, well, even
> those wires have to have a source for their power generation! Where is
> it and note that even in extensive power grid failures like the nation
> just experienced, the phones came through! So where is their source?

All telco gear that I've ever heard of runs on 48V DC, supplied by huge
banks of lead-acid batteries. The batteries are constantly being
recharged from commercial power (what's known as "float service"). If
you lose commercial power, there's supposed to be enough battery power
to keep things going for 24 hours.

In addition, central offices and other switching facilities have
emergency backup generators. As soon as the commercial power goes down,
the generators are supposed to crank up and keep things going for as
long as the diesel fuel holds out.

Of course, it doesn't always work that way. I remember something like
10-15 years ago, a major long-distance switch in Manhattan went down. I
don't remember the details, but it was a combination of a generator
either failing or being taken out of service for testing and an alarm
being disconnected. Power was lost and the switch kept on chugging for
about a day on battery without anybody noticing. Eventually, the
batteries were drained, and the switch died (at which point somebody
finally noticed). Unbeliveable stupidity. I assume heads rolled over
that.

[Dr. Anthony J. Lomenzo]

Roy Smith wrote:
>
> In article >,
> > While we're on the subject of 'juice' so to speak, in every power outage
> > up here in the north country [upstate NY] the phones are mercifully
> > still much welcomed operation but, here's the thing, while it's common
> > knowledge that the phone system wires carry their own juice, well, even
> > those wires have to have a source for their power generation! Where is
> > it and note that even in extensive power grid failures like the nation
> > just experienced, the phones came through! So where is their source?
>
> All telco gear that I've ever heard of runs on 48V DC, supplied by huge
> banks of lead-acid batteries. The batteries are constantly being
> recharged from commercial power (what's known as "float service"). If
> you lose commercial power, there's supposed to be enough battery power
> to keep things going for 24 hours.
>
> In addition, central offices and other switching facilities have
> emergency backup generators. As soon as the commercial power goes down,
> the generators are supposed to crank up and keep things going for as
> long as the diesel fuel holds out.
>
> Of course, it doesn't always work that way. I remember something like
> 10-15 years ago, a major long-distance switch in Manhattan went down. I
> don't remember the details, but it was a combination of a generator
> either failing or being taken out of service for testing and an alarm
> being disconnected. Power was lost and the switch kept on chugging for
> about a day on battery without anybody noticing. Eventually, the
> batteries were drained, and the switch died (at which point somebody
> finally noticed). Unbeliveable stupidity. I assume heads rolled over
> that.


Thank you, Roy! I've often found that questions float around [this one
in fact came up during the recent outage] which folks, myself inclusive,
take for granted the known 'phones still work during power outages' BUT
when my wife asked me the 'why' of that, well, it was one of those
tongue-in-cheek but true nevertheless '...can't say I'm familiar with
that, honey...' [*translation: dunno!] chestnuts. ;-)

Doc Tony
;-)

[Robert Perkins]

On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 13:44:25 -0400, "Dr. Anthony J. Lomenzo"
> wrote:

>the phone system wires carry their own juice, well, even
>those wires have to have a source for their power generation! Where is
>it and note that even in extensive power grid failures like the nation
>just experienced, the phones came through! So where is their source? Or
>does the phone system commonly LOW DC voltage and thus absence of any
>needed AC 'push' amperage [dunno, I'm asking!] permit a DC generator
>system that can virtually run with no problems!? Any phone techs in the
>house?

I used to work for ALLTEL, a medium sized Incumbent Local Exchange
Carrier, in the United States.

A telephone system's local loop in the United States, the two pair of
wires which connect to your home (only one of which is usually in use,
so the other might not be connected to the entire system) are wired to
a bank of batteries which provide +48vDC. There are generators which
keep the batteries charged, but the phone system powers its equipment
with the DC electricity from those batteries.

And, yes, as the price for maintaining that monopoly all those years,
AT&T was required to meet uptime standards and connect to anyone who
wanted the service, no matter where he lived. The result after several
decades was a remarkably complete and nearly ubiquitous telephone
system nationwide. The Babybells and the other ILEC companies which
survived them still have to meet those requirements. "Cable
telephone", IP telephony, and cell phone providers do not.

That's why the system glitches with "cable telephone" service, small
though they were, were so surprisingly significant to people; at least
two generations of Americans grew up without ever experiencing a
telephone infrastructure failure of any kind.

But, it's also why the "last mile" of high-speed Internet connectivity
has been so difficult to make ubiquitous. That nine-nines-reliable
phone network is only reliable for 3-minute-average telephone
conversations nationwide.

But it all held true until the Internet and cell phones came along,
and all the network provisioning assumptions the Bells made got shot
to gehenna when people nailed up their phone lines to have a 24/7
Internet connection and started to have three or more telephone
numbers per household. It was only then that we started hearing "we
can't do it" on a regular basis, and only then that the area codes
started to change a lot.

Over in Europe and in the "Third World" nations, they're still
building out a telephone network for their people, what with costs
having been so much higher and brain trust so much more expensive,
before some very recent political changes were made. That's why those
systems appear to be more advanced; the initial investments in network
infrastructure were made far later. The older infrastructure in North
America and (to a slightly lesser extent) Western Europe still works
just fine for what most people want.

Rob

[G.R. Patterson III]

"Dr. Anthony J. Lomenzo" wrote:
>
> While we're on the subject of 'juice' so to speak, in every power outage
> up here in the north country [upstate NY] the phones are mercifully
> still much welcomed operation but, here's the thing, while it's common
> knowledge that the phone system wires carry their own juice, well, even
> those wires have to have a source for their power generation! Where is
> it and note that even in extensive power grid failures like the nation
> just experienced, the phones came through! So where is their source?

The basic phone system runs on 48 volt DC. Most switches are located in
"Central Offices". These are manned stations. These contain battery banks,
which are constantly charged by commercial power supplies. Each office has
diesel generators to power chargers in the event of a power loss.

Developed areas which are not fairly close to small cities (or larger metro
areas) may connect to a "remote switching unit". These are located in unmanned
offices. These offices have backup power of some sort, usually diesel, but it
is expected that field personel will come out within a day or two to make sure
everything's OK. They cannot run indefinitely in backup mode.

Areas which are located far enough from the office will be served by digital
communication means. Multiplexed varieties of these systems are used in high
traffic areas, whether close to the C.O. or not. These digital centers and
optional multiplexers are located in unmanned stations. In the northeast, these
are usually underground in "controlled environment vaults". These CEVs have
battery backup power, but usually don't have generators. This requires that
field personel show up shortly with backup generators in an extended power
loss.

From your viewpoint, it doesn't matter if the CEV went down, the RSU went down,
or the CO went down. If any of the three happen, your phone is dead.

George Patterson
Brute force has an elegance all its own.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Roy Smith wrote:
>
> Of course, it doesn't always work that way. I remember something like
> 10-15 years ago, a major long-distance switch in Manhattan went down.

I was working for Bell Communications Research at the time. As I recall, it
was a CEV containing multiplexing and digitizing equipment. A lot of Wall
Street traffic went through there. It did not have its own backup generators,
and, as you stated, someone disabled the alarm after it went off. Normally,
field crews would be sent out with portable generators before shutting the
alarm off, but someone screwed up.

Yes, heads rolled.

George Patterson
Brute force has an elegance all its own.

[Montblack]

"Robert Perkins"
<snip>
> A telephone system's local loop in the United States, the two pair of
> wires which connect to your home (only one of which is usually in use,
> so the other might not be connected to the entire system) are wired to
> a bank of batteries which provide +48vDC.

For anyone who doesn't already know:

High speed DSL uses the second (home phone) wire for the computer downloads
and uploads, leaving the first (home phone) wire available for the actual
phone. This is why DSL customers can talk on the phone *and* be on the
internet - at the same time.

$25 for DSL hookup with Qwest (640K)
$19 for DSL ISP service with our old ISP company
------------------
$44 total ....per month for (24/7) 640K DSL

--
Montblack

[Peter Gottlieb]

"Montblack" > wrote in message
.. .
> High speed DSL uses the second (home phone) wire for the computer
downloads
> and uploads, leaving the first (home phone) wire available for the actual
> phone. This is why DSL customers can talk on the phone *and* be on the
> internet - at the same time.

DSL runs on the same single phone line pair as voice. It uses frequencies
higher than those used for voice. It does not require a separate pair,
although sometimes it is set up this way for various reasons.

[Newps]

Montblack wrote:


>
> Now I'm confused. Is my DSL running at higher frequencies, over the same
> (single) wire strand that my voice is running on? Or is it running on the
> second wire strand, in my standard household wire - which contains 2 wire
> strands? Or is it using both strands?

It takes two wires to have a voice line. There are typically 4 wires in
a residential phone line; red, green, yellow and black. Normally the
first phone number uses the red and green wires. The other two will be
for your second phone number, should you get one. The DSL uses the same
two wires as your first phone number, with a filter to keep the two
things separate.

[Big John]

To continue a sub thread of a sub thread, etc.

I installed the ADSL system and then had Telco tell me that they made
a mistake and I was not close enough to their switch (for it to
operate :o( so went to Road Runner (cable modem)

As some have said, the digital signals are above the voice range of
frequencies. When you install ADSL on your phone system, you get a
filter that goes in line just ahead of EACH telephone. It is a low
pass filter and only passes voice frequencies. The high frequencies
(on same twisted pair) contain the data (1's and 0"s) that the
computer uses for the high speed modems (ADSL).

It's kind of like having your cake and eating it also. Low frequencies
voice and high frequencies data.

My explanation is basically correct. May have missed crossing some
"T's" and dotting "I's". but is "close enough for government work".

Enjoy the high speed connections to Internet.

Big John


On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:38:55 GMT, Robert Moore
> wrote:

>"Montblack" wrote
>> Now I'm confused. Is my DSL running at higher frequencies, over
>> the same (single) wire strand that my voice is running on? Or is
>> it running on the second wire strand, in my standard household
>> wire - which contains 2 wire strands? Or is it using both
>> strands?
>
>Do you know something that I don't?
>
>How does anything electrical work with only one wire
>(conductor)?
>
>Hmmm....maybe my 1950's electrical engineering studies
>at Georgia Tech are outdated.
>
>Bob Moore

[Russell Kent]

Montblack wrote:

> Now I'm confused. Is my DSL running at higher frequencies, over the same
> (single) wire strand that my voice is running on? Or is it running on the
> second wire strand, in my standard household wire - which contains 2 wire
> strands? Or is it using both strands?

It depends. Read on.

Newps replied:

> It takes two wires to have a voice line. There are typically 4 wires in a
> residential phone line; red, green, yellow and black. Normally the first
> phone number uses the red and green wires. The other two will be for your
> second phone number, should you get one. The DSL uses the same two wires as
> your first phone number, with a filter to keep the two things separate.

Many houses with DSL are wired as Newps writes, but not all. DSL operates at
frequencies that are unused by "plain old telephone system" (POTS); like 20KHz
and up. Therefore the phone company can provide DSL without stringing new
copper from the central office to the home (which would be a *huge* cost),
provided the quality of the line is up to the task (this is the physics behind
the "X,000 ft rule", where "X" is 18 or 20 or so). Putting the DSL signal on
the voice pair usually requires a high frequency attentuator be placed at each
phone, however.

Some neighborhoods, like mine, are wired with optical fiber to the pedestal (in
the alley, shared by several homes), and then copper from the pedestal to the
outlet. Since I only have one landline (red-green), the telephone company
opted to use the second copper pair (yellow-black) as the DSL line. This saved
me the hassle of having the DSL filters (high freqency attenuators) at each
phone.

Russell Kent

[Montblack]

("Newps" wrote)
> It takes two wires to have a voice line. There are typically 4 wires in
> a residential phone line; red, green, yellow and black. Normally the
> first phone number uses the red and green wires. The other two will be
> for your second phone number, should you get one. The DSL uses the same
> two wires as your first phone number, with a filter to keep the two
> things separate.

Looks like a clear explanation. Thanks.

--
Montblack

[Roy Smith]

"Montblack" > wrote:
> My comment was home phone "wire" (singular) + DSL wire (singular) = 1
> standard household phone wire pair. Maybe could have been more clear. I
> meant "each" wire inside the pair. You (and Peter Gottlieb) read 2 separate
> pair of wires - I think.

I'm not at all sure what to make of that. In phone-speak, nobody ever
talks about "wires" or "strands". You talk about "pairs". A 2-pair
cable will have in it 4 wires:

blue w/ white stripes
white w/ blue stripes
orange w/ white stripes
white w/ orange stripes

The blue/white pair is pair #1, and the two wires which make up this
pair are twisted around each other. The orange/white pair is pair #2,
and are likewise twisted around each other. If you've got 4-pair cable
(pretty common), pairs 3 & 4 will be green-white and brown-white (I hope
I got that right). The color code goes on for hundreds of combinations.
This kind of cable is commonly known as UTP (Unshielded Twisted Pair).

Older houses might have "quad" cable, which has 4 wires colored red,
green, black, and yellow. Pair #1 is red/green, pair #2 is
black/yellow. You don't see this much any more. Its fine for voice,
but I'm not sure DSL can run over quad cable (because the wires are not
twisted into pairs, the electrical characteristics are inferior to the
twisted pair cable described above).

> Now I'm confused. Is my DSL running at higher frequencies, over the same
> (single) wire strand that my voice is running on?

Ugh. Again, not sure what to make of this. Your voice service is not
running on a "single wire strand", it's running on a single pair. The
most common type of residential service has two pairs going to your
house. As originally envisioned, the second pair would be used for a
second phone line, or possibly as a spare if the first one went bad.

Depending on how the local telco and DSL providers get along, your DSL
service might be on the same pair as your phone service, or it might be
on the other pair. In either case, it is certainly running at higher
frequencies.

[Aardvarks]

Robert Moore wrote:
> "Montblack" wrote
>
>>Now I'm confused. Is my DSL running at higher frequencies, over
>>the same (single) wire strand that my voice is running on? Or is
>>it running on the second wire strand, in my standard household
>>wire - which contains 2 wire strands? Or is it using both
>>strands?
>
>
> Do you know something that I don't?
>
> How does anything electrical work with only one wire
> (conductor)?
>
> Hmmm....maybe my 1950's electrical engineering studies
> at Georgia Tech are outdated.
>
> Bob Moore
see
http://computer.howstuffworks.com/dsl2.htm

A simple explanation.
:)

WW

[Russell Kent]

Montblack wrote:

> The DSL person explained it to me that each household phone line actually
> had two wires in it - DSL uses one, voice the other. I think my "strand"
> count is off by a factor of 2(?). More?

The DSL person may have not used precisely correct terminology. The phone
service line (the "network interface"), and the phone wiring within the
house, each have 4 conductors (provided the house was wired within the last
~35 years). By industry standard, these 4 conductors are colored red, green,
yellow, and black, and are paired red-green and yellow-black. The primary
(or only) phone number ("line") in a household will invariably be assigned to
red-green. The secondary phone line will be assigned to yellow-black. In
some neighborhoods, one can get a second phone activated simply by purchasing
a 2-to-1 phone adapter and calling Ma Bell for a phone computer change.

Russell Kent

[Roy Smith]

"Montblack" > wrote:
> The DSL person explained it to me that each household phone line actually
> had two wires in it - DSL uses one, voice the other.

If that's what he said, he's wrong.

> Here's what I really know about DSL ....$44 per month.

To be honest, that's all you should really need to know. The key to
making technology usable by the public is to make it simple to use.
Take this box, plug it in, send us $44/month. Sounds about the right
level of complexity to me.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Montblack wrote:
>
> My comment was home phone "wire" (singular) + DSL wire (singular) = 1
> standard household phone wire pair. Maybe could have been more clear. I
> meant "each" wire inside the pair. You (and Peter Gottlieb) read 2 separate
> pair of wires - I think.

There's no way any phone service can use a single wire. Phone service, like
electrical service, requires two or more conductors. In phone parlance, this is
a "loop". In electrical parlance, this is a power and neutral. Now. The typical
"drop", that is, the cable coming into your house, contains four wires. Enough
for two telephones.

> Now I'm confused. Is my DSL running at higher frequencies, over the same
> (single) wire strand that my voice is running on?

Most (or all) DSL uses higher frequencies than voice and runs on the same wire
pair as your voice connection. I have never heard of a subscriber DSL line that
requires 4 wires, though some other types of digital lines do.

George Patterson
Brute force has an elegance all its own.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Big John wrote:
>
> My explanation is basically correct.

Indeed it is.

George Patterson
Brute force has an elegance all its own.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Russell Kent wrote:
>
> The DSL person may have not used precisely correct terminology.

The DSL person didn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.

George Patterson
Brute force has an elegance all its own.

[David Lesher]

"G.R. Patterson III" > writes:



>Roy Smith wrote:
>>
>> Of course, it doesn't always work that way. I remember something like
>> 10-15 years ago, a major long-distance switch in Manhattan went down.

>I was working for Bell Communications Research at the time. As I recall, it
>was a CEV containing multiplexing and digitizing equipment. A lot of Wall
>Street traffic went through there. It did not have its own backup generators,
>and, as you stated, someone disabled the alarm after it went off. Normally,
>field crews would be sent out with portable generators before shutting the
>alarm off, but someone screwed up.

I believe Roy is referring to the ATT toll tandem and DACS. There
is a very bitter irony to the story. ATT had a deal with ConEd to
"load shed" ie if ConEd got overworked, ATT would go to diesel for
short periods to ease the strain. {Many large customers have similar
deals; they get big price breaks for doing so..}

ConEd called, ATT shed load, and later returned to the grid.
BUT..several of their rectifiers ('battery chargers') on that floor
failed to restart. The trouble was, none of the power people were
there -- as they were all at a training session .... for the new
power failure monitoring system...

By the time a power employee got back and heard the alarm, the
batteries were too near exhausting to recover. It took hours to
bring everything back up, during which all three NYC airports were
down since the DACS [an electronic patch panel for leased circuits]
ran all of FAA's circuits.

One result was a crack in the FTS2000 sole-source contract. This
debacle forced OMB to allow FAA to rent some service from others.


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[David Lesher]

Newps > writes:



>Montblack wrote:


>>
>> Now I'm confused. Is my DSL running at higher frequencies, over the same
>> (single) wire strand that my voice is running on? Or is it running on the
>> second wire strand, in my standard household wire - which contains 2 wire
>> strands? Or is it using both strands?

>It takes two wires to have a voice line. There are typically 4 wires in
>a residential phone line; red, green, yellow and black.

There are 4 wires in older INSIDE WIRING IN YOUR HOUSE. That's
different from the outside plant from the CO to your house.

>Normally the
>first phone number uses the red and green wires. The other two will be
>for your second phone number, should you get one. The DSL uses the same
>two wires as your first phone number, with a filter to keep the two
>things separate.

And if your IW is newer, it's likely 3-4 pair; blue/white & white/blue;
orange/white [etc], greeen/white, & brown/white...

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[G.R. Patterson III]

Martin Hotze wrote:
>
> "G.R. Patterson III" > wrote:
>
> > I have never heard of a subscriber DSL line that
> > requires 4 wires, though some other types of digital lines do.
>
> you can use 2 copper pairs and make that a 4 mbit/s (4.6, to be correct)
> G.HDSL connection (up and down the same). you can bond up to 4 pairs
> together for a 9.6 mbit/s DSL line (or you use 1 pair for up to 8 mbit
> down and up to 1 mbit up).

Correct, but those are not normally considered to be subscriber DSL services.
Those are sold as business services.

George Patterson
Brute force has an elegance all its own.

[Ron Natalie]

"David Lesher" > wrote in message ...

>
> The other possibility is you don't have ADSL but rather its cousin
> SDSL that does not share the loop. It *IS* theoritically possible
> to have ADSL without a phone using the loop, but there are several
> reasons it does not happen -- one is Ma could never grok the paperwork
> to assign a DSLAM port to that pair,

That is the primary stopper right there. It's hard enough to set up line sharing
even when everything is straightforward. I can't imagine trying to convince them
how to do line-sharing on a line which has nothing on it to share. What telephone
number ?

[Russell Kent]

Ron Natalie wrote:

> "David Lesher" > wrote in message ...
>
> >
> > The other possibility is you don't have ADSL but rather its cousin
> > SDSL that does not share the loop. It *IS* theoritically possible
> > to have ADSL without a phone using the loop, but there are several
> > reasons it does not happen -- one is Ma could never grok the paperwork
> > to assign a DSLAM port to that pair,
>
> That is the primary stopper right there. It's hard enough to set up line sharing
> even when everything is straightforward. I can't imagine trying to convince them
> how to do line-sharing on a line which has nothing on it to share. What telephone
> number ?

I'll check the network interface tonight, but I'm pretty sure that there's no filter anywhere
near the house. IIRC, the installer said something about fiber to the pedestal, and hooking
the Y-K pair at the pedestal right to the DSLAM. Several years back a company put fiber in
the neighborhood, then went under, then SBC bought the "cable plant" of the company. I know
that my neighborhood is *VERY* different than other SBC-served DSL areas. In fact, SBC
thinks I'm a "larger business customer", and occasionally tries to bill me the same. We've
gone round-n-round on days when they change my hookup from DHCP to PPPOE. And don't get me
started on the lunacy of the phone dweeb giving me the 1-800 number for LinkSys when I tell
them that the machine connected to the DSL modem is running Linux (say it out loud)...
*sigh*

Russell Kent

[Ron Natalie]

"Russell Kent" > wrote in message ...

> I'll check the network interface tonight, but I'm pretty sure that there's no filter anywhere
> near the house. IIRC, the installer said something about fiber to the pedestal, and hooking
> the Y-K pair at the pedestal right to the DSLAM.

Oh, one of those. You're danged lucky you have DSL at all. The areas around here that
ran fiber to the mushrooms can't get DSL because nobody wants to put the DSLAMs in
the mushrooms. You're right, you're not linesharing.

[David Lesher]

Russell Kent > writes:


>I'll check the network interface tonight, but I'm pretty sure that there's no filter anywhere
>near the house. IIRC, the installer said something about fiber to the pedestal, and hooking
>the Y-K pair at the pedestal right to the DSLAM. Several years back a company put fiber in
>the neighborhood, then went under, then SBC bought the "cable plant" of the company. I know
>that my neighborhood is *VERY* different than other SBC-served DSL areas.

Yep. That's FTTC - Fiber to the Curb. It uses a separate pair from
the curb to your house. (Since it's only the local drop, Assigning
Dept. does not have to track that at all.) That explains what you
are saying. It's not ADSL as the masses get at all. The data feed
to the miniDSLAM of some kind in the pedestal comes up separate
channels from the phone lines of you and your neighbors.

Such may use ADSL for the last 100m. The reason, I suspect, is the
cost of the CPE is so low.

As you observe, it makes little economic sense -- the costs are
sky-high and it still "looks" like ADSL to Jill Winecooler.


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[Russell Kent]

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote:

> Ron Natalie wrote:
> >
> > That is the primary stopper right there. It's hard enough to set up line sharing
> > even when everything is straightforward. I can't imagine trying to convince them
> > how to do line-sharing on a line which has nothing on it to share. What telephone
> > number ?
>
> BellSouth treats this as an order for a special service ("2W DSL") loop. The
> loop is identified by cable and line pair, rather than telephone number. I have
> no idea how it's billed, but I worked on a project for them which helps them set
> up the order.

Well, in my case "how it's billed" is rather touchy. After NUMEROUS iterations (works,
doesn't work, works but you're billing me twice, ...), SBC finally resorted to marking my
residential account as a "major business customer" so that the ninnies would shy away
from touching it (for fear of getting reamed for screwing a big $ customer). Peace ever
since. :-)

Russell Kent

[Dan Foster]

In article >, Roy Smith > wrote:
>
> In addition, central offices and other switching facilities have
> emergency backup generators. As soon as the commercial power goes down,
> the generators are supposed to crank up and keep things going for as
> long as the diesel fuel holds out.

Yup. I used to work in a central office (CO) building until earlier this
year. It was grand! The worst complaint we'd have is a momentary brownout
affecting the computer room power about once a year or so -- we have
certain machines that are ultra-sensitive to brownouts and logs unique
error (but easily identified) messages without loss of functionality
whenever a brownout occurs, so that's how we know.

But other than that, it just... works. In fact, the CO power people runs a
full test of their building (commercial) / UPS (we're talking *industrial*
sized UPS systems, not the kind you buy in stores -- I've seen a power guy
literally hanging off a crowbar with all of his 250 pounds trying to remove
a large electrical circuit for power work in the basement of the CO during
a 1am maintenance!) / cutover strategies.

Usually scheduled as a midnight-4am maintenance window... they spend the
first hour going through the whole building, room by room (I've been there
once or twice when it happens) to make sure all occupants are safely out or
have working emergency gear (eg flashlights) and knows the exact 'escape
route'. I can say that it is *very* different walking around in a
completely dark building even when you know the exact steps by heart! Then
with the flip of a switch, most of the building goes dark. Rooms (eg
computer room, switch room, rooms with MDFs, etc) on the internal UPS power
stays alive. So no interruption in phone or data services. Only
interruption is mostly with lights / computers of offices in building,
which is mostly why they do it off-hours. (The call center is also on the
UPS if I recall.)

They then run whatever individual tests they like. Doesn't take long. By
3am at the latest, they start restoring commercial power to various
circuits in a controlled and staggered fashion. Also, twice a year they run
a smaller scale version of that power cutover test to building UPS power
during a work day and hours, and nobody notices a thing when it *does*
happen (also been there then, too). Not even a flicker.

I've heard of other telcos including a competitor in town doing similar
sorts of full-scale tests every 6 to 12 months. It helps people spot issues
in the procedures, and keeps people current on how to respond.

That's a far cry from many (most?) places in general (non-telco) that may
have alternative sources of power but *don't* regularly actually _verify_
things are still good, before the need pops up for real in an emergency.

I've seen the huge diesel generator in the basement. I think I once heard
that the CO in question was required to ensure they had at least a 14 day
supply in case of serious emergency (which would also include blackouts --
typically due to ice storms, which is a familiar phenomenon in this part of
country).

(Presumably, by the end of 14 day window, there would be a way to ship in
additional diesel fuel, to keep going on... indefinitely -- as long as fuel
delivery can be guaranteed, until commercial power is back. COs are pretty
high on the list of places to get power restored due to public safety
considerations.)

So I don't usually worry about dialtone for landline phones in case of an
emergency. ;) (The system is not perfect, and it *is* indeed possible to
lose that service as experience and human nature / fickle nature of Murphy
has shown us, but on the whole, it's pretty well designed and robust.)

-Dan

(For the big blackout of 2003 affecting the east: I was out at home from
4:11pm until about 11:15pm when my home router came back; I was at work
bringing systems back up carefully once power was restored and didn't get
home until 4:30am with last report written and sent at 6am. That night
sucked! Fire crew came by at work because of flooding in data center due to
sump pumps NOT being on the data center UPS supply and they were afraid of
arcing and other concerns... we quickly had that rewired in record time!)